The whole point of forbidden mingdom was to make one of the guys favorite stories journey west more accessible to his children. Its a retelling of the story with him as our westener eyes into this world. No different then last samurai. Not really the same thing.
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Hollywood Reporter: Why Did Marvel and Dreamworks Whitewash Their Asian Characters?
- Thread starter vinnygambini
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Why should I have a problem posting pictures of stereotypes to prove to you that they exist? They weren't even the first pictures of sterotypes posted in this thread and I don't see you hassling anyone else. What's your problem?
Alex_Mexico
Member
Of course he is. Hollywood loves using minorities for background and supporting characters, no one is disputing that. Putting them in starring roles is the problem.
This assumes that only white people are Westerners.
freeofgreed
Member
I'm aware they exist, but their existence doesn't disprove the fact that Disney's art style is/was never something that was exclusive to their white characters, and them being white is definitely not why Tezuka was influenced by it.
And lol how am I hassling you? I am only responding to you because you keep responding/referencing me. You can easily block me/ignore me if you feel like I am being unfair/annoying. But I don't think anything I've said is especially egregious. You made a point that I disagreed with and I responded with why. Don't see how that's hassling.
DryEyeRelief
Member
I don't even understand what Blackhead is even talking about anymore.
What is his point?
What is his point?
I don't think people are saying it has to be a white person, but logically are the chances for people of color to be cast as slim as they are for any other movie.
well the guy who wrote it was white and american, so I supposed I should have elaborated.
That's not what you claimed, you said all disney's characters used that particular art style which is demonstrably false. So you're backtracking to something else.
Not something I'm arguing. I claimed Tezuka copied the white characters style. I didn't say he copied them specifically because they were white. And no, not that he thought they only applied to white characters, (obviously many of the characters Tezuka drew he referred to as Japanese).
I didn't mention you in that post you just replied to. Not sure why you have a problem only with me posting pictures of racist examples but not with anyone else.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
The guy that the story was based on said he was happy that they didn't just grab an Asian dude for the role at least without checking nationality. Like, the guy was Chinese and just wanted to make sure they didn't go and grab the nearest Japanese or Korean guy to fill the role. He just wanted a good actor, he didn't care about nailing the Chinese part.
Obviously, I think they failed on the 'good actor' part by a good bit, but there it is.
freeofgreed
Member
Yes, if you really want to nitpick, but idk what to tell you if you really think Disney's artstyle at the time was that varied to the point that the White characters were distinct enough to be the only ones copied. Those racist characters were the outliers not the norm. Tezuka could've easily have been just as influenced by Mickey Mouse then he was with Snow White.
And I'm saying the white human characters style wasn't that distinct enough for you to say that he only focused on that. See above.
Because you used it to try to argue for a frivolous point in a discussion with me specifically.
I know he did not mean it that way, but the way he casually phrases it in such a manner makes it seem that the default Western POV is white, and that type of thinking is stupid.
Case in point. American = White. There are so many diverse backgrounds in America that you can't just throw that out there and assume that American = White. If you want to say that the writer is white, go ahead and say that, but why add American to your argument.
And this is another problem. Too many white writers and not enough opportunities given to POC writers.
Ironically, white writers should have their material followed closely with white actors, but source material like GITS should be whitewashed.
I think you are pushing me too hard on this, and I get it, you are using my quote to push an admirable goal, but its largely unimportant to what I specifically typed out, even if it is relevant and good to the overall discussion of the topic.
You're trying to eat your cake and have it. You're arguing that the white human characters weren't distinct enough [from the athromorphic animals] for Tezuka to focus on them AND Tezuka was totally focused on the anthromorphic animals. You're implying that such a distinction would be important even though Walt Disney used the same style for the anthromorphic animals and the white characters to contrast with a different style for Asian people like Tezuka. Again:
Even if you believe that Tezuka only saw/was influenced by Mickey Mouse and Bambi but not Snow White (or other American animation like Betty Boop) there's a direct connection and influence between the way Mickey Mouse was drawn and white people drew white people
User 73706
Banned
ding ding ding
Valdfellgar
Banned
I've found it a real eye opener that so many anime fans (it's not just non fans, I'm in anime groups on Facebook who spout this crap) are drawn to anime yet refuse to acknowledge that the characters are Asian and instead push that they all look white. I find it hugely upsetting that there's this mental block.
DryEyeRelief
Member
I think it's easier for someone to conceptualize if they're a creative themselves. Consuming media vapidly isn't indicative of anything. That's why people make fun of weeaboos.
KonradLaw
Member
I think they more often make signifiers for non-japanese asians than they do for white people these days. White characters often look exactly like japanese ones and we're just told where they're from instead of shown. But when there's somebody chinese in the story the design usually makes it obvious from the start.
By way of analogy: some WASPs describe every hispanic looking person they see as a Mexican immigrant even if the person is dressed in slacks/shirt and speaks perfect English. They just assume that the person is not an American citizen. It's not so much a mental block or lack of creativity as desire not to look and confront assumptions.
(On the other hand, some white people insist they are colorblind and can't see race, so African-Americans, Asian-Americans etc are all the same to them. Again, there's an insistence of their privileged way of looking.)
DryEyeRelief
Member
It's more like Japanese people in anime are represented in a variety of hair colors. And "white" as a description can be used to describe a bunch of people with a variety of natural hair colors
hair colors
I'm laughing because these threads have convinced me that purple hair is some sort of anglo saxon feature or something.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Really? I don't think that's always true. Take Yakitate Japan
Normal characters:
American:
Shadowheart
Member
Thanks for sharing. I liked seeing the percentage of failed to carry movies. I always say writing to be the most important factor. Any actor, director, musician can be swiped. Everything revolves around the idea which takes the form of writing.
P.S. I don't know who is the primary target for that writing, so just in case, there is an actor's name misspelling: Indris Elba for Idris Elba. Word search to locate it.
He said "often". Still, I think the look more often than not, different. Aside from the blonde/blue eyes thing that seems to be going on often.
Well, at least the DCEU gives an asian actress a dignifie-
oooooOOOH
Bandit Keith disapproves. In America.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Well, at least the DCEU gives an asian actress a dignifie-
ooooh
Come on, it's not like anyone in that movie looks "dignified"
There's an Australian dude called Captain Boomerang on that team. I think they'll play the stereotypes somewhat self-aware.
My point is. That's the only eastern asian in the DCEU so far. I know that it's only two movies and a bunch of upcoming ones right now, but how many eastern asian DC heroes and villains do you know, they would use in the movies?
Mind you, the CW show had an asian hero too. It was... Katanna.
Just remembered, they at least had the General and his daugher on the island, but that's still not much and they didn't get to do that much.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Or in any movie or show.
I agree with the article that there are plenty of ways to avoid sidestepping ancient mystical old asian man stereotypes without resorting to white washing the character. If movie version of the ancient one was Asian, would it be offensive? If you kept everything about the comic version of the Ancient One the same and just changed the race, would it somehow make it not racist? If you you had Tilda Swinton dressed like Lo Pan from Big Trouble in Little China does that mean she's not an Asian stereotype? You can still have the asian mentor archetype without resorting to a frail fumanchu stroking old man.
Tilda Swinton is mainstream Hollywood's 'have your cake and eat it too' card to play. They can hire a white person while pretending they're casting in a really subversive way.
He also had virtually no input into the choice as he's stated, so his preference between various bad scenarios is kinda irrelevant. It's also not like the producers were eager to go the route of blindly casting a non-Chinese Asian actor in the role. The director himself actively sought out Sturgess and requested he audition.
Oh, didn't hear much about that. Care to elaborate?
I thought Iron Fist is a white dude?
broncobuster
Banned
On CW there's also Dr Light. In the films, they changed Mercy Graves to Japanese, but the less said there the better.
Sadly there's not many to pick from. Maybe they use Ryan Choi in films since Ray is Atom on TV? But in general Suicide Squad is surprisingly diverse. There's a Native American character, where another doesn't come to mind.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
As it stands we get relegated to set dressing and assistants. Tao Okamoto as Lex Luthor's secretary with 3 lines and barely any screen time before exiting the film completely. And now you get Benedict Wong as Strange's manservant. Which is a fucking shame because he had a pretty great role in the Martian. I can only hope he gets more to do than Mercy in BvS.
So yeah, you can still have Asians playing stereotypes just as long as they they aren't in major roles like the Ancient One.
So yeah, you can still have Asians playing stereotypes just as long as they they aren't in major roles like the Ancient One.
Right, Dr. Light, forgot about her. Hope she gets more to do in the future.
Wasn't Slipknot hispanic? But either way, yeah, I guess, native americans have a similar problem, that they mostly casted as native americans.
edit: Oh no, you're right, he is native.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Did hey even show Wong in the trailer?
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Nope, only asian extras. Gotta let you know dude is in an Asian setting by putting asians on the screen. But not too close to the screen or else people might think there are actual asian characters in the movie.
Hugo Strange is now Asian.
Let me correct you on a couple things.
1- Wong is a bigger and major role than Ancient One.
2- Ancient One is a fairly small role.
3- Have you seen the movie ? Did the movie portray Wong as a manservant ?
MHWilliams
Member
Berzerk is medieval European in inspiration, so no.
Konoha is clearly intended to be roughly Japanese. And there are other clans that look to be other nationalities. Kumogakure seems to be more Western in stylings.
From the trailers and set shots, Mordo and Strange are clearly going to be partners for much of the film. I'd expect Mordo's turn will come at the end of this film.
A characters of color has been turned into a white character. That's whitewashing. You can argue the merits of that and the rest of the casting surrounding it, but it is what it is.
Dr. Strange had a number of Asian undertones because Ditko seemingly made him an Asian character until Lee wrote a backstory a few issues later.
This is his first appearance, based largely on Ditko's original ideas for the character:
A compilation:
He originally had no backstory. Five issues later, Lee comes up with the "Stephen Strange is a American doctor who finds magic" backstory and Ditko adjusts his presentation of Strange to fit.
Asian Dr. Strange? Wong isn't much of an issue. Western Dr. Strange, you need to play up Wong as much more than a servant, hence the current incarnation as a physical protector and conscience for Strange.
Do you have an issues with Wong, his partner and proficient martial artist? Look, they're not getting away from stereotypical with Dr. Strange. It's not happening. Which means your contention is there should be no Asians in Dr. Strange?
Good point! Gotham's Hugo Strange is pretty cool so far. Fits perfectly despite me never even thinking that he could be asian.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
I stand corrected, but remain skeptical as he is nowhere to be seen in the trailer. Like I said, I can only hope he has more to do than what we're used to from Asian characters. I'm glad to hear he is a much bigger role than the brief description of the character implies. With so many comics and side stories and alternate universes it seems like almost every minor character could be a major character when glancing their wiki page and history so it's difficult to judge the importance of every character and whether or not that will come thru in movie adaptations. Case in point: Mercy Graves who, while isn't a huge character in the grand DC universe, was definitely more than what they made her to be in the movie.
Clearly, this fellow doesn't know the Hollywood hierarchy. It goes like this:
1. White Man
2. White Woman
3. Black Man
4. lol
5. lmao
6. lmfao
It's taken Marvel a dozen movies to finally have a black superhero who isn't a sidekick to some white guy, and it'll be a couple more movies before he gets a leading role. How many years you think it's going to take to get a major role for another minority? That hierarchy says quite a while yet. You're going to have to push really hard to get some more diversity in that lineup because Whitevengers isn't changing anytime soon. Nor is Hollywood.
1. White Man
2. White Woman
3. Black Man
4. lol
5. lmao
6. lmfao
It's taken Marvel a dozen movies to finally have a black superhero who isn't a sidekick to some white guy, and it'll be a couple more movies before he gets a leading role. How many years you think it's going to take to get a major role for another minority? That hierarchy says quite a while yet. You're going to have to push really hard to get some more diversity in that lineup because Whitevengers isn't changing anytime soon. Nor is Hollywood.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
Really? I don't think that's always true. Take Yakitate Japan
Normal characters:
American:
Kidd is drawn like that to distinctly show that hes based on brad pitt. Thats like the simon pegg character in high school of the dead.
deadscreensky
Member
The 1995 film of Ghost in the Shell didn't even take place in Japan. I don't think I've ever seen anybody complain about this. The Major was almost definitely supposed to look Western too (her body's features matches another very Western character), though I can at least understand people disagreeing on this.
I'm absolutely against whitewashing in general, but I'll say it again that I don't think a sci-fi movie about lost identity where the main character is an anonymous cyborg with a deliberately generic body and a blatantly fake (if Japanese) name is the place to worry about it that much. The Major isn't Japanese, she's not anything, that's the point. This is assuming the rest of the cast is more diverse, of course.
(Blond Batou being non-Japanese doesn't inherently worry me. I always assumed he was supposed to look Russian or German.)
Marvel's in a weird place, because so many of their Asian characters have such stereotypical backgrounds. I understand why they'd want to avoid that sort of cliche Orientalism in movies, but they should compensate in other areas and they really don't.
I'm absolutely against whitewashing in general, but I'll say it again that I don't think a sci-fi movie about lost identity where the main character is an anonymous cyborg with a deliberately generic body and a blatantly fake (if Japanese) name is the place to worry about it that much. The Major isn't Japanese, she's not anything, that's the point. This is assuming the rest of the cast is more diverse, of course.
(Blond Batou being non-Japanese doesn't inherently worry me. I always assumed he was supposed to look Russian or German.)
Marvel's in a weird place, because so many of their Asian characters have such stereotypical backgrounds. I understand why they'd want to avoid that sort of cliche Orientalism in movies, but they should compensate in other areas and they really don't.
UnemployedVillain
Member
It took place in a futuristic Japan that was a mix of modern day Japan and Hong Kong. It most certainly didn't take place in the west. Nor is there any indication that her name was "blatantly fake"
SuperStiltzkin
Member
Like I said before, in a world where technology allows us to evolve past racial identity, we're still all white. It doesn't matter what the themes of the films or manga were because those themes of transhumanism still work if you're Asian or black or hispanic or whatever. So why do we default to white?
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