kickboxers with wrestling and take down defense.
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Could UFC champion Ronda Rousey be competitive against male fighters?
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kickboxers with wrestling and take down defense.
Ronda can't beat any ufc fighter at her weight, and I wouldn't even put money on her lasting a round with Mighty Mouse. OTOH, she'd kick the ass of a regular shmoe. I don't know of Floyd qualifies as a regular shmoe. And though other boxers have gotten clowned in the past, it was never a man vs woman fight. Floyd isn't a big puncher by male standards, but he has 26 KOs. You can probably bet good money he'd drop Ronds like a sack of rocks. I don't know if she'd ever get her shot in before getting touched up and lumped up by the quickest hands in the business. A woman eating angry Floyd punches with small gloves? That's a tough ask for a woman. I'd favor the male mma fighter, but I don't know if Ronda has the chin to survive even a handful of knocks from Floyd. He's not just fast, he's accurate. He's planting all of them on her chin and temple. Is she shooting through that? I doubt it.
I would personally love to see a strictly grappling/jiu-jitsu match between Ronda and a man her weight. I think that would be interesting. Even then, I'd expect even a midget wrestler would be more than a handful for her on the ground. The strength difference can't be ignored. That's why I think Mighty Mouse would give her the business. People just see his size but forget he's a super athlete at his size and really strong to boot. Stronger than Ronda too is my guess. PEACE.
I would personally love to see a strictly grappling/jiu-jitsu match between Ronda and a man her weight. I think that would be interesting. Even then, I'd expect even a midget wrestler would be more than a handful for her on the ground. The strength difference can't be ignored. That's why I think Mighty Mouse would give her the business. People just see his size but forget he's a super athlete at his size and really strong to boot. Stronger than Ronda too is my guess. PEACE.
Depends on your definition of "doing well", I guess.
There are a bunch of average MMA fighters that basically live and die by their striking, and they've been training for much longer than Floyd would be in that scenario. So if he can become that after a crash course in takedown defense, etc., I'd consider that pretty successful.
Would be pointless, but just hypothetically speaking.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
They were all basically just thrown into PRIDE from k1 with very little training and did well. Crocop damn near killed Wandy who is a black belt in BJJ.
I'm assuming this is about the male vs female high level athletes angle.
Women are equally capable in terms of talent, hard work, and expertise. Ronda Rousey would completely wreck bare minimum 99.99% of the people on NeoGAF. I'm even plainly stating that Ronda would have an advantage against the best male boxer in the world under MMA rules unless he had Batman-level prep time. There is no gender bias at play here, or disrespect for women. I've trained alongside women in combat sports for a decade now and have met tons of badass women with skills and talents I respect far more than my own.
We're dealing with facts and empiricism here, though, not feelings. You feel respect and admiration for the women athletes of the world and their accomplishments, and those feelings translate into conclusions that don't accurately reflect reality. There is an enormous gulf between men and women in athletic potential, and that's just something you're going to have to come to terms with.
The Shogun
Banned
One of his craziest victories in terms of size was vs Kimo way back in the day. Royce was about 170lbs and defeated a man who was 235 lbs. About a 65 lb weight difference
With technique no one knew how to defend. It wasn't just him out skilling guys. Guys know how to defend that style now. It's not the same situation. PEACE.
You do realize that you quoted me when I said this:
I'm pretty sure in the many posts I've made in this thread, I've said other similar things. You're the only one who seems so sure about the outcome.
So why will Rousey lose? You say because she's a woman and it's a physical contest. Notice how you're not taking into consideration her skill and technique. But yet you're trying to discount the Baseball/Tennis comparison because they are different? You do realize that Boxing and MMA have different rules too don't you?
He's built a career on being difficult to punch. He's not Neo from the matrix able to dodge bullets.
Yeah because she's only been training for a few years in the thing that will help her most in the match (ground game/Judo).
Reflexes don't matter if you don't know what to do. You can have the fastest reactions in the world but if you react wrong you lose.
Rawr Its Ry
Member
lmao maybe cody mckenzie (but probably not)
as for the whole boxer vs mma thing:
Go watch Nishijima fights from Pride, they put him against other fighters who were gatekeeper status (minus Hunt) and he got fucking outclassed by them all.
Plus wouldnt Rousey just teep or leg kick the fuck outta him anytime he tried to move in?
as for the whole boxer vs mma thing:
Go watch Nishijima fights from Pride, they put him against other fighters who were gatekeeper status (minus Hunt) and he got fucking outclassed by them all.
Plus wouldnt Rousey just teep or leg kick the fuck outta him anytime he tried to move in?
Ol No Bones
Banned
Oh come on.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
Overeem was an MMA fighter for over a decade before he won the K-1 GP. He has a large number of submission wins, won the European ADCC trials and is one of only two fighters to submit BJJ black belt Vitor Belfort (the other being Jon Jones). Cro-Cop's sprawl in his prime was legendary and he hired Fabricio Werdum as his grappling coach. Rutten is a black belt in Judo and has a number of submission wins. Like many Brazilians, JDS first began training in jiu-jitsu before adding striking and beginning to compete in MMA.
hipbabboom
Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
Not s how to reconcile it but i totally would not enjoy watching a man pin down a woman and ground-n-pound her while i would be totally be able to be entertained to see either sex perform the same maneuver on an opponent of the same sex.
In a more equal word where domestic violence wasn't as big of an issue, i think my perspective would be different.
This probably makes me an unintentional sexist but i don't think i could enjoy watching such a thing.
In a more equal word where domestic violence wasn't as big of an issue, i think my perspective would be different.
This probably makes me an unintentional sexist but i don't think i could enjoy watching such a thing.
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
Probably not a top 10 guy but she would beat a few. Bet she'd beat the shit out of CM Punk and anyone on GAF.
Mister Wilhelm
Member
Again, this is ignorance about the power of BJJ and Judo when used against pure boxing. There is no reliable defense to it. You can throw some punches when they come in, but chances are slim you are going to get a knockout or stop the shot.
I'd like to know if anyone that thinks Floyd would win here has actually trained MMA before.
Honestly, it wouldn't even be a fight.
It's insanely difficult to convince people how effective grappling is against a striker with no ground game unless they've experienced first hand.
as much as i love pride that was pure "freak show" fights. and cro cop is so much bigger than wand
HolyBaikal
Banned
I do think that there's a gulf between most women athlete's abilities right now, and men athletes. But I don't think there's a gulf in potential.
But I suppose this gets into some very complicated discussions about the average woman and man, genetics, hormones, evolution, performance enhancing drugs, genetic engineering, and all sorts of things.
I do think that women have a lot of obstacles to overcome. But I don't think there's a gulf in potential. And I don't think we know the limits of potential for women or men, yet. Records will continue to be broken, but men have a head start.
For a different sport.. Ye Shiwen has swam faster than Ryan Lochte. Who is still one of the world's fastest swimmers. And I will say that I believe she has as much potential as a swimmer and the world's greatest male swimmers. She's young, and continuing to get better. And I'm looking forward to seeing her in the next Olympics. And how she has progressed. All male swimmers, have serious competition in women like Ye Shiwen. As do all male athletes from female athletes. Perhaps not Ye Shiwen, but the women who succeed and best her, could easily become the greatest swimmer in the world. Bar none. And regardless of gender or biological sex.
And, considering the discrimination against female athletes, and how they are treated by sports industries and society, how fast women are catch up to men's athleticism, is impressive. Since we don't yet know the potential or limits of men or women, I don't think that anyone is yet ready to speak on the potential for women, or men.
And I look forward to the day that your view of women's potential is once and for all, proven false. And women are proven to have the abilities of any man.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Yup. Floyd would get decimated in a MMA fight with Rousey.
I agree with Rogan on her fighting male UFC fighters though. She would do okay in the male weight class, but near top ten? Doubtful.
Those guys do have ground game though, it's just that they are more striking focused (although I'm not sure about Rutten). I actually think Overeem is pretty damn capable on the ground and clinch, many of his fights ended with submissions. Same with Bus Rutten, he has many submission victories (like 16 or something).
I've actually already said how I would see the fight going. Ronda would have to immediately take him down and keep him down to have any shot, but if she does she has a great shot, because she's obviously very technically proficient at grappling, etc. I just don't see how that's possible when she'd have to get in there without Floyd landing multiple punches AND while having a significant speed/quickness disadvantage.
The skill and technique only come into play if she can catch him. That's my entire argument and has been this whole thread. People are assuming she'll be able to get ahold of him, and I don't think that's something you can assume.
The physical difference between an elite male athlete and an elite female athlete is too much.
And punches are punches. It's one thing to be able to deal with a woman MMA fighter's striking, it's another to deal with the best striker on the planet's. The fact is that the bout starts standing up, in a striking sort of fight. They're not starting the fight in control like wrestlers.
Ronda Rousey is no Agent Smith, especially when she's fighting a man instead of a woman.
You're misunderstanding me again. You're making the argument that the fighter with superior technique in grappling would win a fight, no matter what. By that logic, any average joe with a decent amount of BJJ training (compared to Floyd's zero) would beat him in a street fight. It's a ridiculous notion.
Why are you assuming Floyd is going in there blind? He'd have access to the best training camp on the planet because he could pay them whatever they wanted. A lot of his physical gifts (including reflexes) would absolutely carry over, and he'd have thousands of reps over the course of months to learn appropriate technique.
Sure there's a reliable defense to it: being significantly faster than the person trying to get ahold of you. He doesn't have to knock her out as she's trying to grab him, he can just move away.
Flawed comparison. Man vs. man.
Vermillion
Banned
This is the type of shit people would put in their feminism papers and wonder why they failed.
The Shogun
Banned
Agree. She destroys Floyd in an MMA fight in less than a minute.
I think there's a few men in the UFC she could probably tap out that are at bottom end of the totem pole. Some of the guys they throw on random cards internationaly on the prelims but the top 20 at least at Bantamweight crush her, not necessarily because of skill but just sheer physical differences. There's some strong ass guys at that weight class.
professor_t
Member
I disagree with the bolded part entirely. Against someone who isn't well trained (which describes the majority of the male population), technique can go an extraordinarily long way. I think she would be able to submit most normal men in an MMA-style fight, including many who have a weight advantage.
Similarly, I think someone like Floyd Mayweather would absolutely annihilate a lot of men who have 30 to 40 pounds on him.
Agreed, plus I'm pretty sure he beat the Big Show once. That isn't an easy thing to do, there's not a lot of people out there who can say they beat up a giant.
Physically pound for pound women are not as strong as men. That's the unfortunate truth. I definitely agree that women are held back now, though, for various reasons. I think part of the reason women can't beat men right now is that the bar is set so low for them. Being the best woman in most sports is far easier than being the best man. Since they no longer have anyone to overcome, their drive to become better lessens. If they had to compete against men all of the time, I think their overall ability would be higher even if that meant they no longer stood out.
EDIT: And to add to this- the results may be that no woman will ever surpass a man at anything physical. However, I think we should wait and see.
I can see where you're coming from but I guess IMO it seems kinda dark that we enjoy watching men beat other men's asses. In my mind we disrespect women by banning them from participating against men. That's not to say that they SHOULD fight men- but they should always have the choice. And should they so make that choice, we should treat them as any other person in the ring. I don't think this has any relation to domestic violence as it's two trained athletes who agree to fight each other in a sanctioned match.
I think humans are pretty fucking limited in what they can do. Let's not cook up unrealistic ideals and proclaim selling anyone lower is somehow a disservice.
Typically outmoded records from times when the competition was smaller (including compared with women's competition today), training less sophisticated, and gear substantially inferior.
For instance, women's times in track are often competitive with men's times from a century ago... when the sport was in its early days of standardization, the tracks were cinder, and runners were wearing t-shirts, boasting leggings that practically amount to slightly shorter basketball shorts, and clomping about in shoes that would feel terribly heavy after trying a few laps in modern spikes.
This isn't a knock against women. It's just the obvious result of higher relative muscle density and a lack of boobs.
Wat
There was an instance a few years back where Ye Shiwen's final 50 of the 400m medley was ~.2 seconds faster than Lochte's final 50 of the correspondiong men's event, prompting some "OH WOW" from the media (including doping allegations and whatnot blah blah).
But Lochte's overall time for the event was an enormous 23 seconds faster; he simply had a vastly more frontloaded swim with a "slow" finish. It's even worth noting that Lochte was stomping on his opponents by the time he got to that part of the race, and may quite literally have not been putting his all into it.
hahhaha
StylesClash
Member
Did this topic really have to be made? it doesn't matter whether you think she can or not, it will never happen so why even get a discussion going? All it will result in is a lot of people getting banned.
That's the master plan, isn't it? Well played, OP.
That's the master plan, isn't it? Well played, OP.
She's still almost half a min behind the mens record holder. In swimming, that's not even close.
Code:
400 m individual medley 4:03.84 Michael Phelps
400 m individual medley 4:28.43 Ye ShiwenThe Shogun
Banned
All the comparison here to other sports doesn't work honestly.
Fighting is a lot different and you can't really compare the two. For instance you can take a 120 lb women and if she applies an arm bar or a kimora correctly to you, you're arm is fucked. Its not really a physical thing its technique.
BJJ was invented for the sole purpose of allowing a smaller man to defeat a larger one.
Fighting is a lot different and you can't really compare the two. For instance you can take a 120 lb women and if she applies an arm bar or a kimora correctly to you, you're arm is fucked. Its not really a physical thing its technique.
BJJ was invented for the sole purpose of allowing a smaller man to defeat a larger one.
johnny_park
Member
Nope.
Also take a bunch of guys who play pickup basketball and I bet they'd beat a women's college team.
Also take a bunch of guys who play pickup basketball and I bet they'd beat a women's college team.
Overly optimistic. Men are simply stronger than women. Bigger, stronger and faster. Olypmpics bear this out, as men hold records in all tests of strength and athleticism. Potential means nothing until it's attained. You may believe men and women have equal potential, but you're not gonnas find much of anything to support that argument. PEACE.
The main thing that's affecting your conclusions here is that you're looking at how fights play out with these guys in the cage. MMA is a sport and ruleset where, in 2015, any weaknesses in well-roundedness are immediately exposed, so it's something you have to train a complete game for in order to then impose your talents and strengths on your opponent. If you're missing any core attribute you're screwed, because everyone else at the top of the sport has a high level of proficiency in every category. If you want to be able to outstrike someone, for example, you first have to be able to prevent any of your opponents from taking you down and submitting or G&Ping you. If you have boxing talents, great, but you still have to be able to take a leg kick without crumpling and block a head kick and threaten a takedown and successfully defend against black belt level BJJ (easier said than fucking done) and everything else, and the more angles of attack you have at your disposal the better you can avoid telegraphing your intentions.
That the guys you list try to make most MMA fights a standing striking match does not mean that they don't all train wrestling and BJJ for hours every day.
Alistair Overeem has well over a decade of submission grappling experience and IIRC he swept an Abu Dhabi qualifier one year. He's a completely legit high level grappler.
Junior Dos Santos is a BJJ black belt with thousands of hours of mat time.
Bas Rutten was around in the absolute infancy of the sport and fought mostly under bizarre Pancrase rules, but quickly put a huge emphasis on grappling once he realized his weaknesses. Not sure of his formal BJJ belt level since he does a lot of no-gi, but he's black belt level and is also a Judo BB.
Mirko, again, much earlier in the history of the sport and as soon as he made the transition from K-1 to MMA he was on the mats 24/7 shoring up his weaknesses. In the mean time he was given special standing-only rules in Pride and a bunch of joke fights before he was more fully prepped to face well rounded opponents, and even then his grappling weakness was a huge bullseye that people like Nog and Fedor went after (successfully).
Manmademan
Member
Not an exaggeration at all. Female professional basketball players train against high school men's teams all the time, and lose quite a bit.
HolyBaikal
Banned
You're right, that wasn't a very good example.
Still, I think that the gap in women's and men's world records will continue to close. The seconds and milliseconds between men's and women's swimming records will continue to close over the years. Ye Shiwen is young, and will continue to improve and get better. And there will soon be successors who best her.
I'm very confident in that, and looking forward to the achievements of Ye Shiwen, and anyone who might best her. The difference in the men's and women's records will someday become far less than 20 seconds. And some day, less than 10 seconds. And someday, less than 5 seconds. And some day, less than that.
Makes sense
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Why can't people appreciate Rousey for what she is instead of trying to say what if this and what if that.
I think she would have plenty of competition from women if the division wasn't basically half cooked and trying to scrape together fighters.
I think she would have plenty of competition from women if the division wasn't basically half cooked and trying to scrape together fighters.
How? The power of sheer will? Something will have to change in the physical structure of women in order to propel them as fast as the men. There are limits to the human body. The reason the men exceed the women is because the male body is better built for athletics. You're dream is just as dream unless humans evolve so there's no difference between male and females muscles and bones. PEACE.
I think we're arguing in circles and shitting up the thread so I'll just say my last remarks. There's probably some miscommunication between us. I don't know for sure she'd win. I just want it to be acknowledged that she would dominate him on the ground and that it should be her gameplan to play to her strengths. If she gets punched, of course she's going down. Her winning is highly dependent on her taking him down. You make it seem that there's close to zero percent chance of that happening while I think it's at least around 50% chance.
I'm all for female equality in this world but I watched the number 1 women's college basketball team the other day and couldn't figure out why they were so unbelievably bad. Granted I don't think men's college teams are that good either but women's teams are BAD.
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