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[RareFantasy64]

I feel like when Sega went third-party, along with the disappointment Sega fans felt there was a ton of excitement and the early years of third-party Sega were pretty strong.

With the PS2/GCN/XBox gen, we saw enhanced ports of some Dreamcast gems that deserved more people playing them (Phantasy Star Online, Skies of Arcadia, the Sonic Adventure twins, Shenmue 2) but also some great original content; Panzer Dragoon Orta, Shinobi, the Monkey Ball series (or at least in the beginning it seemed the first few entries were great), Jet Set Radio Future and the beloved Gamecube F-Zero game. Billy Hatcher seemed like it was alright

But what happened with the PS3/Xbox360/Wii gen and beyond that? I literally don't know much of what they have done since the PS2/Xbox/GC gen. The Wii got that so-so NiGHTS game. One of the best games I've played in the past 5 years is Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing Transformed. So there is that.


What does Sega do anymore? Do they just make Sonic games?

What happened to the ambition seen in Sega's Dreamcast titles and their early third-party efforts?

 

[Pudge]

They make Total War and own Atlus now.

They also make a lot of digital stuff that doesn't get a lot of play. They're definitely a smaller operation than they were in the PS2 era, as it just didn't make as much sense to keep all their studios open once they didn't have a console to support.

 

[Mr. Patch]

Money happened probably

 

[Shadoken]

Isn't Sega a PC publisher ? They make console games too ?

 

[TimmiT]

Aside from Sonic, they still make new Yakuza, Hatsune Miku, Puyo Puyo, and Valkyria games. Also PSO2. They don't really make much original stuff anymore outside of mobile though.

If you like classic Sega style games, you should play the Yakuza series as that's probably the most reminiscent of their old style.

EDIT: Oh, and they own Atlus, and Sega Europe is pretty big when it comes to PC games.

 

[RareFantasy64]

I forgot about them owning Atlus now and doing the Yakuza games.

 

[Takao]

It's almost like they were hemorrhaging cash for years and had a decent chunk of their notable talent leave.

 

[JordanN]

To be fair, it's not just SEGA.

Games just cost far too much to make for little reward, unless you're a mobile or free to play developer.

 

[EhoaVash]

well sega's in house development is now just Yakuza which seems to release yearly in japan is doing well there, and sonic who has stumbled and fall and yeah self explanatory.

Their other series are either long dead or sega still makes money from them from old Pachinko/arcades in japan.

but yeah their properties are long dead buried.

 

[Platy]

The same with everyone.

Games have becoming too expensive in the HD 1080p 4k HDR era which means having loss hurts way more, so being conservative, making sequels and using famous ips are something that need to be used to try to grantee sucess

...and Fighters Megamix 2 even fitting with everything I said because god hates me

 

[EmiPrime]

Their fanbase was too thinly spread across XB/PS2/GC and their games didn't sell well enough. Also arcades became extinct in most parts of the world. Studios got merged, lots of talent left.

Now they mostly just make Yakuza, Sonic and Hatsune Miku games.

 

[entremet]

This is what happens when you don't have console sales and licensing to bring in revenue to take creative risks.

A lot of the PS2/Xbox/GCN output was ported Dreamcast projects as well.

This is why every Nintendo should go 3rd party argument is extremely myopic--unless all you want is Mario, Smash, Pokemon, and Zelda.

Luckily Nintendo seems to be diversifying their revenue these days.

 

[BigDes]

They own the Football Manager IP

They don't need to do anything else to make any money

 

[Elfforkusu]

$$$

The production of classic Sega (what's left now isn't the same company, don't kid yourself) was only possible because they were a 1st party. After they went 3rd party, they showed exactly what happens when you spend like a 1st party without the platform holder payoff:

Bankruptcy!

 

[TheSpoiler]

Money happened probably

This.

But the good news is that Sega is running a tight ship nowadays so their financial situation is much, much better. And Yakuza, Sonic Mania, a new Sonic (hopefully that'll be good), VC spinoff game, 7th Dragon III Code, Puyo Puyo Chronicle, and a bunch of published projects are on the way.

The issue is most of the Sega IPs listed are ones not enough people give a fuck about, so doing smaller, digital titles like Mania is probably where they are gonna put them.

 

[RareFantasy64]

The same with everyone.

Games have becoming too expensive in the HD 1080p 4k HDR era which means having loss hurts way more, so being conservative, making sequels and using famous ips are something that need to be used to try to grantee sucess

...and Fighters Megamix 2 even fitting with everything I said because god hates me

This drives me nuts and makes me sick. I miss the smaller-scaled 3D game era. Everything is always some big-to-do where games are designed around what sales a certain metacritic score will give them

 

[DocSeuss]

Sega is a PC game developer at this point in time. Almost all of their income comes from owning Relic and Creative Assembly, and they just purchased Amplitude back in August or so? I believe they make far more money on the PC than... just about anyone else? Their only serious competition at this point is Blizzard. 2K could make an aggressive push here; they own Firaxis, whose games are always best (and great sellers) on PC.

Here's a writeup on that.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/23/sega-amplitude-pc-publisher/

They own Atlus, but Atlus doesn't make a LOT of money for them (compared to Total War and Football Manager), and the rest of their money comes from Pachinko. People just don't buy Sega's console games that much. Their PC games do better.

 

[VLQ]

You should check Binary Domain and Valkyria Chronicles

 

[kunonabi]

They really only care about the PC market now. Yakuza, Miku, Sonic, and a few other odds and ends get thrown to console/portable owners every now and then but that's really it. Thankfully, they're letting Atlus be Atlus so there's that.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

What happened to the ambition seen in Sega's Dreamcast titles and their early third-party efforts?

Ambition is for when you're trying really hard to justify not only a $40 purchase of your game, but a $200 purchase of your company's game console. When all you have to do is just sell a game, there's a lot less impetus to push yourself and you quickly fall in to the same trap every other third party developer does. You chase what's popular.

And in Sega's case, the quality just wasn't there on a lot of it. I remember shit like that PS2 Altered Beast reboot and Golden Axe: Beast Rider. Sonic Team spent nearly a decade trying to walk back the sins of Phantasy Star Universe. Which, really, was a continuation of what was starting to happen on the Dreamcast already, if you want to be cynical.

It became pretty obvious that Sega was not a quality brand name anymore and the sales began to dry up as a result.

Sega's early third party efforts were mostly leftover Dreamcast games (Gun Valkyrie, JSRF, Panzer Dragoon Orta, etc.) that had to be moved to other platforms when Sega went agnostic. When those ran out, that's when the "real" third party Sega was born.

 

[@MUWANdo]

Sega's multi-game publishing deal with Platinum was their attempt to carve a niche with mid-tier original games last gen and it didn't pay off.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Will I ever see this franchise again? One can only hope.

 

[RareFantasy64]

Their fanbase was too thinly spread across XB/PS2/GC and their games didn't sell well enough. Also arcades became extinct in most parts of the world. Studios got merged, lots of talent left.

Now they mostly just make Yakuza, Sonic and Hatsune Miku games.

In response to MS buying Rare, Sega should have formed a strong second-party relationship with Nintendo. Keep the Sega fans support unified and have them flock to Nintendo consoles for that Sega goodness. Have the Sega titles offset time inbetween Nintendo titles. Why didn't this happen? Can it happen now? I feel like I'm writing videogame fan fiction

You should check Binary Domain and Valkyria Chronicles

Does Valkyria come from them owning Atlus now? I will give those games a look

Sega is a PC game developer at this point in time. Almost all of their income comes from owning Relic and Creative Assembly, and they just purchased Amplitude back in August or so? I believe they make far more money on the PC than... just about anyone else? Their only serious competition at this point is Blizzard. 2K could make an aggressive push here; they own Firaxis, whose games are always best (and great sellers) on PC.

Here's a writeup on that.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/23/sega-amplitude-pc-publisher/

They own Atlus, but Atlus doesn't make a LOT of money for them (compared to Total War and Football Manager), and the rest of their money comes from Pachinko. People just don't buy Sega's console games that much. Their PC games do better.

I will give that writeup a read

Will I ever see this franchise again? One can only hope.

That game was so dope

 

[DocSeuss]

In response to MS buying Rare, Sega should have formed a strong second-party relationship with Nintendo. Keep the Sega fans support unified and have them flock to Nintendo consoles for that Sega goodness. Have the Sega titles offset time inbetween Nintendo titles. Why didn't this happen? Can it happen now? I feel like I'm writing videogame fan fiction

Sega's connection with Microsoft is really tight. Dreamcast was basically Xbox 0.5, and Xbox had a ton of Sega exclusives on it. Now Sega develops its biggest games for Windows.

Why would Sega EVER go Nintendo? At this point, it makes more sense for them to start putting Persona and Yakuza on Steam.

 

[EmiPrime]

In response to MS buying Rare, Sega should have formed a strong second-party relationship with Nintendo. Keep the Sega fans support unified and have them flock to Nintendo consoles for that Sega goodness. Have the Sega titles offset time inbetween Nintendo titles. Why didn't this happen? Can it happen now? I feel like I'm writing videogame fan fiction

They should have gone all in on the PS2 if anything.

 

[RareFantasy64]

Sega's connection with Microsoft is really tight. Dreamcast was basically Xbox 0.5, and Xbox had a ton of Sega exclusives on it. Now Sega develops its biggest games for Windows.

Why would Sega EVER go Nintendo? At this point, it makes more sense for them to start putting Persona and Yakuza on Steam.

True. I guess I was just thinking because of how well Sonic/Nintendo collaborations seem to work out but the points you bring up with Microsoft show them being a better fit

Edit: Hold the phone, your post made me realize that Atlus makes Persona and Sega owns Atlus. I have more reason to support the Persona series now

Sega's multi-game publishing deal with Platinum was their attempt to carve a niche with mid-tier original games last gen and it didn't pay off.

See, beyond the Sonic and Sega All-stars racing game and the Sonic games of that gen, I had no idea what they did exactly during that gen. That makes me sad that didn't work out for them

 

[Madness]

You are seeing what happens when you do not have profitable hardware to subsidize software on a massive scale. It happens to everyone who leaves the hardware race.

 

[VLQ]

Does Valkyria come from them owning Atlus now? I will give those games a look

No, it's from Sega themselves, mostly from Sakura Wars and Skies of Arcadia folks, IIRC

 

[DocSeuss]

See, beyond the Sonic and Sega All-stars racing game and the Sonic games of that gen, I had no idea what they did exactly during that gen. That makes me sad that didn't work out for them

They published a ton of niche stuff like Valkyria Chronicles and Platinum's Madworld, Infinite Space, Bayonetta, Vanquish, and Anarchy Reigns, which were all poor sellers and mostly not that great overall, so that partnership ended. Platinum's super niche to begin with, which hasn't helped them.

They were ALSO pushing Alien, but canceled Obsidian's Aliens RPG, were obviously unhappy with Gearbox's work/nonwork on Colonial Marines, and I don't think Alien: Isolation sold as well as they would have liked, which is unfortunate, because that game's an actual masterpiece.

Where they found the most success was with Creative Assembly's Total War, which always sells millions, and when THQ died, they bought Relic, which is the only surviving RTS studio of the big four (Blizzard, Ensemble, Relic, Westwood) that still makes RTSes (Blizzard seems done on the RTS front). Football Manager has always been huge (it's almost always one of the top 10 played games on Steam at any given moment). So they're bolsting their strategy-on-PC segment.

 

[TimmiT]

Sega is a PC game developer at this point in time. Almost all of their income comes from owning Relic and Creative Assembly, and they just purchased Amplitude back in August or so? I believe they make far more money on the PC than... just about anyone else? Their only serious competition at this point is Blizzard. 2K could make an aggressive push here; they own Firaxis, whose games are always best (and great sellers) on PC.

Here's a writeup on that.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/23/sega-amplitude-pc-publisher/

They own Atlus, but Atlus doesn't make a LOT of money for them (compared to Total War and Football Manager), and the rest of their money comes from Pachinko. People just don't buy Sega's console games that much. Their PC games do better.

Specifically, Sega Europe is a PC game developer at this point, and really they're not that involved with what Sega Japan and America are up to these days.

Sega Japan primarily makes console/handheld and mobile games, and Sega America primarily focuses on localisation and Sonic stuff. Sega Europe meanwhile is moving away from publishing Sega Japan/America's games, so much so that Sega America recently started collaborating with Deep Silver to publish their games in Europe.

 

[DocSeuss]

Specifically, Sega Europe is a PC game developer at this point, and really they're not that involved with what Sega Japan and America are up to these days.

Sega Japan primarily makes console/handheld and mobile games, and Sega America primarily focuses on localisation and Sonic stuff. Sega Europe meanwhile is moving away from publishing Sega Japan/America's games, so much so that Sega America recently started collaborating with Deep Silver to publish their games in Europe.

Worth noting that Sega Europe is also making the majority of Sega's money.

 

[MacTag]

Worth noting that Sega Europe is also making the majority of Sega's money.

Are they? I thought Japan was banking on mobile?

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

well sega's in house development is now just Yakuza which seems to release yearly in japan is doing well there, and sonic who has stumbled and fall and yeah self explanatory.

Their other series are either long dead or sega still makes money from them from old Pachinko/arcades in japan.

but yeah their properties are long dead buried.

The new Valkyria Chronicles is literally out next month.

They also do gangbusters in Japan with mobile development, Chain Chronicle is huge.

 

[Inuhanyou]

they dont even generally make their own games anymore, they outsource their IP to other development houses and such

 

[Hero of Legend]

Sammy buying Sega did it I think, they started going downhill then.

They put out great stuff on occasion, but nowhere NEAR the quantity they did during the DC/GC/PS2/XB-era.

 

[DOWN]

Alien Isolation

 

[RareFantasy64]

No, it's from Sega themselves, mostly from Sakura Wars and Skies of Arcadia folks, IIRC

I will totally check this out then

They published a ton of niche stuff like Valkyria Chronicles and Platinum's Madworld, Infinite Space, Bayonetta, Vanquish, and Anarchy Reigns, which were all poor sellers and mostly not that great overall, so that partnership ended. Platinum's super niche to begin with, which hasn't helped them.

They were ALSO pushing Alien, but canceled Obsidian's Aliens RPG, were obviously unhappy with Gearbox's work/nonwork on Colonial Marines, and I don't think Alien: Isolation sold as well as they would have liked, which is unfortunate, because that game's an actual masterpiece.

Where they found the most success was with Creative Assembly's Total War, which always sells millions, and when THQ died, they bought Relic, which is the only surviving RTS studio of the big four (Blizzard, Ensemble, Relic, Westwood) that still makes RTSes (Blizzard seems done on the RTS front). Football Manager has always been huge (it's almost always one of the top 10 played games on Steam at any given moment). So they're bolsting their strategy-on-PC segment.

This post is really informative, thanks

 

[Nyoro SF]

Sega's Japan-produced and America-produced third party console games didn't really sell well on average. As the generation progressed and game quality became tougher and tougher to achieve on the highly competitive console market they bowed out. 2012 was the defining year when they slashed almost all of their current projects and consolidated their workforce in regards to console games.

On PC Sega is doing fine as a third party effort (I suppose everyone publishing on PC is third party lol) but that's on the virtue of their purchased studios. If you're hoping for "old console Sega" from those guys in Europe, that's just not going to happen. You could say they adapted well in establishing a strong niche on PC where they can deliver top quality strategy and management games.

To put it in the bluntest terms possible Sega's third party didn't sell well enough, and they've rallied around the few console titles like Miku which do.

 

[jay]

Sammy happened.

 

[RareFantasy64]

Sega's Japan-produced and America-produced third party console games didn't really sell well on average. As the generation progressed and game quality became tougher and tougher to achieve on the highly competitive console market they bowed out. 2012 was the defining year when they slashed almost all of their current projects and consolidated their workforce in regards to console games.

On PC Sega is doing fine as a third party effort (I suppose everyone publishing on PC is third party lol) but that's on the virtue of their purchased studios. If you're hoping for "old console Sega" from those guys in Europe, that's just not going to happen. You could say they adapted well in establishing a strong niche on PC where they can deliver top quality strategy and management games.

To put it in the bluntest terms possible Sega's third party didn't sell well enough, and they've rallied around the few console titles like Miku which do.

I respect this and I want to make more of an effort supporting Sega published games

Ambition is for when you're trying really hard to justify not only a $40 purchase of your game, but a $200 purchase of your company's game console. When all you have to do is just sell a game, there's a lot less impetus to push yourself and you quickly fall in to the same trap every other third party developer does. You chase what's popular.

And in Sega's case, the quality just wasn't there on a lot of it. I remember shit like that PS2 Altered Beast reboot and Golden Axe: Beast Rider. Sonic Team spent nearly a decade trying to walk back the sins of Phantasy Star Universe. Which, really, was a continuation of what was starting to happen on the Dreamcast already, if you want to be cynical.

It became pretty obvious that Sega was not a quality brand name anymore and the sales began to dry up as a result.

Sega's early third party efforts were mostly leftover Dreamcast games (Gun Valkyrie, JSRF, Panzer Dragoon Orta, etc.) that had to be moved to other platforms when Sega went agnostic. When those ran out, that's when the "real" third party Sega was born.

I hope we see a Sega renaissance. That is very interesting that their early 3rd party work were games intended for DC. It makes perfect sense

 

[Tohsaka]

Yakuza series is still really good, just wish they would localize them in a timely manner.

 

[SatoAilDarko]

This is why every Nintendo should go 3rd party argument is extremely myopic--unless all you want is Mario, Smash, Pokemon, and Zelda.

My thoughts.

The most interesting retail games that do weird stuff are almost always from one of the three first-parties because they're willing to fund it.

 

[Nyoro SF]

I respect this and I want to make more of an effort supporting Sega published games

I hope we see a Sega renaissance. That is very interesting that their early 3rd party work were games intended for DC. It makes perfect sense

Keep in mind that the core teams of Sega America and Europe are very small.

In fact I think Sega America largely exists only as a brand, with only chief officers remaining. Everyone else identifies as Atlus or Sonic-branded employees. Sega Europe as a standalone firm is very small. Their E3 presence was extremely sad because they basically threw together a streaming garage kit; not something you would expect from a mega publisher of PC games, but kind of speaks to their thin corporate structure.

Don't expect some grand reckoning or return anytime soon. The current console and PC markets and the current conditions of Sega as a company in America and Europe don't allow it.

 

[RareFantasy64]

This is one of my favorite gaming magazines and one of my favorite periods of gaming. I love you, Sega.

 

[RedSwirl]

Sammy happened.

This is what I was about to say. Somebody else probably has the actual history of it though.

Pre-2004 Sega was pretty much the same Sega that made Dreamcast games. That is to say, Sega Japan had built up all these little studios through the arcade, Saturn, and Dreamcast years that were comfortable teams with a good deal of creative freedom: Hitmaker, AM2, Oveworks, Sonic Team, Amusement Vision, Smilebit, UGA, etc. That's how you got the wide range of creativity that came from Sega during those years in games like Jet Set Radio, Seaman, Rez, and Crazy Taxi. Problem is, none of those games was really mass market.

Money is indeed what happened to Sega, but I believe in 2004 Sammy bought out Sega and re-organized all those teams. A lot of the creative talent left because the teams that let them make what they wanted to make were disrupted. Today, when talking about Sega's original internal development, you've just got Nagoshi's team making Yakuza, Sonic Team, and the remnants of Overworks doing the Valkyria games. AM still does arcade games, and you've got the PC studios Sega acquired.

Edit: Had a thought -- you ever think they'd get CA or Relic to do a Shining Force game?

 

[drotahorror]

I wonder if I should just get Vanquish on PS3 at this point. I have been holding out on a PC version for very long.

 

[Movalpolos]

Will I ever see this franchise again? One can only hope.

Best series, hardest game, also best game. Fuck me, I love this game. The music, the atmosphere and the fucking gameplay. So fucking brutal, it forces you to master the combat.
There will never be another game like this. I'm glad it exists.

That fucking game, along with Nocturne, Breath of Fire and Baroque on PS2... oh goddamnit I NEED remasters of all these games. I STILL own them but I need a good reason to play the all again.

Sorry I got off topic. BUT FUCK YES, give me more Shinobi. I even really like the 3DS one.

 

[Freshmaker]

What happened to the ambition seen in Sega's Dreamcast titles and their early third-party efforts?

A lot of that stemmed from Sega trying to shore up shortfalls in their console libraries by doing it themselves.

So they for example, didn't have Street Fighter 2 or Final Fight. Their answers were Eternal Champions and Streets of Rage.

Now they don't have to take risks like that anymore, so they don't.

This is why I think people jonesing for Nintendo to go third party would ultimately be dissapointed.

I wonder if I should just get Vanquish on PS3 at this point. I have been holding out on a PC version for very long.

It was a PS+ title a while back. Should've swooped then.

 

[GabeTheGrouch76]

As others have said...

Bleeding money for years in the past, which wasn't too good for the previous finances.
Lost popularity as a brand.
Less desire / opportunities to take the risks with their software they could do as a console maker.
Rising game development costs.
Sammy merger.
Closure of studios / exodus of talent.

Agreed with all of these responses, and I'm also going to add one myself--larger reliance over the Sonic series (a fair amount of the above are responsible for this).

Just compare the amount of releases of console Sonic titles over the sixth and seventh generations alone:

Sixth generation:
Adventure 1
Shuffle
Adventure 2
Heroes
Shadow the Hedgehog
Riders

Seventh generation:
Sonic 2006
Secret Rings
Unleashed (PS3/360 version)
Unleashed (Wii/PS2 version)*
Black Knight
Colors (Wii)
Generations (PS3/360/PC)
Sonic 4: Episode I*
Sonic 4: Episode II*
Riders: Zero Gravity
Free Riders

The above doesn't factor the handheld games (Advance/Rush series), re-releases (such as Adventure DX: Director's Cut), compilation titles (Mega Collection), or general crossovers (All-Stars Racing and the Mario & Sonic Olympic series) released during these generations either. And excluding Sonic Shuffle (developed by Hudson Soft), virtually all of the above games in the list are directly or indirectly (Sonic games with the * means the games are Dimps co-productions) produced by chief developer Sonic Team themselves.

Also worth noting that as the number of Sonic productions rose, the original titles by Sonic Team shrunk as well. Sixth generation Sonic Team produced Phantasy Star Online, Chu-Chu Rockett!!, Billy Hatcher, Samba de Amigo. Seventh-generation Sonic Team? All that came out was the NiGHTS sequel Journey of Dreams. There was the PS3 FPS Fifth Phantom Saga game they showcased in 2005 at E3 and TGS, but that was scrapped, with the existing mechanics being reportedly recycled for Silver's psychokinesis gameplay in Sonic 2006. And while Puyo Puyo titles haven't stopped flowing, they are rarely, if ever, released overseas.

It's undeniable that over the years, Sonic has for quite a while become both the first end of SEGA's profit mill (do anything with "Sonic" in it so that they can earn huge money) and the final end (let's gather money so that we can expand our brand via Sonic major releases or to use Sonic as our face for advertisement). It's a complicated situation.

Will I ever see this franchise again? One can only hope.

With that said, the game was sent out with hardly any promotion, and its developer (Griptonite Games) closed up shop shortly after the game was released, so yeah. Can't blame you if you never heard of it.

Speaking of which...

Sega's multi-game publishing deal with Platinum was their attempt to carve a niche with mid-tier original games last gen and it didn't pay off.

It probably would had paid off (better than expected) if Sega had treated the releases of their games better. Platinum Space, Vanquish, and Anarchy Reigns were essentially sent out to be buried. Bayonetta was probably the lone exception, and even then Nintendo had to swoop in to save the sequel when Sega canned it (though in fairness, that event happened around the time Sega posted a significant financial loss during the early 2010s).

 

[-Mutsukki-]

This.

But the good news is that Sega is running a tight ship nowadays so their financial situation is much, much better. And Yakuza, Sonic Mania, a new Sonic (hopefully that'll be good), VC spinoff game, 7th Dragon III Code, Puyo Puyo Chronicle, and a bunch of published projects are on the way.

The issue is most of the Sega IPs listed are ones not enough people give a fuck about, so doing smaller, digital titles like Mania is probably where they are gonna put them.

I give a fuck about Puyo goddam..... but I can't play what I can't have!!