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[Spring-Loaded]

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be different; I'm saying that it would be shit and that having Sheik instead is the better compromise. It's the best way to have an action game starring Zelda in some form without making it an obvious attempt at appeasing a vocal group. Otherwise, I'd see more more merit in an RTS where Zelda commands Hyrule's army in a war.

Sheik is only "the better compromise," because Nintendo's made it clear they're reluctant to have Zelda star in the mainline Zelda series. If they think that Link "would need something to do," if Zelda were the lead, but not the other way around, that really suggests they wouldn't make a Zelda game that plays just like TLoZ series, which in turn suggests a purely Zelda-focused game wouldn't be action-oriented.

That action spinoff should be able to feature Zelda as Zelda without needing to be a puzzle game or a management sim or whatever, but from on high, it sounds like that would happen. Having Zelda be at the forefront of any type of game wouldn't mean they're trying to "appease a vocal group," any more than a Sheik game would.

If this post seems disjointed, I was afraid of someone pulling the "sexist" card on me, though I'm sure that I failed at avoiding even that.

Ok.

As Nintendo proved this E3, there are far more numerous options of other conventions or properties which can be altered or improved that are far more likely to be accepted by the mass market than of altering the basic identity of the main character of a franchise who is already so widely beloved by the target market.

Simply can't buy that a gender option or having a new Link be exclusively female would actually dilute the brand any more than having different art styles, different default appearances, multiple Links in the Four Swords/TriForce Heroes spinoffs, and so forth. Again, I completely believe they're scared to mess with it further, but it's already been messed with in comparable ways, and it's due only to the belief that a change in gender is unspeakable and massive in ways that it just straight-up wouldn't be.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Pretty sure most of the people in this discussion are fans of the series. Not sure where that speculation gets us either. Safe to say anyone on this forum has some interest in video games as a whole, and their input is as worthwhile as the most diehard fan.

The bolded sounds like you're projecting that on them. I haven't followed your quote chain, but I really doubt that was ever said.

Yeah, I didn't mean to direct that specifically at him and later edited. It's more about how people are viewing Nintendo for not making a female Link. Also, I'm not discounting anyone's opinion as not being worthwhile.

 

[othersteve]

Simply can't buy that a gender option or having a new Link be exclusively female would actually dilute the brand any more than having different art styles, different default appearances, multiple Links in the Four Swords/TriForce Heroes spinoffs, and so forth. Again, I completely believe they're scared to mess with it further, but it's already been messed with in comparable ways, and it's due only to the belief that a change in gender is unspeakable and massive in ways that it just straight-up wouldn't be.

Of all the changes we've seen in mainstream Zelda games (read: not many -- Triforce Heroes, Hyrule Warriors, etc. are not included here), a gender change is the least appropriate fit for the tale. The foundational aspects of the franchise have always been good versus evil, boy saves girl. As inclusionary as society's current mentality happens to be, there is nothing wrong with this approach to a franchise -- and it still, whether or not people wish to accept it, appeals to the largest constituency among the options available.

Neither of these two properties, if altered, would likely be widely embraced by the Zelda fanbase at large. Accepted? Quite possibly, but the goal of a game publisher spending untold millions on a major installment of a hallmark franchise is not mere acceptance.

I hate to frame it as such, but this constitutes little more than a pipe dream by this subset of gamers who so fervently wish this change to be embraced. Let's move on. The market is expanding, and companies are slowly moving to exploit this to their advantage -- which is their purpose in the game. But the risk involved and the likelihood of alienating, whether passively or actively, directly or indirectly, fans of the existing template of Zelda is too high to justify versus the alternative of developing or altering another, less financially risky franchise.

 

[Mega]

Are people here familiar with what happened to Tropicana some years back, 08-09? They made a seemingly innocuous change to their logo, packaging and overall branding. Despite the fact that there were no masses of people gushing daily on social media about their love of Tropicana and the orange brand, tons of people came out of the woodwork to voice strong opinions and the harmless change was met with a huge backlash that cost the company millions. They never expected such a negative reaction. I know it's a different industry, but this has become a legendary case in branding, design and marketing/advertising.

Electronics consumers, video gamers and Nintendo's fans are much more passionate and involved than juice drinkers. Nintendo has to tread that much more carefully. Simply put, stuff like this is always on the minds of companies like Nintendo as something they wish to avoid. It's not a simple change they can rush into regardless if that's what it feels like to us.

 

[othersteve]

Are people here familiar with what happened to Tropicana some years back, 08-09? They made a seemingly innocuous change to their logo, packaging and overall branding. Despite the fact that there were no masses of people gushing daily on social media about their love of Tropicana and the orange brand, tons of people came out of the woodwork to voice strong opinions and the harmless change was met with a huge backlash that cost the company millions. They never expected such a negative reaction. I know it's a different industry, but this has become a legendary case in branding, design and marketing/advertising.

Electronics consumers, video gamers and Nintendo's fans are much more passionate and involved than juice drinkers. Nintendo has to tread that much more carefully. Simply put, stuff like this is always on the minds of companies like Nintendo as something they wish to avoid. It's not a simple change they can rush into regardless if that's what it feels like to us.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I wonder if the people begging for a female link will ever reach acceptance ...

Bargaining phase is cute and all but its time to move on.

This type of comment repeated throughout this thread show such a sad commitment to a discussion they don't think matters.

 

[Rich!]

This type of comment repeated throughout this thread show such a sad commitment to a discussion they don't think matters.

Because it does not matter. It's an absolutely pointless argument.

Link is male. He will stay that way. Nintendo have confirmed this. Please, end the madness and desperation.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Sheik is only "the better compromise," because Nintendo's made it clear they're reluctant to have Zelda star in the mainline Zelda series. If they think that Link "would need something to do," if Zelda were the lead, but not the other way around, that really suggests they wouldn't make a Zelda game that plays just like TLoZ series, which in turn suggests a purely Zelda-focused game wouldn't be action-oriented.

That action spinoff should be able to feature Zelda as Zelda without needing to be a puzzle game or a management sim or whatever, but from on high, it sounds like that would happen. Having Zelda be at the forefront of any type of game wouldn't mean they're trying to "appease a vocal group," any more than a Sheik game would.

Did you ever consider that the line was referring to not knowing what role to put Link into if Zelda takes the lead? From that perspective, it's honest concern. They'd have to change the entire dynamic of the Triforce unless Link just isn't around for some reason.

Also, my issue is if it's just appeasing them. As in, it's a game which serves no real purpose other than that and just feels like some guys in suits told devs how to design their game for the sake of appeasement, rather than the developer making a game that they want to make.

 

[Sammy Samusu]

I think Nintendo is sexist too!

Spoiler

Why else would they keep Samus in the dungeon?

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Because it does not matter. It's an absolutely pointless argument.

Link is male. He will stay that way. Nintendo have confirmed this. Please, end the madness and desperation.

This post being another example.
Didn't you "quit" this thread or is this just a joke character being a joke character?

 

[Rich!]

This post being another example.
Didn't you "quit" this thread or is this just a joke character being a joke character?

Yeah last night when I went to bed.

And joke character? Christ, I'm not the one who's on the side of insanity here.

 

[ajb1888]

Now that Miyamoto was clear about his vision for the character I hope people stop being delusional and accept it. All we have here is circular and counter-productive discussions about people with different visions for what Link represents to them.
If things continue like this gender bending begging will be as bad as port begging in the near future.

True this. The vision of the director is the vision of the director.

Also, I want to play a male Bayonetta in the future. please?

 

[ClayKavalier]

Are people here familiar with what happened to Tropicana some years back, 08-09? They made a seemingly innocuous change to their logo, packaging and overall branding. Despite the fact that there were no masses of people gushing daily on social media about their love of Tropicana and the orange brand, tons of people came out of the woodwork to voice strong opinions and the harmless change was met with a huge backlash that cost the company millions. They never expected such a negative reaction. I know it's a different industry, but this has become a legendary case in branding, design and marketing/advertising.

Electronics consumers, video gamers and Nintendo's fans are much more passionate and involved than juice drinkers. Nintendo has to tread that much more carefully. Simply put, stuff like this is always on the minds of companies like Nintendo as something they wish to avoid. It's not a simple change they can rush into regardless if that's what it feels like to us.

I feel like a lot of posters in this thread are forgetting why controversial Wind Waker's cel shading was. Maybe many are too young to remember? There was a huge backlash. Now it's a lot of peoples' favorite Zelda and ended up being popular enough to get an HD remake.

People don't like change. Which is very apparent reading this thread. But people also adapt and change their minds. Making dramatic, bold creative decisions and sticking to them is really exciting and Nintendo has done that with the Zelda series before.

I'm sure I'll get some explanation about how changing an art style and changing packaging are not comparable at all, but my point is that it would be really disappointing if from now on Nintendo is afraid to make bold artistic choices because there may be a backlash, especially when they know from experience that initial backlashes don't last forever.

As a fan a decision new enough to cause a backlash is a hell of a lot more interesting than sticking to a 30 year old template.

Yeah last night when I went to bed.

And joke character? Christ, I'm not the one who's on the side of insanity here.

What are you on the side of? Truth and justice? The Inarticulate League?

 

[Rich!]

"People don't like change"

No, people don't like change for the sake of change just to appease a minority.

 

[WiiRevolution1]

Please, end the madness and desperation.

No.

 

[MuchoMalo]

True this. The vision of the director is the vision of the director.

Also, I want to play a male Bayonetta in the future. please?

No, that's not okay because there are already too many male protagonists. What you want to ask for is the option to change Bayonetta's race, body type, or accent. We're talking about inclusion here.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

"People don't like change"

No, people don't like change for the sake of change just to appease a minority.

Well, I'm glad the real world disagrees with you. At least most of the time.

 

[RPGam3r]

Male link makes sense staying male link for me as I've always pictured him as a male even though he has been lean on personality. He is a character and has always been a boy/guy.

I don't understand people being upset by a rumor the internet spun up. Also the creators have the final say so you either like what they make or you don't and in turn don't buy it.

Now I would love to see a Zelda, Sheik, or Linkle game. So this statement has me excited for these female characters will get the attention they deserve.

 

[IronicSonic]

Because it does not matter. It's an absolutely pointless argument.

Link is male. He will stay that way. Nintendo have confirmed this. Please, end the madness and desperation.

It is valid to discuss the arguments made by Nintendo's representatives to defend its stand about Zelda series. This is a forum after all

 

[……forgetit]

Well, I'm glad the real world disagrees with you. At least most of the time.

Honestly I'd say the overall world sadly agrees most of the time.

 

[Darth_Caedus]

Male link makes sense staying male link for me as I've always pictured him as a male even though he has been lean on personality. He is a character and has always been a boy/guy.

I don't understand people being upset by a rumor the internet spun up. Also the creators have the final say so you either like what they make or you don't and in turn don't buy it.

Now I would love to see a Zelda, Sheik, or Linkle game. So this statement has me excited for these female characters will get the attention they deserve.

People are crazy these days. Diversity obssesed to the point of going crazy if an Internet rumor isn't real. The creators make the game, not you, if you want a female Link so bad just write some fanfic.

 

[Tadpole]

Of all the changes we've seen in mainstream Zelda games (read: not many -- Triforce Heroes, Hyrule Warriors, etc. are not included here), a gender change is the least appropriate fit for the tale. The foundational aspects of the franchise have always been good versus evil, boy saves girl. As inclusionary as society's current mentality happens to be, there is nothing wrong with this approach to a franchise -- and it still, whether or not people wish to accept it, appeals to the largest constituency among the options available.

Neither of these two properties, if altered, would likely be widely embraced by the Zelda fanbase at large. Accepted? Quite possibly, but the goal of a game publisher spending untold millions on a major installment of a hallmark franchise is not mere acceptance.

I hate to frame it as such, but this constitutes little more than a pipe dream by this subset of gamers who so fervently wish this change to be embraced. Let's move on. The market is expanding, and companies are slowly moving to exploit this to their advantage -- which is their purpose in the game. But the risk involved and the likelihood of alienating, whether passively or actively, directly or indirectly, fans of the existing template of Zelda is too high to justify versus the alternative of developing or altering another, less financially risky franchise.

Stop you're makng too much sense. Seriously though... Well said.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Are people here familiar with what happened to Tropicana some years back, 08-09? They made a seemingly innocuous change to their logo, packaging and overall branding. Despite the fact that there were no masses of people gushing daily on social media about their love of Tropicana and the orange brand, tons of people came out of the woodwork to voice strong opinions and the harmless change was met with a huge backlash that cost the company millions. They never expected such a negative reaction. I know it's a different industry, but this has become a legendary case in branding, design and marketing/advertising.

Electronics consumers, video gamers and Nintendo's fans are much more passionate and involved than juice drinkers. Nintendo has to tread that much more carefully. Simply put, stuff like this is always on the minds of companies like Nintendo as something they wish to avoid. It's not a simple change they can rush into regardless if that's what it feels like to us.

They lost something like a fifth of their sales in a couple of months from that logo change and lost something like $30 million from the entire debacle. Not counting what they had wasted on the marketing and design of the logo change to begin with.

Which incidentally, I do think was hideous.

Tropicana made a really interesting blunder where they underestimated how emotionally attached people were to the juice and the logo they had seen for years. But they also designed it to the point of being nigh unrecognizable. And in fairness to the idea of a female Link, I don't know that there would be such a confusion.

I would think that a lesson to take from the Tropicana thing is actually the value of incremental changes. They threw out everything that made the brand recognizable all at once. If Nintendo were to do Zelda spinoffs featuring various characters, like Ganon, Zelda, Sheik, Impa, etc, they might be able to ease everyone into the changes necessary to revamp the main series. So I don't think this talk of Sheik spinoffs is a bad thing for those wanting a female representation in the main series. It seems like slow progress.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Completely and utterly wrong. The conversation was very plain and easy to follow and there was no misunderstanding. You had an idea for a Zelda game and I commented on it with full awareness of what you said and you got butthurt and went straight into angry defensive mode. I've interacted with dozens here, note you're the only one super bent out of shape who started attacking me personally rather than arguing discussion points.

Sigh. I was referring to the fact that you entered a discussion about Link's design in The Wind Waker, demonstrated that you did not understand that the discussion was about Link's design and not Link's role or character, and intimated a lack of logic because you didn't understand what I was saying. You replied to me with an explicitly antagonistic post, and you then expected me to not be antagonized, so please don't complain that I called you a fake Zelda fan and got annoyed by your post.

Perhaps instead of pointing out how poor of behavior another poster has, consider that people are pointing out your poor behavior because you actually do exhibit poor behavior.

 

[PtM]

Initially you quoted this, asking "How so?"



I was asking if you were asking "how so?" in regards to Tetra or Shiek for clarificatiion on to what your question actually meant.

I was questioning "Sheik is very much like Zelda". Then I reread that there is no "like" in there and withdrew.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The Legend of Zelda is not a series that needs "boy saves girl." Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening are proof of that.

 

[Mega]

Sigh. I was referring to the fact that you entered a discussion about Link's design in The Wind Waker, demonstrated that you did not understand that the discussion was about Link's design and not Link's role or character, and intimated a lack of logic because you didn't understand what I was saying. You replied to me with an explicitly antagonistic post, and you then expected me to not be antagonized, so please don't complain that I called you a fake Zelda fan and got annoyed by your post.

Perhaps instead of pointing out how poor of behavior another poster has, consider that people are pointing out your poor behavior because you actually do exhibit poor behavior.

Likewise.

I already explained to Spring-Loaded that I was explicitly talking about Link's design in WW appearing as male/a boy (in contrast to Tetra's design which I feel has more feminine traits). I was not touching on his role or character. I was disagreeing with you and agreeing with the person you were having a plain English back and forth discussion. I was not confused or misunderstanding anything. Can we move on from this already?

 

[SephLuis]

The Legend of Zelda is not a series that needs "boy saves girl." Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening are proof of that.

boy saves world and maybe girl.

That any better ?

 

[Mory Dunz]

I wonder if the people begging for a female link will ever reach acceptance ...

Bargaining phase is cute and all but its time to move on.

It really is time to move on imo.

Before the big reveal, and during speculation phase?
sure, have at it.

Now? When the question has been definitively answered several times?
ok, c'mon now.

 

[James Scott]

An interesting point about Wind Waker despite being a Link who was not a reincarnation of the original:
Tetra was a reincarnation of Zelda. Despite not knowing what she looked like, Ganondorf knew that to find her he needed to capture girls with long ears which might very well imply that they are reborn with certain physical character traits in tact.
Because of this, Link is given the opportunity to show his courage because his family is taken.
While you can probably make a female Link, it likely wouldn't be Link.
As for Zelda, Nintendo will likely make a spin off, which sounds fine. As long as they don't give it to Team Ninja, it should be a quality product

 

[A Link to the Past]

Likewise.

I already explained to Spring-Loaded that I was explicitly talking about Link's design in WW appearing as male/a boy (in contrast to Tetra's design which I feel has more feminine traits). I was not touching on his role or character. I was disagreeing with you and agreeing with the person you were having a plain English back and forth discussion. I was not confused or misunderstanding anything. Can we move on from this already?

"Link is clearly male in WW."

Followed by:

"There is really nothing to be argued there. He is the Hero of Winds and meets his male equivalent predecessor, the Hero of Time."

This has nothing to do with his physical appearance, and is relevant only to his role. If your intent was to explicitly talk about Link's design, then that's interesting to me because you did not touch upon even ONE physical trait of Link and focused exclusively on what he does. Seriously; don't simply lie about what you were discussing. Like Spring-Loaded said, just own up to it. Sometimes people come into discussions and misunderstand things. It happens.

boy saves world and maybe girl.

That any better ?

But Link's Awakening is the exact opposite of saving the world

 

[SephLuis]

But Link's Awakening is the exact opposite of saving the world

Can't comment since I haven't played Awakening. But the overall plot of 90% of the Zelda games still remain boy saves girl/world

 

[Llyrwenne]

Did you ever consider that the line was referring to not knowing what role to put Link into if Zelda takes the lead? From that perspective, it's honest concern. They'd have to change the entire dynamic of the Triforce unless Link just isn't around for some reason.

I mostly tried to stay out of this whole discussion because I find it puzzling that there is such vocal resistance and lack of understanding from parts of the 'leave Nintendo alone'-camp, but I feel like I absolutely need to reply to this post.

No, it is not an honest concern. "We can't think of anything for Link to do." is a disingenuous statement. He is the creative director of the series. They have shown no problems in thinking up stuff. Sheik as a way to give Zelda a more active role in the story. Zelda as a ghost / spirit helping Link in Spirit Tracks. Changing up everything by flooding Hyrule in Wind Waker. Adding completely new story elements like the Twilight Realm. Having Link be a wolf. Having the spirit of a previous incarnation learn Link new techniques in Twilight Princess. Alternate realms reachable through becoming a 2D version of yourself and passing through cracks in a wall. Both Ganon and Zelda are not in every game. I could go on and on. The idea that they can't come up with something to do for Link if there were to be another player character is utterly laughable.

Here, let me just spout out three basic ideas that took no effort at all to come up with:

• Link is around as an older hermit-type character passing down knowledge to the player character.
• Link is the one that is kidnapped instead of Zelda and you need to save him ( This could work with a simple Zelda - Link switch and would require little to no changing to the usual story. ).
• Link failed in this timeline and the player character decides to try and fix things, eventually ending up with the Triforce of Courage through her courage.

"But Triforce!"; make it so that he lost the Triforce after he saved the world. Have the Triforce pass on to the player character halfway through the game. Anything. They can come up with pretty much any number of things for Link to do. They just simply want Link to always be a boy and always be the main character. That's fine. No harm no foul. But this "What would Link do?" / "Balance of the Triforce!" / "I don't understand why people even want this and thus they are wrong / should stop complaining!" stuff is complete bull, and quite frankly getting sort of insulting.

If they want Link to always be a boy and never have another playable character in mainline Zelda, then that's fine. If you personally do not want a female Link or a female playable character, then that's... a weirdly specific thing to be so vocally against and I would like to have a discussion on why ( preferably without disingenuous reasons like 'artistic integrity' ), but still; fine. However, being against female Link / playable character for any reason does not necessitate you to defend the idiotic statements given by the creative director.

I do not personally have a problem with them seeing Link as a boy. I would've loved to see a female option, but if they don't want it, that is ok. I don't have a problem with other people seeing Link as a character whom they want to be a boy either. That's fine and I don't think you should have blanket accusations thrown at you. I do however have a problem with those people who feel the need to very vocally justify their opposition through disingenuous arguments, those who seem hellbent on defending the dumb statements made by Aonuma, and those who seem dismissive of the suggestion / fem-Link discussion as a whole because they do not understand what drives it.

There is a discussion that can be had on why or why not some people support female Link / a female player character and how Nintendo could react and what role a Sheik-game would play in this, but I simply do not see that discussion seriously getting off the ground due to the apparently large amount of people that seem so completely - and unfairly - dismissive of the idea / discussion in the first place.

 

[ScriptedReality]

As expected. I'm cool with it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Can't comment since I haven't played Awakening. But the overall plot of 90% of the Zelda games still remain boy saves girl/world

You should play it though

 

[Mega]

"Link is clearly male in WW."

Followed by:

"There is really nothing to be argued there. He is the Hero of Winds and meets his male equivalent predecessor, the Hero of Time."

This has nothing to do with his physical appearance, and is relevant only to his role. If your intent was to explicitly talk about Link's design, then that's interesting to me because you did not touch upon even ONE physical trait of Link and focused exclusively on what he does. Seriously; don't simply lie about what you were discussing. Like Spring-Loaded said, just own up to it. Sometimes people come into discussions and misunderstand things. It happens.

I already said in a past post that I was talking about the fact that the Hero of Winds, a young boy, came across a statue of the Hero of Time, a taller and clearly male lookalike of himself. Come on, dude. I am telling you exactly what my words meant and what I was thinking as I typed that and you're telling me "lol no, you meant this."

I have been a huge proponents in these threads of the Links being lookalike male reincarnations in spite of stylistic changes from one game to the next (Hero of Time in WW looks like WW Link and less like OOT Link). I have been here and elsewhere talking about his physical maleness, not roles. Please drop this already. You're blatantly misconstruing my words and intentions.

 

[MuchoMalo]

An interesting point about Wind Waker despite being a Link who was not a reincarnation of the original:
Tetra was a reincarnation of Zelda. Despite not knowing what she looked like, Ganondorf knew that to find her he needed to capture girls with long ears which might very well imply that they are reborn with certain physical character traits in tact.
Because of this, Link is given the opportunity to show his courage because his family is taken.
While you can probably make a female Link, it likely wouldn't be Link.
As for Zelda, Nintendo will likely make a spin off, which sounds fine. As long as they don't give it to Team Ninja, it should be a quality product

That is a good point. I've wanted to bring up the point that reincarnation in Zelda might not be the same as how we tend to think of it, but I avoided the point since I couldn't back it up.

 

[PMS341]

As for Zelda, Nintendo will likely make a spin off, which sounds fine. As long as they don't give it to Team Ninja, it should be a quality product

It should go to Platinum.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I already said in a past post that I was talking about the fact that the Hero of Winds, a young boy, came across a statue of the Hero of Time, a taller and clearly male lookalike of himself. Come on, dude. I am telling you exactly what my words meant and what I was thinking as I typed that and you're telling me "lol no, you meant this."

I have been a huge proponents in these threads of the Links being lookalike male reincarnations in spite of stylistic changes from one game to the next (Hero of Time in WW looks like WW Link and less like OOT Link). I have been here and elsewhere talking about his physical maleness, not roles. Please drop this already. You're blatantly misconstruing my words and intentions.

Firstly, who cares what you said in a past post? Why would you assume that people have full context of what you are at all talking about?

Secondly, your point on "Link is clearly resembling a taller and male lookalike of himself" has nothing to do with anything that I've been saying. I am talking about his design out-of-universe, and if you want to talk about "if you read my past posts", if you read my past posts you would know that I am talking about recognizability. WW Link could be a girl and have zero changes made to his design, he isn't old enough to have traits emphasized. Therefore, Link's design is not inherently male from a visual standpoint.

 

[Pizza]

I'm in the camp that thinks it'd be cute and neat to get a female link option for future games, it'd be cool if we got a prince Zelda at some point too. Not because "lol lets genderbend Mario and Nathan Drake" but because these characters are often times not the same people from game to game, so having reincarnations where their genders are the same or swapped seems plausible.

But if no one making the game wants to do that then it's fine, it'd be cool to actually get a good shiek game tho

 

[Mega]

Firstly, who cares what you said in a past post? Why would you assume that people have full context of what you are at all talking about?

Secondly, your point on "Link is clearly resembling a taller and male lookalike of himself" has nothing to do with anything that I've been saying. I am talking about his design out-of-universe, and if you want to talk about "if you read my past posts", if you read my past posts you would know that I am talking about recognizability.

By past posts, I mean posts today and late last night since you and I had our disagreement... of course I don't expect you to know what I said X number of days ago in another thread. Here was the exchange with you and another poster:

That line of mine you (Spring-Loaded) quoted...I was talking about Link's visual design being clearly male, not his role. The two prior posts:

1-Both WW and TP Link are clearly male , how can you fail to see how a girl would be different?

2-The notion that Wind Waker Link is clearly male is a lie of epic proportions. Can you explain the clarity of his gender?

3-And I responded to 2 that I agree with 1.

WW Link could be a girl and have zero changes made to his design, he isn't old enough to have traits emphasized. Therefore, Link's design is not inherently male from a visual standpoint

And I disagree and explained why I disagree. This is a basic disagreement and difference of opinions, not a misunderstanding or confusion on my part. And I'm not now telling you you're confused or dumb. We just see things differently. Can we move on from this maturely?

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Nintendo do not want to do it. It is THEIR creation, THEIR series, THEIR character and THEIR decision. Not yours.

There. That's your reason, and it should be the only one you need. But you, and many others, will refuse to accept it and carry on banging the same battered old drum until the end of times. Excuse me whilst I go get some earplugs.

Yes it is their creation but we also can and will critizice said decision because we don't have to like it.

That's like saying "why are you whining about the WiiU's lack of third parties? It's Nintendo's console, it's their decisions!"

 

[SephLuis]

You should play it though

I would like it someday, but right now I got a pile of games to go through. I do believe I have the game on the 3DS VC, so someday I should play it.

 

[MuchoMalo]

I mostly tried to stay out of this whole discussion because I find it puzzling that there is such vocal resistance and lack of understanding from parts of the 'leave Nintendo alone'-camp, but I feel like I absolutely need to reply to this post.

No, it is not an honest concern. "We can't think of anything for Link to do." is a disingenuous statement. He is the creative director of the series. They have shown no problems in thinking up stuff. Sheik as a way to give Zelda a more active role in the story. Zelda as a ghost / spirit helping Link in Spirit Tracks. Changing up everything by flooding Hyrule in Wind Waker. Adding completely new story elements like the Twilight Realm. Having Link be a wolf. Having the spirit of a previous incarnation learn Link new techniques in Twilight Princess. Alternate realms reachable through becoming a 2D version of yourself and passing through cracks in a wall. Both Ganon and Zelda are not in every game. I could go on and on. The idea that they can't come up with something to do for Link if there were to be another player character is utterly laughable.

Here, let me just spout out three basic ideas that took no effort at all to come up with:

• Link is around as an older hermit-type character passing down knowledge to the player character.
• Link is the one that is kidnapped instead of Zelda and you need to save him ( This could work with a simple Zelda - Link switch and would require little to no changing to the usual story. ).
• Link failed in this timeline and the player character decides to try and fix things, eventually ending up with the Triforce of Courage through her courage.

"But Triforce!"; make it so that he lost the Triforce after he saved the world. Have the Triforce pass on to the player character halfway through the game. Anything. They can come up with pretty much any number of things for Link to do. They just simply want Link to always be a boy and always be the main character. That's fine. No harm no foul. But this "What would Link do?" / "Balance of the Triforce!" / "I don't understand why people even want this and thus they are wrong / should stop complaining!" stuff is complete bull, and quite frankly getting sort of insulting.

If they want Link to always be a boy and never have another playable character in mainline Zelda, then that's fine. If you personally do not want a female Link or a female playable character, then that's... a weirdly specific thing to be so vocally against and I would like to have a discussion on why ( preferably without disingenuous reasons like 'artistic integrity' ), but still; fine. However, being against female Link / playable character for any reason does not necessitate you to defend the idiotic statements given by the creative director.

I do not personally have a problem with them seeing Link as a boy. I would've loved to see a female option, but if they don't want it, that is ok. I don't have a problem with other people seeing Link as a character whom they want to be a boy either. That's fine and I don't think you should have blanket accusations thrown at you. I do however have a problem with those people who feel the need to very vocally justify their opposition through disingenuous arguments, those who seem hellbent on defending the dumb statements made by Aonuma, and those who seem dismissive of the suggestion / fem-Link discussion as a whole because they do not understand what drives it.

There is a discussion that can be had on why or why not some people support female Link / a female player character and how Nintendo could react and what role a Sheik-game would play in this, but I simply do not see that discussion seriously getting off the ground due to the apparently large amount of people that seem so completely - and unfairly - dismissive of the idea / discussion in the first place.

My question is, why would they use any of this convoluted reasoning beyond simply trying to appease a group of fans? All of that would just scream, "we're doing this to look progressive in PR," and I don't like that personally. If they go in with that mentality, they're forced to do things they aren't really passionate about just to inclusive, and likely more due to suits than what they want. If they decide that they want to make a game where you play as Zelda, cool. I'm not against it. The mentality that you're either actively fighting for this or wrong is what's bothering me here. I'm not allowed to have an opinion other than "Nintendo must make Zelda or a female Link playable in the next game," or else I'm wrong an a bad person. The people in charge of the franchise aren't allowed to disagree or else they're sexist. It's stupid. You guys are telling people what they must think, and that's why I've been getting more and more annoyed/hostile. I truly hate that more than anything. I do hope that one day it happens, but I want it to be because it's what the people making the game want to do, not because some fans want more inclusion. Just listening to vocal fans won't always make a game better, especially in a case like this where it'll just end up with people wanting more and more inclusion until like a year of development is spent making sure that everyone can feel included, all to appease people who aren't going to base their purchase decision on this anyway. Just... Let them do what they want.

 

[Red Devil]

As long as they don't give it to Team Ninja, it should be a quality product

Team Ninja co-developed Hyrule Warriors...

 

[NickWright]

While I would love a female version of Link, it's clear they want to make him a full-fledged character like Mario or Samus. The fact that apparently we won't be able to name him at all in BOTW is quite the clue.

Anyways, Miya-san is not the first one to talk about a Sheik spin-off? Hype?

 

[Alex_Mexico]

Of all the changes we've seen in mainstream Zelda games (read: not many -- Triforce Heroes, Hyrule Warriors, etc. are not included here), a gender change is the least appropriate fit for the tale. The foundational aspects of the franchise have always been good versus evil, boy saves girl. As inclusionary as society's current mentality happens to be, there is nothing wrong with this approach to a franchise -- and it still, whether or not people wish to accept it, appeals to the largest constituency among the options available.

Neither of these two properties, if altered, would likely be widely embraced by the Zelda fanbase at large. Accepted? Quite possibly, but the goal of a game publisher spending untold millions on a major installment of a hallmark franchise is not mere acceptance.

I hate to frame it as such, but this constitutes little more than a pipe dream by this subset of gamers who so fervently wish this change to be embraced. Let's move on. The market is expanding, and companies are slowly moving to exploit this to their advantage -- which is their purpose in the game. But the risk involved and the likelihood of alienating, whether passively or actively, directly or indirectly, fans of the existing template of Zelda is too high to justify versus the alternative of developing or altering another, less financially risky franchise.

So let me get his straight:

Link can be a machinist, an orphan with a tree for a father, brown haired, pink haired, blonde haired, right handed, left handed, live in a forest with kids, live alone with a nameless uncle, live in the sky, shipwreck in a dream island, adventure in bizarre town with a moon with a face striking down, turn into a fish/Gordon/shrub, turn into a motherfucking god, be featured in games where Zelda isn't even featured BUT having an option of Link being female is where we're drawing the line, huh?

Bull-fucking-shit. We'll have entire different art styles, world settings change, inconsistent Hyrule geographies, tacked-on motion controls, entire new villains, lack of Ganon, and lack of the titular Princess Zelda before we can fathom giving Link tits and female grunts as an option, no sir! Suddenly the whole franchise would fall on its seams!!!!!!!

 

[Riposte]

Glad Link will always be the hero. I dislike the idea of them breaking that trend, irrespective of a gender option.

Yes it is their creation but we also can and will critizice said decision because we don't have to like it.

That's like saying "why are you whining about the WiiU's lack of third parties? It's Nintendo's console, it's their decisions!"

Can said criticism also be criticized? Because at this point, it should be taken as seriously as low-grade, gender-swap fan-fiction. It is fan-fiction. Link can be a woman in your fan-fiction.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

A Zelda game would be cool.

But then what would Link do?

 

[Mega]

I feel like a lot of posters in this thread are forgetting why controversial Wind Waker's cel shading was. Maybe many are too young to remember? There was a huge backlash. Now it's a lot of peoples' favorite Zelda and ended up being popular enough to get an HD remake.

People don't like change. Which is very apparent reading this thread. But people also adapt and change their minds. Making dramatic, bold creative decisions and sticking to them is really exciting and Nintendo has done that with the Zelda series before.

I'm sure I'll get some explanation about how changing an art style and changing packaging are not comparable at all, but my point is that it would be really disappointing if from now on Nintendo is afraid to make bold artistic choices because there may be a backlash, especially when they know from experience that initial backlashes don't last forever.

I think the post below from orthodoxy speaks to yours. I remember the WW backlash fondly. It was all everyone talked about that E3 reveal and it was all over EGM, IGN and forums of the time. It worked out in the end but every major shift in the franchise needs to be meticulously considered. Past success is not an indication of future success. Back to the branding examples, Pepsi has changed their logo without contoversy before but had the most rocky transition with the 00s rebrand.

They lost something like a fifth of their sales in a couple of months from that logo change and lost something like $30 million from the entire debacle. Not counting what they had wasted on the marketing and design of the logo change to begin with.

Which incidentally, I do think was hideous.

Tropicana made a really interesting blunder where they underestimated how emotionally attached people were to the juice and the logo they had seen for years. But they also designed it to the point of being nigh unrecognizable. And in fairness to the idea of a female Link, I don't know that there would be such a confusion.

I would think that a lesson to take from the Tropicana thing is actually the value of incremental changes. They threw out everything that made the brand recognizable all at once. If Nintendo were to do Zelda spinoffs featuring various characters, like Ganon, Zelda, Sheik, Impa, etc, they might be able to ease everyone into the changes necessary to revamp the main series. So I don't think this talk of Sheik spinoffs is a bad thing for those wanting a female representation in the main series. It seems like slow progress.

I consider Hyrule Warriors as a step towards progress, easing us into a female-led spin-off or greater front and center female representation in a mainline game.