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Street Fighter V |OTVI| The More I Know, The Worse I Play

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Marvel said:
I'll also add that the MM when it comes to ranks is extremely good, has been for a while now. Rarely fight much higher levels, always around my own.
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my experience is

-leveling to silver

-very next fight is against a Gold

fighting Golds is not rare for me

TheSpoiler said:
That's literally impossible in fighting games unless your game is awfully homogenized. FANG, Gief, and the low tiers of S1 can beat their bad matchups. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility.
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dunno man

they basically buffed Dhalsim and made the MU worse for Gief. and it's not like Dhalsim was broken so it is not a balance thing, but a design problem. they cannot not have known this problem and decided to exacerbate it, just throwing their hands in the air and going 'eeeh bad MU are gonna happen' (like you are doing). instead they fixed another thing Gief had that was broken and gave him tools for the mixups, but mixups was not the Gief problem. the problem is that the tools they gave him to open up opponents does not work on certain members of the cast

my actual fear is that Gief will be too strong for the low levels which will lead to complaints and then a future nerf
 
hey_it's_that_dog said:
What better system could there be? No matter how rank is calculated, the pool of top players will be tiny compared to the pool of average players, by definition. Who should elite players be matched up with?
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At the very least had more people spread accross the ranks. 80%+ of the player base in ultra bronze and below makes no sense. Then people in the top ranks dont had to risk things like random loss to a laggy player 3 ranks below and a massive point loss.

Something more akin tp KI maybe.

Just needs to be spread more even. Then have yours masters that all the awesome peeps are in so they fight higher ranks more often without te rediculous point loss penelty.

Also a system when you can drop down a rank because you lost to someone 2 ranks above also makes no sense logically.
 
Chronospherics said:
I don't think that's true. You honestly don't think some of Gief's matchups couldn't have been better from the outset? Even on paper it's pretty clear that the character was going to have a very hard time in certain situations.
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But that's not how matchups work. I think Gief shouldn't have had so many bad matchups in general, but expecting the matchups to be closer is based around every other characters' individual toolset. It would take a complete reworking of both Gief and the cast to normalize the majority of his matchups, because that's just how matchups work.

That's not the issue. Matchups are used to see how much trouble a character will have. It's up to the game to determine whether or not those are actually winnable or not. If I play Rubber Soul in Jojo, I'm going to have a way harder time than playing Gief against Nash.

Again, this is the nature of basically every fighting game ever. Even VF has matchups between certain characters.

It's easy to say that you can beat your worst matchup but it's a problem when that win requires your opponent to make pretty significant mistakes rather than it being the result of your skill. It can make the gameplay lack a sense of agency, which is less fun. If I win through capitalising on my opponents mistakes I at least want to feel as though I pressured them into making those mistakes but against someone like Guile it doesn't feel like that. I just guessed correctly and he pressed the wrong button at the wrong time, the gameplay is brain dead.
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Capitalizing on the mistakes of your opponent is skill. It's harder to do against someone where your match up is a straight 2. So going by this, if Itabashi's Gief or Stupendous' Gief takes a win off a Guile, it's because they made a mistake and not because they are skilled? What?

You can also make the skill ceiling and skill floor so high that player skill will always sooner be the differentiating factor rather than character qualities. That's the alternative to homogeneity, and that's what we saw in SFIV, where top players would compensate matchup weaknesses with very advanced and complex playstyles.
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What SF4 were you watching? People countered picked. Everyone played the same Elena, the same E. Ryu, etc, because that game focused on optimal playstyles. Matchups in that game were far, far worse than anything SFV has had bar none.

ElFly said:
they basically buffed Dhalsim and made the MU worse for Gief. and it's not like Dhalsim was broken so it is not a balance thing, but a design problem
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What other fighters don't have an issue between MUs? Or have characters where their MUs are straight 5-5s? But I guess I can see it being a design problem because you have characters that can keep Gief out all day, and that's just how they are made. But I stand by the point that you don't win bad matchups because someone makes a mistake, it's because you were more skilled than the person. If said game is balanced.
 
ElFly said:
my experience is

-leveling to silver

-very next fight is against a Gold

fighting Golds is not rare for me
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I'm super gold and I've been running into many super and ultra silvers recently, which i guess is a good sign it means the game is getting some newcomers.
 
Learning akuma. Matched up against gief. Holy shit what do i do lol.

Also the time your learning a charcter, do everything fine in training. Real match starts. How do i play again...
 
I think maybe I'm misreading things so maybe I'll make myself clearer.

Gief and Sim being a bad matchup is a product of bad design due to the characters and how they are built. That's fair to say. It's a problem that's existed in just about every single fighting game besides ones where the toolsets aren't different from each other between the characters (and I mean, like slight variants).

That, however, doesn't mean it's unwinnable, nor does it mean that if you do win, it's based on luck. Xian doesn't win because he lucked out and got 9th place. Dude won because he straight up outplayed the other person. SFV, Tekken, VF, etc, work out because you can overcome bad matchups with skill. Otherwise pro players would have just given up on notably terrible characters full stop, because why chance even a minor tournament with "luck"?

On the flipside of things, bring back Gief's green hand pls.

OmegaTreeFish said:
Learning akuma. Matched up against gief. Holy shit what do i do lol.

Also the time your learning a charcter, do everything fine in training. Real match starts. How do i play again...
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I hope you like not jumping, because don't jump.
 
OmegaTreeFish said:
Learning akuma. Matched up against gief. Holy shit what do i do lol.

Also the time your learning a charcter, do everything fine in training. Real match starts. How do i play again...
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do not jump except to cross up. learn your v-skill and use it to defeat Gief's pressure. no land fireballs either, Gief can headbutt them from afar and Lariat them from close (tho obviously from afar he cannot headbutt the triple fireball but why waste time on that? he will jump over and approach if he sees the animation)

once in V-Trigger air fireballs aren't that bad against Gief but it is still risky

TheSpoiler said:
I think maybe I'm misreading things so maybe I'll make myself clearer.

Gief and Sim being a bad matchup is a product of bad design due to the characters and how they are built. That's fair to say. It's a problem that's existed in just about every single fighting game besides ones where the toolsets aren't different from each other between the characters (and I mean, like slight variants).

That, however, doesn't mean it's unwinnable, nor does it mean that if you do win, it's based on luck. Xian doesn't win because he lucked out and got 9th place. Dude won because he straight up outplayed the other person. SFV, Tekken, VF, etc, work out because you can overcome bad matchups with skill. Otherwise pro players would have just given up on notably terrible characters full stop, because why chance even a minor tournament with "luck"?

On the flipside of things, bring back Gief's green hand pls.
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I think Gief can be fixed if his V-Skill knocks down. that way he can use it to hit Dhalsim with it AND approach. right now using Iron Muscle against Dhalsim is not good cause he can recover and keep pressuring you

it'd change how Iron Muscle is used tho. nowadays we go for Iron Muscle -> combo, or IM -> SPD or ideally IM -> CA. now we'd have to go for IM -> Mixup. It could be a nerf for the other MUs. Of course it could always be a Dhalsim specific thing, or it could be like Akuma, where it has two versions, and one knocks down

I don't think it is unwinnable, it is clearly no 10-0. But in practice it is not a good idea to try to win that fight instead of just counter counter picking. problem is in a tournament by that point you may already lost a match if you discover your opponent plays a character with a bad MU for you, and he may counterpick your counterpick. it makes characters way less viable. and at least in S1 Gief had other really bad MUs with common people, like Nash, just not as bad as Sim
 
TheSpoiler said:
That's literally impossible in fighting games unless your game is awfully homogenized. FANG, Gief, and the low tiers of S1 can beat their bad matchups. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility.
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Im pretty sure you dont have lopsided MU's in a lot of 3D fighters.
 
HardRojo said:
Every. Fucking. Time. It's like I forget what my fightstick is lol.
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This is when playing the CPU becomes handy

Edit: Beaten

mnz said:
Play the CPU on a low setting to practice on a moving target. Helps a lot.
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Id say at the highest setting because it emulates the feeling of being in a tense situation more accurately than a low setting CPU that will take anything you throw at them
 
ElFly said:
I think Gief can be fixed if his V-Skill knocks down. that way he can use it to hit Dhalsim with it AND approach. right using Iron Muscle against Dhalsim is idiotic cause he can recover and keep pressuring you

it'd change how Iron Muscle is used tho. nowadays we go for Iron Muscle -> combo, or IM -> SPD or ideally IM -> CA. now we'd have to go for IM -> Mixup. It could be a nerf for the other MUs. Of course it could always be a Dhalsim specific thing, or it could be like Akuma, where it has two versions, and one knocks down
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A character specific thing sounds iffy, but two versions both with different usages would probably work out better.

At least Gief players get to style on Akumas for free.

Onemic said:
Im pretty sure you dont have lopsided MU's in a lot of 3D fighters.
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Tekken for sure has 3-7 matchups, and I bet the bears would disagree with you on that.

Onemic said:
Id say at the highest setting because it emulates the feeling of being in a tense situation more accurately than a low setting CPU that will take anything you throw at them
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But the AI straight up blocks shit that it shouldn't and playing footies or practicing how to get in with said combo isn't applicable to the real match. Like, you have to be wary you don't pick up bad habits from throwing down with the CPU.
 
I usually practice against the PC at whichever level it feels like it is active and competent, but it doesn't have superhuman reflexes. Practicing against max level AI usually leads to cheese tactics and the formulation of bad habits.
 
Onemic said:
Id say at the highest setting because it emulates the feeling of being in a tense situation more accurately than a low setting CPU that will take anything you throw at them
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Nah, because the CPU is stupid at higher settings, it's not really the same game anymore.
 
Max level AI sometimes has super human reactions similar to tool assisted. Conversely they can also go down to scrubby anti-AI tactics that won't work against a real human. It's not good practice.
 
Ucchedavāda;227366294 said:
FUUUUUU, I'm Ultra Silver now and the game keeps matching me up with silvers at best. I am a complete fraud :(
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This sunday I went from Ultra Bronze, to mid Silver, back down to Ultra Bronze, and am currently sitting 100 points into Silver. It's been a rollercoaster lol. Will try again to make it to Ultra Silver over these next few days.
 
As an ultra bronze shitter, I keep getting paired up with ultra slivers and some golds.

Somehow I'm able to take some Ws.

I need to stay in ranked more.
 
Hellshingu said:
I saw a couple sets of him last night playing Akuma and was kinda shocked. Wonder if he finally got tired of Gief/Alex getting rekt by Capcom balancing.
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I wonder how many Akumas are we going to see in the next tournament.

When's the next tournament, anyway?

TheSpoiler said:
As an ultra bronze shitter, I keep getting paired up with ultra slivers and some golds.

Somehow I'm able to take some Ws.

I need to stay in ranked more.
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That's the best. If you lose you lose like 5 points, if you win you get hundreds. Mika made this happen a few times for me ahuhauha.
 
Is there a list of GAF players outside of those top tier players in the OP? If not do you all think it would be worth making one? I was thinking it would be nice to have a Google doc with GAF name, cfn, rank and main(S) so you could easily find people around your level and with matchups you wanna work on.

If there's interest I could start one up (if it doesn't already exist).
 
TheSpoiler said:
But the AI straight up blocks shit that it shouldn't and playing footies or practicing how to get in with said combo isn't applicable to the real match. Like, you have to be wary you don't pick up bad habits from throwing down with the CPU.
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Nah, playing the CPU is good for building execution, so that when you're in a casual match and actually wanna practice your shit you can, instead of constantly thinking about when and what to do.

The point of playing the CPU isnt to improve your footsies or anything like that, it's to get your execution up to a point where you can feel more confident in doing things when you play a human opponent. That's why in my mind, playing a max level CPU works better than playing a low level CPU because the execution needed to do what you wanna do (AA, knockdown setup, a given combo, etc.) is harder because you know if you fuckup the CPU will punish you for it.
 
New002 said:
Is there a list of GAF players outside of those top tier players in the OP? If not do you all think it would be worth making one? I was thinking it would be nice to have a Google doc with GAF name, cfn, rank and main(S) so you could easily find people around your level and with matchups you wanna work on.

If there's interest I could start one up (if it doesn't already exist).
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There was a google doc, back in OT1 or 2, dunno what happened to it.
 
I'm not even sure how this could have happened, but I bought the season 2 pass a few days ago, been using Akuma every so often, but somehow last night he was not available, and the shopping cart appeared ever so briefly.

I must've tapped a button too trying to back out, because 100k fight money is gone. Can..you even buy a character...twice? After you have the Pass?
 
jett said:
I wonder how many Akumas are we going to see in the next tournament.

When's the next tournament, anyway?



That's the best. If you lose you lose like 5 points, if you win you get hundreds. Mika made this happen a few times for me ahuhauha.
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Next ranking tournament for CPT is Cannes and that won't be until Feb 24-26.

Final Round is the first CPT Premier and that is March 10-12.
 
katsubento said:
I'm not even sure how this could have happened, but I bought the season 2 pass a few days ago, been using Akuma every so often, but somehow last night he was not available, and the shopping cart appeared ever so briefly.

I must've tapped a button too trying to back out, because 100k fight money is gone. Can..you even buy a character...twice? After you have the Pass?
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no you can't, weird stuff.
 
New002 said:
Is there a list of GAF players outside of those top tier players in the OP? If not do you all think it would be worth making one? I was thinking it would be nice to have a Google doc with GAF name, cfn, rank and main(S) so you could easily find people around your level and with matchups you wanna work on.

If there's interest I could start one up (if it doesn't already exist).
Click to expand...

You can start it if you want i guess it would be a good idea.
 
Kashiwaba said:
You can start it if you want i guess it would be a good idea.
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Please, contain your excitement! ;)

But for real I think I may just go ahead and start one up. If anyone wants to PM me their CFN, rank and main(S) feel free.

I also considered just starting it and making it publicly editable so people could hop in there and enter their ranks and mains and adjust on the fly, but I'm worried about some random person on the internet messing with it.

What do you all think?
 
Just noticed Alex gets cold in the Christmas stage and tries warming himself up lol. Capcom putting the little details in there, but can't put options for Player 2 in versus mode yet nor save Training mode settings...
 
sixteen-bit said:
Max level AI sometimes has super human reactions similar to tool assisted. Conversely they can also go down to scrubby anti-AI tactics that won't work against a real human. It's not good practice.
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It's good practice in terms of learning defence and counterattacking opportunities but I agree it's not great for practicing offence other than basic combo execution and hit confirms.
 
HardRojo said:
Just noticed Alex gets cold in the Christmas stage and tries warming himself up lol. Capcom putting the little details in there, but can't put options for Player 2 in versus mode yet nor save Training mode settings...
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Those things aren't equal though, putting npcs in a stage means they'll have to be animated anyway.
 
HardRojo said:
I was half kidding, but I really want those options :( Them not being part of the 2.0 update makes me worry they might be implemented at all during the game's lifespan.
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And risk ending the display of exuberant thumbs ups at tournaments? Hell no.

fr9zl328rm2y.gif
 
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