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Miyamoto: In mainline Zeldas, Link will always be the hero, will consider S spin-offs

I fail to see who a girl in a green tunic would be less retaining than the twilight->wind waker diference

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Having a girl link does not erase the 11 unique links that came before. Never having a girl link erases girl link

Both WW and TP Link are clearly male , how can you fail to see how a girl would be different? It doesn't matter though the creator of the character already said male Link is his vision of the character for the mainline series that makes any further debate of this topic pointless
 
Except he isn't a reincarnation of Mario, but let's agree to disagree.

Yes, but what was said before that day? I remember them saying stuff like it being a possibility that it's someone else and not Link. They were definitely playing around with something.

Obviously it started somewhere, ask yourself, why are people asking for a female Link and not female Mario? It didn't start with Emily, she only threw oil on the fire, this was a thing way before what she said.

There's a reason this is happening to this franchise and not different one.

I know she's not actually Link, but they did kind of make her a thing in a Direct IMO.

This is Nintendo's mess to fix, they should have spoken out about this ages ago, stating they want Link to be male because that's what they feel like. Not this bs about gender representation in the Triforce, or them not knowing what Link would do if Zelda isn't kidnapped. The Emily thing is unfortunate, but they haven't exactly handled it well.
He said "no one specifically said that was Link." He never implied a female Link, he really didn't imply anything, he just made a joke. With that joke people took Link, a bishonen character, created a fanfic in their heads of Link being a girl and got mad when it didn't happen. That's where it started. Since then it's been perpetuated by consistent and annoyingly circular arguments that all boil down to either calling people sexist or "why not?" one of which isn't a argument but instead juvenile name calling, and the other can be applied to literally anything ever.

It doesn't happen with Mario as no one is gullible enough to think that Nintendo would change Mario, though I wouldn't doubt it if someone tried.

Also what part of them outright stating that Link is a male in Zelda U do you not get? They shot it down, the "dream" was dead the third day after E3.
 
Two modes. Link saves Zelda and the other mode is Zelda saves Link.

All you need to do is swap the characters. You don't need to re-write the story, you don't have to give them different powers, you just swap the models over.

If people argue against that, or consider not giving the option is "good", there is really something wrong.

It would need more than a model swap I think, but it would depend on that specific game's story.
 
Two modes. Link saves Zelda and the other mode is Zelda saves Link.

All you need to do is swap the characters. You don't need to re-write the story, you don't have to give them different powers, you just swap the models over.

If people argue against that, or consider not giving the option is "good", there is really something wrong.

Nintendo would do it more justice though.
Since they're different characters, the level design and gameplay would be different.
 
Both WW and TP Link are clearly male , how can you fail to see how a girl would be different? It doesn't matter though the creator of the character already said male Link is his vision of the character for the mainline series that makes any further debate of this topic pointless

The notion that Wind Waker Link is clearly male is a lie of epic proportions. Can you explain the clarity of his gender?

Anyway, Platy was just pointing out how terrible the arguments that Link needs to retain a consistency between iterations, because the very series he is in explicitly proves otherwise.

Nintendo would do it more justice though.
Since they're different characters, the level design and gameplay would be different.

Better idea - two games, just like the Oracles with the same engine (maybe use the ALBW engine). Link's game would focus more on combat, while Zelda's game is more puzzle-based, just like the two Oracles.
 
Actually, now thinking about it, I'd love for Sheik to be DLC for BotW.
Would be awesome to play the whole game as Sheik.

Change some of the level design where needed for progression.
Playing through the game again with a different skillset would be interesting.
 
And your arbitrary stubbornness isn't doing you any favors.

But we both like Zelda enough to waste a bunch of time posting about it on GAF so hey, we have that in common =)

Edit: sorry for the DP.

Also, I don't think I've been sarcastic.
Uhhh...sorry, I don't mean to insult ya. But I mean, for a while there I felt like I was speaking a foreign language. I feel like what I was typing was way different than what you were reading.
 
Better idea - two games, just like the Oracles with the same engine (maybe use the ALBW engine). Link's game would focus more on combat, while Zelda's game is more puzzle-based, just like the two Oracles.

I like the idea, just wish it was in one game...
Don't wanna buy it twice.

Just like Resident Evil games used to do.
 
I do have to say, it is a right annoyance when people bring up the argument that Link can't be a girl because of recognizability. And when people bring up the differences between TP and TWW, apparently it's okay because "hey art styles change." That's true, but if recognizability was that important, they wouldn't change that drastically.

Mehh, people have very diverse perceptions of characters and what affects their view of them. It's no different from how some view Link as a singular character despite the technical lore of the series, while others view him as an entirely blank and empty vessel despite the ever increasing characterization the games have been infusing into him. People latch onto and value and reinforce certain aspects of a character and ignore or view other aspects as less important or vital to their core characterization.

This extends to the art style vs gender differences. To some the art is just the art but a change in gender constitutes a much more fundamental shift while to others the opposite holds true.

These debates are pointless. Few people are honest participants. Most choosing to hide behind semantics and bullshit logic, for or against, instead of just being honest and saying I want a female Link because that's what I want or that I want a male only Link because that's what I want. Because that's all it really is. People have developed a certain perception of the character of Link and the series as a whole and wish for them to conform to their viewpoint and so they look for reasoning and proof, lore, etc to validate and justify their viewpoint and discredit opposing ones.
 
I like the idea, just wish it was in one game...
Don't wanna buy it twice.

Just like Resident Evil games used to do.

IMO, having it as two separate games just helps get more out of it - for instance, if Seasons and Ages were one game, we would just have one overworld, and we probably wouldn't have time travel AND season changing. Having two games allows one game to be super focused on Zelda's style, and the other on Link's.
 
It's important to bring sales into the discussion because it was the overriding factor into the decline of the series. Saying Nintendo "killed" their only female-led franchise (it had nothing to do with her femaleness, Zelda would have been fucked too if it did Metroid numbers) and your implication that they mistreated their female hero series is simply untrue.

It is rather poor style for you to imply that I think her gender is the reason the series was killed, when at no point did I say that. I solely pointed out that the state/treatment of their only franchise with a female protagonist did not help the matter/discussion, not that gender was the reason for said treatment. I think saying that a franchise that hasn't seen a game in six years is treated poorly is not exactly an unfair description. One could also argue that handing the franchise to Team Ninja was not exactly the best choice (although my criticism here lies soley with the characterization, not the actual game).

Metroid became B level only after THREE games (FIVE if counting GBA) with top-fucking-tier production values equaling the best of Zelda and Mario, underperformed and forced them reevaluate why the sales weren't there.

It is revisionist to claim that Metroid was ever at the level of importance of Mario, or maybe Zelda. It never was. It is also unreasonable to bring up the treatment of the franchise in the 90s or early 00s, given the treatment in recent years. No need to get so defensive.

You don't know that Metroid is dead and I'd say it's not.

I originally used the term comatose, which I think is a fair assessment of a franchise that hasn't seen a game release in six years and is about to get a spin-off handheld release. Things can change, of course.
 
This is Nintendo's mess to fix, they should have spoken out about this ages ago, stating they want Link to be male because that's what they feel like. Not this bs about gender representation in the Triforce, or them not knowing what Link would do if Zelda isn't kidnapped. The Emily thing is unfortunate, but they haven't exactly handled it well.
I dunno, how far do we have to go back

because he was pretty darn male 30 years ago

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Nintendo would do it more justice though.
Since they're different characters, the level design and gameplay would be different.

Why do they need to be different characters? Just make them exactly the same and then nobody can complain. Just because Zelda is a girl it does not mean she has to shoot rainbows to attack enemies.

Zero effort, problem solved.

Change the story? I've yet to see a Zelda game where the story would need to be changed in anyway beyond swapping the names over.
 
The notion that Wind Waker Link is clearly male is a lie of epic proportions. Can you explain the clarity of his gender?

Anyway, Platy was just pointing out how terrible the arguments that Link needs to retain a consistency between iterations, because the very series he is in explicitly proves otherwise.



Better idea - two games, just like the Oracles with the same engine (maybe use the ALBW engine). Link's game would focus more on combat, while Zelda's game is more puzzle-based, just like the two Oracles.

well when I saw the WW reveal back in SpaceWorld there was never a moment in my mind were I though did they make Link a girl, I always saw a male boy, and so did the majority of people since I never saw in any magazine or site people doubting his gender
 
Mehh, people have very diverse perceptions of characters and what affects their view of them. It's no different from how some view Link as a singular character despite the technical lore of the series, while others view him as an entirely blank and empty vessel despite the ever increasing characterization the games have been infusing into him. People latch onto and value and reinforce certain aspects of a character and ignore or view other aspects as less important or vital to their core characterization.

This extends to the art style vs gender differences. To some the art is just the art but a change in gender constitutes a much more fundamental shift while to others the opposite holds true.

These debates are pointless. Few people are honest participants. Most choosing to hide behind semantics and bullshit logic, for or against, instead of just being honest and saying I want a female Link because that's what I want or that I want a male only Link because that's what I want. Because that's all it really is. People have developed a certain perception of the character of Link and the series as a whole and wish for them to conform to their viewpoint and so they look for reasoning and proof, lore, etc to validate and justify their viewpoint and discredit opposing ones.

The point is that if your argument is that there needs to be a sort of continuity between Links, Nintendo clearly does not agree with you, if its actions are reflective of their beliefs. WW Link is far more jarring than female Link ever could be, and we can certainly see how jarring it was based on the amount of utter hate the game received pre-release.

well when I saw the WW reveal back in SpaceWorld there was never a moment in my mind were I though did they make Link a girl, I always saw a male boy, and so did the majority of people since I never saw in any magazine or site people doubting his gender

That is a demonstration of bias, not of a "clear" maleness to the character. I'm asking what about that image suggests maleness. I mean, of course no one is going to ask whether Link is a girl, because it's never been an issue. It only is happening now because Link looks a little more feminine, and the industry is a lot different than it was 15 years ago.
 
Both WW and TP Link are clearly male , how can you fail to see how a girl would be different? It doesn't matter though the creator of the character already said male Link is his vision of the character for the mainline series that makes any further debate of this topic pointless
What makes WW Link there more obviously male than Tetra? Imagine someone who has no idea who those characters are.
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Have any of you complainers ever created anything that's meaningful to you? Working in a creative field myself, in a system where there are always revisions and edits and legal restrictions that water down the original vision of my projects (due to so many clients and partners having a stake and thus say in what I do), always having to cater your vision to the whims of others, who have had nothing to do with the creative process and heavy workload it requires in the first place, can be incredibly frustrating.

How much more so must that frustration be when you're a company like Nintendo, built on recapturing the feeling of childlike wonder for people from every walk of life the world over?

If they were actually being sexist and anti-woman, there would be every reason to complain and raise up arms. But guess what! They absolutely aren't. The organizations's output has had a steady increase in inclusivity over the past decade, and that's on top of their already well-known "accessible fun for everyone of all ages" angle (which they've been pulling off with consistent success for over thirty years).

Since E3, so many self-appointed mind-readers have slithered out of the woodwork. To think you're some wizened and just guru, that TOTALLY KNOWS MIYAMOTO AND NINTENDO ARE SEXIST because they're keeping a recognizable brand juggernaut of a character the same sex he has been since before you were even born, is some of the most egregious and embarrassing delusional sense of self-importance I've ever seen in the realm of Nintendo discussions.

Link could be a girl in a game some day in terms of the lore and the canon of the Zelda series. It would be neat, and it probably won't happen.

That doesn't mean you're a noble hero when you ride your high moral horse and lob insults and accusations at a person and at a development team that has created far more happiness in the world than your deepest fantasies are even capable of conceiving. The horse you are riding only exists in your head, because it certainly doesn't exist in reality.

Breath of the Wild will spark the expressive imagination and draw out raw joy in millions of people worldwide. Take a step back and stop trying to diminish that accomplishment because you have some misplaced understanding about what social equality actually means.
 
How exactly is Toon Link vs TP Link any different than say Classic Sonic vs Modern Sonic? I don't get how the same basic character, a blond white elf boy in green, is somehow not the exact same thing when the art style is changed.

Heck they don't even look that different.
What makes Link there more obviously male than Tetra? Imagine someone who has no idea who those characters are.
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If you actually compare the various girls around Links age to Link you notice a lot small things that are added to make the female characters stand out more, like smaller feet/hands, diminished eyebrows, more angular eyes, thinner torsos, so on and so on. Of course if you take a young boy and a young girl and only those two things and show someone unfamiliar with the specific art style those two characters, of course they'd be a little confused as to what gender one of them may or may not be.

But to be fair, if someone didn't know for example who Sonic was, convincing them he was a she would be just as easy.
 
Uhhh...sorry, I don't mean to insult ya. But I mean, for a while there I felt like I was speaking a foreign language. I feel like what I was typing was way different than what you were reading.

No offense taken. Even if I can't relate to feeling the way you do I can at least appreciate that it's an important issue to some people.

Just bear in mind that there's people who are just as passionate about the series as you and have played it just as long who either want a female main character or don't care much one way or the other. No need to demand justifications, or call requests unreasonable.

You have a massive back catalogue of games with a male Link. Just keep in perspective how much it would really effect you if the fans who want a female character got their way for one game.
 
How exactly is Toon Link vs TP Link any different than say Classic Sonic vs Modern Sonic? I don't get how the same basic character, a blond white elf boy in green, is somehow not the exact same thing when the art style is changed.

Heck they don't even look that different.

What happens when you change the hair and tunic color of Wind Waker Link? What other qualities does he share with TP Link?
 
The point is that if your argument is that there needs to be a sort of continuity between Links, Nintendo clearly does not agree with you, if its actions are reflective of their beliefs. WW Link is far more jarring than female Link ever could be, and we can certainly see how jarring it was based on the amount of utter hate the game received pre-release.

Their is a continuity between Links though, a change in art style isn't a change in features. If you take Majora's Mask Link and drop him in Wind Waker's art style you get Wind Waker Link.
 
Their is a continuity between Links though, a change in art style isn't a change in features. If you take Majora's Mask Link and drop him in Wind Waker's art style you get Wind Waker Link.

But Wind Waker Link is gender ambiguous, and thus could be called a girl and it wouldn't sound weird at all design wise. If that's the case, where is the lack of continuity?
 
But Wind Waker Link is gender ambiguous, and thus could be called a girl and it wouldn't sound weird at all design wise. If that's the case, where is the lack of continuity?

You mean with a female Link? I didn't say a female Link would look incredibly different, just that all Links sense the 3D era look more or less the same art style not withstanding.

The next Zelda should be a boy, why not.

I know what you're saying, and I think using lore to inform game design is stupid sense Nintendo is known for finishing game play and writing the story around it, but many will say Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess hylia, and as a "goddess" can't be male.

Of course her chosen hero was male, but he can change genders, because reasons.

Essentially just say what you want, leave lore out of it.
 
The point is that if your argument is that there needs to be a sort of continuity between Links, Nintendo clearly does not agree with you, if its actions are reflective of their beliefs. WW Link is far more jarring than female Link ever could be, and we can certainly see how jarring it was based on the amount of utter hate the game received pre-release.

Again that depends on the person. To you it might be more jarring, but not to others as they might place less importance on the art style when it comes to the series and character identity. There was certainly a vocal dissatisfaction with WW, but this is the internet that's nothing new, so I don't think anyone can say with any certainty if that was a dissatisfaction held by most fans of the series or just a vocal minority. I had no issues with it at the time and the game still sold nearly 6 million copies.
 
No offense taken. Even if I can't relate to feeling the way you do I can at least appreciate that it's an important issue to some people.

Just bear in mind that there's people who are just as passionate about the series as you and have played it just as long who either want a female main character or don't care much one way or the other. No need to demand justifications, or call requests unreasonable.

You have a massive back catalogue of games with a male Link. Just keep in perspective how much it would really effect you if the fans who want a female character got their way for one game.

well I prefer that Link stay the way he is. I don't really think it's unreasonable to want to have those fans settle with Zelda as that "female character."

But either way sorry for the arguing.
 
Again that depends on the person. To you it might be more jarring, but not to others as they might place less importance on the art style when it comes to the series and character identity. There was certainly a vocal dissatisfaction with WW, but this is the internet that's nothing new, so I don't think anyone can say with any certainty if that was a dissatisfaction held by most fans of the series or just a vocal minority. I had no issues with it at the time and the game still sold nearly 6 million copies.

Again, it's not relevant because there ARE people who were jarred by Wind Waker Link. If the argument that female Link can't be done because it'd be too jarring, then the argument is that some people's "comfort" is more valuable than others
 
The next Zelda should be a boy, why not.
They'd have to change the name since the name is given to the Princess. Like how Tetra had a different name cause she wasn't born into the Hyrule's Royalty like the past Zeldas. But sure.
 
Again, it's not relevant because there ARE people who were jarred by Wind Waker Link. If the argument that female Link can't be done because it'd be too jarring, then the argument is that some people's "comfort" is more valuable than others

I think the counter argument is that no one is uncomfortable with a male Link, Zelda already has tons of female fans who have no issue playing as male Link.

Also I doubt we'll see a Wind Waker level shift again, that one bit Nintendo in the ass.
 
wouldve just been better if they said from the get-go that Link is not an avatar and therefore will always be male. The whole balance of the triforce excuse is just stupid.
 
I think the counter argument is that no one is uncomfortable with a male Link, Zelda already has tons of female fans who have no issue playing as male Link.

Also I doubt we'll see a Wind Waker level shift again, that one bit Nintendo in the ass.

That isn't relevant to continuity. If you have to say "Link has to have continuity, except for this and this and this and...", Link pretty darn clearly has no need for continuity. It's an invented excuse that handwaves every example of discontinuity.
 
wouldve just been better if they said from the get-go that Link is not an avatar and therefore will always be male. The whole balance of the triforce excuse is just stupid.
Even without being an avatar, that doesn't mean all Links will be male. Link hasn't been a singular character since Link to the Past.
 
Even without being an avatar, that doesn't mean all Links will be male. Link hasn't been a singular character since Link to the Past.

I'm kinda curious how many of ya consider this to be important to Nintendo. I mean, I've never seen anyone pay more attention to the idea of there being multiple Links than in this debate.

I don't even think Aonuma or Miyamoto have ever talked about it.
Zelda is much better than a female Link actually :P
Then why are we arguing over a fem Link? Even Aonuma said that Zelda would be better than changing Link.
 
That isn't relevant to continuity. If you have to say "Link has to have continuity, except for this and this and this and...", Link pretty darn clearly has no need for continuity. It's an invented excuse that handwaves every example of discontinuity.

But my argument is still that the Wind Waker design isn't out of continuity with the others, it's just a different art style.

Link doesn't look significantly different in Wind Waker and hasn't really changed outside of art style switches sense the games jumped to 3D.
 
A game about the balance of the Triforce being off due to Link being not as the prophesies fortold and the quest to stop the world being torn apart would be way more interesting than the tired "we have to save Zelda from Ganon!" plotline, Miyamoto.
 
Again, it's not relevant because there ARE people who were jarred by Wind Waker Link. If the argument that female Link can't be done because it'd be too jarring, then the argument is that some people's "comfort" is more valuable than others

Yeah that would be dumb. Doesn't really change the fact that people still have feelings one way or the other. Some group is always going to be dissatisfied with the direction they go. Whether it's over Link's gender or because he's not left handed or because they used midi music again. All you can do is hope your viewpoint is the one Nintendo agrees with.

There's no reason there can or cannot be a female Link, at all. There's no reason it has to happen or that it must never happen. People will lobby for or against it and Nintendo will either listen or not to that feedback. It would be nice if people were just honest about this rather than creating thread after thread arguing over the same irrelevant nonsense trying to beat the opposition in a fight that neither matters, is productive or informative, or even acknowledges and accepts the fact that different people view and develop connections with media differently.
 
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This is Nintendo's mess to fix, they should have spoken out about this ages ago, stating they want Link to be male because that's what they feel like. Not this bs about gender representation in the Triforce, or them not knowing what Link would do if Zelda isn't kidnapped. The Emily thing is unfortunate, but they haven't exactly handled it well.

They already fixed it. It was a day or two after E3 that those silly quotes came out from a likely puzzled Aonuma and since then there have been straightforward explanations. But the Female Link fans keep going back to that and how Nintendo needs to fix... things. Tomorrow they could officially announce the Hero is a male spirit reborn every generation as a near lookalike male each time and we would still have people bringing up how Nintendo didn't say the right things once.

The notion that Wind Waker Link is clearly male is a lie of epic proportions. Can you explain the clarity of his gender?

Anyway, Platy was just pointing out how terrible the arguments that Link needs to retain a consistency between iterations, because the very series he is in explicitly proves otherwise.

Link is clearly male in WW. There is really nothing to be argued there. He is the Hero of Winds and meets his male equivalent predecessor, the Hero of Time. WTF goes on in these threads where people throw logic and facts out the window?

Better idea - two games, just like the Oracles with the same engine (maybe use the ALBW engine). Link's game would focus more on combat, while Zelda's game is more puzzle-based, just like the two Oracles.

This is demeaning and pandering to the stereotype that girls and games starring girls need to be puzzle-based. Hard pass on your terrible idea. Sheik kicking ass is a much more powerful idea.
 
Yes, but Link aesthetically has always been the same. The only difference has been his age.
Considering how WW Link could easily be called a girl and you wouldn't have to change the look, and considering how easily people were able to believe BotW Link was a woman, it wouldn't take any effort at all to keep the aesthetic the same and have Link be a woman.


Link is clearly male in WW. There is really nothing to be argued there. He is the Hero of Winds and meets his male equivalent predecessor, the Hero of Time. WTF goes on in these threads where people throw logic and facts out the window?
The point was that artistically if one didn't know Link was a boy in the story, one could easily use the same image and say it's a girl. Look at the images I posted above of Link and Tetra. What about them defines their gender in those picture?
 
Im fine with that. I'd prefer having Zelda finally have her own actual Nintendo made game as opposed to a female Link. Zelda is really more in need of the spotlight. The typical damsel finally taking the reigns and fighting back l, at least in a way the player gets to experience.
 
Considering how WW Link could easily be called a girl and you wouldn't have to change the look, and considering how easily people were able to believe BotW Link was a woman, it wouldn't take any effort at all to keep the aesthetic the same and have Link be a woman.

I posted this earlier:

I also need to add that people saying Link being female isn't a stretch because he's already androgynous and Nintendo may as well "commit" or "go all the way", because this supposedly makes him practically a girl and girls cosplay as him, is an atrocious and insulting argument to males with feminine or androgynous features. Link isn't a step away from being a woman just because he is a slim guy with soft features. Now that's what I consider conservative and narrow minded. This aspect of the discussion needs to die.
 
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2015/06/30/e3-2015-why-you-cant-play-as-a-woman-in-zelda-tri-force-heroes

IGN: I'm curious if, in this game, players will have a choice between a male avatar or a female avatar, especially since the story doesn't seem tied to a specific gender?

Hiromasa Shikata: I’m going to tell you a little bit about the story quickly and we'll circle around, here. There's this kingdom, an event happens, and the king needs heroes. So, he puts out a call for heroes to gather and one of those is this guy Link. He sees this audition, basically, ‘Heroes needed; apply here.’ And, that's the start of his adventure.

The story calls for this sort of legend/prophecy where heroes will come together to help solve a problem. And in that, they are male characters. So, because the game is set with that as the story background, you cannot choose a gender; you are a male character.

IGN: I guess I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't express some slight disappointment with that, especially because there is a Zelda outfit Link wears in the game. It just feels like it's one step closer to giving the Zelda series' female audience the chance to explore that universe from another perspective.

Shikata: Understood. I understand what you're saying, and just as general information, we do have a lot of female staff members who are playing this game and enjoying it. It doesn't seem to be a big issue to them. They still are getting emotional investment in this game. And to be honest, Link isn't the most masculine of guys in the world, depending on how you want to project yourself into the character.
 
Yes, but Link aesthetically has always been the same. The only difference has been his age.

Not sure what about the aesthetic would change with any significance.

You see plenty of women dressing up as Link and no one is batting an eye. Plenty of people believed BotW's Link could be a girl. Even Aonuma was quoted saying they design Link to intentionally look androgynous... only to follow it up with "Oh but he's definitely a boy. No two ways about it, he's a boy. But 'y'know, we make him look androgynous so anyone can relate... BUT HE'S DEFINITELY A BOY."
 
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