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[Pikma]

Not gonna wait to get a New 3DS? Customizable face plates and Xenoblade on the go Pikma!

Hahaha you understimate me, dear Horizon, of course I'm getting a New 3DS for Xenoblade and MH4 (not sure if regular or XL though, maybe both ) but I want to be able to play the super bash sisters tourney on an XL, 80 hours of SFIV back on launch tell me that the OG just isn't comfortable for input-intense games

 

[woodland]

I'm honestly not convinced that making tutorials for combos that make them easy and intuitive for new players without putting in quite a bit of effort is a managable thing, since combos rely so much on a level of dexterity and quick reflexes that just don't come naturally to most people. Even if you know exactly which buttons to push, pushing them all in the right order in the very short time frame you're given can't really be done without a bunch of practice for most people

So what are we trying to do here? We want people that don't put in time to learn or even get decent muscle memory to be able to beat players that put the time in the learn both those things and practice?

Right.

The difference is people shouldn't be expecting these techniques in any other smash. The game wasn't build around these techniques, that's why Sakurai won't put them back. It's not like melee is "depeer" it was just a funny glitch that people took advantage of it.

The first question when the demo came out was: "Wavedashing? PLEASE L-CANCELING"

Like JoeInky said, L-Cancelling wasn't a glitch. Also, glitches aren't necessarily bad for games. Glitches made Halo 1 & 2 more competitive, added a huge skill gap to Gears 1, and have gone from being unintended mechanics in Dota 1 to intended and even very vital parts of the game in Dota 1 & 2, which is the second biggest competitive game in the world right now. Having bias against glitches because they're unintended is silly.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I honestly feel like you don't need any "techniques" in this game outside of spacing and knowing priorities/hitboxes.

Even stuff as basic as that takes time and practice to get down to a reasonable level though. Especially since a lot of hitboxes aren't obvious if you don't spend a lot of time in training mode, since the action is pretty fast in actual match

 

[theprodigy]

.....that's something every competitive game has to deal with

MOBAs and FPS games of course get around this by being team based, so you can just blame someone else, but in a 1v1 game you can't really avoid this happening no matter what

 

[Crayolan]

So I'm watching some jigglypuff play on stream, and I noticed Sing is seriously buffed. It has much bigger range and keeps the opponent asleep long enough to fully charge a smash attack. The downside is the sing animation lasts much longer, so foes with chargeable projectiles can really capitalize off that.

 

[Gurrry]

thinking about buying a grip for my 3dsXL for this game

anyone have experiences with them? does it make the 3ds feel more like a controller?

 

[Aaronrules380]

So what are we trying to do here? We want people that don't put in time to learn or even get decent muscle memory to be able to beat players that put the time in the learn both those things and practice?

Right.

I'm not saying this is a good practice. I'm saying most people don't enjoy that. Whether that's good or not is irrelevant. The fact is games are for most people a way of escaping real life, and part of that escapism is being able to feel like you aren't a loser and to be successful at things. Most people want instant gratification in games. They want to be able to win. They might want a challenge, but they want one that seems realistic and doesn't demand too much of their time or energy. That's simply reality, whether you like it or not

 

[Wynnebeck]

Even stuff as basic as that takes time and practice to get down to a reasonable level though. Especially since a lot of hitboxes aren't obvious if you don't spend a lot of time in training mode, since the action is pretty fast in actual match

Obviously, but that is more general fighting game knowledge (which I don't feel Smash falls under but I digress) than Smash Bros. specific information. Stuff specific to Smash like SHFFLing, L-Cancelling, Wavedashing, etc. are in my opinion not generally needed to be good, but makes things easier for those versed in it.

 

[Stylo]

So what are we trying to do here? We want people that don't put in time to learn or even get decent muscle memory to be able to beat players that put the time in the learn both those things and practice?

Right.

Exactly. What we have here are people who don't want to put in the time to get good and expect do well.

The difference is people shouldn't be expecting these techniques in any other smash. The game wasn't build around these techniques, that's why Sakurai won't put them back. It's not like melee is "depeer" it was just a funny glitch that people took advantage of it.

The first question when the demo came out was: "Wavedashing? PLEASE L-CANCELING"

Sorry bro, L-Cancelling was definitely not a glitch.

 

[Crocodile]

L-Cancelling isn't a glitch.

It was a feature in 64, a feature in Melee and then completely removed without re-adding anything to compensate, much like a lot of the aspects that made 64 and Melee interesting but were removed in Brawl.

I'm pretty sure they were talking about wavedashing (though they could have worded themselves better).

L-canceling was just a pointless dexterity tax since there was pretty much no reason not to ever do it. Auto-canceling is a fine replacement even if you could argue they could be more generous with it for certain moves or what not.

 

[KLatin Scelus]

So I'm watching some jigglypuff play on stream, and I noticed Sing is seriously buffed. It has much bigger range and keeps the opponent asleep long enough to fully charge a smash attack. The downside is the sing animation lasts much longer, so foes with chargeable projectiles can really capitalize off that.

That's sounds great! Gives that move a purpose now.

 

[mStudios]

Exactly. What we have here are people who don't want to put in the time to get good and expect do well.



Sorry bro, L-Cancelling was definitely not a glitch.

Wavedashing bro. My apologies for not wording it right.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

The difference is people shouldn't be expecting these techniques in any other smash. The game wasn't build around these techniques, that's why Sakurai won't put them back. It's not like melee is "depeer" it was just a funny glitch that people took advantage of it.

The first question when the demo came out was: "Wavedashing? PLEASE L-CANCELING"

By your logic combos would never have been a thing in Street Fighter after SF2.

Doesn't matter what is or isn't intended at some point, developers can see the value in such accidents after the fact just like anyone else, and by the same token they can get rid of something they deliberately implemented after realizing it was stupid, like tripping.

 

[Aaronrules380]

.....that's something every competitive game has to deal with

MOBAs and FPS games of course get around this by being team based, so you can just blame someone else, but in a 1v1 game you can't really avoid this happening no matter what

I disagree, because the problem is largely that doing decently requires someone to learn a skill that isn't intuitive to them. I can play something like Mario Kart and grasp the fundemental mechanics right away, even if other people can utilize them way better than I can. Fighting games tend to be harder to get into because the fundemental core mechanics aren't as intuitive to people. People are only going to bother learning a game if they like their first impression of it. And yeah, in a strictly 1v1 competitive setting there will always be elements of this, but they can be lessened or increased depending on how the game's structured. That's why I can understand Sakurai's desire to cater to masses who want a game they can hop into quickly and do reasonably well in, especially since this is ultimately how he gets his paycheck.

 

[Item Box]

Is there an easier way of doing tilts? After playing the demo with a couple of friends, I was pretty much the only person who couldn't pull them off consistently

 

[random25]

Is there some sort of a "grip" for the Circle Pad? Sometimes my control slips when things get chaotic lol.

Is there an easier way of doing tilts? After playing the demo with a couple of friends, I was pretty much the only person who couldn't pull them off consistently

Try not to slide the circle pad to far to the edge, just give it a slight bump.

Another way is to shuffle it with another move. E.g. continue to hold the side after a dash then press A to to a forward tilt.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Is there some sort of a "grip" for the Circle Pad? Sometimes my control slips when things get chaotic lol.

Boss doggie says super glue works great

 

[-Horizon-]

Hahaha you understimate me, dear Horizon, of course I'm getting a New 3DS for Xenoblade and MH4 (not sure if regular or XL though, maybe both ) but I want to be able to play the super bash sisters tourney on an XL, 80 hours of SFIV back on launch tell me that the OG just isn't comfortable for input-intense games

My only experience with the OG one was in a Best Buy demo unit when it first came out and yeah, that thing was small. At the same time, the XL is way too big for me to comfortably carry around when I'm out and about right now. /conflicted

 

[theprodigy]

I disagree, because the problem is largely that doing decently requires someone to learn a skill that isn't intuitive to them. I can play something like Mario Kart and grasp the fundemental mechanics right away, even if other people can utilize them way better than I can. Fighting games tend to be harder to get into because the fundemental core mechanics aren't as intuitive to people. People are only going to bother learning a game if they like their first impression of it. And yeah, in a strictly 1v1 competitive setting there will always be elements of this, but they can be lessened or increased depending on how the game's structured. That's why I can understand Sakurai's desire to cater to masses who want a game they can hop into quickly and do reasonably well in, especially since this is ultimately how he gets his paycheck.

like what, how to string hits together?

and Mario Kart has items on by default, play with items in Smash and it's just fine there too

edit: besides, if "the masses" play LoL, Dota, and CoD that much, clearly it's not about getting instant gratification in the form of winning

 

[mStudios]

By your logic combos would never have been a thing in Street Fighter after SF2.

Doesn't matter what is or isn't intended at some point, developers can see the value in such accidents after the fact just like anyone else, and by the same token they can get rid of something they deliberately implemented after realizing it was stupid, like tripping.

Again, if it wasn't intended, the game wasn't build around it. Whether or not people thought it was a nice feature it's irrelevant, because in the developers mind, it wasn't a real feature. Melee was never build with a competitive mind. Whatever the developer think it's garbage, they remove it. Including tripping or anyother features.

Edit: Delete a phrase because of misreading.

 

[JediLink]

I've experienced fighting games where I've gone online pretty close to launch and still gotten destroyed in every fight I played. It's not just a matter of pros beating you. It's a matter of a few core mechanics (like comboing) that aren't easy to learn and that new players really can't find ways to combat. It only takes a handful of major losses for a new player to get frustrated and stop playing a game, and high and medium level players will be playing more online matches than low level players, which means they'll be significantly easier to find.

The problem is that it isn't just pro players and casuals. The skill structure is more like a pyramid, where most people really aren't that good, but there are still plenty of mid level players aware of some of the higher level techniques even if they don't have the interest or skill to compete with a pro. Honestly, it isn't the super high level techniques that are putting off casuals, it's the mid level stuff that is fundamental to high level play, but absent at low level play, the stuff that takes a while to learn, but that isn't super inaccessible either.

I'm not saying this is a good practice. I'm saying most people don't enjoy that. Whether that's good or not is irrelevant. The fact is games are for most people a way of escaping real life, and part of that escapism is being able to feel like you aren't a loser and to be successful at things. Most people want instant gratification in games. They want to be able to win. They might want a challenge, but they want one that seems realistic and doesn't demand too much of their time or energy. That's simply reality, whether you like it or not

 

[woodland]

I'm not saying this is a good practice. I'm saying most people don't enjoy that. Whether that's good or not is irrelevant. The fact is games are for most people a way of escaping real life, and part of that escapism is being able to feel like you aren't a loser and to be successful at things. Most people want instant gratification in games. They want to be able to win. They might want a challenge, but they want one that seems realistic and doesn't demand too much of their time or energy. That's simply reality, whether you like it or not

Is it? League and Dota are the two most popular video games now and have a MASSIVE following. Ignoring the mobile crowd since Smash isn't mobile, both of those games are incredibly far from instant gratification. You have shit teammates, shitty personalities, hours of grinding (Lvl 30 in LoL for ranked and 13 or x hours in Dota for the same) to be shit at the game, let alone be good at it. The games themselves take forever. 20 minutes being the general minimum in League while games commonly go to an hour. You are probably right. There is a massive community that wants instant gratification. But Smash isn't going to get that massive audience by dumbing itself down more than it already has. That's a fact. Especially this iteration where it's already limited by the Wii U and moreso in the future with switches to mobile.

Aside, every game I've mentioned with the exception of Gears is as famous or moreso than Smash. Clearly they're doing something right and it isn't dumbing it down as much as we presently are.

One last thing - the core mechanics of a fighting game is hit people as much as you can, especially while they're unable to do something. If that's not intuitive, I don't think it can get any easier than that.

 

[random25]

Boss doggie says super glue works great

Putting a glue on the actual pad? What I mean is a less slippy circle pad rubber because after long use it just feels smooth and slippy, just like what happened to my OG 3DS after playing tons of SF4.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Was the 3 Days gif posted yet? I really hope that, even though it ain't Smash, either the third day or final day is Majora's Mask's countdown message.

 

[Aaronrules380]

like what, how to string hits together?

and Mario Kart has items on by default, play with items in Smash and it's just fine there too

To an extent, but not every low level player likes items either. Plenty of people don't want the chaos of items or free for alls, but also don't want to get wrecked immediately because they chose to forego them. The situation is complicated because the lower level players of smash aren't a homogenous group in the first place. And yeah, stringing together hits is an easy to understand concept, but requires a lot of experimentation and practice to actually pull off for new players, especially since even if you know the right combo you still have to be able to learn the proper spacing and timing, and have the reflexes and focus to pull them off properly. It's pretty easy for an inexperienced player to enter a combo in wrong because they're rushing to meet the small time limit that's available and accidentally pressing a button too many times. Most people aren't going to be picking up the game and immediately be able to string together a bunch of different attacks.

 

[PreyingShark]

like what, how to string hits together?

and Mario Kart has items on by default, play with items in Smash and it's just fine there too

Most people are complete trash at Mario Kart though.

Then again, I think that shows that millions of people are willing to play a game they are complete trash at as long as they are having fun. I think that applies to Smash, too.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Is it? League and Dota are the two most popular video games now and have a MASSIVE following. Ignoring the mobile crowd since Smash isn't mobile, both of those games are incredibly far from instant gratification. You have shit teammates, shitty personalities, hours of grinding (Lvl 30 in LoL for ranked and 13 or x hours in Dota for the same) to be shit at the game, let alone be good at it. The games themselves take forever. 20 minutes being the general minimum in League while games commonly go to an hour. You are probably right. There is a massive community that wants instant gratification. But Smash isn't going to get that massive audience by dumbing itself down more than it already has. That's a fact. Especially this iteration where it's already limited by the Wii U and moreso in the future with switches to mobile.

Aside, every game I've mentioned with the exception of Gears is as famous or moreso than Smash. Clearly they're doing something right and it isn't dumbing it down as much as we presently are.

One last thing - the core mechanics of a fighting game is hit people as much as you can, especially while they're unable to do something. If that's not intuitive, I don't think it can get any easier than that.

League and Dota are also team based games though. It makes it so you can win without being good because you're teammates picked up the slack, and its easier in that setting to learn from a more experienced friend

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Putting a glue on the actual pad? What I mean is a less slippy circle pad rubber because after long use it just feels smooth and slippy, just like what happened to my OG 3DS after playing tons of SF4.

I dont know lol.. I was just messing around cause boss doggy is always saying he put super glue when the control pad slips off. I honestly dont know about any grips. Hopefully I wont need any

 

[theprodigy]

Most people are complete trash at every game though.

Then again, I think that shows that millions of people are willing to play a game they are complete trash at as long as they are having fun. I think that applies to Smash, too.

FTFY

besides the player base dying off as time passes has very little do with the number of players getting beatdowns online and everything to do with the natural decline of the online playerbase as people move on to other games + developer support (or exceptionally shitty online can kill it immediately ala Brawl)

 

[Holy Order Sol]

You can add training wheels until you're mounted on caterpillar tracks, there's no helping people who have no interest in learning a game.

Again, if it wasn't intended, the game wasn't build around it. Whether or not people thought it was a nice feature it's irrelevant, because in the developers mind, it wasn't a real feature. Melee was never build with a competitive mind. Whatever the developer think it's garbage, they remove it. Including tripping or anyother features.

My point was that it's always possible for a developer to embrace something they didn't plan for, like they did with combos in the SF series, and make it into a feature for the following installments. So it doesn't necessarily follow from the fact that something wasn't intended, that we shouldn't expect it to return. Because it has actually happened before.

 

[Greenzxy]

The hitstun feels like an increase from Brawl, but it's still highly ineffective with how short it is overall, and how fast you can act out of it. I'm not even going to try to pretend that I don't hate it. I hate it.

Really? Cause I'm looking at Clash Tournament, even basic stuff like Fox U-tilt lat low percent doesn't always reliably combo into. It acts really similar to Brawl's.

 

[OmegaSmash]

As long as Smash continues to be the only good game of it's type, tournament goers will always hope for it to appeal to them in some way.

My point was that it's always possible for a developer to embrace something they didn't plan for, like they did with combos in the SF series, and make it into a feature for the following installments. So it doesn't necessarily follow from the fact that something wasn't intended, that we shouldn't expect it to return. Because it has actually happened before.

Wasn't rocket jumping also an unintentional thing when it was discovered?

 

[random25]

I dont know lol.. I was just messing around cause boss doggy is always saying he put super glue when the control pad slips off. I honestly dont know about any grips. Hopefully I wont need any

Maybe I'll just do this as an alternative.

 

[Aaronrules380]

FTFY

besides the player base dying off as time passes has very little do with the number of players getting beatdowns online and everything to do with the natural decline of the online playerbase+developer support

The problem is that people don't have fun if they're curbstomped. It isn't just that people are losing, it's that they're losing badly, and often times aren't really sure why. It's one thing to lose in an FPS where you did poorly but you still got a few kills in and felt like you got something accomplished, and another to be 2 or three stocked constantly in a game like Smash

 

[Stylo]

We should not be excusing shitty attitudes. Any reasonable person understands that they will probably lose against someone better than them at any game and should try to have fun regardless. I think the extent of these "beat downs" are exaggerated.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Sakurai can eliminate the competitive element of his games, but he can't do it w/o being criticized. Why shouldn't people be bothered when Sakurai attempts to dumb down his games and make them less fun for those people?

 

[BY2K]

Btw that quarter-pounder bettet have cheese.

And bacon.

 

[Aaronrules380]

We should not be excusing shitty attitudes. Any reasonable person understands that they will probably lose against someone better than them at any game and should try to have fun regardless. I think the extent of these "beat downs" are exaggerated.

That's nice, but people in general are not rational creatures. And if you're in Sakurai's position, it makes more sense to appeal to the masses than to a much smaller section of people who want the game to be super competitive. There are people in the middle, but most of them won't care much either way.

 

[OmegaSmash]

Sakurai can eliminate the competitive element of his games, but he can't do it w/o being criticized. Why shouldn't people be bothered when Sakurai attempts to dumb down his games and make them less fun for those people?

Because Smash is a party game that's not supposed to be taken seriously.

Spoiler

/s just to be sure.

 

[Dimmle]

Hoo boy, this thread really took a nosedive.

On a positive note, I played a bit of Smash 64 to unwind today and noticed Ness's funky run cycle. It's real good.

 

[theprodigy]

Maybe I'll just do this as an alternative.

does it come with a receding hairline?

The problem is that people don't have fun if they're curbstomped. It isn't just that people are losing, it's that they're losing badly, and often times aren't really sure why. It's one thing to lose in an FPS where you did poorly but you still got a few kills in and felt like you got something accomplished, and another to be 2 or three stocked constantly in a game like Smash

I'll say it again, this supposed "problem", at best, contributes minimally to decreasing the online playerbase, and the majority of the people will move on to the next big thing regardless.

also, this whole talk about appealing to the "masses" is hilarious considering their current position

 

[tonyh24613]

One 7.0 run using Zelda, got 7 new custom moves, 4 of them are her neutral B2.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Sakurai can eliminate the competitive element of his games, but he can't do it w/o being criticized. Why shouldn't people be bothered when Sakurai attempts to dumb down his games and make them less fun for those people?

I'm not saying they shouldn't be bothered or upset. They have every right to be. But calling Sakurai a moron or insane or anything of that nature (which happens a lot) because he made a decision to appeal to a different crowd is uncalled for. It sucks to be left behind, but Sakurai also has a right to determine who he wants his game to appeal to.

 

[Golnei]

One 7.0 run using Zelda, got 7 new custom moves, 4 of them are her neutral B2.

The next ineffectual change.org petition had better be for a custom move shop.

 

[Aaronrules380]

does it come with a receding hairline?



I'll say it again, this supposed "problem", at best, contributes minimally to decreasing the online playerbase, and the majority of the people will move on to the next big thing regardless.

also, this whole talk about appealing to the "masses" is hilarious considering their current position

I'm not saying it will destroy the online community. I'm saying the online community will be dominated by one group of people and not be inclusive, which discourages other groups to keep buying the series and makes the game more niche. NIche games can still have active online communities

 

[Timeaisis]

Hoo boy, this thread really took a nosedive.

On a positive note, I played a bit of Smash 64 to unwind today and noticed Ness's funky run cycle. It's real good.

Yeah, looks like it's that time of the week again.

 

[Stylo]

That's nice, but people in general are not rational creatures. And if you're in Sakurai's position, it makes more sense to appeal to the masses than to a much smaller section of people who want the game to be super competitive. There are people in the middle, but most of them won't care much either way.

I don't think the masses are having as much trouble as your making it out to be. I've been to countless tournaments, conventions, parties, clubs, etc filled with players who play at a casual level, and they've always had a blast. There's always that one guy in every group that destroys the rest, but that doesn't stop people from having fun. Hell, I've seen people make it a mission to beat that "one guy" while waiting in rotation and have lots of fun in the process.

 

[Pikma]

My only experience with the OG one was in a Best Buy demo unit when it first came out and yeah, that thing was small. At the same time, the XL is way too big for me to comfortably carry around when I'm out and about right now. /conflicted

Have you ever tried a 2DS? I found it to be the most comfortable of all three models, too bad it doesn't have 3D, and the screens are so small too.

But well, I guess I'll send my XL to Nintendo for repair then sell it once it returns. I'm gonna miss it ;_; hopefully the Smash XL (if I find it, of course) can fill it's place in my heart

 

[random25]

does it come with a receding hairline?

*Checks my hairline*

It still is safe. And I'm 1 year older than LeBron

 

[MrSaturn99]

Hoo boy, this thread really took a nosedive.

On a positive note, I played a bit of Smash 64 to unwind today and noticed Ness's funky run cycle. It's real good.

yeah I should've expected the D1 Facebook thing to eventually turn into another competitive debate lmao.

Did you see the PK Thunder wallbounce? :O