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Miyamoto: In mainline Zeldas, Link will always be the hero, will consider S spin-offs
- Thread starter axisofweevils
- Start date
There is a semantics argument that gets used often. Its that
Link isn't really a character. So Link being male or female isn't changing a character at all because Link isn't a character. It's a circular mess of a conversation that isn't made in earnest and doesn't lead anywhere; but has juuuust enough forward motion to carry threads for an infinite amount of time. That's what you are walking into here.
Both suck. If people were half as vocal about a playable Zelda as they were about Female Link we might not be in this situation.
ClayKavalier
Banned
What did Wind Waker being cel-shaded change?
Comic books have had this happen to? What were the ramifications of Thor being a woman?
He created the character.
He has more say than anyone else on this earth. I'm flabbergasted how people on the internet seem to think they have a god given right to demand these things.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Is it? I'm sure all creators harbor fairly strong feelings towards their creations, especially when they've had decades of iterations and they've taken backseats in their current development.
So far? You and others wrongly expecting that the same situation would certainly occur in other specific mediums and character situations.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Why should the creator of a character conceive or consider changing said characters gender? It's his character, he made it, what he wants said character to be, it is.
Mango The Magician
Banned
It was my understanding that FemThor was a different character that existed alongside thor, than the traditional thor, why compare the two?
Edit: was trying to merge this, my bad.
I also need to add that people saying Link being female isn't a stretch because he's already androgynous and Nintendo may as well "commit" or "go all the way", because this supposedly makes him practically a girl and girls cosplay as him, is an atrocious and insulting argument to males with feminine or androgynous features. Link isn't a step away from being a woman just because he is a slim guy with soft features. Now that's what I consider conservative and narrow minded. This aspect of the discussion needs to die.
Agreed. Debating Nintendo's idea of reincarnation and whether it's right or wrong for the series is pointless navel gazing.
Agreed. Debating Nintendo's idea of reincarnation and whether it's right or wrong for the series is pointless navel gazing.
Female character as lead of God of War 4. Why not? Let's harass Balrog and Studhill.
ClayKavalier
Banned
So if plenty of people want male Link that's reason enough to keep him male, but if plenty of people want a female Link it doesn't matter since it's not necessary? Do I have that right or am I missing something?
I can also extrapolate from my personal experience with corporate culture and assume that no one would want to directly contradict something a superior said and that any comments that come from the team through management should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
Didn't mean to get metaphysical, just curious as to why you're so opinionated on something that really doesn't have any effect on you. If it doesn't matter if Link is a girl why are you spending so much time defending the decision to keep him male?
Have the disastrous sales decline and mass alienation of fans that you and others who arbitrarily defend the status quo predict come to pass?
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
Yeah, if every developer conceited to every demand of every irrational fan, we'd have a lot of shit games. Not saying that female Link would be shitty, but creators are allowed to say "No". It doesnt make them sexist or shitty to their fans. It just means that you cant always get what you want and that's okay.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Those people's opinions matter, but in my eyes, the people who have been supporting the series since day one, the people that like Link, the people, the male, female, trans, and so many more types of fans that made the Link amiibo the best selling amiibo in the us for three years straight matter more, as they have something to lose in this. The people who want to change Link don't have anything to lose. Still a batgirl like character, Linkle, or a similar compromise that isn't a gender select as Link is a character wouldn't hurt.
Also, it matters to me as I like Link, I don't want him changed. I don't want a fem Mario and I don't want a male Judy Hopps, that's all there is to my stance, I don't get why that's hard to understand.
DecoReturns
Member
I think a Tetra game could work. Shes one of the few Zeldas that does stuff while Link is saving the world/Hyrule.
Plus shes cooler then Sheik
Plus shes cooler then Sheik
ClayKavalier
Banned
That'd be a pretty boring forum if people weren't allowed to express any discontent with anything.
Or would grievances that you agree with be allowed?
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Sadly many would love that.
Critical thought is for some reason detested in gaming.
It's hard to understand because your reasons don't make any sense.
Why would it be a boring forum couse of that?
Problem is it ends up consuming discussion about actually playing games. It's exhausting.
Sheik would probably have all the gameplay designed around the fact that they're pretty much a magical ninja.
Would be interesting to see Nintendo tackle that type of game.
This thread should be about the cool possibilities of a Sheik game,
instead it's back to changing a character that Nintendo doesn't want to change.
You're discontent with a game because the creator doesn't want to change the main character that they've had for 30 years?
Mango The Magician
Banned
What points, exactly? As by "my stance" I was referring to my personal opinion, I don't see how a opinion can't make sense.
Link is a male and will always be the Hero of time. The creator of Zelda, the president of Nintendo, and almost everyone involved with the series has spoken on it. Give it up. Link has 30+ years now as a male and his story is interconnected.
You can keep asking but at this point it honestly feels like pissing in the wind.
ClayKavalier
Banned
What does anyone have to lose? That's what I don't understand. Your post reads like satire to me. "They have something to lose in this." And what is that, exactly?
I feel like we keep getting off the same page because people on both sides are lumping all of the other sides opinion together and putting words in each others' mouths, but I agree that a Zelda-focused game or a game with Linkle or some other character would be equivalent to a female Link. If people specifically want a female Link and wouldn't be satisfied with anything else, I agree that that's ridiculous.
But the reason I specify "female Link" in my posts is because that's what I would want it to feel like. A Legend of Zelda game with a female lead. Not a handheld game, not a spinoff with different gameplay, but a proper, mainline Zelda with a playable woman.
And just for the record I can't wait to play Breath of the Wild, and the main character's gender will never be a deciding factor for whether or not I'll play a Zelda game. I do think that a female character could be a cool breath of air depending on how it's handled though (for example the idea someone posted of the main character being a Gerudo with Ganon still being the only remaining male could be really interesting), and I truly fail to see why anyone is getting defensive over the idea.
Not really, should have worded that more carefully. Imagine I'd posted "literally any suggestion" instead of discontent.
DecoReturns
Member
But Pirates man!
Seriously tho, A Sheik game will mostly likely be better and easier to make, I just really want another Wind Waker game.
Sheik or Tetra, day 1 for me if it ever happens
Mango The Magician
Banned
...a character they like would be changed. How is that hard to understand? The series staying the same doesn't change a 30 year old character, the opposite does. It's a simple point.
ClayKavalier
Banned
... So what? How does that affect them? If I move to a new home I have something to lose because I may miss my old home. If I play games all night instead of studying I have something to lose because I may compromise my future prospects. If I fall in love I have something to lose because the feelings may not be mutual, or may change over time.
What do I have to lose if a game character is a girl?
Captain Europe
Member
Not to mention, most people wanting this just want it as a mere option. No one is getting replaced.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Miyamoto ain't shit. Series named after the girl and she can't even star in her own game?
NEGRO BYE!
NEGRO BYE!
Mango The Magician
Banned
:l
Brah, stop reading in-between the lines. This is a thirty year old character that people have literally grown up with. Him being changed won't cause anyone to have a stroke but it does and could effect people. Just because it wouldn't effect them to the utmost extreme doesn't mean the opinions and feelings of those who prefer Link stay the way he is should go unheard.
That opens a different can of worms. Link has moved far beyond a player character and is likely not even namable in this game. Giving the player agency over his design is like giving the player agency over Marios design.
This is more than a grievance like with the complaints against Might No 9. This is mounting pressure against a dev to entirely alter the lore and artistic direction they chose for their game. Dissecting whether any and every reason is supposedly good enough to meet a moving goalpost of personal satisfaction.
When Cuphead previews were coming out, someone was vocal about how it should have been an RPG, just hammering on this POV. In a thread that the dev was reading and posting in. This is what this Fem Zelda thing has become. Please do Thing you don't wanna do and never intended to do because I want it.
Link is a 30-year old brand. You don't throw that away or change it on a whim. Nintendo is still a business and the mainstream Zelda fanbase has strong attachment to Link the character. If none of this mattered, ALBW would have starred Ravio. But millions of people aren't drawn to the series to play as Ravio or Impa or Linkle or Gerudo Woman. This is why it makes sense to keep the brand strong and build up a female character in a strong spin-off series. Female Link is a selfish, poorly conceived idea by fans with no comprehension that Nintendo needs to maintain their mascots.
ClayKavalier
Banned
So to what extent would it effect them? I don't get your point.
We can't make this change! It would effect people!
But don't be ridiculous, it wouldn't REALLY effect them.
It would effect them just enough that Link should always be male, but at the same time isn't really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. If only it affected people slightly less, we wouldn't have this huge argument about the whole thing.
Regardless, I'm happy Nintendo didn't give in. Link will stay link and that's all there is to it.
The only downside is that this discussion will carry on going round in circles and shitting up every possibility of talking about the game until the next Zelda. Which will likely be released around 2022. Sigh.
The only downside is that this discussion will carry on going round in circles and shitting up every possibility of talking about the game until the next Zelda. Which will likely be released around 2022. Sigh.
Miyamoto's active hostility towards growing or evolving Nintendo IPs continue.
...
Sometimes I feel like the only changes are made in spite of his efforts.
I will patiently wait for Zelda to be the hero of her namesake series. Nintendo doesn't need my money and I don't need their tired design staples.
...
Sometimes I feel like the only changes are made in spite of his efforts.
I will patiently wait for Zelda to be the hero of her namesake series. Nintendo doesn't need my money and I don't need their tired design staples.
E_Darkness
Member
I'd only accept a Sheik game if Impa was also playable.
How would a female Link bring a fresh breath? Because before I read that Link is just an avatar who doesn't speak. With the Gerudo thing I could see at least the gameplay change, but with a female Link all I see is a cosmetic change, just because a vocal minority suddenly demands it in a "I want red to be called green" manner. But what's the relation between a female Link and a German as a main character?
Though I also don't see how anyone has anything to lose if Link was to become female. I just don't see any reasons for a change apart from gender agenda.
I would rather see a completely new Zelda spinoff with a proper female lead instead of just changing an established character. With a proper budget and all.
I'm still angry I cannot play as Metroid in the respective titles. Damn those ignorant people at Nintendo.
Mango The Magician
Banned
People wouldn't fall over and die if Sam Aran was a thing either you know. That's not a justification of such a change though.
I absolutely do not understand this way of thinking. The new Zelda looks to be the freshest and most original game in the series yet, and you are avoiding it because Zelda isn't playable or Link isn't a girl?
Your loss.
Looks more like a joke character. Seeing as they finally did evolve the series with this entry (and even Skyward Sword was pretty innovative), it looks more like a drive-by post than an argument.
ClayKavalier
Banned
Why does the change need justification? Again, what was the justification of cel-shading since you believe justifications for stylistic decisions are necessary?
Oh wait, cel-shading doesn't count because you don't personally have an issue with that. Only stylistic changes you personally don't appreciate get that level of scrutiny.
I basically agree with you. I just don't see what the big deal with a female link is. I agree, it basically wouldn't affect gameplay. It has potential to be interesting to the story, as we both agree with the Gerudo example. I'm sure professional writers could come up with other interesting takes on a female Link.
As I've said multiple times I don't personally care too much either way and will happily keep playing the games with a male Link. I just don't see the big deal.
If you're going to bring up vocal minorities, people insisting that Link must remain male are also that, a vocal minority. The vast majority of people who play the games likely haven't even thought about Link's gender to this extent. Everyone posting one way or the other in this thread is a vocal minority, as the majority of people who play games don't post on dedicated game forums.
Feel free to disprove me if you somehow have data that makes you feel confident that people who are interested in a female Link are significantly fewer than people who demand he remain male. Really silly for anyone to act like they have a majority opinion one way or the other though. In all likelihood a majority of people just don't care.
Changing link to be a girl isn't a stylistic change. It's fucking lunacy.
How did changing the art style replace the existing protagonist? It's more akin to James Bond getting a new actor.
This post is just hilarious on so many levels.
So, what you're arguing is that no change needs to be justified or to make sense, ever. Okay. The next Zelda game should be a platforming FPS where you play as a dog. Also, Laura Croft, Nathan Drake, and Master Chief should all get sex changes in their next games without any explanation. Just have it happen and call it a design choice.
It is clearly not a franchise of the same level as their heavy hitters, was handed to Team Ninja (and one can talk a lot about that game) and has not seen a release for many years. Nothing about that is revisionist. I have also no idea why you bring sales or market appeal into this, when I mentioned no such thing. Their only franchise with a female face on it (well, under the helmet) is dead in the water. Whether or not that is a sign of things is a different story.
While I am not saying because I think they want, but because the IDEA OF THE CHARACTER is asking for it and would be an awesome addition to a franchise with so many women fans
That said, Source on everyone spoken that link NEEDS to be male ?
Because I am pretty sure nobody said anything about it... the closest being the "triforce balance one" that is just "if link is a girl than zelda has to be a boy"
Captain Europe
Member
It doesn't open any can of worms, you enjoy the male Link and the canon you choose, while others will play as female Link. You won't be affected.
Again, Mario is always the same Mario, not comparable.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Oh my god...let me ask you something. What has always been in ever single Zelda game ever? Just as a quick run down:
-Swords
-a fantasy setting.
-The title of "The Legend of Zelda" or some form of it.
-weapons
-puzzles
-enemies
-hearts
and
-regular old male Link.
What changes with almost every game?
-The artstyle
How are those two things comparable?
Likewise, you really want to argue from that metaphysical perch don't you? I mean if Link's gender changing after thirty years needs no explanation, then no characters gender changing needs an explanation or justification.
Except for that time there was a real world one and one made of paper running around together.
Oh wait.