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TLOU II 2nd year anniversary!

DForce

Member
From a technical standpoint, the game was great. From a writing standpoint, it was a disaster.

I am still trying to figure out why exactly we need a separate thread about this game every few days though. It is the same conversation every time.

I mean, you're also this guy.

Yes, inconsistent character development and actions IS a plot hole, by definition. And anyone who pretends the Tommy getting shot in the head scene is not a plot hole is only proving their level of delusion about TLOU2.
Watched that scene 15 times, and it always is amazing that people still try and defend it.

 

DForce

Member
Might not count as headshot, it's still a serious wound with that amount of blood loss in less than a second.
That amount of blood loss is not fatal.

Joel's injury in TLOU 1 would be fatal and there's no way Ellie would know how to perform surgery.
 
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SJRB

Gold Member
On a technical level an incredible, mindblowing achievement for sure. It looks and sounds unreal.

Story and characters not withstanding the game truly is a masterpiece.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
That amount of blood loss is fatal.

Joel's injury in TLOU 1 would be fatal and there's no way Ellie would know how to perform surgery.
Talking about Joel's impalement? He kept pressure on the wound for the most part. Ellie tended the wound afterwards which makes it more believable he survived that. But yeah some suspension of disbelief was needed for that story beat. Stitching up a wound isn't major surgery though and seems well within Ellie's capabilities to me.

Tommy lies for a while with the wound unattended and he and the surviving gang travel 1000 miles back to Jackson. That for me is harder to believe without any further details. I'm sure that would be an interesting adventure to tell players.
 
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Ulysses 31

Member
You're all freaking weird. Movies, games, books and heck even music are mediums that largely rely on suspension of disbelief in order to enjoy.


He didn't die.
Probably because he got help asap afterwards and the wound wasn't caused by a bullet would be my guess.

TLOU does present themselves as more grounded and so I will be more critical of them as say, Bayonetta games.
 
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Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I think I might be in the minority but I actually liked Abby's character - more so than Ellie in this game!

Wouldn't say no to her and Lev DLC/standalone game
I kinda felt sorry for her at the end and I will say that the level where you are crossing tall structures to get to the hospital, is some of the best level design and one of the best levels in the series
 

DForce

Member
Talking about Joel's impalement? He kept pressure on the wound for the most part. Ellie tended the wound afterwards which makes it more believable he survived that. But yeah some suspension of disbelief was needed for that story beat. Stitching up a wound isn't major surgery though and seems well in Ellie's capabilities to me.

Tommy lies for a while with the wound unattended and he and the surviving gang travelling 1000 miles back to Jackson. That is harder to believe without any further details for me. I'm sure that would be an interesting adventure to tell players.

Keeping pressure doesn't stop the bleeding, it only slows it down.

And yes, you need major surgery to stitch up intestines and/or organs. Ellie would have to know how to perform this "surgery" in order for Joel to survive.
 

Tripolygon

Member
Probably because he got help asap afterwards and the wound wasn't caused by a bullet I would guess.

TLOU does present themselves as more grounded and so I will be more critical of them as say, Bayonetta games.
JFC dude, it is grounded in reality meaning things that happen in the game are plausible, draws on things that happen(ed) in our world and can be observed in our world, does not mean it is not embellished for dramatic effect and for the purpose of entertainment.

COD games are grounded in reality, it does not mean it is not embellished for dramatic effect and it does not mean you don't survive after getting shot 10 times and your health just goes back up.

The "Clickers" in TLOU which follow the cliche zombie trope is based on an infection that can be observed in nature in the insect world. Never been observed in humans but is grounded in reality.

And no, TLOU does not present themselves as more grounded than any other game, so your criticism is unfounded. Games in general demand that you suspend disbelief, so you are criticizing the game for being a game.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Keeping pressure doesn't stop the bleeding, it only slows it down.
Isn't that the point? To slow it down enough so it will eventually stop and avoid losing too much blood?
And yes, you need major surgery to stitch up intestines and/or organs. Ellie would have to know how to perform this "surgery" in order for Joel to survive.
If that's so then that is a plot hole that Ellie would know how to perform major surgery like that. Like I said, that whole section required some suspension of disbelief for me.
 
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I already did. He was not shot in the back of the head.
As you show a picture of a guy who's been shot in the back of the head. Lol ridiculous. What? He got hit on the side? And the big difference is? That is an awful lot of blood splatter for it to be a mere graze. Sorry, but I said this in the last nonsense TLOU2 thread, but there's no logical reason to defend that scene, if you're actually being objective. It is a litmus test between rationality and fanaticism.
 

DForce

Member
Isn't that the point? To slow it down enough so it will eventually stop and avoid losing too much blood?


If that's so then that is a plot hole that Ellie wouldn't know how to perform major surgery like that. Like I said, that whole section required some suspension of disbelief for me.
You're more than likely to die from blood loss from Joel's injury than Tommy's. Joel's survival depended on Ellie's ability to perform surgery.

Tommy didn't have to worry about severe blood loss and his injury wasn't fatal.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
JFC dude, it is grounded in reality meaning things that happen in the game are plausible, draws on things that happen(ed) in our world and can be observed in our world, does not mean it is not embellished for dramatic effect and for the purpose of entertainment.

COD games are grounded in reality, it does not mean it is not embellished for dramatic effect and it does not mean you don't survive after getting shot 10 times and your health just goes back up.
Yes but the auto regenerating health makes it less grounded than TLOU.

Yes I agree every media probably requires some suspension of disbelief, when I specifically mention it I'm pointing out a case that it requires too much of it for me.
The "Clickers" in TLOU which follow the cliche zombie trope is based on an infection that can be observed in nature in the insect world. Never been observed in humans but is grounded in reality.
The story hinges on you buying into something like the cordyceps infection existing from the start. Doesn't mean humans now also can suffer headwounds like the one Tommy did that remain unattended for so long.

If humans can somehow then that needs to be established first in some way.
And no, TLOU does not present themselves as more grounded than any other game, so your criticism is unfounded. Games in general demand that you suspend disbelief, so you are criticizing the game for being a game.
It does to. It has no auto regenerating health, or kill streak abilities.
 
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DForce

Member
As you show a picture of a guy who's been shot in the back of the head. Lol ridiculous. What? He got hit on the side? And the big difference is? That is an awful lot of blood splatter for it to be a mere graze. Sorry, but I said this in the last nonsense TLOU2 thread, but there's no logical reason to defend that scene, if you're actually being objective. It is a litmus test between rationality and fanaticism.

You said he was shot in the back of the head. You just repeated that and now you're saying he was shot on the side.

You're contradicting yourself while telling someone "there's no logical reason to defend this."

Anyone can see that he was not shot in the back of his head.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
You're more than likely to die from blood loss from Joel's injury than Tommy's. Joel's survival depended on Ellie's ability to perform surgery.
I agree that Joel's wound seems more serious to me but the would wasn't left unattended like Tommy's was which is why I lean more into accepting Joel survived it.
Tommy didn't have to worry about severe blood loss and his injury wasn't fatal.
You seem to assume that all the blood we see in my screenshot is the totality of the blood loss. I'm under the assumption the wound continues bleeding which is why I hammer on the not attending the wound point.
 
Played on base ps4 when it released (and all the world was raging on the plot). I really wish we could replay this on pc. At least, part 1 with 2's gameplay on pc, I'm totally in!
 

DForce

Member
I agree that Joel's wound seems more serious to me but the would wasn't left unattended like Tommy's was which is why I lean more into accepting Joel survived it.

Joel's wound is fatal. Tommy's wound isn't, which means Tommy had ample amount of time to be left unattended.
You seem to assume that all the blood we see in my screenshot is the totality of the blood loss. I'm under the assumption the wound continues bleeding which is why I hammer on the not attending the wound point.

I never said it was all the blood he lost. You think that amount of blood is pouring out of his body every second, which would be impossible coming from his eye. A person's eye would hold a decent amount of blood, and it's going to have splatter if shot.

A similar injury happened in The Walking Dead. Since TLOU referenced The Walking Dead in the first game, it wouldn't surprise me if they got Tommy's injury from Carl.

"The bullet kind of catches that bone as it comes down right above your cheekbone,” Nicotero, who has a background in pre-med, explained.The reality of whether [Carl] would be able to survive that or not was something that was important. We still simulated the fact that it nicked that bone. What we’re seeing is … is that’s why the bullet didn’t go in, but it hit that bone and sort of shot outward. When we did the initial sculptures Robert was very specific about making sure that we had remnants of what the artwork from the comic looked like."


But as I said many times before. You're going to spin this all day. The fact of the matter is, blood loss with Joel's injury was a major factor while that wasn't the case with Tommy. He could've survived much longer with an injury that likely only required removal of his eye and antibiotics.
 

Fox Mulder

Member
I still need to play it. I loved TLoU and got the platinum trophy, but got spoiled by the sequel plot leaking and I hated it and never bothered playing.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Joel's wound is fatal. Tommy's wound isn't, which means Tommy had ample amount of time to be left unattended.
Joel's wound is fatal if left unattended but it wasn't, so no big issues with him surviving it ultimately.

We don't get a good look of Tommy's wound so the story teller has some wiggle room to say it wasn't that bad after all. Though it still comes across as cheap shock value to me.

However, the gang still had to travel back 1000 miles in their injured state which still stretches credulity IMO.
I never said it was all the blood he lost. You think that amount of blood is pouring out of his body every second, which would be impossible coming from his eye. A person's eye would hold a decent amount of blood, and it's going to have splatter if shot.

A similar injury happened in The Walking Dead. Since TLOU referenced The Walking Dead in the first game, it wouldn't surprise me if they got Tommy's injury from Carl.




But as I said many times before. You're going to spin this all day. The fact of the matter is, blood loss with Joel's injury was a major factor while that wasn't the case with Tommy. He could've survived much longer with an injury that likely only required removal of his eye and antibiotics.
Video is blocked in my EU country and I didn't watch Walking Dead TV show past season 1.
 

RJMacready73

Gold Member
Amazing game.
A rollercoaster. Made me hate it, love it, hate it and love it and totally reversed my mind few times.
All it requires of you is to not be so fucking stubborn and let it take your for the feels ride !!!
Man it had me on that same rollercoaster, equal parts up off my chair yelling no no no no and equal parts fuck you fuck this fuck that and then back to no no no no no lol I utterly loved it, from the constant WOW of the world and it's small details to the sweating balls trying to get through a level, it has everything and by the end of it all I was emotionally wrung... By a fucking videogame no less, stunning.. I honestly can't fathom how anyone can play this game start to finish and not walk away thinking it was something uniquely special
 

rofif

Gold Member
Man it had me on that same rollercoaster, equal parts up off my chair yelling no no no no and equal parts fuck you fuck this fuck that and then back to no no no no no lol I utterly loved it, from the constant WOW of the world and it's small details to the sweating balls trying to get through a level, it has everything and by the end of it all I was emotionally wrung... By a fucking videogame no less, stunning.. I honestly can't fathom how anyone can play this game start to finish and not walk away thinking it was something uniquely special
I even remember calling my buddy and cussing to him about the game on the phone "fuck this stupid game neil fuckman and so on"
Only to call him 2 days later "dude I am coming right away with tlou2 and ps4. You are playing tlou2 motherfucker".
And he did and he love it to death ahhaaha
 

RJMacready73

Gold Member
You will believe that a skinny teenage lesbian can grenade 100 dogs, shoot 500 hundred humans and kill a pregnant woman.

Naughty Dog, you are AH-MAZING!

I know man how the fuck can a 3ft fat Italian plumber manage to jump and bounce around all those levels without once getting out of breath... Hell I'm still trying to figure out how you managed to switch your computer on without setting yourself on fire
 

DForce

Member
Joel's wound is fatal if left unattended but it wasn't, so no big issues with him surviving it ultimately.

We don't get a good look of Tommy's wound so the story teller has some wiggle room to say it wasn't that bad after all. Though it still comes across as cheap shock value to me.

However, the gang still had to travel back 1000 miles in their injured state which still stretches credulity IMO.


Video is blocked in my EU country and I didn't watch Walking Dead TV show past season 1.
Then you would know that Carl from The Walking Dead survived a similar injury with little medical attention. The quote already explained how it's not a vital organ. Tommy would be in a lot of pain for a long period of time and blood loss wouldn't be something to really worry about. So you have things stacked up against you.. unless you can provide evidence stating otherwise. Facts show that Joel's injury required surgery and Ellie would need to know how to perform it. The "gang" didn't need to travel back 1000 miles to receive medical attention. But infection? Joel was out for weeks and it didn't show Ellie finding antibiotics prior to meeting David.

So unless you can provide evidence supporting your case that it was a fatal injury, then you really have no point.
 

Tripolygon

Member
A similar injury happened in The Walking Dead. Since TLOU referenced The Walking Dead in the first game, it wouldn't surprise me if they got Tommy's injury from Carl.
Just to further back it up, this is Tommy, his injury was even less severe than Carl's.


snip

It does to. It has no auto regenerating health, or kill streak abilities.

At this point I'm not going to keep litigating these inane pedantic arguments. It is a video game; you are required to suspend your disbelief just like every other piece of media you consume. TLOU does not require more of you than any other game, if you feel that way then I don't know how you enjoy fantasy games or any game in general.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Then you would know that Carl from The Walking Dead survived a similar injury with little medical attention. The quote already explained how it's not a vital organ. Tommy would be in a lot of pain for a long period of time and blood loss wouldn't be something to really worry about. So you have things stacked up against you.. unless you can provide evidence stating otherwise. Facts show that Joel's injury required surgery and Ellie would need to know how to perform it. The "gang" didn't need to travel back 1000 miles to receive medical attention. But infection? Joel was out for weeks and it didn't show Ellie finding antibiotics prior to meeting David.

So unless you can provide evidence supporting your case that it was a fatal injury, then you really have no point.
I've already alluded to that it's possible the wound looked worse because of the blood. Still leaves him and the others making it back to a place 1000 miles away with their injuries in an apocalyptic setting. It's the combination of those 2 factors that stretches credulity.
At this point I'm not going to keep litigating these inane pedantic arguments. It is a video game; you are required to suspend your disbelief just like every other piece of media you consume. TLOU does not require more of you than any other game, if you feel that way then I don't know how you enjoy fantasy games or any game in general.
Yes it does, I won't hold TLOU to the same standard as Bayonetta or The Wonderful 101. Those games are way over the top and they make no excuses for it. TLOUs take themselves way more seriously and thus they open themselves up to more scrutiny from me.
 

Tripolygon

Member
Yes it does, I won't hold TLOU to the same standard as Bayonetta or The Wonderful 101. Those games are way over the top and they make no excuses for it. TLOUs take themselves way more seriously and thus they open themselves up to more scrutiny from me.
That is in your head. I have consumed just about every media the developers of this game have produced and at no point have they compared TLOU to any game in terms of how grounded it is or how serious it is. At no point have they talked about how true to life and realistic it is. When something is grounded in reality it means it has some basis to the real world and not entirely fantastical. Your scrutiny is pedantic at best and all it does is derail threads created to celebrate the game. You have been showed how Tommy's injuries is plausibly survivable using other instances in other media with a Dr talking about how it is survivable. The blood loss is survivable using real world example. Ultimately, again it is a video game.
 
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Ulysses 31

Member
That is in your head. I have consumed just about every media the developers of this game have produced and at no point have they compared TLOU to any game in terms of how grounded it is or how serious it is. At no point have they talked about how true to life and realistic it is. When something is grounded in reality it means it has some basis to the real world and not entirely fantastical. Your scrutiny is pedantic at best and all it does is derail threads created to celebrate the game.
That is on me yes, I don't paint games with the same brush but look at them individually. More serious presenting games like TLOU will get more scrutiny from me.

Games have different ways of presenting themselves. Each with different strengths and weaknesses. The seriousness of TLOU games can make emotionally investing in characters easier but also easier to break when things seem at odds with the story telling.
You have been showed how Tommy's injuries is plausibly survivable using other instances in other media with a Dr talking about how it is survivable. The blood loss is survivable using real world example. Ultimately, again it is a video game.
It's the combination with the apocalyptic setting that makes it harder to believe he just survives and travels 1000 miles back. Just taking it on faith because the story teller says so is lazy story telling IMO.
 

Chiggs

Gold Member
I know man how the fuck can a 3ft fat Italian plumber manage to jump and bounce around all those levels without once getting out of breath...

Not that your hare-brained, shoot-from-the-hip post merits a response, but I'm feeling charitable today. You ready, tiger?
  • One is a game about post-apocalyptic survival, which grounds itself in gritty realism, stomach-churning violence and scavenging/crafting; the other is a 2D platformer that has never even remotely tried to be realistic.
You still follow? I can break it down into even simpler terms for you if you need me to. Since you couldn't identify the drastic tonal differences between the two games, I'm more than prepared to help...even if that means spoon-feeding you.

Hell I'm still trying to figure out how you managed to switch your computer on without setting yourself on fire

Well, since my profession is content production and design, I routinely use computers and various content production suites to bring in my mid-six figure salary every year, which I've brought in for well over a decade now.

Feels good, man.

P.S. Let me know if you want to compare LinkedIn profiles.
 
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TheInfamousKira

Reseterror Resettler
TLOU2 was an incredibly detailed game, very long campaign, satisfying if non ambitious combat, wonderful presentation and sound design, great performances, and one of the only games I've ever played that nailed the dread/suspense aspect of horror. Silent Hill is always gonna be GOAT horror franchise for me, but the absolute uncertainty and oppresiveness throughout basically all of Part Ii is something to be applauded.

I'm well on record for thinking the pacing is terrible and the story, while serviceable, felt very contrived, like events occurred because Druckman wanted them to, and not as a natural result of the narrative consequences of actions, but...

Game deserves a lot of praise. Some people are extra hard on it not because of hate, but because they hold the franchise to a higher standard than other titles.
 

MagnesD3

Member
The fact every TLOU2 topic goes down this road just shows what a massive moment it was.
Even the ones that didn't like it can't help themselves and end up commenting.

2 years later and it still bothers people.
Massive kudos to Naughty Dog. It's not everyday a game releases that isn't indifferent to anyone.
It's more a testimate to Last of Us 1 than anything..
 
I think this is a fair comparison, but MGS2 ended up outselling MGS. I don't think that's going to happen with TLOU2.
Not with TLoU Part I getting a remake, but TLoU Part II is still going to sell a lot over time, both with the remake releasing and then later with the series.
 
I think this is a fair comparison, but MGS2 ended up outselling MGS. I don't think that's going to happen with TLOU2.
TLOU sold over 10M copies because it was re-released...if not it would never get there.
I don't think the 2nd game will ever outsell the first due to toe TV show, the remake coming out soon...but it all depends if they remaster the second game and how successful the tv show is as well.
 
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