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[ffdgh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szd9f7i1Qo8

Not as bad as Brawl, but something like this shouldn't even be a thing.

Sakurai fix this ****.

 

[Cosmic Dreams]

Yeah, Miyamoto thought it was online. I do not blame him because the way they were advertising it. Also with local play having issues, I am even less willing to try it out.

lol even Miyamoto's bummed out. But really though, an online option would've been great. Me and my buddies were hoping for that, but we're all disappointed that won't happen. Smash matches it is.

Imagine if a hitstun option replaced the knockback option on the settings menu (or why not just both).

That would be amazing.

Though would tournaments ever actually use that, I thought we might be able to put it down to 0.9 in Smash 4 to try and increase the combo game, but changing those options always feels a bit... weird to me.



Character balance and infinite removal is what's going to happen as far as I can imagine, I highly doubt Sakurai would ever implement mechanical changes in a patch.

I don't even think he'd do it if there was overwhelming demand for it, but that's just my impression of his seemingly stubborn attitude.

Yeah Sakurai's hardheaded when it comes to this (see:Brawl Online) so i'm just being hopeful. Maybe he'll surprise us, or maybe he won't care to want to. lol Time will tell until Smash 5 is announced.

Developers rarely make big, worthwhile to changes in the games engine. The outliers would be Icefrog in Dota 2, and those changes come twice a year and are watched carefully and arguably still aren't massive mechanics changes. Blizzard waits til each new revision of SC2 and still doesn't change game mechanics. There are a few others but really nothing new.

Chances of an update changing core mechanics like JoeInky, me, and others are hoping for are slim-to-none. You should expect numbers balancing, and maybe small changes to stuff like recoveries, vectoring, etc etc.

Which is probably what will happen. Oh well, better than nothing I suppose.

 

[JoeInky]

Am I the only one who doesn't get why long combos that are impossible to escape are something to be desired? I feel like I'd rather have read based follow ups that require thought on the part of both players while the combo is underway rather than letting one player be able to go on autopilot and do a ton of damage while the other person waits helplessly for the combo to end so they have a chance to escape. I also feel like those type of combos give certain types of characters a huge advantage (namely ones who are quick and have an easy time getting the first hit to initiate the long combo, since once they get a hit in it leads to a combo that gives them a much bigger advantage). I'm not a fighting game expert, or a competitive smasher, but I honestly feel like those types of combos show less skill since they essentially boil down to muscle memorization at the end of the day.

The problem in Smash 4 is that "Read based follow ups" barely exist due to KBI.

DI actually gave you read based followups, if they were so bothered about people finding it hard to escape combos then they should have increased the angle of influence you had to give yourself a better position.

 

[PKGaming]

Am I the only one who doesn't get why long combos that are impossible to escape are something to be desired? I feel like I'd rather have read based follow ups that require thought on the part of both players while the combo is underway rather than letting one player be able to go on autopilot and do a ton of damage while the other person waits helplessly for the combo to end so they have a chance to escape. I also feel like those type of combos give certain types of characters a huge advantage (namely ones who are quick and have an easy time getting the first hit to initiate the long combo, since once they get a hit in it leads to a combo that gives them a much bigger advantage). I'm not a fighting game expert, or a competitive smasher, but I honestly feel like those types of combos show less skill since they essentially boil down to muscle memorization at the end of the day.

I kind of agree with this. For the most part, I'm not a fan of increased hitstun because like I said a few pages back, it gives me that feeling of not being in complete control of my character. A little hitstun to lead into certain attacks is fine, but I hate being airborne and not being able to move at all for what feels like forever (even though I know it's just like a second or 2). And airborne doesn't necessarily mean being launched off the stage, just being in the air in general after an attack.

 

[Crayolan]

Am I the only one who doesn't get why long combos that are impossible to escape are something to be desired? I feel like I'd rather have read based follow ups that require thought on the part of both players while the combo is underway rather than letting one player be able to go on autopilot and do a ton of damage while the other person waits helplessly for the combo to end so they have a chance to escape. I also feel like those type of combos give certain types of characters a huge advantage (namely ones who are quick and have an easy time getting the first hit to initiate the long combo, since once they get a hit in it leads to a combo that gives them a much bigger advantage). I'm not a fighting game expert, or a competitive smasher, but I honestly feel like those types of combos show less skill since they essentially boil down to muscle memorization at the end of the day.

There doesn't need to be super long combos or 0 to 100's or anything. I just want combos to be able to wrack up damage quicker (which is especially helpful in this game) and to avoid the monotony of knocking a character off the stage, waiting for them to come back slowly, knocking them off again, and again, and again, until they finally hit 200% or whatever and die. More hitstun gives me a bigger opportunity to get a more powerful hit off more safely and kill them at significantly lower percents.

I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable competitive people in this thread can give you much better reasons though.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

 

[ffdgh]

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

Woah what? I dub thee....PK wall jump!

 

[Jawmuncher]

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

I thought hitting the side would always reset so you could pull off another recovery if fast enough?

 

[Revven]

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

He no longer crashes into the wall with Up B and automatically dies like he did in Brawl if he did the same thing -- he is able to do another Up B after bouncing off unlike before.

 

[PKGaming]

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

Oooooooooooooooooh YES!!!

 

[Timeaisis]

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

Neat.

 

[FSLink]

There doesn't need to be super long combos or 0 to 100's or anything. I just want combos to be able to wrack up damage quicker (which is especially helpful in this game) and to avoid the monotony of knocking a character off the stage, waiting for them to come back slowly, knocking them off again, and again, and again, until they finally hit 200% or whatever and die. More hitstun gives me a bigger opportunity to get a more powerful hit off more safely and kill them at significantly lower percents.

Pretty much this. It's why I'm really liking Little Mac at the moment.

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

Yesss, this will help in making recovery a bit more unpredictable, though if the opponent is at low enough percent they could intentionally be hit by PK Thunder 2 to gimp Ness.

 

[Cosmic Dreams]

edit - nvm found it

 

[Aaronrules380]

The problem in Smash 4 is that "Read based follow ups" barely exist due to KBI.

DI actually gave you read based followups, if they were so bothered about people finding it hard to escape combos then they should have increased the angle of influence you had to give yourself a better position.

I'm not really arguing specifically about Smash 4 this time, more just general. Also, I feel like this also applies to people who want a ton of hitstun since I feel like they want that so there will be more long, inescapable combos. For example, you said you wanted Smash 64 hitstun, but I think hitstun at that level where it leads to zero-death combos is way too much IMO

 

[MrSaturn99]

He no longer crashes into the wall with Up B and automatically dies like he did in Brawl if he did the same thing -- he is able to do another Up B after bouncing off unlike before.

:OOOO

what a twist!

 

[Aaronrules380]

There doesn't need to be super long combos or 0 to 100's or anything. I just want combos to be able to wrack up damage quicker (which is especially helpful in this game) and to avoid the monotony of knocking a character off the stage, waiting for them to come back slowly, knocking them off again, and again, and again, until they finally hit 200% or whatever and die. More hitstun gives me a bigger opportunity to get a more powerful hit off more safely and kill them at significantly lower percents.

I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable competitive people in this thread can give you much better reasons though.

I feel like this hasn't been the case from what I've watched though. Yeah, some matchups have lasted to around 180%, but from watching early tournaments those weren't that common, and were probably also related to unfamiliarity with the game and which moves killed the best and not just the game itself. And honestly, I feel like gimping recoveries has been more emphasized in this game, and that's always been one of the coolest things to watch in competitive smash IMO

 

[Spinosaurus]

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

That's really nice. No more bounce off the wall SDs lol

 

[Cosmic Dreams]

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

so dope

 

[Otakumegane]

Is he teching off the wall there?

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

When people talk combos for Smash what you're talking about is exactly what people want. The thing is, even with Smash 4's current hitstun it's not enough to allow for that interaction -- combos are really tight at higher percentages compared to Melee (which, by the way, Melee allows for the interaction in combos you're talking about. There's all kinds of reads being done in Melee to get some of the more famous combos you've seen).

However, even if the game had really high hitstun like Smash 64 things wouldn't be that "memorization" oriented because you still need to account for positioning, percentage, how big the character is, weight, fall speed, etc. etc.

I'm of the opinion that at the very least combos like in Smash 64 are better than ridiculously tight 'combos' that are otherwise unviable most of the time or are bound to be unviable as people get better at the game or no combos being in the game at all.

Smash 64 with more characters and some tweaks would be the favorite Smash ;]

Smash 4 without dodging would be a better game IMO, allowing for more combos. That's probably a controversial opinion to have with the large majority of Smashers being fans after 64, but after years of playing all games.. It's too damn satisfying, mostly for teams. 1v1's in 64 can be a snoozefest though, which is where Melee excels.

FUNfact: superboomfan (pro 64 Canadian player) visited Peru recently and played a ~1.5 hour 1v1 match, and won but it killed his drive to play anymore, after so many years lol.

 

[theprodigy]

Smash 64 with more characters and some tweaks would be the favorite Smash ;]

Smash 4 without dodging would be a better game IMO, allowing for more combos. That's probably a controversial opinion to have with the large majority of Smashers being fans after 64, but after years of playing all games.. It's too damn satisfying, mostly for teams. 1v1's in 64 can be a snoozefest though, which is where Melee excels.

FUNfact: superboomfan (pro 64 Canadian player) visited Peru recently and played a ~1.5 hour 1v1 match, and won but it killed his drive to play anymore, after so many years lol.

holy shit this is why they have a timer now

 

[Crayolan]

I feel like this hasn't been the case from what I've watched though. Yeah, some matchups have lasted to around 180%, but from watching early tournaments those weren't that common, and were probably also related to unfamiliarity with the game and which moves killed the best and not just the game itself. And honestly, I feel like gimping recoveries has been more emphasized in this game, and that's always been one of the coolest things to watch in competitive smash IMO

Personally I've noticed it in a lot of gameplay I've seen and through what I've played in the demo. Maybe it is just due to early low level play so far and things will change, I guess we'll see.

 

[Pompadour]

There doesn't need to be super long combos or 0 to 100's or anything. I just want combos to be able to wrack up damage quicker (which is especially helpful in this game) and to avoid the monotony of knocking a character off the stage, waiting for them to come back slowly, knocking them off again, and again, and again, until they finally hit 200% or whatever and die. More hitstun gives me a bigger opportunity to get a more powerful hit off more safely and kill them at significantly lower percents.

I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable competitive people in this thread can give you much better reasons though.

You know, I'm a little surprised with how beginner friendly Sakurai wants to make Smash that he didn't incorporate some easy-to-learn combo system that works on most of the cast. Like if a character is under a certain percent their percentage is colored yellow and they can do any sort of "yellow combo" regardless of their weight or DI or VI inputs. This could go for white or orange, with maybe weight coming into play when at around 75%. At 100% it's like normal Smash where you have to make reads on the opponents DI and combos are less combos and more like strings.

I guess that isn't immediately more beginner friendly because there's a lot to figure out but the way Melee works in regards to the comboing is certainly not. I'd argue the skill, matchup knowledge, and reflexes required to string together combos in Melee is harder than some rote memorization.

 

[JoeInky]

Is he teching off the wall there?

Nope, you don't even need to press UpB as you hit the wall or anything, just before you go into special fall.

It can only be done once per airtime and it could be a pretty good edgeguard tech for Ness (for those rare few people that recovery low), but I don't think I really wanted yet another thing in the game that can keep me living even longer.

Project Recovery indeed.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Personally I've noticed it in a lot of gameplay I've seen and through what I've played in the demo. Maybe it is just due to early low level play so far and things will change, I guess we'll see.

I mean, it takes longer to take a stock than Melee, but pretty much every 3 stock match I've seen in the various streamed tournaments still ended with a few minutes still left on the clock. And I feel like a lot of the time when matches did last a long time, it was because someone was playing a character whose focus was projectiles and who wasn't going in for the kills. And that was also the case for super high percent deaths, it was usually either a character focusing on projectiles and not going in for closer ranged kill attacks, or a character who wracked up damage much quicker, but killed at higher percents for balance, which I think is reasonable.

I honestly think it helps the balance that some characters can't kill at low percents, because those characters usually cause damage much more quickly anyways. If every character could kill at very similar percents it'd make slower characters fairly useless, just like it did in every smash game we've seen

 

[BY2K]

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

He tech'd the collision with the wall and followed up with another PK Thunder?

 

[Incendiary]

Ugh I don't think I'm going to be able to make it through the rest of this week. I don't want to work, I just want to go to sleep and wake up on Friday so I can play Smash!

In other news, the Gerudo Valley music remix is absolutely sick. I've been listening to it over and over. Really looking forward to being able to listen to the whole 3DS soundtrack soon.

 

[J@hranimo]

Whaaaat is going on here (take a look, Ness fans)

Wait WHAT?I thought you become helpless if you just hit a wall with PK Thunder 2?

 

[MrSaturn99]

Ugh I don't think I'm going to be able to make it through the rest of this week. I don't want to work, I just want to go to sleep and wake up on Friday so I can play Smash!

In other news, the Gerudo Valley music remix is absolutely sick. I've been listening to it over and over. Really looking forward to being able to listen to the whole 3DS soundtrack soon.

I haven't even listened to most of the YT rips. Friday is gonna be suuuuuuuuch music euphoria DDD

He tech'd the collision with the wall and followed up with another PK Thunder?

He didn't tech off the wall.

 

[Aaronrules380]

You know, I'm a little surprised with how beginner friendly Sakurai wants to make Smash that he didn't incorporate some easy-to-learn combo system that works on most of the cast. Like if a character is under a certain percent their percentage is colored yellow and they can do any sort of "yellow combo" regardless of their weight or DI or VI inputs. This could go for white or orange, with maybe weight coming into play when at around 75%. At 100% it's like normal Smash where you have to make reads on the opponents DI and combos are less combos and more like strings.

I guess that isn't immediately more beginner friendly because there's a lot to figure out but the way Melee works in regards to the comboing is certainly not. I'd argue the skill, matchup knowledge, and reflexes required to string together combos in Melee is harder than some rote memorization.

Reflexes are kind of an essential part of muscle memorization. And matchups just means there's much more to memorize, although given a large portion of the cast won't be viable anyways, and one could easily focus on memorizing the major threats and then adapting slightly to go against a similar character, And honestly, I never said Melee was bad about it in the first place, I just dislike the concept of true combos since I think being stuck in a combo unable to do a thing isn't fun, and that they can sometimes allow a matches momentum to change significantly from a single lucky hit that leads into a combo

 

[TheSlySoul]

Ugh I don't think I'm going to be able to make it through the rest of this week. I don't want to work, I just want to go to sleep and wake up on Friday so I can play Smash!

I know that feeling. I was in that mood today. I am going against my hype for the next 2 days. I am off Thursday so hype away for me. Also, it releases on eShop at 12 EST right?

 

[theprodigy]

Nope, you don't even need to press UpB as you hit the wall or anything, just before you go into special fall.

It can only be done once per airtime and it could be a pretty good edgeguard tech for Ness (for those rare few people that recovery low), but I don't think I really wanted yet another thing in the game that can keep me living even longer.

Project Recovery indeed.

but we already made Project Recovery, it's called Project M!

 

[JoeInky]

but we already made Project Recovery, it's called Project M!

That'll probably be fixed by 3.5.


I'm almost dreading 3.5, I may end up playing it too much and dropping smash 4 completely for it.

Smash 4 has HD visuals, new characters, custom moves and easier online.

But I don't know if that's enough when the actual bit that matters, the gameplay, in Project M will be so much better, not to mention all those brilliant actual alt costumes and the fact that most PM characters are more fun than their Smash 4 counterparts.

 

[Tan]

That'll probably be fixed by 3.5.


I'm almost dreading 3.5, I may end up playing it too much and dropping smash 4 completely for it.

Smash 4 has HD visuals, new characters, custom moves and easier online.

But I don't know if that's enough when the actual bit that matters, the gameplay, in Project M will be so much better, not to mention all those brilliant actual alt costumes and the fact that most PM characters are more fun than their Smash 4 counterparts.

Also Ridley

Spoiler

maybe

Spoiler

Probably not

 

[Crocodile]

I don't think this is true honestly.

Sakurai either doesn't fully understand what the competitive side wants or just plain doesn't care. His comment about the fact that to make it more competitive he'd have to make the game more complicated to play really solidified the notion for me. The fact that there's nothing really in Smash 4 that I'd say "Yeah, I can see that he added this for the competitive audience" doesn't help either.

Stuff like removing tripping and adding non-cancellable hitstun isn't something made with the competitive audience in mind, it's just fixing some legitimately bad game design from Brawl.

I mean, right at this second I'm struggling to think of anything in Smash4 that I can see him adding for the competitive players, it all just seems like fundamental problems that shouldn't have been in Brawl in the first place.

If there was some kind of turbo mode or something that increased hitstun+shieldstun, had momentum conservation and halved all landing lag then that I could see as something geared towards the competitive side, but most of the things people bring up I see as neither here nor there.

How in the world is it not? Even correcting previous design decisions is still a nod to the competitive community. Do you explicitly want new mechanics? Well that can be dangerous and lead to mechanic/complexity creep (which is a real issue for almost any game) but even then you've got stuff like the new ledge mechanics which they said on stream (see the E3 Treehouse streams) were made with the competitive community in mind. For Glory and the Omega stages were obviously done with the competitive community in mind even if you can argue they didn't go far enough since they didn't include platform versions or listened too much to the Japanese/online side with preference given to Final Destination.

As for the last suggestion, turbo modes are a great way to segment the competitive community because I'm 100% there would be those who prefer the "slower" option. It's one of those ideas that seems like it would be allowing for more options but it would end up just being decisive and problematic.

 

[theprodigy]

Also Ridley

Spoiler

maybe

Spoiler

Probably not

Spoiler

definitely not

 

[FSLink]

That'll probably be fixed by 3.5.


I'm almost dreading 3.5, I may end up playing it too much and dropping smash 4 completely for it.

Smash 4 has HD visuals, new characters, custom moves and easier online.

But I don't know if that's enough when the actual bit that matters, the gameplay, in Project M will be so much better, not to mention all those brilliant actual alt costumes and the fact that most PM characters are more fun than their Smash 4 counterparts.

Yeah though I do think because of its "modded" nature Project M will always be a niche despite the high quality of the mod. I'll most likely stick with just Smash 4 and Ultra SF4 just due to the amount of people who will be playing and my limited time to be focusing on fighting games, lol.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

but we already made Project Recovery, it's called Project M!

Wonder if Link will end up being absolute ass again when this is fixed. XD

 

[PreyingShark]

There's a store near me doing a midnight launch.

Shame I have midterms the next day since i wouldn't get home until after i would have to leave to catch the midterm.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

holy shit this is why they have a timer now

And there are still a few against it LOL

That'll probably be fixed by 3.5.


I'm almost dreading 3.5, I may end up playing it too much and dropping smash 4 completely for it.

Smash 4 has HD visuals, new characters, custom moves and easier online.

But I don't know if that's enough when the actual bit that matters, the gameplay, in Project M will be so much better, not to mention all those brilliant actual alt costumes and the fact that most PM characters are more fun than their Smash 4 counterparts.

If only Dolphin was able to run on a toaster.. PM would have a better chance at being the go-to Smash game for tournaments.

 

[PK Gaming]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szd9f7i1Qo8

Not as bad as Brawl, but something like this shouldn't even be a thing.

Jeez what a pain

That's what happens when you directly port over a character

I hope it gets patched, but knowing my luck...

 

[PreyingShark]

Jeez what a pain

That's what happens when you directly port over a character

I hope it gets patched, but knowing my luck...

Don't worry, it will get patched.

...So that every char has a follow-up.

 

[Askherserenity]

So has anyones circle pad broken? My friends did just now and I'm wondering how much of a hassle it would be to fix it/find a circle pad replacement.

 

[SirPainsalot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szd9f7i1Qo8

Not as bad as Brawl, but something like this shouldn't even be a thing.

Jesus, hope they patch shit like this out

 

[Hatchtag]

The Wario follow up is pretty bad and should probably be patched, but at least Wario is a character that very easily dominates Little Mac. I don't think this would change it so that Wario didn't still dominate Little Mac, honestly.

 

[KLatin Scelus]

Also Ridley

Spoiler

maybe

Spoiler

Probably not

What's this about Ridley and Project M? I've been hearing it a lot lately.

 

[Hatchtag]

What's this about Ridley and Project M? I've been hearing it a lot lately.

Dillusions. Ridley will be in an official Smash game before he's part of the official release of Project M.

 

[Thorakai]

So besides Sakurai, are there any staff members that had a hand in the development of all the Smash games? Seems like a shame that there isn't a steady team in place to develop one of the top earning franchises for Nintendo. Doesn't seem smart to keep putting together teams that have to continually re-learn how to develop a Smash game.

I should add that I ask because it seems the biggest limiting factor for DLC/balance patches is having to convince/pay Namco Bandai to revert their staff to develop someone else's game.

 

[Golnei]

What's this about Ridley and Project M? I've been hearing it a lot lately.

A video of this Ridley moveset was circulating with the erroneous assumption it'd be included in the next PM build.

 

[J@hranimo]

A video of this Ridley moveset was circulating with the erroneous assumption it'd be included in the next PM build.

My god his wings.