They could have easily given the Alolan variants their own dex numbers (and some their own name like Snowshrew instead of Sandshrew when it's no longer a ground type) but they didn't. That's more points in favor of GF not considering them new Pokemon.
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Pokémon Sun & Moon | Info and speculation thread
- Thread starter Galava
- Start date
They could have easily given the Alolan variants their own dex numbers (and some their own name like Snowshrew instead of Sandshrew when it's no longer a ground type) but they didn't. That's more points in favor of GF not considering them new Pokemon.
And, again, why should they need to have given them dex numbers to consider them new Pokemon when could just as easily consider them new Pokemon without adding on to the pokedex?
Because they've given every other new Pokemon a dex number. What's more likely? A) They don;t consider Alolan Pokemon to be new Pokemon and thus didn't give them their own dex number or B) They just said fuck it and decided not to give them a dex number despite them being new Pokemon?
I'd say B is just as likely as A
Zen_Arcade
Banned
What possible logic would you have in thinking they're equally likely?
The second option is literally a random lack of consistency and logic to something they've kept consistent for years.
Exterminieren
Banned
Just to stir the pot a little- do we know that the Alolan forms don't have different Dex numbers to the originals?
That it is not necessary to give something a dex number to acknowledge as a new Pokemon? I mean it's not hard to understand.
Maybe, just maybe, dex number doesn't matter anywhere near as much as you think it does.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Yes it is. Especially when for years that was the exact logic in place.
Shadow Broker
Banned
They get different dex entry without inflating the dex number.
I consider Mega and Alolan forms new. You have a different opinion.
If Alolan forms are not "new" Pokémon then show where can I play with a Ice Fairy Fox in a previous game.
They're clearly deferent enough to be new Pokémon but not new in the sense since it's based on a older Pokémon.
What I would like is for GameFreak to put sub pages in the Pokédex to show that they are new Pokémon but just a sub species.
Geminosity
Member
Heh, as strongly as I may come across about it, I don't REALLY have any strong negative feelings about Delphox as a pokemon itself. Much like Dragonite, most of my complaints originate entirely from it capping off an evo line I'd found otherwise quite promising: if the two poor pokes in question had been their own single stage pokemon of their own I'd likely pay them no heed at all :3
I should probably avoid deflecting Braixen hate by joking about Delphox, though I do still admit that it's a very unsatisfying end to the 3 stages of the Fenniken line for me. A regional delphox that feels more in-tune with the witch/magical girl thing of braixen would be nice as it means we can have the best of both worlds: those who like original Delphox get to keep it, while those dissapointed with it get an alternative in the regional. Same for Dragonite
Not going to happen with alola, but hopefully the regional thing sticks around for future titles and the gens beyond 1 get some love.
That would be the easiest compromise. Either way, I maintain that they are new Pokemon.
In regards to the bolded: Why would they want to keep the total dex number down? For a series all about catching Pokemon that makes absolutely no sense.
GiantBreadbug
Member
I mean it's literally a distinction of nomenclature.
Alolan forms cannot obviously be "new Pokemon" altogether. They are evolved from known species. They're a derivation.
But they are "new" in the sense that they are literally not the same as their known counterparts. They have new types, new abilities, and probably new allocations for stats.
So they are and they aren't. No, they aren't NEW new, as in a totally new species. But they're new subspecies.
Yeah I do have to say there is just NO evidence for them wanting to do that. AT all. I've said that several times but I think we should all stop saying it like it's something that actually exists. I know what Gridlock was trying to say and there is merit to adding to the Pokemon roster's variety and depth without adding totally new Pokemon. That's basically why I've said I love the regional variants so much.
Alolan forms cannot obviously be "new Pokemon" altogether. They are evolved from known species. They're a derivation.
But they are "new" in the sense that they are literally not the same as their known counterparts. They have new types, new abilities, and probably new allocations for stats.
So they are and they aren't. No, they aren't NEW new, as in a totally new species. But they're new subspecies.
Yeah I do have to say there is just NO evidence for them wanting to do that. AT all. I've said that several times but I think we should all stop saying it like it's something that actually exists. I know what Gridlock was trying to say and there is merit to adding to the Pokemon roster's variety and depth without adding totally new Pokemon. That's basically why I've said I love the regional variants so much.
Because it's not just about catching them. Breeding them, raising, battling with them, going on adventures with them, etc. are all just important as catching them.
Zomba13
Member
I don't see what is so hard about new 'mon, new Dex number. The only times a "new Pokémon" hasn't had a new dex number has been when it's a Mega Evolution or a form, Mega Evolutions are just super powered whatever so while they look different and may have different types or abilities, are still the same Pokémon (Mega Charizard Y is still just a Charizard, it's just a Mega Evolution, a form that needs an item). The different looking Wormadam aren't different Pokémon, they are just different forms.
Alolan forms are the same, just forms, not new Pokémon. Now, they may as well be with their different typings, assumed different moves and different designs but they aren't. They could totally say an Alolan Ninetails is a Nicetails and give it a new number but they don't. They've decided "nah, it's just a cold Ninetails". It's not us that are saying they aren't new Pokémon, it's GameFreak and TPC. They've referred to them as Alolan Forms, not New Pokémon, they've decided they share the dex number with the old form, they've decided to treat them just like they treat other forms of other Pokémon we've had for generations.
But from a marketing perspective why the hell would you not advertise as something like "100 new Pokémon!!!", why lower the number yourself by not counting these remixes of old designs?
Alolan forms are the same, just forms, not new Pokémon. Now, they may as well be with their different typings, assumed different moves and different designs but they aren't. They could totally say an Alolan Ninetails is a Nicetails and give it a new number but they don't. They've decided "nah, it's just a cold Ninetails". It's not us that are saying they aren't new Pokémon, it's GameFreak and TPC. They've referred to them as Alolan Forms, not New Pokémon, they've decided they share the dex number with the old form, they've decided to treat them just like they treat other forms of other Pokémon we've had for generations.
But from a marketing perspective why the hell would you not advertise as something like "100 new Pokémon!!!", why lower the number yourself by not counting these remixes of old designs?
They're both.
From a lore perspective, they're not new - they all originated as a pre-existing Pokemon, and just adapted to their new environment based on circumstantial factors.
From a mechanics perspective, they are new - different types, abilities, moves, and stats.
From a design perspective, they're in the middle - pre-existing 'mons as a template, with new colors and flourishes to make them clearly distinguishable from their original counterparts.
From a lore perspective, they're not new - they all originated as a pre-existing Pokemon, and just adapted to their new environment based on circumstantial factors.
From a mechanics perspective, they are new - different types, abilities, moves, and stats.
From a design perspective, they're in the middle - pre-existing 'mons as a template, with new colors and flourishes to make them clearly distinguishable from their original counterparts.
GiantBreadbug
Member
Yeah and some people play this game a lot so they need a lot of pokemon with which to do that man (me). I've caught/bred/raised/battled with nearly every existing Pokemon that I want to.
Also there being more total Pokemon doesn't affect one's ability to do that. You can just continue ignoring the Pokemon you don't want to play with and raise the ones you do.
They are the same literally only in name. They are different enough to be new Pokemon, and they do not need something as superficial as a dex number to be acknowledged as such. Did they advertise the number of new Pokemon in Gold and Silver? Ruby and Sapphire? Diamond and Pearl? Black and White? X and Y? They've never been as fixated on the number as any of us have, why do they need to start now?
When exactly did I say anything about them needing to quell the number of new Pokemon?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Exact number? Probably not, but they clearly advertise there being a bunch of brand new Pokemon.
Shadow Broker
Banned
To make a bigger deal as they past mile stones?
I'm not a business person at all but even I see the Marketing potential with their "1,000th" Pokémon! If they inflate it and rush to keep getting bigger and bigger those big mile stones won't mean as much.
That's the only explanation I can think of. It's all about catching them all while making big enough of a profit to be around for 20 more years.
JStein0222
Member
I'm confused about the new vs same pokemon debate. Like, does it make a practical difference? There isn't any label that declares a pokemom old or new, but if there was, it still wouldn't change anything.
Why fight about rhetoric?
Why fight about rhetoric?
Yeah, but the number has never been a big deal to them. That's all I was saying.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
No, but if they can advertise a larger number they will. The back of the Gold/Silver box said "Dozens of new Pokemon" whereas Ruby/Sapphire said "Over 100 new Pokemon".
What if it isn't a water type?
Zomba13
Member
For the longest time the slogan was "gotta catch 'em all" and the anime, one of the biggest vehicles for advertisement, had a rap about how many there were and how you need to get them all. The amount of Pokémon has always been a big thing with the games. Each gen adding new ones, advertising the new ones etc. While the game isn't really about numbers it is about completing a Pokédex and getting all the ones in the region and then working on getting all of them. I just find it weird that the creators of the game have decided not to give these "new Pokémon" unique numbers and names and bloat the numbers to make the game appear bigger.
Yeah, they might as well be new pokémon. I've already said as much. But they aren't. They are a form, like the different forms of Wormadam, the different forms of the new dancing bird, the different forms of Deoxys, the different forms or Shaymin etc. Even though they offer new moves and new ways to use them in battle and new designs they aren't new pokémon. They may as well be, but they aren't.
That implies that they feel the need internally to bloat the numbers. Even if you're just going with the blanket"catch em all" thing, are the Alolan forms somehow not part of the "all" in these games? You can't catch their normal forms in Alola, and you won't be able to transfer until January. I dunno, I just think that Alolan forms can very easily be considered new Pokemon without being locked down to new dex numbers.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Yea, I could see it being pure Psychic type pretty easily.
Because it's far more interesting than using an older Pokemon for the nth time.
Geminosity
Member
I wonder what pokes we'll be able to find and play with within the confines of the demo
I'm assuming we might at least be able to see evo 2 for starters?
Will the level cap be high enough to check out steenee? Will we even find any bounsweet? XD
So many questions
JPBrowncoat
Member
I just read that the ORAS demo came out at midnight which means the japanese demo could come out at 10am eastern time tomorrow. Demo hype!
I wonder what pokes we'll be able to find and play with within the confines of the demo
I'm assuming we might at least be able to see evo 2 for starters?
Will the level cap be high enough to check out steenee? Will we even find any bounsweet? XD
So many questions
We'll most likely start with only Greninja and be unable to catch anything. At most we might see the first evo of Pikipek as a wild encounter. Y'know revealing a Pokemon via the demo would be really freaking awesome.
JPBrowncoat
Member
So would the Greninja be shiny locked?
Geminosity
Member
Ew. I know some people love ninja-froggy but if that was the demo I'd probably just not bother downloading it :s
Fair point though, based on how glaile and stuff went in the last demo we'll probably come across the frog during the demo if we don't start with it.
Yeah I'm guessing we'll be locked to Ash Greninja only, though that's weird that they'll use what is essentially a last-gen starter to promote the new games maybe (hopefully!) we'll get to use some new mons as well. I won't be disappointed either way, but obviously the more content the better
maybe (hopefully!) we'll get to use some new mons as well. I won't be disappointed either way, but obviously the more content the better Serpens007
Member
I now wonder if scientist have these same arguments everytime they discover a new subspecies of an animal
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
RE: Pokemon design, it's really mindboggling on how people could see Braixen or Brionne as "pandering" or "sexual". Then again I've noticed the same posters doing the same descriptors on similar things that they'd probably not only say Arale is a pandering lolicon, they'd think K-On! cast and DoReMi cast are sexual fetishes too. It's disgusting.
RE: Dex number. Alolan forms aren't anything new to something they've done. I've already mentioned some of them. Maybe they'd be given a new place on the dex but they'd most likely just occupy a form slot.
"But people fap on it online!" Well yeah welcome to the internet, where the internet itself has rule 34.
You know what's hilarious is that they'd avatar quote me or something, probably thinking people who fap to girly things also fap to muscley things lol
Unlike Pokemon real life taxonomy is pretty much assured. At most, the arguments they'll have tend to be on misplacing old animals that weren't analyzed properly.
RE: Dex number. Alolan forms aren't anything new to something they've done. I've already mentioned some of them. Maybe they'd be given a new place on the dex but they'd most likely just occupy a form slot.
"But people fap on it online!" Well yeah welcome to the internet, where the internet itself has rule 34.
You know what's hilarious is that they'd avatar quote me or something, probably thinking people who fap to girly things also fap to muscley things lol
Unlike Pokemon real life taxonomy is pretty much assured. At most, the arguments they'll have tend to be on misplacing old animals that weren't analyzed properly.
They do and we do a lot of phylogenetic studies to reorganize clades. There can be a lot of debates and upsets when something is reclassified. Results can be dependent on the type of data you work with, e.g. morphological, mtDNA, or nDNA, and how much data you collected, e.g. sequencing 1 locus or 500. There are also various philosophical species concepts and debates about what should and should not be considered a species.
GiantBreadbug
Member
1) They absolutely advertise the new Pokémon as one of the reasons to play the game (and it's why they're so eager to show so many for Sun and Moon). Heck, in some of the Black and White marketing material I know there was a "more than 150 new Pokémon!" bit. So yeah
2) You didn't; I'm just giving the reasoning why someone would disagree that "cutting back" is something the developers are clearly doing.
Considering we just discovered there are four subspecies of giraffes with little fanfare or criticism of the study that found it, coupled with how many species and subspecies of, say, dogs exist, to say nothing of hybrids like the beefalo (yes, really) and other factors i'm sure i'm forgetting, I think real-life scientists are a little less interested in raising a fuss over a new ant species being added to the millions that already exist.
Also, most scientists can tell if you're a boy or a girl.
Pretty much. I try to go with a new team on my first playthrough before I decide to fall back on personal favorite lines (Feraligatr, Tyranitar, , etc.) since it's a lot more refreshing to see what these new Pokémon have to offer in terms of abilities and team strategies in singles and doubles
before discovering how badly i'm misusing X Pokemon with Y moves because of the competitive scene, egg moves, EVs and IVs and so on.
If you're an entomologist who specializes in ants this is a bigger deal than you make it to be.
I didn't say they don't advertise the new Pokemon. Of course they do, it'd be silly (and factually wrong) to say they don't. I just don't remember them ever making a big deal out of the actual number like so many people here do. Not that I don't believe, I'd just like to see some examples because I can't recall ever seeing any ads that were all about the number of new Pokemon.
I don't think that they're cutting back or are deliberately trying to cut back, probably just not making it a point to pump the numbers.
Geminosity
Member
Yeah, the thing is I don't mind people not liking stuff, everyone has their own tastes, but when someone tries to paint something they don't like as only being for sexual deviants or some crud like that I get irked.
I feel like it says more about the accusers when they assume that people who like stuff like Braixen and Brionne are both male and only interested in them for sexual reasons, than it says about the people they think they're accusing.
For all the shouting and pushing for more female/feminine characters, companies receive so much crud from these brainless puritanical witch-hunts when they finally do I'm often frightened they'll just decide it's not worth the hassle.
It annoys me too how they'll be all "oh it's only appealing to creeps" or some crud like that but when someone like me pipes up that not only are there female players who like cute stuff like these but there are probably guys out there who like cute stuff too without any sexual aspect required, I usually get flat out ignored because it's inconvenient to their warped little narrative. I just wish they'd stop blaming innocent people and designs for the messed up crap they're projecting: I'm genuinely sick of it.
Geminosity
Member
Apologies. I've got that out of my system now so you don't have to worry about a repeat
Just curious but did anyone post about the music that's apparently been mined from the demo? The12thGripper apparently found UB-02 Expansion's battle theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TzOzYPs0_k
edit: I'm an idiot and this is fake: it's just zinogre's theme from monster hunter -.-
Apologies. I've got that out of my system now so you don't have to worry about a repeat
Just curious but did anyone post about the music that's apparently been mined from the demo? The12thGripper apparently found UB-02 Expansion's battle theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TzOzYPs0_k
This is literally a remix of Zinogre's theme from Monster Hunter, lol.