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Xbox profits revealed in new FTC leak (Update: margins are not operating profit, article was misinformative)

Topher

Gold Member
I fully admit my ignorance on the matter and I'm trying to piece it together. I believe in previous reports Sony has said that operating income was lower due to costs associated with Bungie, but someone would have to fact check me on that. Even if the acquisition itself wasn't included in that number, I would imagine part of the 1.2 billion payout for employee retention would be

I looked into this further. The income statement does include "expenses associated with acquisitions" but not really the acquisition itself. So that would be whatever is required to get the deal done. I'm guessing a shit-ton of lawyer fees and perhaps the employee retention as well, not sure about that one though.

SEp0Lc4.png
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
Accountability margin sounds like an entirely made up income method that is non-GAAP, which is then being compared to Sony/Nintendo income which is GAAP. It is a pointless comparison unless they explain what accountability margin actually is.

Besides, I think the more interesting information in the OP is that they projected 35 million Gamepass subs by end of FY23, and with one quarter to go they only have 24 million.
It's not made up. It's saying they added that amount to the company's bottom line. Microsoft's accounting doesn't report individual projects or divisions in their financials, but each division track how much they earn and how much they beam up to the mothership.
 

vivftp

Member
I looked into this further. The income statement does include "expenses associated with acquisitions" but not really the acquisition itself. So that would be whatever is required to get the deal done. I'm guessing a shit-ton of lawyer fees and perhaps the employee retention as well, not sure about that one though.

SEp0Lc4.png

Nifty, thanks. So associated expenses and maybe a portion of the 1.2 billion employee retention would have been factored in to SIEs figure
 

Topher

Gold Member
Nifty, thanks. So associated expenses and maybe a portion of the 1.2 billion employee retention would have been factored in to SIEs figure

Yeah, I would think so since that would seem to me to be an expense rather than a change in assets. Not 100% but it makes sense to me.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I don't think so. That's not an expense, per se. An acquisition is a change in assets. That's what has been said in the past when discussing acquisitions. Phil Spencer said this as well during his FTC testimony.
Topher is right.

Acquisitions are a balance sheet thing, not an income statement factor (revenue to profit).

If it was, then if Sony bought an office building for a studio, the cost would be an income statement data point? Nope.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
So basically, Microsoft made more margin and profit as they had less expenses in that timeframe. Sony had a chunk of profits wiped from the purchase of Bungie.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Accountability margin %? Never heard of it. I even googled it and didnt see anything. Must be a term that is the same as another but they just call it different. Kind of weird since you'd think they just call it operating margin.
 
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Celine

Member
Why did the author take net income for Nintendo instead of operating income like for SIE?
Had him considered operating income for Nintendo he could have at least compared directly SIE and Nintendo, as it is even between these two it's a "apples and oranges" comparison (like it is with the Xbox, what does Microsoft consider into what they call "accountability margin"?).
 
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Darsxx82

Member
So basically, Microsoft made more margin and profit as they had less expenses in that timeframe. Sony had a chunk of profits wiped from the purchase of Bungie.
The important thing about the news is not whether XBOX obtains more profits than Sony (which could be in this case due to "extraordinary" expenses by Sony in that period). The news is that XBOX division is profitable and makes profits and does so at a respectable %. Even more so when the installed console base is half.

It is clear that XBOX compensates for the shortcomings of the installed base of consoles with business and day-one games on PC.

PS .No company invests billions in a business if it is not already profitable and shows signs of being a greater opportunity.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Why did the author take net income for Nintendo instead of operating income like for SIE?
In that way SIE and Nintendo could be compared directly otherwise even between those two it's a "apples and oranges" comparison (like it is with the Xbox).
I'm too lazy to verify numbers, but I was thinking the same thing in terms of what level of the income statement are they taking.

However, every company calls their final profit row different. Operating profit/operating income, Net profit/net income etc..... These can all mean the same thing.

Just like one company can call top line sales: Gross sales or Gross Revenue. Same shit.

Id say the trickiest row to understand is Net Sales because there can be different kinds of net sales in a financial statement depending how detailed the company is and how many of these net sales kinds of sub-totals they want. You can have Net Realized Sales, Net Invoiced Sales, Net Sales. Its confusing unless you know exactly what is in each.
 
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DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
The important thing about the news is not whether XBOX obtains more profits than Sony (which could be in this case due to "extraordinary" expenses by Sony in that period). The news is that XBOX division is profitable and makes profits and does so at a respectable %. Even more so when the installed console base is half.

It is clear that XBOX compensates for the shortcomings of the installed base of consoles with business and day-one games on PC.

PS .No company invests billions in a business if it is not already profitable and shows signs of being a greater opportunity.

Yeah, from this initial take and if the data is correct and not skewed. Xbox is profitable and healthy, seeing great growth and is performing well. That should be a great bit of information for all the people here that wanted details on how Xbox and Gamepass was performing. They now have the answer.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
Where does it show the Game Pass breakdown since it only accounts for 10-15%?

If the division is performing this well with half the install base of PS5 i would say it is doing fine. Also, the other key take away seems to be Xbox hardware was making great margins. There were a lot of poeple claiming they were losing a lot of money on hardware and it doesnt look like that is the case at all.
 

Celine

Member
However, every company calls their final profit row different. Operating profit/operating income, Net profit/net income etc..... These can all mean the same thing.
No, operating profit/operating income and net profit/net income are not the same thing.

Anyone else notice Nintendo's operating profit is as big as both competitors combined?
That graph cited Nintendo's net profit actually.

In recent years Nintendo's annual operating profit margins reached a level above 30%.

OBni91h.jpg
 
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Killjoy-NL

Member
Yeah, from this initial take and if the data is correct and not skewed. Xbox is profitable and healthy, seeing great growth and is performing well. That should be a great bit of information for all the people here that wanted details on how Xbox and Gamepass was performing. They now have the answer.
Don't know too much about finances, but we don’t know if all this is meeting MS' targets.

If both GamePass and console sales stagnate, I wonder if MS will deem a single-digit profit worth the investment.
Especially if there will be a chance that things will get worse going into next-gen, when even more people bought into Playstation's eco-system and are even less likely to make a switch.

This was talked about by Spencer in that interview a while ago.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
If the division is performing this well with half the install base of PS5 i would say it is doing fine. Also, the other key take away seems to be Xbox hardware was making great margins. There were a lot of poeple claiming they were losing a lot of money on hardware and it doesnt look like that is the case at all.
MS themselves said they were losing a lot of money on hardware. The reason you don't see it impact, is because they are not moving as much units as the competition. The competition is outselling them 2 to 1 at this point, thus it impacts profits more.

Both companies make a lot off the MTX and store spend.
 
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jm89

Member
If the division is performing this well with half the install base of PS5 i would say it is doing fine. Also, the other key take away seems to be Xbox hardware was making great margins. There were a lot of poeple claiming they were losing a lot of money on hardware and it doesnt look like that is the case at all.
Alot of people?

You mean phil spencer

 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Do you really think "accountability margin" is the same thing as profit? There is no profit on here.
They are different. But go hand in hand in a way.

Profit is dollars based. Margin is a %.

If you got positive profit, youll get positive margin. And vice versa.

But margin can also mean a dollar value in a different context. But usually margin means a %. But a different way to use the word margin is let's Walmart sells a bag of Oreos for $2.50. It cost them $1.50. It can also be stated their margin is $1.00. It can get confusing sometimes. So at work I will usually label my fields Margin $ and Margin % (or Profit $ and Profit %) so any viewers dont get mixed up.
 
They are different. But go hand in hand in a way.

Profit is dollars based. Margin is a %.

If you got positive profit, youll get positive margin. And vice versa.

But margin can also mean a dollar value in a different context. But usually margin means a %. But a different way to use the word margin is let's Walmart sells a bag of Oreos for $2.50. It cost them $1.50. It can also be stated their margin is $1.00. It can get confusing sometimes. So at work I will usually label my fields Margin $ and Margin % (or Profit $ and Profit %) so any viewers dont get mixed up.
A bar graph with different metrics is garbage from the start. It's crazy. It's basically different X/Y coordinate metrics, but thrown on one graph to push some narrative.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
No, operating profit/operating income and net profit/net income are not the same thing.


That graph cited Nintendo's net profit actually.

In recent years Nintendo's annual operating profit margins reached a level above 30%.

OBni91h.jpg
I mean operating profit/income can be the same. And Net profit/income can be the same.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
But I was told gamepass was throwing money into an incinerator
It's pretty clear - Gamepass is a money sink that is massively subsidized by MS and is unsustainable but is also making money. MS is subsidizing each subscriber and also they are ripping off the subscribers by over charging them.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I looked into this further. The income statement does include "expenses associated with acquisitions" but not really the acquisition itself. So that would be whatever is required to get the deal done. I'm guessing a shit-ton of lawyer fees and perhaps the employee retention as well, not sure about that one though.

SEp0Lc4.png
Probably. Ya.

Also, an income statement can be affected by write downs. You see it all the time in tech companies where a lot of their assets are under Goodwill, which is a shady metric representing shit like brand value and overpaying for buying a company and any other weird stuff. So if anyone out there wants to skim some balance sheets and sees "Hey, that company has tons of assets and little liabilities so it must be kicking ass", make sure to check for the goodwill row. You want it as small as possible and as high cash, cash equivalents, short term investments, receivables as possible instead. You'll see a lot of goodwill in sketchy companies especially tech and biotech.

At some point, the company re-evaluates this stuff and if it looks like a new acquisition is shit and overvalued, then you get a big write down expense.
 
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Topher

Gold Member
If the division is performing this well with half the install base of PS5 i would say it is doing fine. Also, the other key take away seems to be Xbox hardware was making great margins. There were a lot of poeple claiming they were losing a lot of money on hardware and it doesnt look like that is the case at all.

How are you determining Xbox hardware is making a profit based on any of this? That is completely at odds from what Phil Spencer said last year.

 
So basically, Microsoft made more margin and profit as they had less expenses in that timeframe. Sony had a chunk of profits wiped from the purchase of Bungie.
Acquiring a company is not an expense that affects profits. It's a shift in assets from cash to what was purchased (Bungie in this example).
 

Riky

$MSFT
If the division is performing this well with half the install base of PS5 i would say it is doing fine. Also, the other key take away seems to be Xbox hardware was making great margins. There were a lot of poeple claiming they were losing a lot of money on hardware and it doesnt look like that is the case at all.

It shows Spencer was telling the truth when he said on record they were a profitable division inside Microsoft.
 
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Riky

$MSFT
And the small text at the top clearly says they are using "accountability margin" for Xbox.
True, I was an accountant for over 15 years and I've never heard of that term. I can only presume it's an internal term for divisions before full accounts are produced. That's the only way it makes sense to me.
 
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