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Super Smash Bros. for 3DS |OT2| Nintendo All-Stars Battle Quarter Pounder

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J@hranimo said:
My god his wings.
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I don't think that's a bad size for them, actually. It's just a shame that it'd be difficult to animate them folding up in his grounded animations without adding heaps of new bones.
 
I don't think we'll see any purposeful balance changes outside of glitch fixes and such. Even GameFreak, who is way more competitive-friendly, said they wouldn't do any balance patches for XY.

PK Gaming said:
Jeez what a pain

That's what happens when you directly port over a character

I hope it gets patched, but knowing my luck...
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Directly port? Isn't Wario actually changed up quite a bit, like his animations are completely different now...he doesn't have the weird frame delay. So I doubt "directly porting" him had anything to do with it.
 
Honestly, after thinking about it, I kind of feel like inescapable combos are actually a huge part of why fighting games are so niche, and I feel like Melee might have been much less popular if they had been given the same emphasis as other fighting games give them. I think in general Melee's popularity would have been less if a lot of the competitive stuff had been more accessible (as in, pointed out by the game more, rather than easier to perform) as weird as it sounds, because I feel like most players (or at least very few that I ever played) didn't really even think about stuff like combos much. Combos can be fun if you can pull them off, and fun to watch, but they're incredibly intimidating to newcomers who won't really have any idea how to deal with them. That's why I can understand where Sakurai is coming from, because it's much harder to isolate the communities nowadays than it was in melee.

I think that a lot of people don't understand that while casuals might not care about depth, Few people enjoy gets curbstomped the moment they go online. And while ranking systems can fix this to an extent, the most important period is going to be near a game's release when people are trying online for the first time and that's a period where rankings haven't had as big an impact yet. If someone does 3 or 4 matches online and gets curbstomped each time, they're likely to just quit. And this in turn leads to less lower skill leveled players online, which in turn means more people experience the same thing, which leads to the cycle repeating itself. It's not even about low level players thinking they should be able to win against people who've played a lot more, it's more that it's not fun to get into a match and be unable to do anything at all.

And before people talk about just playing with friends, I think these issues with combo systems still apply in those situations, since a lot of people get into the game by playing multiplayer first without owning it. And when it's easy for someone who's had the game to know about and practice combos and other more advanced techniques, it could easily lead to a similar situation, albiet less extreme

So yeah, that's why I get where Sakurai is coming from, because I do think a lot of people get intimated by super high skill ceilings and systems that give massive rewards to people who've had much more time to practice, especially in cases like Smash where many will experience it with someone else before buying their own copy. I'm not saying these attitudes are right, or good, or anything like that. Just that they're very real and I get why Sakurai might want to limit stuff like that at the detriment of the competitive community. Most people simply don't want to spend hours on a game to be able to compete, they want to be able to pick it up and do decently well from the get go because it's more fun to do well, and most don't have the time or desire
 
Watch Da Birdie said:
I don't think we'll see any purposeful balance changes outside of glitch fixes and such. Even GameFreak, who is way more competitive-friendly, said they wouldn't do any balance patches for XY.
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That's largely different, as Pokemon gets rebalanced every year or so anyways due to the release of new versions. Releasing a balance patch in between these games would be pointless. Smash, however, only gets a release about once every 7 years. It'd benefit from balance patches.
 
I bet that Ridley model might work well on its own, but I wonder how well it will work fitting on certain stages, being grabbed, using items, etc.

Also...

ssbb___ridley_psa_wip_8_by_bagansmashbros-d7zut3x.png


SWITCH THE EYES! Jesus Christ.
 
Crocodile said:
How in the world is it not? Even correcting previous design decisions is still a nod to the competitive community. Do you explicitly want new mechanics? Well that can be dangerous and lead to mechanic/complexity creep (which is a real issue for almost any game) but even then you've got stuff like the new ledge mechanics which they said on stream (see the E3 Treehouse streams) were made with the competitive community in mind. For Glory and the Omega stages were obviously done with the competitive community in mind even if you can argue they didn't go far enough since they didn't include platform versions or listened too much to the Japanese/online side with preference given to Final Destination.

As for the last suggestion, turbo modes are a great way to segment the competitive community because I'm 100% there would be those who prefer the "slower" option. It's one of those ideas that seems like it would be allowing for more options but it would end up just being decisive and problematic.
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Exactly, Sakurai listens to the competitive community and keeps them in mind during development. Just mostly the Japanese crowd not so much the western community. And that's fine.
 
I don't wanna be around when Ridley gets into Project M, because I know that's gonna result in the biggest official Smash vs. Project M war ever seen by humankind.
 
Aaronrules380 said:
Honestly, after thinking about it, I kind of feel like inescapable combos are actually a huge part of why fighting games are so niche, and I feel like Melee might have been much less popular if they had been given the same emphasis as other fighting games give them. I think in general Melee's popularity would have been less if a lot of the competitive stuff had been more accessible (as in, pointed out by the game more, rather than easier to perform) as weird as it sounds, because I feel like most players (or at least very few that I ever played) didn't really even think about stuff like combos much. Combos can be fun if you can pull them off, and fun to watch, but they're incredibly intimidating to newcomers who won't really have any idea how to deal with them. That's why I can understand where Sakurai is coming from, because it's much harder to isolate the communities nowadays than it was in melee.

I think that a lot of people don't understand that while casuals might not care about depth, Few people enjoy gets curbstomped the moment they go online. And while ranking systems can fix this to an extent, the most important period is going to be near a game's release when people are trying online for the first time and that's a period where rankings haven't had as big an impact yet. If someone does 3 or 4 matches online and gets curbstomped each time, they're likely to just quit. And this in turn leads to less lower skill leveled players online, which in turn means more people experience the same thing, which leads to the cycle repeating itself. It's not even about low level players thinking they should be able to win against people who've played a lot more, it's more that it's not fun to get into a match and be unable to do anything at all.

And before people talk about just playing with friends, I think these issues with combo systems still apply in those situations, since a lot of people get into the game by playing multiplayer first without owning it. And when it's easy for someone who's had the game to know about and practice combos and other more advanced techniques, it could easily lead to a similar situation, albiet less extreme

So yeah, that's why I get where Sakurai is coming from, because I do think a lot of people get intimated by super high skill ceilings and systems that give massive rewards to people who've had much more time to practice, especially in cases like Smash where many will experience it with someone else before buying their own copy. I'm not saying these attitudes are right, or good, or anything like that. Just that they're very real and I get why Sakurai might want to limit stuff like that at the detriment of the competitive community. Most people simply don't want to spend hours on a game to be able to compete, they want to be able to pick it up and do decently well from the get go because it's more fun to do well, and most don't have the time or desire
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I played the first SF4 online, got stomped each match I played online (around 20), and quit. Never again.

But again, I'm was just a casual SF4 player.
 
So, Smash 4 only has brawl combos? That's a bummer.
Does this game even have increased hitstun? I know the trajectory is different, but I'm looking at videos and it looks like Brawl hitstun.
 
Aaronrules380 said:
Honestly, after thinking about it, I kind of feel like inescapable combos are actually a huge part of why fighting games are so niche
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I also don't feel they should cater necessarily to "casuals" either. Most people are fine with just mashing buttons with their cool Nintendo All-Star cast. Give depth to those who want it. I do think there has to be a balance though, can't isolate them completely, but I also think if there were like a Marvel vs Capcom 3 but with a Nintendo cast people would still enjoy it.
Keep For Fun/For Glory modes and expand them in future titles (make For Glory include Battlefield variations, For Fun have more customizable options...maybe even a few modes like "Bob-ombs only" "Pokeballs only" etc.)

Sometimes optimized combos/setups/Advanced Techniques are just a coincidence of the game's engine too. I think as fighting games in general evolve to be more "newbie" friendly they could include hubs to have the community basically be able to make their own tutorial videos/combo videos for new stuff in-game and share them instead of having to search through forums online to learn how to do x technique/combo.
 
Aaronrules380 said:
I think that a lot of people don't understand that while casuals might not care about depth, Few people enjoy gets curbstomped the moment they go online. And while ranking systems can fix this to an extent, the most important period is going to be near a game's release when people are trying online for the first time and that's a period where rankings haven't had as big an impact yet. If someone does 3 or 4 matches online and gets curbstomped each time, they're likely to just quit. And this in turn leads to less lower skill leveled players online, which in turn means more people experience the same thing, which leads to the cycle repeating itself. It's not even about low level players thinking they should be able to win against people who've played a lot more, it's more that it's not fun to get into a match and be unable to do anything at all.
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I don't get this argument. You can't stop better players from beating worse players. This isn't Mario Party, even in Brawl a serious player can curbstomp someone who has no idea what they're doing. And besides, if what you're really worried about is the earliest period of the game's life, that's when it'll be the most flooded with newbies and you're less likely than ever to run into someone with mastery over the game's controls.

Lowering the skill ceiling to make sure casuals never see how high the skill ceiling can get when they're unlikely to ever see it anyway is pointless.
 
KLatin Scelus said:
And he's only 10% done? This is amazing!
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Don't forget they're building on a moveset which was the product of 15 people's contributions. Granted, the previous Ridleys looked incredibly off, but this version is nowhere near a solo project.

ssbb___past__present_and_future_by_bagansmashbros-d80e68m.png


It's so heartwarming to see how far he's come.
 
So...you guys think we'll have a nice Oct. 3rd Patch fixing some of the glitches in preparation for the worldwide release?

Is there a log of all the patches so far? I just know Peach Ban-Glitch was fixed.
 
Greenzxy said:
So, Smash 4 only has brawl combos? That's a bummer.
Does this game even have increased hitstun? I know the trajectory is different, but I'm looking at videos and it looks like Brawl hitstun.
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The hitstun feels like an increase from Brawl, but it's still highly ineffective with how short it is overall, and how fast you can act out of it. I'm not even going to try to pretend that I don't hate it. I hate it.
 
mStudios said:
I played the first SF4 online, got stomped each match I played online (around 20), and quit. Never again.

But again, I'm was just a casual SF4 player.
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I had a similar experience with the 3ds street fighter game. I honestly think Melee is a bad counterpoint because the competitive aspects of melee were often very hidden and not taught by the game, so very few people were ever really aware of them. People as a rule are only going to strive hard to improve at something if they enjoy it, or feel some greater need to be good at it. And since the latter will never apply to a video game, it means that a game where most people can't enjoy it from the very beginning is going to turn most people off.

One could argue that they could do similar things for Smash 4, but I think it's honestly a different era. The internet and online play make a lot of these things more visible even if the game tries to hide them. And online play tends to be dominated by the people who learn these things because they win more often, they'll play more matches at a time, and because the other people will start to drop out as they lose a bunch to those players, leading to a cycle that culls away casuals from the online environment. I guess you could argue for fun fixes this, but it still has a lot of limitations like not allowing one on one or stock battles that a lot of casuals still want to experience.
 
Golnei said:
Don't forget they're building on a moveset which was the product of 15 people's contributions. Granted, the previous Ridleys looked incredibly off, but this version is nowhere near a solo project.

ssbb___past__present_and_future_by_bagansmashbros-d80e68m.png


It's so heartwarming to see how far he's come.
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It seems his moveset in general is also based of off his appearance in 'Super Smash Bros. Crusade'.

Yes, this will definitely hold me over for a while.
 
Aaronrules380 said:
I think that a lot of people don't understand that while casuals might not care about depth, Few people enjoy gets curbstomped the moment they go online. And while ranking systems can fix this to an extent, the most important period is going to be near a game's release when people are trying online for the first time and that's a period where rankings haven't had as big an impact yet. If someone does 3 or 4 matches online and gets curbstomped each time, they're likely to just quit. And this in turn leads to less lower skill leveled players online, which in turn means more people experience the same thing, which leads to the cycle repeating itself. It's not even about low level players thinking they should be able to win against people who've played a lot more, it's more that it's not fun to get into a match and be unable to do anything at all.
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This argument doesn't make a lot of sense, because:
1) pros will destroy people anyway whether it's 64, Melee, Brawl, or Smash 4; more importantly, though:
2) in the time period close to release strategies will be less developed (aka the skill gap won't be as big) and there is a significantly higher ratio of weak players to get matched up with, because you know the majority of people who buy this game aren't playing it much after like 2 months
3) For Fun + non 1v1 For Glory combined with playing with friends, and the fact that the pros themselves won't even be online that much (on the Wii U version) makes this even less likely
 
My XL's circle pad broke :( my niece dropped the console a few weeks ago and it got uncomfortable since then but today it I noticed it got worse, it's almost unusable. Soooo... I'm gonna have to temporarily transfer all my stuff to my OG and then I'm gonna buy one of those shiny Smash XLs, hopefully I can find one by the end of october, I'm super broke right now :(
 
theprodigy said:
This argument doesn't make a lot of sense, because 1) pros will destroy people anyway whether it's 64, Melee, Brawl, or Smash 4 and more importantly, 2) in the time period close to release strategies will be less developed (aka the skill gap won't be as big) and there is a significantly higher ratio of weak players to get matched up with.
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The point is to adjust the level between casual and pro. While you might still get stomped, it'll be never like Melee, where the mechanics are way more complicated than any other game.

You can take the same argument and say: "Pro players will always play good, so there's no excuse to say they game is not competitive viable." But don't take this last phrase too deep.


Sorry if any grammar mistake. Posting from mobile.
 
theprodigy said:
This argument doesn't make a lot of sense, because 1) pros will destroy people anyway whether it's 64, Melee, Brawl, or Smash 4 and more importantly, 2) in the time period close to release strategies will be less developed (aka the skill gap won't be as big) and there is a significantly higher ratio of weak players to get matched up with.
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Bingo. Maybe make the Wii U version be integrated well into Miiverse so people can share combos/tips/etc. Yeah there's Smashboards and shit but I think if it's more easily accessible people may be more willing to try new combos/techniques/whatever.
 
theprodigy said:
This argument doesn't make a lot of sense, because 1) pros will destroy people anyway whether it's 64, Melee, Brawl, or Smash 4 and more importantly, 2) in the time period close to release strategies will be less developed (aka the skill gap won't be as big) and there is a significantly higher ratio of weak players to get matched up with.
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I've experienced fighting games where I've gone online pretty close to launch and still gotten destroyed in every fight I played. It's not just a matter of pros beating you. It's a matter of a few core mechanics (like comboing) that aren't easy to learn and that new players really can't find ways to combat. It only takes a handful of major losses for a new player to get frustrated and stop playing a game, and high and medium level players will be playing more online matches than low level players, which means they'll be significantly easier to find.

The problem is that it isn't just pro players and casuals. The skill structure is more like a pyramid, where most people really aren't that good, but there are still plenty of mid level players aware of some of the higher level techniques even if they don't have the interest or skill to compete with a pro. Honestly, it isn't the super high level techniques that are putting off casuals, it's the mid level stuff that is fundamental to high level play, but absent at low level play, the stuff that takes a while to learn, but that isn't super inaccessible either.
 
Pikma said:
My XL's circle pad broke :( my niece dropped the console a few weeks ago and it got uncomfortable since then but today it I noticed it got worse, it's almost unusable. Soooo... I'm gonna have to temporarily transfer all my stuff to my OG and then I'm gonna buy one of those shiny Smash XLs, hopefully I can find one by the end of october, I'm super broke right now :(
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Not gonna wait to get a New 3DS? Customizable face plates and Xenoblade on the go Pikma!
 
Aaronrules380 said:
I've experienced fighting games where I've gone online pretty close to launch and still gotten destroyed in every fight I played. It's not just a matter of pros beating you. It's a matter of a few core mechanics (like comboing) that aren't easy to learn and that new players really can't find ways to combat. It only takes a handful of major losses for a new player to get frustrated and stop playing a game, and high and medium level players will be playing more online matches than low level players, which means they'll be significantly easier to find.

The problem is that it isn't just pro players and casuals. The skill structure is more like a pyramid, where most people really aren't that good, but there are still plenty of mid level players aware of some of the higher level techniques even if they don't have the interest or skill to compete with a pro. Honestly, it isn't the super high level techniques that are putting off casuals, it's the mid level stuff that is fundamental to high level play, but absent at low level play, the stuff that takes a while to learn, but that isn't super inaccessible either.
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....I feel like we're sort of talking past each other here
besides L-canceling and wavedashing, what ATs in Melee (or in the entire series) are even particularly difficult?
 
Aaronrules380 said:
Honestly, it isn't the super high level techniques that are putting off casuals, it's the mid level stuff that is fundamental to high level play, but absent at low level play, the stuff that takes a while to learn, but that isn't super inaccessible either.
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I don't think this is a mechanics problem though, more of a "lack of good tutorials" problem. Even Skullgirls/BlazBlue while having great tutorials I still feel don't have enough to them.
 
But the thing is Melee wasn't build based in the wavedashing/L-Canceling. If was just a "glitch" that they left there.

It'll be a different story if the game was build based in these techniques, but it wasn't.
 
mStudios said:
But the thing is Melee wasn't build based in the wavedashing/L-Canceling. If was just a "glitch" that they left there.

It'll be a different story if the game was build based in these techniques, but it wasn't.
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What would be the difference?
 
theprodigy said:
....I feel like we're sort of talking past each other here
besides L-canceling and wavedashing, what ATs in Melee (or in the entire series) are even particularly difficult?
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Honestly, I feel like comboing in general takes a while to learn, even when the games have training modes that teach you a lot of the combos. Honestly, I've played smash with plenty of people, and I can really think of only two people I've met who ever really did much comboing beyond super basic stuff like mash a for jab combo. That's why I said I'm not talking about advanced techniques. I'm talking about concepts that form the fundementals of high level play, but are absent or hard to grasp for low level and new players. Hence why I've said that I think that comboing is actually a huge part of the reason fighting games are niche. They're a core concept to be even decent, but they take quite a bit of time and practice to get down even on a very basic level
 
FSLink said:
I don't think this is a mechanics problem though, more of a "lack of good tutorials" problem. Even Skullgirls/BlazBlue while having great tutorials I still feel don't have enough to them.
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I'm honestly not convinced that making tutorials for combos that make them easy and intuitive for new players without putting in quite a bit of effort is a managable thing, since combos rely so much on a level of dexterity and quick reflexes that just don't come naturally to most people. Even if you know exactly which buttons to push, pushing them all in the right order in the very short time frame you're given can't really be done without a bunch of practice for most people
 
L-Cancelling isn't a glitch.

It was a feature in 64, a feature in Melee and then completely removed without re-adding anything to compensate, much like a lot of the aspects that made 64 and Melee interesting but were removed in Brawl.
 
Tan said:
What would be the difference?
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The difference is people shouldn't be expecting these techniques in any other smash. The game wasn't build around these techniques, that's why Sakurai won't put them back. It's not like melee is "depeer" it was just a funny glitch that people took advantage of it.

The first question when the demo came out was: "Wavedashing? PLEASE L-CANCELING"
 
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