……forgetit
Member
The only good thing that came out of all of this is that people were reminded not to listen to Emily Rogers, we'd been down this road before guys, let's not pretend she's credible again.
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Miyamoto: In mainline Zeldas, Link will always be the hero, will consider S spin-offs
- Thread starter axisofweevils
- Start date
Captain Europe
Member
Yeah, and Paper Mario lives in a magical story book in the Mushroom Kingdom which holds stories about said Mushroom Kingdom. Totally the same situation yo.
Not at all, but Nintendo was coy about Link's gender and played around with Linkle and made her a whole thing. Obviously people are gonna have certain expectations. And Emily threw oil on top of the fire, that was unfortunate for Nintendo.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I'll never stop!
But seriously, seeing this debate continue to rage on even after these statements means it probably never going away.
Which in my opinion is awesome.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Best reason I can manage is that Zelda representing wisdom tends to already know everything about the world and conflicts. Link only pops up once her efforts have been bested.
So Nintendo tends to view her as exposition for Link.
Miyamoto did not said that he needs to be male.
They did said once that he was left handed ... but in twilight they changed to right handed to fit better with his AVATAR OF THE PLAYER role, which means that soon we will have a proportion of Links that are left handed and right handed that fits the player base.... so why not do the same to the other "unchangeable traits of link" like being a boy or the green tunic in the new game ?
Mango The Magician
Banned
Two different versions of the same character both with slight variations in design coexisting vs multiple different versions of the same character some with slight variations in design others 100% identical all existing in the same history and world.
Yeah they're totally not the same.
They were never coy about his gender stop this. I was in the thread back in 2014 when Aonuma confirmed, a day and half after their press conference that Link was male. The only person you have to blame for this is Emily and yourselves.
I like the sounds of more spinoffs. I'd be willing to eat crow if a Sheik game happens. I had been adamant that it likely wouldn't happen because they had already moved on and the characters in a Zelda title are usually one offs meant only for the one game. That and it's been years since OoT was made. But with all the talk, maybe it one day will and I'd love to play it.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Post like this are why it's awesome. I would not engage in threads that you don't like the topic of.
……forgetit
Member
They changed it because most people are right handed.
And that was ONLY for the Wii version.
The Gamecube version Link is Left handed.
It was a gameplay decision.
Usually Nintendo makes their choices based on that over cosmetic.
perfectchaos007
Member
Zelda is already the hero protagonist. If she wasn't, the games would be called The Legend of Link.
Ryouji Gunblade
Member
Something, something mascots. Disregard the fact that male Link could still be on the cover and advertisements.
ClayKavalier
Banned
What exactly is the criteria to decide whether something is one or the other? Besides "Rich! is personally cool with it."
Ways that female Link and cel-shading are similar:
- They both don't inherently affect gameplay (thus they are "stylistic" decisions that have no bearing on the actual content)
- They aren't "necessary." The exact same gameplay can be presented with a male or female character, or with a cartoony or realistic art style
- Both buck the trend of established conventions of the series. As such, both provoke negative backlash from long-time fans
Ways that female Link and cel-shading are dissimilar:
- Making Link female is not literally the same thing as making a game cel-shaded
Does the art style really change with nearly every game? Obviously the visuals look very different between games due to changes in technology, but I'd say there's "realistic" games (Ocarina, Majora, Twilight Princess), "cartoony" games (Wind Waker, DS games) and the newer games are in between (Skyward Sword, BotW). Wind Waker is the biggest departure in graphical style between games by a huge margin.
What has changed in the series?
Controls. Following your logic Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword shouldn't have been made the way they were because traditional controls were a constant in the series before they were made. Same with the touchscreen-controlled DS games.
The perspective. There wasn't a 3D Zelda before Ocarina. How many games does a series have to have before its constants become set in stone?
The extent to which Link is a "character." The guy was a blank slate until recently. What justification has Nintendo offered for this change? It certainly does not improve the actual gameplay so they must have a damn good reason to include it, right?
Think I'm pretty much done arguing with you since it's pretty clear we just fundamentally disagree on this. I don't see any value in defending the status quo just for the sake of preserving the status quo. "It's always been this way for thirty years, why change it?" How boring.
Before this E3 I wouldn't have believed I'd ever be remotely interested in another God of War game. But instead of remaking the same game for decades because you need to carefully justify fixing what ain't broke they completely reimagined the game and came up with something that looks really cool. Seeing the same creativity applied to other series that have stayed the same for a long time is really exciting to me, and as I said I just don't see the value in keeping things the same just because.
Mango The Magician
Banned
I haven't played either HW, but I only have a OG 3DS, does HWL preform at least ok on it? As I would like to play it, and even though I hate the idea of changing Link to a girl, I do like what they've done with Linkle.
And Link is now Right Handed on Breath of the Wild that features ZERO motion controls.
So if they find my logic that Zelda sidequests makes much more sense if you are a girl than it will be a gameplay decision that will stick forever yaay ! =D
MUCH BETTER than my idea of only 20% of links being girl
Changing the hand that holds the sword is minor compared to a gender change which as ridiculous as it seems could alienate a lot of fans
The Harry Potter play recently cast a black woman as Hermione, and a bunch of fans lost their shit because Hermione has always been white and these fans grew up with a white Hermione, and then JK Rowling called them out as racists and told them to go to hell.
ClayKavalier
Banned
Why it would alienate a lot of fans ?
Why THIS CHANGE in specific in the sea of "breaking the form" of the last 3 zeldas ?
Again, changing the protagonist would be like replacing Harry Potter or James Bond with a female person. Why would you want that? Why not have a new series instead of replacing the protagonist just for the sake of doing so? And if you are saying he wouldn't be replaced, he'd just be transgender, what would be the argument for that change? Normally, when people argue for a drastic change such as having a transgender/female Link, there should be an argument. Yet, most posts are either "I want it" or "I find it more immersive".
Masked Man
I said wow
Based on what a couple of industry friends have told me, there probably won't be many huge shakeups (if any) while Miyamoto is still around. Once he's gone, however, I expect a lot more innovation on the horizon.
Happy to hear it. Really sick of the whole female Link thing. It is what it is and what the people who made the series want it to be. If adding a female hero was Nintendo's choice it would be one thing but doing it because they were pressured into it would have cheapened the whole thing imo.
……forgetit
Member
If you're in Europe there's a demo, but from what I hear it's pretty bad on OG 3ds, I have a new 3ds. What you need to know is
Linkle is not the chosen hero, she's slightly delusional and always shows up to things after the important stuff happens, but ends up doing some good along the way.
Link is an established character and brand to millions, not a blank avatar. Nintendo has very powerful incentives to retain this character for the same reasons the next Mario game will be Super Mario Bros and not Super Rigoberto Triplets.
It's important to bring sales into the discussion because it was the overriding factor into the decline of the series. Saying Nintendo "killed" their only female-led franchise (it had nothing to do with her femaleness, Zelda would have been fucked too if it did Metroid numbers) and your implication that they mistreated their female hero series is simply untrue.
Metroid became B level only after THREE games (FIVE if counting GBA) with top-fucking-tier production values equaling the best of Zelda and Mario, underperformed and forced them reevaluate why the sales weren't there. I'm absolutely bewildered that anyone would think Nintendo didn't try everything to make Metroid into a smash hit series with the public. You don't know that Metroid is dead and I'd say it's not. Federation Force is likely part stage 1 of a roadmap to introduce the Metroid universe to both younger and more mainstream gaming audiences before rebooting into a new mainline game that these new fans will want to play along with longtime fans. Metroid Prime 4 would have had lukewarm sales at best.
Yeah they changed him after, I totally thought they would revert him back to Left Handed.
as Miyamoto is Left Handed, and that's the reason why.
Link is Miyamoto,
just as Spider-Man is Stan Lee.
This quote has ZERO to do with female Link.
It has EVERYTHING to do with Zelda playable in a main series Zelda game
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
The exact same reason not having a female Link alienates fans.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
I doubt she called them racists for it, but if she did that makes her pretty damn stupid to do so. People in today's society seem to lack basic common sense where wanting a character to stay true to who they are = dumb you hate x things/people narrative that follows. Thankfully that was a musical because if they end up making an actual movie and pull that nonsense, I would be livid.
……forgetit
Member
The quotes earlier pretty much combine to say "no female lead" in zelda though. The dream is pretty much dead.
I fail to see who a girl in a green tunic would be less retaining than the twilight->wind waker diference
Having a girl link does not erase the 11 unique links that came before. Never having a girl link erases girl link
Bruno_Arrais85
Member
everyday a topic like this.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Except Harry Potter is always the same Harry Potter. It's not a dozen Harry Potters born over thousands of years. Same with James bond. None of the previous Links would be replaced, they'd all still have existed in their own times. But this new one, one of many many Links through out history would have been born a girl, just as all those others had been born a guy.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Technically we have the Classic art style with the original games and ALBW, the toon style and the modern style. The art style has never been a constant though, while Link, through all those art styles, has. Which was my point.
Either way though, we'll have to agree to disagree, that said the constant sarcastic and holier than thou tone I read off ya isn't doing you any favors.
Actually, only SS and BotW. PH, ST, ALBW, TFH, all keep the left hand.
I already knew her story, I was just curious how it preformed. Though her story makes me like her more. A Playable female is fine with me, but changing a character as iconic as Link is just asinine.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I do have to say, it is a right annoyance when people bring up the argument that Link can't be a girl because of recognizability. And when people bring up the differences between TP and TWW, apparently it's okay because "hey art styles change." That's true, but if recognizability was that important, they wouldn't change that drastically.
That's exactly why people aren't satisfied with the compromise of "Zelda can be the hero... in a spinoff."
NipplesAndToes23
Member
You playinl, right?
Captain Europe
Member
Except he isn't a reincarnation of Mario, but let's agree to disagree.
Yes, but what was said before that day? I remember them saying stuff like it being a possibility that it's someone else and not Link. They were definitely playing around with something.
Obviously it started somewhere, ask yourself, why are people asking for a female Link and not female Mario? It didn't start with Emily, she only threw oil on the fire, this was a thing way before what she said.
There's a reason this is happening to this franchise and not different one.
I know she's not actually Link, but they did kind of make her a thing in a Direct IMO.
This is Nintendo's mess to fix, they should have spoken out about this ages ago, stating they want Link to be male because that's what they feel like. Not this bs about gender representation in the Triforce, or them not knowing what Link would do if Zelda isn't kidnapped. The Emily thing is unfortunate, but they haven't exactly handled it well.
ClayKavalier
Banned
Why not? And again, personally I don't mind too much one way or the other, by why is this some earth-shattering thing to you?
If I read a new story like Harry Potter is female in the new book I'd think "Huh, OK. Wonder what that will turn out like." I can't relate to someone who would have a reaction like "Oh my God! This violates the very nature of Zelda' concept of reincarnation!!"
If people want a female Link, good for them. If people don't, good for them too. But there's been plenty of male Links. Having a Zelda game with a female protagonist isn't the end of the world.
Did you have the same reaction when people argued over the art style of the game? "Tell me exactly why you want the next game to go back to having realistic graphics, and "I want it" doesn't count." Somehow I doubt it.
ClayKavalier
Banned
And your arbitrary stubbornness isn't doing you any favors.
But we both like Zelda enough to waste a bunch of time posting about it on GAF so hey, we have that in common =)
Edit: sorry for the DP.
Also, I don't think I've been sarcastic.
……forgetit
Member
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Zelda being the hero is fine for me. Personally if I was Nintendo, I would just create a badass new female character, but playing as Zelda could be cool as well. I think what Nintendo needs to do is make a great Zelda game first after what I played on my Wii, but that's another story. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Playing about what?
Female Link, male Samus, Nintendo needs an else world type of game lineup.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Also the evolution of Link is kind of like Superman art style wise. You've got:
vs.
Uncanny
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vs.
Uncanny
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Apple, Orange.
toddhunter
Member
Two modes. Link saves Zelda and the other mode is Zelda saves Link.
All you need to do is swap the characters. You don't need to re-write the story, you don't have to give them different powers, you just swap the models over.
If people argue against that, or consider not giving the option is "good", there is really something wrong.
All you need to do is swap the characters. You don't need to re-write the story, you don't have to give them different powers, you just swap the models over.
If people argue against that, or consider not giving the option is "good", there is really something wrong.
