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Miyamoto: In mainline Zeldas, Link will always be the hero, will consider S spin-offs

Did you finish Oot?

Shiek is Zelda in disguise, of course people will talk about Sheik in male pronouns to not out her.

You think she grows dick and balls everytime instead of just cross dessing? In case Ganon peeks in her tights?

Yes, I did, three times. Where in the world do you assume I said that, please tell me because I never implied that. I said, Sheik is Zelda's male alter ego. Zelda is female, yes, but Sheik, as a persona, is male. Nowhere did I say she's using magic to transform into a man like some fans think.

Übermatik;208468678 said:
Yo where's your avatar from?

It's my own creation, a retextured Hyrule Warriors Link model in Source Filmmaker that I spent days doing, along with some lines of coding to give it a cel shading look.
 
Yes, I did, three times. Where in the world do you assume I said that, please tell me because I never implied that. I said, Sheik is Zelda's male alter ego. Zelda is female, yes, but Sheik, as a persona, is male. Nowhere did I say she's using magic to transform into a man like some fans think.

Yo where's your avatar from?
 
Yes, I did, three times. Where in the world do you assume I said that, please tell me because I never implied that. I said, Sheik is Zelda's male alter ego. Zelda is female, yes, but Sheik, as a persona, is male. Nowhere did I say she's using magic to transform into a man like some fans think.

Oh ok sorry, I thought you meant Shiek was male, which would ridiculous, because it's just Zelda in a costume.
 
I'm actually surprised people are so dismissive of gender as a character trait. While gender doesn't define you, it'll give you a different perspective based on the cultural norms associated to each gender. Sadly this is based on our heavily patriarchal society that has women in positions of oppression and activism.

Gender isn't an internal characteristic, but it's put forward and the response to it is later internalized. Nobody should be shocked that Nintendo adheres to the damsel in distress trope, as it in the most destilled way, tells a story of two loved ones reuniting that has universal appeal. Women are obviously handed the short end of the stick by having a representation that leaves them in passive roles (not necessarily weak), and it reproduces gender reality in a way most of us would like it to go in the opposite direction.

Could the damsel in distress trope work by changing any of the characters gender, be a captured lord, a female hero or both? Absolutely. But I'm not as convinced that the viewer assimilation and interpretation of the text is the same because it's being read by a specific cultural paradigm. I would like stuff like these happen in numerous media and titles, both subverting franchises and by being progressive with new creations, since the positive message it entails is very important. But Nintendo both as a conservative company, but more importantly, as a minimalist company, attributes a lot of value to the universal understanding of gender roles to visually transmit information of the situation.

I'm dissapointed Nintendo isn't more progressive about these matters, but I'm not getting upset because a Japanese company isn't riding the progressive wave western countries are having. I'm not getting upset at ridiculous interview answers either as they are left hook questions that are translated. I will get upset if they send out a press release that contained such contrived reasons because that would reflect on the company as a whole as structurally regressive.

Pretty well said, even though I land on the other side of the argument.

Let's see some more Nintendo young blood in Zelda who REALLY aren't afraid to shake things up.
 
Well, sure, you can. There is no reason for example why ALTTP Zelda couldn't go adventuring, for example.

I was just pointing out there is no sexist conspiracy to why people often think of Sheik.

Have they mentioned possible Zelda-led spinoffs before?

I don't think there's a "sexist conspiracy" surrounding fans who want a Sheik game, but it being the only girl character spinoff mentioned by Miyamoto or Aonuma in the past (that I've seen) suggests they don't consider making a Zelda game. Coupled with the outright confirmation that don't want Zelda in the lead role because Link is the only one who can be in the adventurer role, it sounds like they don't consider Zelda adventurer material. It's real hard to not see some regressive reasoning going on there in regard to gender roles, whether that counts as a sexist conspiracy aside.

The Sheik spinoff could be a general Sheikah tribe game though, and Impa could be playable.


Did you finish Oot?

Shiek is Zelda in disguise, of course people will talk about Sheik in male pronouns to not out her.

You think she grows dick and balls everytime instead of just cross dessing? In case Ganon peeks in her tights?
I think the matter for some is that the only spinoff (that I've seen) been mentioned by the creators is the Sheik one, the one time Zelda has been disguised as a dude. Coupled with the "Zelda can't star in TLoZ series," stuff, it suggests that they don't see Zelda as viable for a lead role.
 
I saw her as being androgynous

Does it actually say male or are you making that up

Besides "he/him" statements pointed out, if you played the game in 1998, before Melee and Internet communities, there was no clue whatsoever that Sheik was Zelda and a woman in disguise. At best, one could surmise it was a male counterpart of Impa's (who is clearly a female Sheikah). My friends and I who had the game at launch were all fooled.

What about Sheik in SSB: Brawl compared to Sheik in SSB4?

I'm not familiar with Brawl. Never even unlocked most of the characters as I wasn't grabbed like whenI got SSB, Melee and 4! Was there a big change in Sheik between the two games?
 
I think the matter for some is that the only spinoff (that I've seen) been mentioned by the creators is the Sheik one, the one time Zelda has been disguised as a dude. Coupled with the "Zelda can't star in TLoZ series," stuff, it suggests that they don't see Zelda as viable for a lead role.

It's a shame they inhereted such shit story limtations, if only they could hire creative people that could find a way to make it work.
 
It's a shame they inhereted such shit story limtations, if only they could hire creative people that could find a way to make it work.

It can't be hard, surely. Zelda can be in a similar position Link is in The Breath of the Wild, a ruined decay of Hyrule where it seems the Royal Family is likely disbanded and Hyrule is without a ruler because of Ganon's destruction and influence. It could be a simple story about a young peasant woman named Zelda, whose grandparents are secretly the former royal family, finally having enough and goes off in an adventure to reclaim the Kingdom from the forces of darkness and evil instead of waiting for a hero to do it. Why is this hard? If a child can save Hyrule, which has happened multiple times, so could a grown woman.

At this point, they're basically being this guy:

Gwonam_Prophecy.png
"It is written, only Link can defeat Ganon."
 
Eh, Miyamoto is old. Aonuma isn't quite as old, but is still kinda old. Should the series persist, it'll happen in the future, regardless of their current stance. I'd like to see them stop it happening from the grave. O:
 
Other M was kind of bad and before then she could've been a man with no difference in the story, probably less than Mario and Link (no romantic or motherly aspects). IIRC, she was a man in the original Japanese release, or at least not specified to be a woman.
As for Wonder Woman, it was dumb to make a gender swap for the sake of making a gender swap. That being dumb doesn't make the idea of FemLink more appealing (probably less so)
Eh, Miyamoto is old. Aonuma isn't quite as old, but is still kinda old. Should the series persist, it'll happen in the future, regardless of their current stance. I'd like to see them stop it happening from the grave. O:
Are you prematurely rejoicing over the death of the creators of the franchise because you think they're just "behind the times" for not making a gender swap? That's kind of messed up
 
IMO it is a non-issue. Miyamoto invented goddamn Zelda and he can decide creatively how he wants it to be. If he wants a male Link to always be the hero, that's his choice. No problem. It's his creation.
 
Gonna throw my hat in the ring with this: Sheik is not only not enough, but it's also partially insulting. Sheik as a character is a woman disguised as a man to hide from Ganondorf, that's what they were designed as, and since 1998 there's been a debate whether Sheik is male or female as the alter ego Zelda created was male to hide her real identity. If we're going to consider a female protagonist for a Zelda game, why not Zelda herself? Why go for the male alter ego she created for herself? "Because what would Link do?"



Then tell Aonuma to stop tip toeing around the issue. He constantly talks about Link as a connection to the player, and saying things like, " Link's relationship with the player would be ruined if he talks", as if the very act of Link talking for himself is a bad thing.

If they do a similar thing as they did with Smash bros, Sheik will be obviously female. I would expect it to be more similar to how Samus is handled with or without her suit.

As for why "Princess Zelda" doesn't fight, that is the same question I have.

Link is definitely a character, but some of his characteristics are intentionally undefined because it is up to the player's interpretation. He is a hybrid. Nintendo wants to keep Link's speaking voice up to the imagination of the player because a lot of someone's personality can be determined with the way someone talks ( for example: sarcasm, assertive, soft-spoken, etc). I believe it is that simple.
 
every single zelda game could have link be a lady with no difference to the story

literally this is completely true

my proof: there is no moment where link takes a moment to scratch his balls with a look of peace on his face and every dude agrees with me how good that can feel when you got itchy balls

and that's just ONE element of link not acknowledging the presence of his balls!

let's not even bring up the penis, that's a whole other can of worms

Are you prematurely rejoicing over the death of the creators of the franchise because you think they're just "behind the times" for not making a gender swap? That's kind of messed up

That is a very morbid and opposite-of-generous interpretation of what I said, but I suppose that is your prerogative.

But to clarify for you, no, there is literally no implication of joy in my post, it's interesting that you saw it that way, but hell no.

I also do not care strongly one way or the other whether or not Link is a Lady. But I for damn sure am capable of acknowledging that there's no reason he should remain exclusively male.
 
"People don't like change"

No, people don't like change for the sake of change just to appease a minority.

Yeah last night when I went to bed.

And joke character? Christ, I'm not the one who's on the side of insanity here.

Because it does not matter. It's an absolutely pointless argument.

Link is male. He will stay that way. Nintendo have confirmed this. Please, end the madness and desperation.

I'm curious as to what the reactions of some people here were to the Tomodachi Life controversy regarding same sex marriage. According to the logic of statements like the above, all of us gay people were mentally ill for simply asking Nintendo to change their "creative vision" for the game to a more inclusive one. Nintendo initially gave a really lousy response to the request for inclusiveness in that game, and they were rightly called out for it, as they are here.

Inclusion only happens when people ask for it. It has NEVER happened just because the dominant demographic in society "finally felt like it." Nintendo apologized after the above controversy and promised to do better in the future, and they eventually did so with Fire Emblem. That happened because people asked for it (something posts like the above are actively trying to shutdown), not because Nintendo suddenly had a spontaneous change of heart.
 
"People don't like change"

No, people don't like change for the sake of change just to appease a minority.

wait wait wait lol

what "minority"

I'm curious as to what the reaction of some people here were to the Tomodachi Life controversy regarding same sex marriage. According to the logic of statements like the above, all of us gay people were mentally ill for simply asking Nintendo to change their "creative vision" for the game to a more inclusive one. Nintendo initially gave a really lousy response to the request for inclusiveness in that game, and they were rightly called out for it, as they are here.

Inclusion only happens when people ask for it. It has NEVER happened just because the dominant demographic in society "finally felt like it." Nintendo apologized after the above controversy and promised to do better in the future, and they eventually did so with Fire Emblem. That happened because people asked for it (something posts like the above are actively trying to shutdown), not because Nintendo suddenly had a spontaneous change of heart.

It's really depressing isn't it? If people simply asking for inclusion is "just for the sake of change" then what the fuck is even the point of anything? Why isn't every character a straight white cis dude because why bother with anything other than the default?
 
wait wait wait lol

what "minority"

Socialist Juicy Warios, I'm betting. Although, they could also mean the minority of the fanbase who'd think having a female Link would be neat. The wording used is really confusing to be honest, it's vague as to what it means.
 
I'm curious as to what the reactions of some people here were to the Tomodachi Life controversy regarding same sex marriage. According to the logic of statements like the above, all of us gay people were mentally ill for simply asking Nintendo to change their "creative vision" for the game to a more inclusive one. Nintendo initially gave a really lousy response to the request for inclusiveness in that game, and they were rightly called out for it, as they are here.

Inclusion only happens when people ask for it. It has NEVER happened just because the dominant demographic in society "finally felt like it." Nintendo apologized after the above controversy and promised to do better in the future, and they eventually did so with Fire Emblem. That happened because people asked for it (something posts like the above are actively trying to shutdown), not because Nintendo suddenly had a spontaneous change of heart.

Tomodachi life were literally Miis meant to represent the player. Link hasn't been a blank avatar in quite some time, and continues to be more defined with each recent game. That's the difference.

I understand wanting more inclusion in games, but there's nothing wrong with having one franchise stay a traditional franchise. If you want a Zelda type game with a female protagonist, there's always games like Horizon coming. If you want a Nintendo game with a female protagonist, there's Metroid, Fire Emblem, or Splatoon.

There are options available, just not for this series. It's what they wanted for the character and so it's happened.

Socialist Juicy Warios, I'm betting. Although, they could also mean the minority of the fanbase who'd think having a female Link would be neat. The wording used is really confusing to be honest, it's vague as to what it means.

Believe it or not, wanting Link to be female is to be in the exceptionally vocal minority. Outside of GAF and a couple of blogs, there's not really much of a push for it to be.
 
I'm not familiar with Brawl. Never even unlocked most of the characters as I wasn't grabbed like whenI got SSB, Melee and 4! Was there a big change in Sheik between the two games?
Brawl
sheik_080116b-l.jpg


SSB4
screen-2sheik.jpg


The latter is the the more recent version in SSB, and Sheik looks more like a guy there.
 
Socialist Juicy Warios, I'm betting. Although, they could also mean the minority of the fanbase who'd think having a female Link would be neat. The wording used is really confusing to be honest, it's vague as to what it means.

Yeah I suspect that's what they mean. Hopefully they're not trying to say women are the minority because that'd be ridiculous.

And then I'd say "prove there aren't a bunch of non-vocal people who wouldn't appreciate a change of pace" followed by "prove there aren't a bunch of non-Zelda players who wouldn't see it and maybe feel like giving it a shot" followed by "seriously, prove it".

The latter is the most recent version of Sheik, and Sheik looks more like a guy there.

It's interesting that your definition of "guy" appears to be entirely based on appearance. Now I'm not saying that maybe Zelda in Ocarina of Time doesn't see themself as a dude, but I'm also not saying they do. You'd hav eto ask Zelda.

Of course she's a fictional character, and there's no indication of trans intent - only hidden identity - so to describe Sheik as male for any reason beyond upholding that hidden identity seems a fool's errand.
 
Can you find the quote where she talks about hiding as a man, or is this jus some bullshit fan wish?

I saw her as being androgynous

Does it actually say male or are you making that up

No, he's right. She was disguised as a male to be as unidentifiable as possible. It's a stretch to use this as evidence of Nintendo/Miyamoto being sexist though.

Nothing short of Link and Zelda switching roles or a female Link will be enough at this point, though.

wait wait wait lol

what "minority"

The minority that wants the change. Please don't be deluded enough to think that this is change that most women are fighting for, rather than a change that feminist gamers want. Most people simply don't care, male or female, and a lot of the people who do care don't even have interest in the series.
 
That bound bust in the second picture says otherwise.
The second picture looks more like a guy that the first. It might look more androgynous or more like a girl on its own for some people, but 4's looks more masculine than Brawl's. It's still a girl in disguise, but it looks more like a man.

I'd suggest checking back through this quote chain to see why it was brought up in the first place.
 
Sheik has been referred to as female for Brawl. What is the point of this discussion anyway? Sheik is clearly (heh) gender ambiguous.
(Except when they get get kicked into the orbit in Sm4sh, hm....)
 
Sheik has a pony tail in both versions but the pic you posted doesn't show it
Sure. And 4's model looks more masculine than Brawl's.

Sheik has been referred to as female for Brawl. What is the point of this discussion anyway? Sheik is clearly (heh) gender ambiguous.

It was a sub point in someone's post about Sheik looking more feminine in recent games. Main topic was why is Sheik thenomlynpoasible female character spinoff being mentioned by the creators. Does that make more sense now?
 
The second picture looks more like a guy that the first. It might look more androgynous or more like a girl on its own for some people, but 4's looks more masculine than Brawl's. It's still a girl in disguise, but it looks more like a man.

I'd suggest checking back through this quote chain to see why it was brought up in the first place.

Just went through it, and you're still wrong. Sorry.
 
The minority that wants the change. Please don't be deluded enough to think that this is change that most women are fighting for, rather than a change that feminist gamers want. Most people simply don't care, male or female, and a lot of the people who do care don't even have interest in the series.

those damn feminists am i right

Your attitude is gross.
 
Skyward Sword has arguably the best cutscenes in Zelda, precisely because Link has these cool facial features.
Those pos soured TP and SS and broke the Link for me.
It was a sub point in someone's post about Sheik looking more feminine in recent games. Main topic was why is Sheik thenomlynpoasible female character spinoff being mentioned by the creators. Does that make more sense now?
In regards to the initial topic I addressed that some pages ago already. Basically, I agree with your sentiments.
 
those damn feminists am i right

Your attitude is gross.

You're reading malice in my post which isn't there. I was just stating a fact. I wasn't putting down feminism at all. I consider myself a feminist, though perhaps not quite in the same way as many people here.
 
Right about here:



Sheik has a minor bust that's clearly bound. She's not more masculine at all outside of the brow which most likely is due to her scowling. She also has a smaller waist (which could be due to the positioning, but still.)

That's where the disconnect is between what we're seeing/saying. 4's character model's bust looks more like it's been bound to appear more like a guy. It still is and looks like a girl, but it looks less like a girl/looks more androgynous than Brawl's character model.

I brought that up because there was a decision to ha the character model between those games, moving away from a more apparently female-in-appearance character model. It's like the opposite of what's happened to Samus' armor over the Metroid and SSB series.
 
Well would you rather have a Link that doesn't react to anything at all?

I give you TP though, hated Link's facial features in that game.
Yes please. As little as possible. Don't make cutscenes be about Link. If it's going to be about Link, make it gameplay.
 
What exactly is gross in the post your quoting? Seems to reflect reality quite well. Most simply don't care.

Because it can be seen as coded language that only SJWs care about it and no one in the fanbase does. There's a real minority in the Zelda fanbase that does want a female Link, this isn't a new thing, it existed for years. The more recently vocal discussions about only happened since the first trailer of Zelda U and Aonuma's trolling, and got louder with Linkle, comments from Aonuma, and the heavy rumor that there was a gender option in BotW.
 
You're reading malice in my post which isn't there. I was just stating a fact. I wasn't putting down feminism at all. I consider myself a feminist, though perhaps not quite in the same way as many people here.

You're right, I apologize! Momentary lapse in ability to comprehend text properly!

Although I still don't agree that ONLY feminist gamers care, at least not for those reasons stereotypically attributed to such a group. I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people who would just like to see something different, regardless of how it's dine.

Maybe a Link of Indian descent or something!

It just happened to grow this big for "female link", specifically, because of various circumstances surrounding this particular game's marketing cycle.
 
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