Anton Sugar
Member
Without knowing anything about Season 2's storyline, there's no reason why they couldn't have female leads.
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True Detective - McConaughey/Harrelson crime series - S2 starts June 21st
- Thread starter Cornballer
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Without knowing anything about Season 2's storyline, there's no reason why they couldn't have female leads.
I don't think the show is anti-woman so much as anti-female-perspective. If the show is simply being sexist and demeaning to women, that would be an easier thing to criticize and discuss. The problem here is that it's a highly intellectual character driven show which demonstrates a strong ability to allow audiences to really understand characters with a degree of depth - but it uses that narrative power to tell a story which is essentially an exclusive men's club. While there's nothing inherently wrong with that, I can't help but feel that it's a bit of a waste - because there are interesting female characters on the show, but they exist solely to play against the male leads in the narrative as supporting thematic elements. That coupled with the fact that the narrative is about women being victims and dealing with abuse in various ways, makes for a presentation which is very noticeably unbalanced.
I didn't say there should be. I just think it's a silly discussion when you can get the answer straight from the author.
I agree. There's also some weird choices made, basically that if you're a hot female character your tits will be out. Or Beth- that scene is kinda tragic, but it's filmed in a way that titillates.
Yes. Claiming exclusive privilege to interpret based on tribal Identity is gross.
Women aren't making that claim, I am. I am not equipped with sufficient life experience to be able to speak intelligently on this particular issue, especially given how specific and subtle this show can be.
You don't need to spoiler that.
at its heart the show is about two detectives and how they and their partnerships evolved over a period of 17 years. Their relationships to everyone around them is ancillary and not the main narrative focus. The women are underdeveloped and are there to serve the story of the two male leads. If that sort of thing bothers some people then it is fine. People have different expectations out of fictional work. For me if the other characters merely exist to serve the tale of the two protagonists then it is ok. I can live with that and I am enjoying it as it is right now.
I don't care about the female characters being underdeveloped as much because no one otuside of Rust and Marty is developed.
I just think the sex scenes are designed entirely for viewers and look exactly like any Showtime or HBO sex scene and don't fit in any kind of smart series that's trying to say something about the characters and their thoughts. Your opinion on Marty changes so much based on having a hot young girl ride him
PhoenixDark
Banned
He's a detective, it comes with the job in many places. Detectives, cops, firefighters, etc clean up at bars.
Anton Sugar
Member
That's what I'm saying, and kinda what you said, too: who cares about the author's intent? If the intent of the author isn't adequately portrayed in the show, then that's that. Not every audience member is going to read Pizzolatto's interviews, nor should they have to. It's like "I'm sorry if you got offended..." apologies or "But I didn't mean it like THAT..." kind of statements.
My thoughts on "show vs author" is just questioning a)what Pizzolatto is trying to portray with his women (i.e. authorial intent) and b)how women actually end up being portrayed on the show.
The "I want to try anal" scene was awkward for me. Almost like the show is going a little too far in the elbow-nudging "eh eh, it's anal, he can't resist!" direction. I think it tips towards "Marty is a monster but holy SHIT, have you seen this chick's body?"
It's less of a subtle critique and more of a creepy wink.
I agree there isn't a great variety of female roles in the show (though the show follows the protagonists' perspective so close, that it kind of make sense, it's obviously the world through their eyes, the one we're seeing), however using a term as "anti-women" (using the word "anti" at all) seems preposterous to me.
Underdeveloping something doesn't mean you're against it.
Underdeveloping something doesn't mean you're against it.
I'm sure his confidence and manner of speaking gives him some extra points other men don't get normally.
Anton Sugar
Member
I think it's interesting that we didn't have as many "Marty is a monster" comments until this past episode. Up until that point, he had already:
-Cheated on his wife, multiple times
-Broke into his mistress's apartment and threatened her lover
-Committed murder
Marty hasn't really changed, he's just gone further down the spiral. Like he and Maggie said, he's been "fucked up" for a while now.
-Cheated on his wife, multiple times
-Broke into his mistress's apartment and threatened her lover
-Committed murder
Marty hasn't really changed, he's just gone further down the spiral. Like he and Maggie said, he's been "fucked up" for a while now.
DKehoe
Gold Member
He is also now a local hero because of the shootout.
RustyNails
Member
The man loves ass. He's an assman. Dude ate out that stenographer's ass like its apple pie. Lord knows Marty wants to do the same with Beth.
yep. should let single-gaf in on this revelation. get in a shootout and save some kids in the process, get big butts thrown your way all the time.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
I like Alyssa Rosenberg's the most:
http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2014/02/24/3322541/true-detective/#
Cornballer
Member
Thanks, I'll add them in up top.
EDIT:
- Alyssa Rosenberg: Why Men Should Want ‘True Detective’ To Have Great, Nuanced Female Characters
- Molly Lambert for Grantland: Her Looming Shadow Grows: The Complex Women of ‘True Detective’
Marty being unfaithful isn't that repulsive to me. What really gets under my skin is that when he is unfaithful he begs for a second chance, and a third chance, but the only way to really terminate a relationship (in this case his marriage) with him is if the other person is unfaithful to him. Just gross.
I think two of the things that have been brought up (is the show anti-women and/or advocating nihilism) are just a fundamental misunderstanding of what's happening in the first place. Rust Cohle's nihilism and speechifying on the circular nature of life is a crutch, something that he vomits out to get through the day. That's why when you say something like "It's another case where it's difficult to separate the characters' ideas from the show runner's" I find it difficult to believe. Neither of the two leads believe their own bullshit so I don't see why that would be reflected by the author.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Right? Marty's one of the biggest scumbags I've seen on TV recently.
Askherserenity
Member
Yeah, about the way females are viewed in the show discussion, I think they did alright with Maggie. I feel like she went found out about Marty's shit and decided to get payback on her own...and what's the best way to do that? Sleep with Rust of course. I don't think she was just there throughout the whole show just to be used as temptation. She played a major role in one of the more important parts in the story, the fallout between Rust and Marty.
You can even tell that she feels bad about doing what she did when the detectives are questioning her.
I would love for a female to get one of the lead roles next season but I can't agree with people saying that they just use females as temptation or whatever.
You can even tell that she feels bad about doing what she did when the detectives are questioning her.
I would love for a female to get one of the lead roles next season but I can't agree with people saying that they just use females as temptation or whatever.
Not to mention that he expressed concern for her safety years before. Makes perfect sense that she'd idolize him.
Also he's just... a regular guy.....
Totally untrue. People have been saying since Ep 2 or so that he's more fucked up than Rust, in various ways.
Episode 6 suffers from being the tail-end of the "2nd act" of the series. If it were a different medium, it wouldn't be as flawed. Unfortunately, it also lacks the subtlety of the preceding episodes.
Most of "Haunted Houses" affirms what was alluded to in the "1st act," sans one bit of evidence: there was more than two men at the scene; The King in Yellow is still out there. Cohle's already induced that the ministry organization was involved and this affirms the venality of the administration above him.
What is important in Episodes 1–6 is the history between Marty and Cohle. All of this characterization certainly allows us see the journey these two men have taken since stumbling on to the case. I don't think the show would carry the same impact without it.
We see their faults, their strengths, their tenacity, and their disenchantment with the job. Given what's happened so far, I don't doubt we'll have a compelling "3rd act." Once the entire season has been broadcasted, I think I'll look back on "Haunted Houses" in a better light.
For now, it's just interstitial, the ramp up to the culmination of the series. Bring on next Sunday.
Most of "Haunted Houses" affirms what was alluded to in the "1st act," sans one bit of evidence: there was more than two men at the scene; The King in Yellow is still out there. Cohle's already induced that the ministry organization was involved and this affirms the venality of the administration above him.
What is important in Episodes 1–6 is the history between Marty and Cohle. All of this characterization certainly allows us see the journey these two men have taken since stumbling on to the case. I don't think the show would carry the same impact without it.
We see their faults, their strengths, their tenacity, and their disenchantment with the job. Given what's happened so far, I don't doubt we'll have a compelling "3rd act." Once the entire season has been broadcasted, I think I'll look back on "Haunted Houses" in a better light.
For now, it's just interstitial, the ramp up to the culmination of the series. Bring on next Sunday.
I'm not gonna stand here and argue that a big part of these sex scenes HBO does, aren't to titillate the male (hetero) audience, and generally i have nothing against that in a show like Banshee or Game of Thrones, though in something like True Detective, you'd expect a bit more high-brow approach.
HOWEVER, a sex scene is also a narrative element to convey what the characters are feeling, in this case, Marty's lust.
Just like a brutal killing scene wants to show you the horror first hand, seeing Marty having sex with a beautiful young woman in a visually appealing sex scene, conveys lust in a very direct manner, which is what it is supposed to do.
Of course you can have any manner of sex scene (Rust with Maggie for example was quite different).
So bottomline, a sex scene being sexy isn't just straight up male fan service, but also a narrative way to convey a character's lust, which in this case was kind of crucial to explain Marty's "relapse".
I think the context is crucial.
For example he murdered in an explosive fit of rage that although not condonable, it's at least more comprehensible than something as methodical and creepy as beating those kids with so much premeditation.
Similarly, cheating on his wife was bad, cheating on his wife even AFTER she had been willing to forgive him and give him another chance, is obviously worse and more humiliating for her.
EDIT: What Duckroll said, too.
I've been thinking about something. Spoilers ahead:
It just got me thinking, that's all. I guess we'll find out, soon enough.
Doesn't anyone find it strange that Francis (the PCP guy) and Tuttle both comitted suicide once it's revealed that they were tied to the Yellow King / cult conspiracy in some way? We can see from the preview that Rust breaks into Tuttle's home in search for evidence that will most certainly tie him directly to the cult.
When Rust is speaking with Gilbough and Papania about circles, he already has a good grasp how "they" view things, most notably; time. Life and death are part of a circle that repeats itself over and over. Could it be that both of them killed themselves, brainwashed in the belief that they'll be resurrected? If they were brainwashed to have that line of thought (it seems that Francis needed some extra nudging), it is certainly plausible, and is the only good explanation I can come up with.
When Rust is speaking with Gilbough and Papania about circles, he already has a good grasp how "they" view things, most notably; time. Life and death are part of a circle that repeats itself over and over. Could it be that both of them killed themselves, brainwashed in the belief that they'll be resurrected? If they were brainwashed to have that line of thought (it seems that Francis needed some extra nudging), it is certainly plausible, and is the only good explanation I can come up with.
It just got me thinking, that's all. I guess we'll find out, soon enough.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
Its one thing to say there is a lack of female perspective, its another to claim misogyny. There is a portion of the internet where those are synonymous... they are clearly not.
Anton Sugar
Member
Wow, didn't see the Ep 7 promo until this morning. Seems likely that
Marty's daughter is involved, somehow.
PhoenixDark
Banned
It felt rather cheap to me, especially the article title which was something along the lines of "Why That Scene in True Detective was Overrated." Buzzfeed quality click bait tactics. Even if you were uncomfortable with the content, it was a great scene on a technical and narrative level - nothing she wrote addressed that, and instead focused on other stuff. If you've been to the projects, specifically a gang run project, you know that's how it looks. If Cohle had helped a black gang infiltrate the white biker gang's trailer park it would have looked quite similar - automatic weapons, drugs, etc.
Honestly her article really seemed like white guilt to me, as if she tried her hardest to find a way to be offended by the portrayal of a gang set that happened to be black.
He doesn't chastise the daughter for the age difference, that's merely an excuse to abuse his control over her.
I agree though that it shows Marty's hypocrisy, once again.
Cornballer
Member
Episode 7 & 8 are scheduled for 1 hr according to HBO's grid.
neoism
Member
I liked last nights episode but I'm really sad it played down that way... it's getting too predictable.
the little girl screaming and shit.. just smh
Still glad MM is still flawless.. Rust is still Rust, but the story is getting disappointing. :/. Worst ep of the season/series...
the little girl screaming and shit.. just smh
Still glad MM is still flawless.. Rust is still Rust, but the story is getting disappointing. :/. Worst ep of the season/series...
Kadayi
Banned
I think you're underestimating how much of a kick in the balls Maggie gave him. It wasn't simply a case of her sleeping with any old random Ying Yang looking for some tail. She had the opportunity to do that when she went to the wine bar. There would likely be every possibility that Marty would potentially come crawling back to her on hands and knees after a few weeks later because just as his infidelities could be passed off as nothing, it wouldn't be inconceivable that he'd rationalize hers the same.
Cohle isn't an anonymous nobody she hitched up with for one night in a bar. Cohle is someone whose been part of the very fabric of both Marty & Maggie's life for the last seven years. It's a little too close to home to ever be brushed aside, especially with the barbed commentary on how hard Cohle had fucked her just to really rub salt into Marty's bruised masculine ego (Marla Singers: 'My God. I haven't been fucked like that since grade school' sprang to mind).
As I said in some of my earlier posts. I personally loved it . I thought how Maggie chose to play it was fantastic and not because she's some 'vindictive super cunt' (as I saw someone post elsewhere on the net), but because she absolutely knows she needs to end this unhealthy marriage once and for all and the only way to achieve that is by blowing it up thermonuclear so that Marty will never ever be able to see past her infidelity, because at heart she doesn't trust herself not to forgive him. But the only way for her to achieve her goal is to throw the one actual decent man she knows under the bus in the process. That's the tragedy to the whole situation because in a lot of ways Maggie & Rust could of been a good thing, but it was never about Maggie swapping life partners, it was Maggie escaping her marriage. As with anything thermonuclear, there's a lot of fallout.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Have faith man, judging by the preview the next one is gonna be fucking nuts.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I'm referring to her characterization that the tracking shot played up the worst racism for shock value.
The anti-women angle I understand. I probably should have said I disagreed with rather than 'have a problem with.' She's entitled to her opinion I just didn't see it as being backed up
I'm sure rust truly believes his own rhetoric.
Yeah that scene and the little devil during the sex scene shot, had me rolling my eyes.
On a related note, it's weird how, despite the quality of the show, we basically got every cliché in the book.
It's refreshing to read articles about these subjects that are clear and reasoned, without coming off as hostile towards the creators of the fiction and its fans.
Great articles, both of them.
agreed hopefully people give them a chance even if they love the show.
like a lot of shows on TV they're punch bags and/or quest givers. If that's the story they want to tell then fine but it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise when people react poorly to this nowadays.
I think adding things like the anal phone call scene as some sort of male viewer wank fantasy is a misstep but that's just my opinion.
neoism
Member
ok lol I don't watch previews... It just seems that was the laziest way the writer could do the story....
And Rust fucking Mags was just weird and awesome.
seemed a little out of character but he was pissed when he could think again lol BUT GODDAMN Michelle wow.. Marty is a shit-heel.Anton Sugar
Member
Yeah, I thought that was completely unnecessary.
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