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US Incarceration Rates Exceed those of Jim Crow Era

My personal take on the lede from a large opinion piece on mass incarceration from Jacobin:

How to End Mass Incarceration

Starts with a story of how we've never been like this before:
The United States has not always been the world's leading jailer, the only affluent democracy to make ”incapacitation" its criminal justice system's goal. Once upon a time, it fashioned itself as the very model of what Michel Foucault called ”the disciplinary society." That is, it took an enlightened approach to punishment, progressively tethering it to rehabilitative ideals. Today, it is a carceral state, plain and simple. It posts the highest incarceration rate in the world — as well as the highest violent crime rate among high-income countries.

An American preference for rehabilitative discipline over harsh punishment has deep roots. Resonant with the image of the country as ”a nation of laws," American justice promised to punish lawbreakers only as much as was necessary to straighten them out. The Bill of Rights prohibited torture, and the Quaker reformers who founded early American penitentiaries treated them as utopian experiments in discipline, purgatories where penitents would suffer and introspect until they found salvation.

No doubt time and circumstance created different opinions about how much suffering genuine personal reformation required, but American practices generally aligned with rising standards of decency. As James Q. Whitman notes, Europeans once viewed the US prison system as a model of enlightened practices. Foreign governments sent delegations on tours of American penitentiaries, and Alexis de Tocqueville extolled the mildness of American punishment.

Of course, we can find exceptions. Southern penal systems, racialized after the Civil War under the convict-lease system, didn't even pretend to have rehabilitative aims. They existed to control the black population and supply cheap labor for agriculture and industry. No doubt, too, the spectacles of punishment associated with popular colonial justice — the pillory, the stockade, the scarlet letter — cast long shadows across American history.

But, even in the face of these contradictions, the US criminal justice system seemed to support a grand narrative of progressive history: the arc of history bends toward justice, and the slave driver's lash and the lynch mob's noose disappeared as the nation extended more rights and more freedoms to more people. Reasoned law inexorably overcomes communal violence and brute domination.

Arthur Schlesinger Jr thus distinguishes the true essence of the United States from its various manifestations of racism and intolerance, glossing history as the perpetual struggle of Americans to ”fulfill their deepest values in an enigmatic world."

Indeed, as a result of the legal reforms of the 1960s, the American prison population was shrinking, and the state was developing alternatives to incarceration: kinder, gentler institutions that focused on supervision, reeducation, and rehabilitation. To many observers, the prison system actually seemed to be reforming itself out of existence. Leo Bersani's review of Foucault's Discipline and Punish began with the (now astonishing) sentence ”The era of prisons may be nearly over."

Nothing in Foucault's analysis — or anyone else's, as David Garland has remarked — could have predicted what followed: a sudden punitive turn designed to incapacitate prisoners rather than rehabilitate them. The practice of locking people up for long periods of time became the criminal justice system's organizing principle, and prisons turned into a ”reservation system, a quarantine zone" where ”purportedly dangerous individuals are segregated in the name of public safety." The resulting system of mass incarceration, Garland writes, resembles nothing so much as the Soviet gulag — a string of work camps and prisons strung across a vast country, housing [more than] two million people most of whom are drawn from classes and racial groups that have become politically and economically problematic.... Like the pre-modern sanctions of transportation or banishment, the prison now functions as a form of exile.

At the peak of this mania, one in every ninety-nine adults was behind bars. Since 2008, these numbers have leveled off and even posted modest declines, but the basic contours remain intact. The United States ranks first in imprisonment among significant nations, whether measured in terms of incarceration rates — which remains five to ten times higher than those of other developed democracies — or in terms of the absolute number of people in prison.

Hyper-policing helped make hyper-punishment possible. By the mid-2000s, police were arresting a staggering fourteen million Americans each year, excluding traffic violations — up from a little more than three million in 1960. That is, the annual arrest rate as a percentage of the population nearly tripled, from 1.6 percent in 1960 to 4.5 percent in 2009. Today, almost one-third of the adult population has an arrest record.

At prevailing rates of incarceration, one in every fifteen Americans will serve time in a prison. For men the rate is more than one in nine. For African American men, the expected lifetime rate runs even higher: roughly one in three.

These figures have no precedent in the United States: not under Puritanism, not even under Jim Crow.

Abuse in the prison system:
In this context, structural abuses invariably flourish. Reports from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch catalog various forms of sanctioned and unsanctioned human rights abuses. These include beatings and chokings, extended solitary confinement in maximum security and so-called supermax prisons, the mistreatment of juvenile and mentally ill detainees, and the inhumane use of restraints, electrical devices, and attack dogs.

Modern prisons have become places of irredeemable harm and trauma. J. C. Oleson surveys these dehumanizing warehouse prisons, where guards have overseen systems of sexual slavery or orchestrated gladiator-style fights between inmates.


Sally Mann Romano describes shocking brutality in the Security Housing Unit (SHU) of California's Pelican Bay State Prison, once touted as a model supermax prison:

It was in this unit that Vaughn Dortch, a prisoner with a life-long history of mental problems, was confined after a conviction for grand theft. There, the stark conditions of isolation caused his mental condition to ”dramatically deteriorate," to the point that he ”smeared himself repeatedly with feces and urine." Prison officials took Vaughn to the infirmary to bathe him and asked a medical technician, Irven McMillan, if he ”wanted a part of this bath." McMillan responded that ”he would take some of the ‘brush end,' referring to a hard bristle brush which is wrapped in a towel and used to clean an inmate." McMillan asked a supervisor for help, but she refused. Ultimately, six guards wearing rubber gloves held Vaughn, with his hands cuffed behind his back, in a tub of scalding water. His attorney later estimated the temperature to be about 125 degrees. McMillan proceeded with the bath while one officer pushed down on Vaughn's shoulder and held his arms in place. After about fifteen minutes, when Vaughn was finally allowed to stand, his skin peeled off in sheets, ”hanging in large clumps around his legs." Nurse Barbara Kuroda later testified without rebuttal that she heard a guard say about the black inmate that it ”looks like we're going to have a white boy before this is through... his skin is so dirty and so rotten, it's all fallen off." Vaughn received no anesthetic for more than forty-five minutes, eventually collapsed from weakness, and was taken to the emergency room. There he went into shock and almost died.

How it started:
The punitive turn began in the turmoil of the 1960s, a time of rapidly rising crime rates and urban disorder. In 1968, with US cities in flames and white backlash gaining momentum, congress overwhelmingly passed — and Lyndon Johnson reluctantly signed — the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act. As Jonathan Simon has suggested, the act became something like a blueprint for subsequent crime-control lawmaking.
...
Although the legislation did little to increase criminal penalties, it reversed the logic of earlier Great Society programs; instead of providing direct investment, the act's block grants ceded control to local agencies, often controlled by conservative governors. Most importantly, the act established the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), an independent branch of the Justice Department. Blaming low conviction rates on a lack of cooperation from victims and witnesses, the LEAA launched demonstration projects aimed at recruiting citizens into the war on crime.

Ironically, the Left was helping to prepare the way for a decisive turn to the Right. Leftist activists from the civil rights, black power, and antiwar movements were leveling heavy criticism against the criminal justice system, and rightly so. Patterns of police brutality had been readily discernible triggers of urban unrest and race riots in the late 1960s, and minorities were overrepresented in the prison population (although not as much as today). Summing up New Left critiques, the American Friends Service Committee's 1971 report, Struggle for Justice, blasted the US prison system not only for repressing youth, the poor, and minorities but also for paternalistically emphasizing individual rehabilitation. Rehabilitate the system, not the individual, the report urged — but the point got lost in the rancorous debates that followed. As David Garland carefully shows, the ensuing ”nothing works" consensus among progressive scholars and experts discouraged prison reform — and ultimately lent weight to the arguments of conservatives, whose approach to crime has always been a simple one: Punish the bad man. Put lawbreakers behind bars and keep them there.

In 1974, Robert Martinson's influential article ”What Works?" marked a definitive turning point. Examining rehabilitative penal systems' efficacy, Martinson articulated the emerging consensus — ”nothing works," and rehabilitation was a hopelessly misconceived goal.

In the 90s:
But liberal rationales also helped the punitive turn put down institutional roots. The victims' rights movement had adopted feminist rhetoric around rape and domestic violence. For example, it claimed that survivors are victimized a ”second time" by their unsatisfying experiences with the police and court system. During the same period, mainstream white feminists came to view rape, sexual abuse, and domestic violence through a law-and-order lens and many started demanding harsh criminal penalties. This collusion between conservative victims' rights advocates and white feminists undermined the historic liberal commitment to enlightened humanitarianism and progressive reform, especially as these related to crime and punishment.

In 1994, Democrats aggressively moved to ”take back" the crime issue from Republicans, and a Democratically controlled congress passed the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act. Like the 1968 act, this 1994 legislation pumped a great deal of federal funding into local law enforcement, funding 100,000 new police officers, new prison construction, and new prevention programs in poor neighborhoods. The new legislation also included an assault weapon ban.

Unlike the 1968 act, however, the 1994 version increased penalties for hate crimes, sex crimes, violence against women, and gang-related crimes. It required states to create sex-offender registries and prodded them to adopt ”truth in sentencing" laws that would entail longer prison sentences. It also dramatically expanded the federal death penalty and eliminated support for inmate education programs.

The 1994 act completely reversed Great Society penal welfarism, consolidating the punitive approach, which Democrats, liberals, and some progressive advocacy groups now embraced. Indeed, lawmakers drafted many of the act's sweeping provisions with liberal interest groups in mind.

(Opinion:)
Had the Democratic Party stayed its fundamentally social-democratic course, had it kept with the penal system's reformist program, had the policies of Johnson's Attorney General Ramsey Clark remained in place, and — this is no small matter — had the criminal justice system continued to develop alternatives to incarceration, the United States would not have evolved into a carceral state.

It is of course possible that prison rates would still have risen with the crime rates between the 1970s and the 1990s, but they would not have exploded, and mass incarceration would have remained the stuff of dystopian fiction.

Some thoughts on racial disparities and the race-centric rhetoric of policing and prison reform:
Finally, sociologists, criminologists, and critical race scholars have closely scrutinized the racial disparities in arrest, prosecution, and incarceration rates. Many conclude that mass incarceration constitutes a modern regime of racial domination or a new Jim Crow.

This perspective highlights important facts. While African Americans make up only 13 percent of drug users, they account for more than a third of drug arrestees, more than half of those convicted on drug charges, and 58 percent of those ultimately sent to prison on drug charges. When convicted, a black person can expect to serve almost as much time for a drug offense as a white person would serve for a violent offense.

These statistics demonstrate how race-neutral laws can produce race-biased effects, especially when police, prosecutors, juries, and judges make racialized judgments all along the way. Needless to say, had the mania for incarceration devastated white middle- or even working-class communities as much as it has black lower- and working-class communities, it would have proved politically intolerable very quickly.

But the racial critique consistently downplays the effects of mass incarceration on non-black communities. The incarceration rate for Latinos has also risen, and the confinement and processing of undocumented immigrants has become especially harsh. And although white men are imprisoned at a substantially lower rate than either black or brown men, there are still more white men in prison, in both raw and per capita numbers, than at any time in US history.

In mid-2007, 773 of every 100,000 white males were imprisoned, roughly one-sixth the rate for black males (4,618 per 100,000) but more than three times the average rate of male confinement from the 1920s through 1972. As James Forman Jr argues, the racial critique's focus on African American imprisonment rates expressly discourages the cross-racial coalitions that will be required to dismantle mass incarceration.

And finally, on policing:
We might make a similar argument about the racial critique of abusive policing, which highlights important injustices but fails to provide a comprehensive picture of the whole system. Police do kill more black than white men per capita, a disparity that only increases in the smaller subset of unarmed men killed in encounters with police. But in raw numbers cops kill almost twice as many white men, and non-blacks make up about 74 percent of the people killed by police. We cannot dismiss these numbers as ”collateral damage" from a racialized system that targets black bodies.

Examining the profile of these unarmed men is revelatory. Statistically, an unarmed white man has a slightly smaller chance of being killed by law enforcement than he does of being killed by lightning; an unarmed black man's is a few times more. In either case, these rates are many times higher than in other affluent democracies, where violent crime rates are lower, the citizenry is less armed, and police — if armed at all — are less trigger-happy.

Whether black or white, the victims of police shootings have a lot in common: many were experiencing psychotic episodes — either due to chronic mental illness or drug use — when the police were called. Many had prior arrest records or were otherwise previously known to the police. Whether black, white, or brown, the victims of police shootings are disproportionately sub-proletarian or lower working-class.
 
Extra reading from the same piece - his critique on prison abolition movements:

With evangelical zeal, abolitionists insist that we must choose between abolition and reform, while discounting reform as a viable option. The history of the prison system, they say, is a history of reform — and look where that has gotten us.

I have tried to show here what's wrong with this argument. It is remarkably innocent of history. In fact, the history of reform was interrupted some time around 1973 and what we have had instead for the past five decades is a history of counter-reform. The unconscionable conditions we see today are not inevitable byproducts of the prison; they are the results of the punitive turn.

Abolitionists usually respond to the obvious criticism — ”but every country has prisons" — by citing Angela Davis's polemical work, Are Prisons Obsolete? Slavery, too, was once universal, they point out; it required the abolitionists' utopian vision to put an end to that unjust institution.

But this, too, misstates history. By the time American abolitionism got fully underway in the 1830s, much of Europe and parts of Latin American had already partially or wholly abolished slavery. The Haitian Revolution had dealt the institution a major blow, and slavery was imploding in parts of the Caribbean. A world without slavery was scarcely unthinkable. The same cannot be said of prisons: all signs suggest that the public — and not only in the United States — believes that prisons are legitimate.

Abolitionist arguments usually gesture at restorative justice, imagining that some sorts of community institutions will oversee non-penal forms of restitution. But here, we are very far out on a limb. Such models might more or less work in small-scale, face-to-face indigenous or religious communities. But, in modern cities, it is implausible to think that families, kinship networks, neighborhood organizations, and the like can adjudicate reconciliation in a fair, consistent manner.
In short, abolitionism promises a heaven-on-earth that will never come to pass. What we really need to do is fight for measures that have already proven humane, effective, and consistent with social and criminal justice.

Consider Finland. In the 1950s, it had high crime rates and a punitive penal system with high incarceration rates and terrible prison conditions. In these regards Finland then was much like the United States today. After decades of humanitarian and social-democratic reforms, the country now has less than one-tenth the rate of incarceration as the United States. Its prisons resemble dormitories with high-quality health care, counseling services, and educational opportunities. Not coincidentally, its prison system does not breed anger, resentment, and recidivism.

...
Penalties top out at around twenty years, consistent with the finding that longer sentences have neither a rehabilitative nor a deterring effect. Many Scandinavian prisons have no walls and allow prisoners to leave during the day for jobs or shopping. Bedrooms have windows, not bars. Kitchens and common areas resemble Ikea displays.

We should strive not for pie-in-the-sky imaginings but for working models already achieved in Scandinavian and other social democracies. We should demand dramatically better prison conditions, the release of nonviolent first offenders under other forms of supervision, discretionary parole for violent offenders who provide evidence of rehabilitation, decriminalization of simple drug possession, and a broad revision of sentencing laws. Such demands would attract support from a number of prominent social movements, creating a strong base from which we can begin to build a stronger, universal safety net.

Institutions become ”obsolete" only when more effective and more progressive alternatives become available. The poorhouse disappeared when its functions were replaced by social security, public assistance, health care clinics, and mental and psychiatric hospitals. We see no such emergent institutions on the horizon today that might render prisons a thing of the past. What we see instead are examples of criminal justice systems that have continued reforming, modulating, humanizing, shrinking, and decentralizing the functions of the prison. Creating just such a correctional system, based on genuinely rehabilitative goals consistent with our view of social justice, should be a main task of socialists today.
 
A nice read, and shows the nuance in the issues we've created across the entire political spectrum. Personally, I'd start addressing the problem with Portugal style decriminalization of drugs.
 
A nice read, and shows the nuance in the issues we've created across the entire political spectrum. Personally, I'd start addressing the problem with Portugal style decriminalization of drugs.
There's a bit I didn't quote about how drugs only make up a small percentage of the prison inmate system (15%). I'd quote it here but I want to stay away from copyright infringement. I don't think drugs is the correct starting point because it doesn't require any conversation about violent crimes and policing in general. All the hard work is in violent criminals, long sentencing, etc.

I do think drugs is a good ice-breaker though for convincing people to accept that maybe our prison system isn't perfect, or even axiomatically correct. Getting your foot in the door with something obvious like decriminalization of drugs is great rhetorically.
 
There's a bit I didn't quote about how drugs only make up a small percentage of the prison inmate system (15%). I'd quote it here but I want to stay away from copyright infringement. I don't think drugs is the correct starting point because it doesn't require any conversation about violent crimes and policing in general. All the hard work is in violent criminals, long sentencing, etc.
A 15% reduction is enormous, and that's not even addressing the corresponding reductions in violent and property crime that would accompany decriminalization. It's also politically feasible in a way that could be sold in the US. Work on addressing better prison conditions and perceived "coddling" of violent criminals will unfortunately take much longer.
 
A 15% reduction is enormous, and that's not even addressing the corresponding reductions in violent and property crime that would accompany decriminalization. It's also politically feasible in a way that could be sold in the US. Work on addressing better prison conditions and perceived "coddling" of violent criminals will unfortunately take much longer.
I agree that it would reduce the amount of violent crime, maybe. But the massive scale of our problem is staggering. Here's other developed countries:

p36.jpg


A 15% reduction is depressingly small.
 
Prison abolition NOW
Not very realistic or even helpful, as the article points out:

Abolitionist arguments usually gesture at restorative justice, imagining that some sorts of community institutions will oversee non-penal forms of restitution. But here, we are very far out on a limb. Such models might more or less work in small-scale, face-to-face indigenous or religious communities. But, in modern cities, it is implausible to think that families, kinship networks, neighborhood organizations, and the like can adjudicate reconciliation in a fair, consistent manner.

In short, abolitionism promises a heaven-on-earth that will never come to pass. What we really need to do is fight for measures that have already proven humane, effective, and consistent with social and criminal justice.
 
I agree that it would reduce the amount of violent crime, maybe. But the massive scale of our problem is staggering. Here's other developed countries:

p36.jpg


A 15% reduction is depressingly small.
Not disagreeing at all. Increments is the only way we will get change. As the article points out, we can't magically snap our fingers and suddenly be Scandinavia.
 

Piecake

Member
The most effective way to do this is to get rid of bail.

Instead of have people pay money to not sit in jail, have them come to required check-ins to make sure that they are present and are ready for their trial.

Only stick the people who are actually a danger to society or a flight risk in jail pending trial.

The vast majority of people who are in jail right now are simply waiting trial and are there not because they are dangerous or a flight risk. They are just too poor to get out.

Its really a stupid system.
 

Occam

Member
I think a pretty good first step would be to abolish for-profit prisons. Which should never have existed in the first place.
 
The vast majority of people who are in jail right now are simply waiting trial and are there not because they are dangerous or a flight risk. They are just too poor to get out.
Wait, is this true? Do incarceration figures normally include people who have not yet been convicted?
I think a pretty good first step would be to abolish for-profit prisons. Which should never have existed in the first place.
This is backwards. Private prisons were enlisted to handle the huge increases in prison populations. If we abolished private prisons we'd just be putting the same amount of prisoners in public prisons. I think we should abolish private prisons but that'll happen naturally after we stop incarcerating so many people.
 

FyreWulff

Member
it's such a pissoff because more prisons get built and then it's anything to start stuffing them. Meanwhile you can't get 5$ more for pencils for a school.

This is backwards. Private prisons were enlisted to handle the huge increases in prison populations. If we abolished private prisons we'd just be putting the same amount of prisoners in public prisons. I think we should abolish private prisons but that'll happen naturally after we stop incarcerating so many people.


if states were forced to have a capped bed count locked to population then they'd be more choosy about putting a guy with an expired license into jail for a year
 

Madness

Member
A nice read, and shows the nuance in the issues we've created across the entire political spectrum. Personally, I'd start addressing the problem with Portugal style decriminalization of drugs.

Yep. People who say get rid of jails and prisons ignore how violent a lot of the US prison population is as well. Many are straight up violent or sexual offenders.

Some ways to reduce the prison population is to first decriminalize small amounts of drugs like cannabis and ecstacy/MDMA. Additionally, you want to segue away from prisons being used to house substance abuse offenders or those that are mentally unwell. New mental health facilities, facilities allowing for safe-site injection. Also, you want to look at the private prison industry. The corrections unions are stronger voting blocs than teacher unions these days. They get prisoners trucked in from other states. Americans need to get grips with making everything a crime these days. I was hearing Hawaii is going to start charging people who walk and text. These things cast a wide net that disproportionately affect non-white offenders who are almost always guaranteed jail time. Reduce the amount of guns and gun culture as well. The amount of guns being used in robberies, assaults, is just crazy. And then additionally add more funds for halfway houses, more federal funding for tax cuts for those willing to hire reformed offenders and felons. The teaching of trade skills should be essential in prison, but in a nation where tuition rates are skyhigh, why would they educate ans teach offenders before ordinary citizens.

Crime exists everywhere. But the fact the US is ahead of Russia, Brazil, and many other countries is nuts. I don't know if anything is politically viable at all right now.
 

Piecake

Member
Wait, is this true? Do incarceration figures normally include people who have not yet been convicted?

This number comprises local jails with a nominal capacity of 866,782 inmates occupied at 86.4% (June 6, 2010), state prisons with a nominal capacity of approximately 1,140,500 occupied at approximately 115% (December 31, 2010), and federal prisons with a nominal capacity of 126,863 occupied at 136.0% (December 31, 2010). Of this number, 21.5% are pretrial detainees (December 31, 2010), 8.7% are female prisoners (December 31, 2010), 0.4% are juveniles (June 6, 2009), and 5.9% are foreign prisoners (June 30, 2007).[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

Guess I was being a bit hyperbolic

Last month, Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York unveiled a plan to decrease the population of the Rikers Island jail complex by reducing the backlog of cases in state courts. About 85 percent of those at Rikers haven't been convicted of any offense; they're just awaiting trial, sometimes for as long as hundreds of days.[

This is a national problem. Across the United States, most of the people incarcerated in local jails have not been convicted of a crime but are awaiting trial. And most of those are waiting in jail not because of any specific risk they have been deemed to pose, but because they can't pay their bail.

In other words, we are locking people up for being poor. This is unjust. We should abolish monetary bail outright.

There is also evidence that bail is not necessary to ensure that people show up for trial. In Washington, D.C., a city that makes virtually no use of monetary bail, the vast majority of arrestees who are released pretrial do return to court, and rates of additional crime before trial are low.

Those who spend even a few days in jail can lose their jobs or housing during that time. Single parents can lose custody of their children. By exacerbating the effects of poverty, and by placing people in often traumatizing circumstances, pretrial incarceration may actually lead to more crime.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/09/opinion/too-many-people-in-jail-abolish-bail.html?mcubz=3
 

Heroman

Banned
Wait, is this true? Do incarceration figures normally include people who have not yet been convicted?

This is backwards. Private prisons were enlisted to handle the huge increases in prison populations. If we abolished private prisons we'd just be putting the same amount of prisoners in public prisons. I think we should abolish private prisons but that'll happen naturally after we stop incarcerating so many people.
Eh, private Prison were made because they were thought to be cheaper, which they are not. The Mone spend paying them could be use tpin so many places.
 

FyreWulff

Member
that too, we need to get rid of the monetary bail system. it's definitely used to attack communities. we'll come snatch residents and you have to pay up to get them back, if not lol fuck you now your job and home are sabotaged even when you're 100% innocent
 

Piecake

Member
that too, we need to get rid of the monetary bail system. it's definitely used to attack communities. we'll come snatch residents and you have to pay up to get them back, if not lol fuck you now your job and home are sabotaged even when you're 100% innocent

Yup, getting rid of bail also would get rid of the real problem of people copping to plea bargains just to get out of jail.

Not only would we get rid of like 20% of the prison population by reforming the bail system, but we would also likely reduce the prison population beyond that because people would no longer feel forced (at least in that manner) to cop to a plea.
 

Paz

Member
It's an interesting read and I'm sure this thread will be full of nice comments but in a week there'll be another thread about someone committing rape or murder or something and all the comments will be people decrying how short their sentence is and how they hope they themselves get raped/murdered during their prison stay.

Change has to start with how people view those who do wrong, hopefully one day we see them as human beings who can be rehabilitated.

I'm not American so the prison system here in Australia isn't quite as fucked but it is my sincere hope that the folks who murdered my brother came out of prison better human beings than when they went in.
 
There's a bit I didn't quote about how drugs only make up a small percentage of the prison inmate system (15%). I'd quote it here but I want to stay away from copyright infringement. I don't think drugs is the correct starting point because it doesn't require any conversation about violent crimes and policing in general. All the hard work is in violent criminals, long sentencing, etc.

I do think drugs is a good ice-breaker though for convincing people to accept that maybe our prison system isn't perfect, or even axiomatically correct. Getting your foot in the door with something obvious like decriminalization of drugs is great rhetorically.

15% doesn't really take into account repeat offenders whose initial crime was drug related. If we decriminalized drugs it'd take an absolutely huge chunk out of incarceration rates, much larger than 15%.
 

Heroman

Banned
There's a bit I didn't quote about how drugs only make up a small percentage of the prison inmate system (15%). I'd quote it here but I want to stay away from copyright infringement. I don't think drugs is the correct starting point because it doesn't require any conversation about violent crimes and policing in general. All the hard work is in violent criminals, long sentencing, etc.

I do think drugs is a good ice-breaker though for convincing people to accept that maybe our prison system isn't perfect, or even axiomatically correct. Getting your foot in the door with something obvious like decriminalization of drugs is great rhetorically.
What? Drugs offences are much more than 15%.
 

Eusis

Member
We might make a similar argument about the racial critique of abusive policing, which highlights important injustices but fails to provide a comprehensive picture of the whole system. Police do kill more black than white men per capita, a disparity that only increases in the smaller subset of unarmed men killed in encounters with police. But in raw numbers cops kill almost twice as many white men, and non-blacks make up about 74 percent of the people killed by police. We cannot dismiss these numbers as “collateral damage” from a racialized system that targets black bodies.

Examining the profile of these unarmed men is revelatory. Statistically, an unarmed white man has a slightly smaller chance of being killed by law enforcement than he does of being killed by lightning; an unarmed black man’s is a few times more. In either case, these rates are many times higher than in other affluent democracies, where violent crime rates are lower, the citizenry is less armed, and police — if armed at all — are less trigger-happy.

Whether black or white, the victims of police shootings have a lot in common: many were experiencing psychotic episodes — either due to chronic mental illness or drug use — when the police were called. Many had prior arrest records or were otherwise previously known to the police. Whether black, white, or brown, the victims of police shootings are disproportionately sub-proletarian or lower working-class.
This is why I hate seeing "Blue Lives Matter." At least All Lives Matter is misguided at best, coded racism at worst, but Blue Lives Matter is more "the cops are right fuck you" at best, at worst "the cops are right fuck you ESPECIALLY if you're not a favored group" at worst. Fuck, people who want to go "All Lives" should stop and look at what the core problem here really is and what needs to be done about that, rather than pithily going "well every life matters!"
 
The most effective way to do this is to get rid of bail.

Instead of have people pay money to not sit in jail, have them come to required check-ins to make sure that they are present and are ready for their trial.

Only stick the people who are actually a danger to society or a flight risk in jail pending trial.

The vast majority of people who are in jail right now are simply waiting trial and are there not because they are dangerous or a flight risk. They are just too poor to get out.

Its really a stupid system.

Wasn't New Jersey experimenting with bail reform and now trying to base jail time on an algorithm?

I agree otherwise, the bail system is absurd. It's supposed to be a means to keep people in the city, not in jail.
 

Somnid

Member
It's not going to change until we break our cultural ideals. Americans of the entire political spectrum love punitive justice. We don't really care if it's making an objectively better society as long as people get their comeuppance. We also have a strongly rooted culture of amplified response. While we tend to have a strong dislike for throwing the first punch, the response can often, justifiably, be many times the initial offense, again because the wicked must be punished.
 
* Never mind

As I said a post earlier, you're not entirely wrong. Because 15% only accounts for offenders in there for drugs but not drug offenders who moved on to more criminal activities as a result of being a repeat offender.

Drugs is pretty much a starting point, war on drug data pretty much backs this. Look at incarceration rates when the war on drugs started. Hopefully no one thinks that exponential growth is attributed to solely just people who sold drugs and not all of the criminal activities that surround it as folks washed back into the system repeatedly who felt they had no choice but to continue pursuing criminal activities to make ends meet because they have a record stemming from drugs.

It might only be 15% on paper but in practicality it's much more than that.
 

The pie chart is illuminating
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2017.html

I imagine a lot of the category of property, and public law and order, as well as a good deal of the other categories are at their base, drug and alcohol related. For state prisons. In other words the criminalization of drugs means addicts are not treated and end up in prison one way or another.

Also the private enterprise aspect of state prisons is scary, there is a profit motive to incarcerate.
 

Mortemis

Banned
That was a good read, and it depresses me every time I hear more about the prison and crime system in the US. I'm a pretty pessimistic person on any reform in the US, but things like decriminalization of drugs and bail reform are things we need to fight hard for.
 

NCSOFT

Member
Anything else is a half measure tbh saying otherwise is just limited liberal imagination. Doesn't matter if they think its pie in the sky.

I also believe that prison abolition is going to become a thing once restorative justice is common place and we as a society is more interested in figuring out the root cause of crimes and the social conditions that creates criminals. We're probably several hundred years away from that point. It would not be accomplished over night of course, it will start by countries significantly reducing incarceration rates (Sweden, Netherlands, Finland, Japan are already doing that), leaving prison as a last resort for the most violent criminals.
Eventually, state sanctioned kidnapping (imprisonment) will fall out of favor like death penalty, but we're not even close to that point yet, as of right now most countries are probably increasing the use of prison, and restorative justice is embraced only in very few countries.
 
It's an interesting read and I'm sure this thread will be full of nice comments but in a week there'll be another thread about someone committing rape or murder or something and all the comments will be people decrying how short their sentence is and how they hope they themselves get raped/murdered during their prison stay.

Change has to start with how people view those who do wrong, hopefully one day we see them as human beings who can be rehabilitated.

I'm not American so the prison system here in Australia isn't quite as fucked but it is my sincere hope that the folks who murdered my brother came out of prison better human beings than when they went in.

Why would you use rape especially to make your point?
 

Eusis

Member
No.

Some people shouldn't be allowed to ever walk among us again.
Just end private prisons. The government WILL want to cut costs, and one of the easiest ways is to not be jailing harmless criminals for fucking ever. Save that for people who are a genuine menace to society.
 

Sulik2

Member
Yet another way the united states is broken beyond repair. We are a joke of a country that needs a new contistution and sweeping over hauls of the entire government on the state and local level. All three branches need to completely redesigned.
 
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