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Will ML be a differentiator between the consoles?

Craig of War

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DirectML short for Direct Machine Learning is AMD equivalent answer to Nvidia's DLSS short for Deep Learning Super Sampling, Enabling higher performance levels by using machine learning to upscale images to higher resolutions without visual downgrades.
AMD has an answer to Nvidia's DLSS, and that answer is DirectML-powered Super Resolution. AMD plans to utilise Machine Learning to improve the visual quality of games, & AMD's solution will have the backing of Microsoft.

Microsoft confirmed that both of their next-generation consoles would support Machine learning for games with DirectML. Through their collaboration with AMD when creating their new consoles.
A component of Microsoft's DirectX feature set DirectML isn't a Radeon-only technology, and its applications extend far beyond Super Resolution functions. Over the coming years, future PC and Xbox games will bring Machine Learning into games in several new and innovative ways, impacting all gamers with supported hardware.

Microsoft has already showcased the potential of machine learning in gaming applications, with the image below showcasing what happens when Machine Learning is used to upscale an image to four times its original resolution (basically from 1080p to 4K) to generate a sharper final image with reduced aliasing. The image below is a comparison between ML Super Sampling and bilinear upsampling.

PS5 is confirmed to not use DirectX feature so even though AMD made their CPU and GPU for the PS5 it looks like PS5 will not have DirectML
so will Sony come up with alternative method to compensate for not having this feature cause Machine Learning is the future of gaming.
While DirectML hasn't received as much attention as DirectX raytracing, you can be sure that developers are looking at the new API closely. As screen manufacturers are starting to push beyond 4K, AI upscaling technologies like Machine Learning will continue to increase in popularity. 4K gaming is already a challenge for modern gaming hardware, and 8K is going to prove to be even more problematic for game makers and hardware vendors.
Technologies like DirectML will become vital for future games, both on PC and on consoles. The application of machine learning will allow developers to deliver higher levels of graphical fidelity without the insane hardware costs of traditional computational methods.
 
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Craig of War

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Yes

Your sources for Ps5 does not have ML is you.

Supersampling by AMD is open source not Dx12 special, so wrong again

Do some proper research before doing a troll thread please.
My source is AMD DirectML is using DirectX feature which the PS5 does not use since it is Microsoft technology did you even read the posting now show me where it shows that PS5 have AMD DirectML?
 

reksveks

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So as far as I know it,

It can support ML algorithms however it might be at the expense of the gpu's capacity. This doesn't seem to be the case for xbox based on their wording so far. The other thing that I have heard is that the inbuilt int4/8 support for the xsx means that it's hardware is theoretical twice as much more useful for running ml algorithms than the ps5.
 

Craig of War

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Most likely not, this is where that "full RDNA 2" stuff comes into play. David Cage of all people is the first one to directly speak on it.

Yes wile Ray Tracing might be getting all the headline lately, Machine Learning is really the future of gaming so the console with the better Machine Learning capability will be more future proof.
 

cyber69

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Yes wile Ray Tracing might be getting all the headline lately, Machine Learning is really the future of gaming so the console with the better Machine Learning capability will be more future proof.

Future proof is a pointless ideology when you think about technology. There is always going to be something better.
 
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geordiemp

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My source is AMD DirectML is using DirectX feature which the PS5 does not use since it is Microsoft technology did you even read the posting now show me where it shows that PS5 have AMD DirectML?

No


Usual poster mistake, just because Microsoft talks about its api interface for dx12, you get confused.
 
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3liteDragon

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DirectML short for Direct Machine Learning is AMD equivalent answer to Nvidia's DLSS short for Deep Learning Super Sampling, Enabling higher performance levels by using machine learning to upscale images to higher resolutions without visual downgrades.
AMD has an answer to Nvidia's DLSS, and that answer is DirectML-powered Super Resolution. AMD plans to utilise Machine Learning to improve the visual quality of games, & AMD's solution will have the backing of Microsoft.

Microsoft confirmed that both of their next-generation consoles would support Machine learning for games with DirectML. Through their collaboration with AMD when creating their new consoles.
A component of Microsoft's DirectX feature set DirectML isn't a Radeon-only technology, and its applications extend far beyond Super Resolution functions. Over the coming years, future PC and Xbox games will bring Machine Learning into games in several new and innovative ways, impacting all gamers with supported hardware.

Microsoft has already showcased the potential of machine learning in gaming applications, with the image below showcasing what happens when Machine Learning is used to upscale an image to four times its original resolution (basically from 1080p to 4K) to generate a sharper final image with reduced aliasing. The image below is a comparison between ML Super Sampling and bilinear upsampling.

PS5 is confirmed to not use DirectX feature so even though AMD made their CPU and GPU for the PS5 it looks like PS5 will not have DirectML
so will Sony come up with alternative method to compensate for not having this feature cause Machine Learning is the future of gaming.
While DirectML hasn't received as much attention as DirectX raytracing, you can be sure that developers are looking at the new API closely. As screen manufacturers are starting to push beyond 4K, AI upscaling technologies like Machine Learning will continue to increase in popularity. 4K gaming is already a challenge for modern gaming hardware, and 8K is going to prove to be even more problematic for game makers and hardware vendors.
Technologies like DirectML will become vital for future games, both on PC and on consoles. The application of machine learning will allow developers to deliver higher levels of graphical fidelity without the insane hardware costs of traditional computational methods.
My source is AMD DirectML is using DirectX feature which the PS5 does not use since it is Microsoft technology did you even read the posting now show me where it shows that PS5 have AMD DirectML?
We’ve known this since October 2019.
"I could be really specific and talk about experimenting with ambient occlusion techniques, or the examination of ray-traced shadows," says Laura Miele, chief studio officer for EA. "More generally, we’re seeing the GPU be able to power machine learning for all sorts of really interesting advancements in the gameplay and other tools."
 

Craig of War

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No


Usual poster mistake, just because Microsoft talks about its api interface for dx12, you get confused.
AMD DirectML is using DirectX yes where did it say PS5 will have this feature in the article it said it will be opensource which means Sony can maybe come up with their own solution or pay AMD to do it but it won't be using the DirectX version.
 
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geordiemp

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AMD DirectML is using DirectX yes where did it say PS5 will have this feature in the article it said it will be opensource which means Sony can maybe come up with their own solution or pay AMD to do it but it won't being using the DirectX version.

Open source means what it means.

Where does it say its a microsoft technology, there will be multiple api for windows, Vulcan, Mantle...and Sony

Its quite funny, people read DX12 on a page and get all excited ..

The api work MS advertised was the DX12api for Nvidia DLSS< nobody is using tendsor cores except Nvidia :messenger_beaming: .

Super sampling will not use tensor cores.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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Yea that’s how it works on PS5 and Series X, it runs on the CUs.
Running on the CU's is different than consuming CU's.

Series X has physical hardware in the CU for handling ML workloads which the PlayStation 5 CU does not. While SX CU's will be used for ML workloads they will not be consumed in their entirety for the operation, PS5 has to eat entire CU's to perform the task.
 

3liteDragon

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Running on the CU's is different than consuming CU's.

Series X has physical hardware in the CU for handling ML workloads which the PlayStation 5 CU does not. While SX CU's will be used for ML workloads they will not be consumed in their entirety for the operation, PS5 has to eat entire CU's to perform the task.
Source?
 

Craig of War

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Open source means what it means.

Where does it say its a microsoft tecnology, there will be multiple api for windows, Vulcan, Mantle...and Sony

Its quite funny, people read DX12 on a page and get all excited ..
Direct X is a Microsoft technology for PC Games & their Console and AMD is using Direct X for this mainly so unless PS5 start using DirectX than they will have to come up with something or paid AMD to come up with something cause that how it works.
 

reksveks

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Think it all goes back to the DF initial reveal and their comments there and the following slide



Quote from wccftech

The two examples given are resolution scaling, most certainly a DLSS-like technique, and 'character behavior', which seems to be related to Artificial Intelligence. Microsoft says it spent only a 'very small' area of the die on ML acceleration hardware, while it expects a 3-10x performance improvement from it, just like for ray tracing.
 
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geordiemp

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Direct X is a Microsoft technology for PC Games & their Console and AMD is using Direct X for this mainly so unless PS5 start using DirectX than they will have to come up with something or paid AMD to come up with something cause that how it works.

No thats not how stuff works.
 
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3liteDragon

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Think it all goes back to the DF initial reveal and their comments there and the following slide



Quote from wccftech

The two examples given are resolution scaling, most certainly a DLSS-like technique, and 'character behavior', which seems to be related to Artificial Intelligence. Microsoft says it spent only a 'very small' area of the die on ML acceleration hardware, while it expects a 3-10x performance improvement from it, just like for ray tracing.
We can’t just assume the PS5 doesn’t have it when Sony themselves have barely talked about the APU architecture. We still don’t have a die shot of the APU and all the technical details. I’m hoping the NDA lifts soon, but I think RedGamingTech said we’ll probably know more about PS5 during GDC 2021, when developers talk about it in detail. I think it’s safe to assume Sony has some sort of solution for this.
 
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Concern

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We can’t just assume the PS5 doesn’t have it when Sony themselves have barely talked about the APU architecture. We still don’t have a die shot of the APU and all the technical details. I’m hoping the NDA lifts soon, but I think RedGamingTech said we’ll probably know more about PS5 during GDC 2021, when developers talk about it in detail. I think it’s safe to assume Sony has some sort of solution for this.


RGT took you guys for a ride. I wish we could see the difference in his follower/subscription number from before he became an "insider" till now. Took advantage of people's thirst for info on the consoles.
 

DynamiteCop!

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RGT took you guys for a ride. I wish we could see the difference in his follower/subscription number from before he became an "insider" till now. Took advantage of people's thirst for info on the consoles.
The funny thing is all of the crap he said was always outrageous and not even remotely believable, so how he got some cult following from PlayStation people is beyond me.

After the console ended up not being 13 Teraflops like many had theorized there was a lot of misplaced hope in crazed alternative media outlets I guess.
 
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BeardGawd

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Why is it that EVERY Xbox feature is countered with unsubstantiated "Sony will have this too!" even when SONY themselves haven't claimed as such?

DLSS equivalent: "They're both using AMD of course PS5 will have this too!"

Sampler Feedback Streamimg: "They're both RDNA2 of course PS5 will have this too!"

Variable Rate Shading: "They're both RDNA2 of course PS5 will have this too!"

Multiple game resumes: "Oh that's easy! They both have SSDs of course PS5 will have this too!"

I mean seriously the amount of delusion is worrisome.
 

reksveks

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We can’t just assume the PS5 doesn’t have it when Sony themselves have barely talked about the APU architecture. We still don’t have a die shot of the APU and all the technical details. I’m hoping the NDA lifts soon, but I think RedGamingTech said we’ll probably know more about PS5 during GDC 2021, when developers talk about it in detail. I think it’s safe to assume Sony has some sort of solution for this.

There is definitely an assumption either way but I typically stay pessimistic honestly.

I am more interested in what kind of models each upscaler uses. AMD seems to be going for a global model and Nvidia seems to be leaning game specific. I wonder if there will be a similar difference between Sony and Microsoft.
 

DynamiteCop!

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XSX/XSS has support for packed 4 and 8 bit integer operations in addition to 32 bit and packed 16 bit floating point operations. These help in speeding up the ML inference calculations.

PS5 doesn't seem to have support for this.
What I think this comes down to is this.

Sony engineered their console while RDNA 2 was still in development and not feature complete, and as a result a few things are missing from their hardware feature sets. Given all the talk of Microsoft development kits being out much later it appears they waited until RDNA 2 was feature complete before final engineering of their console.

That's not to say that PS5 is RDNA 1.5 or anything, just that in pursuit of getting things rolling sooner sacrifices had to be made.
 

3liteDragon

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"RDNA 3!"

:messenger_tears_of_joy:
He’s one of the only few legit insiders out there, he got the exact clock speeds for the GPU right before PS5’s specs were revealed, was the only one at the time who also revealed RDNA 2 supports ray-tracing. He first broke the news a week or two before AMD’s RDNA 2 presentation, that the architecture has 128MB of Infinity Cache and the perf-per-watt was actually a bit higher than their 50% target, both of which were right. The guy even knew they would only show the God of War logo for the sequel reveal right before the showcase.

These are just a few examples, he has a solid track record so far unlike other insiders. Regarding RDNA 3, the only time he even mentions it for PS5 is when he’s talking about the custom Geometry Engine. He’s repeatedly said in multiple videos now that the console’s custom GE has better geometry handling than PC RDNA 2 which is why they don’t support AMD’s version of VRS because it’s all encompassed in the GE, and that AMD was considering using it for RDNA 3 (just like they did with the PS4’s ACEs). Could he be wrong? For sure, but given his track record so far and how he’s putting his reputation on the line, I’m inclined to believe him. If he’s wrong, shit’s gonna massively backfire for him, so we’ll see how everything pans out and see if RGT is right.
 

Black_Stride

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OK than explain how it works to me since im pretty sure that exactly how it works.

You are mixing up alot of different buzzwords.

DirectML is Microsoft technology for all Direct Machine Learning.
SuperResolution is just one way of using Machine Learning to do AI enhanced upscaling

You could use DirectML to do any number of AI enhanced things.

Sony could have an ML capable architecture and use some variant of SuperResolution as well. Nothing stops them from having an AI upscaler assuming the have ML capabilities.
We dont know if they are and at this point we also dont know if Microsoft is going to implement ML Super Resolution.

Its all up in the air right now.

The real question would be is it even worth it?
Yes DLSS is like magic, but thats because DLSS steals very very little resource from actually rendering the game, there is dedicated hardware for AI work in RTX cards, tis why it doesnt work on GTX cards even when they can do DXR.
If you are doing Machine Learning on the CUs you are taking some rendering power away from the actual game.....the trade off would be alot more stark than DLSS and the question would be is it worth it?

Right now I dont really see how it could be viable on consoles lest they actually have dedicated hardware to do it and not steal too much actual rendering grunt from the game.
Only time will tell but I dont think DirectML SuperResolution will be anywhere near the size of DLSS......which is already pretty damn small.
 

DynamiteCop!

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He’s one of the only few legit insiders out there, he got the exact clock speeds for the GPU right before PS5’s specs were revealed, was the only one at the time who also revealed RDNA 2 supports ray-tracing. He first broke the news a week or two before AMD’s RDNA 2 presentation, that the architecture has 128MB of Infinity Cache and the perf-per-watt was actually a bit higher than their 50% target, both of which were right. The guy even knew they would only show the God of War logo for the sequel reveal right before the showcase.

These are just a few examples, he has a solid track record so far unlike other insiders. Regarding RDNA 3, the only time he even mentions it for PS5 is when he’s talking about the custom Geometry Engine. He’s repeatedly said in multiple videos now that the console’s custom GE has better geometry handling than PC RDNA 2 which is why they don’t support AMD’s version of VRS because it’s all encompassed in the GE, and that AMD was considering using it for RDNA 3 (just like they did with the PS4’s ACEs). Could he be wrong? For sure, but given his track record so far and how he’s putting his reputation on the line, I’m inclined to believe him. If he’s wrong, shit’s gonna massively backfire for him, so we’ll see how everything pans out and see if RGT is right.
Guy gets information 5 minutes before the rest of the world and knows of common sense realities, stop the presses!

 

Panajev2001a

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At the cost of consuming CU's themselves, big difference.

Same for XSX/XSS... the CU’s can process wider vectors when they switch to 8 bit or 4 bit ops... remember the rapid packed math / FP16 you mocked when it was only on PS4 Pro? Back with a vengeance mate now able to do 4 bit and 8 bit ops at respectively 8x and 4x the throughput of 32 bit ones instead of just 16 bit ones at 2x the throughput.

This is an optional CU configuration that was added for RDNA1 btw...
 

longdi

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I cant believe Sony dropped ML for PS5 gpu. Imo the whole cloud computing and ML can get bigly next gen.
I wonder how much power is possible with xCloud server sending AI data to SX/SS to do image reconstruction and physics from ML!
 

reksveks

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Only time will tell but I dont think DirectML SuperResolution will be anywhere near the size of DLSS......which is already pretty damn small.

This is where I was wondering what the possible differences would be, Super Resolution seems to be a global model and therefore would possibly be applied across all games ( for better or worse) unlike DLSS. I think that as all things, you would want a game specific model and then a fall-back option. That's what I hope Microsoft, Nvidia and AMD end up at.

Another question is would Microsoft been more capable at producing '8k reference images'?
 
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Panajev2001a

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What I think this comes down to is this.

Sony engineered their console while RDNA 2 was still in development and not feature complete, and as a result a few things are missing from their hardware feature sets. Given all the talk of Microsoft development kits being out much later it appears they waited until RDNA 2 was feature complete before final engineering of their console.

That's not to say that PS5 is RDNA 1.5 or anything, just that in pursuit of getting things rolling sooner sacrifices had to be made.

4/8 bit RPM is an RDNA1 feature btw, it just seems to be added to all RDNA2 cards now and the XSX/XSS with no confirmation for or against about PS5.