Support NeoGAF

[xxjuicesxx]

So wait you can be a general in any playlist after a whole bunch of experience is earned in that playlist... but you won't be a general in the players service record AND you will still be matched up according to your "skill level".

So what the hell is the point in adding this all new system? It sounds purely cosmetic to me?

 

[Daigoro]

sounds interesting. im looking forward to the update.

i like the idea of putting in a littbe bit of objective stuff in Doubles as well. we'll see how that turns out. (i agree that flags could get messy though).

 

[kylej]

So wait you can be a general in any playlist after a whole bunch of experience is earned in that playlist... but you won't be a general in the players service record AND you will still be matched up according to your "skill level".

So what the hell is the point in adding this all new system? It sounds purely cosmetic to me?

What they should have done is made the ranking system way more flexible for people with a lot of exp. It doesn't even have to be as easy to go up and down as it is for brand new accounts. Just make it so you don't have to win 50 games in a row to go up one level for senior players.

To me it looks like this "fix" is purely superficial and won't help ease the frustration so many players have with the TrueSkill system.

 

[TDG]

I agree, but most of objective stuff in Doubles doesn't work well IMO. King of the Hill and Oddball I'll maybe give you, but any flag variant in Doubles can get the fuck out. Like blueblur said, basically if you get killed and they get your flag, you're completely fucked by spawn times since there's only two of you. Same with oddball, with only two people respawn times will totally fuck you if the other team has the oddball.

Ironically, although VIP is terrible in Big Team, I think it'd actually work very well in Doubles, but it's not in there (or at least I've never gotten it).

I think 1 flag on Blackout has potential to be fun, and Oddball will be good on non-shield door maps. KOTH should be good as well. We'll just have to see how things end up.

I agree about VIP as well. One-sided VIP could work well also, and I could even see the escort variant being fun. (kill opponents, move while they spawn, take cover, repeat)

 

[kylej]

One-sided VIP could work

http://www.qwizx.com/gssfx/usa/tpirhorns.wav

 

[TDG]

To me it looks like this "fix" is purely superficial and won't help ease the frustration so many players have with the TrueSkill system.

Uh, isn't the problem that most people have with TrueSkill that it's hard to level up, and they feel like they're not accomplishing anything? Well, this new system will help people feel like they're accomplishing something. Problems ficksed: confirmed.

 

[godhandiscen]

Team Doubles

* ADDED Oddball
* ADDED King of the Hill
* ADDED 2 Flag on the Pit
* ADDED 1 Flag on Blackout



And thats it. They just killed that playlist for me.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

To me it looks like this "fix" is purely superficial and won't help ease the frustration so many players have with the TrueSkill system.

Of course it's superficial, it was never going to be anything else. The TrueSkill system is too ingrained in the game to be able to be updated like you're expecting. I'm pretty sure Bungie have confirmed this on numerous occasions, anyway.

 

[kylej]

Uh, isn't the problem that most people have with TrueSkill that it's hard to level up, and they feel like they're not accomplishing anything? Well, this new system will help people feel like they're accomplishing something. Problems ficksed: confirmed.

Yeah but I'm not sure this will make people feel like they're accomplishing anything. Maybe the pretty icon is really what most people want though.

 

[Metroidvania]

New update certainly sounds....interesting. I think I understand it, but seeing it in action for a vidoc certainly wouldn't hurt....

Spoiler

hint-hint

Not sure about oddball on doubles, but I have faith, Shiska....don't let me down. :lol

 

[soldat7]

Uh, isn't the problem that most people have with TrueSkill that it's hard to level up, and they feel like they're not accomplishing anything? Well, this new system will help people feel like they're accomplishing something. Problems ficksed: confirmed.

I see things this way. I'm very optimistic.

 

[xxjuicesxx]

What they should have done is made the ranking system way more flexible for people with a lot of exp. It doesn't even have to be as easy to go up and down as it is for brand new accounts. Just make it so you don't have to win 50 games in a row to go up one level for senior players.

To me it looks like this "fix" is purely superficial and won't help ease the frustration so many players have with the TrueSkill system.

Well currently Exp has nothing to do with the ranking really. Just tends to be a player with more Exp has more games played in a playlist and THAT makes it harder to rank up or down. This is also true in my experience too I'm very stuck at 38 in MLG, of which I play a lot of, and you can go check my games for proof but I move very fast up in Lone Wolves which I don't play much of. After a lot of games played in a playlist the ranking system gets an idea of where you should be skilled at. Problem is this is often wrong.

Domino sent me a link awhile back showing that Trueskill might have some sort of Weighting system to reduce earlier games played importance but I don't think its implemented in the modified system of Trueskill that Bungie uses for Halo 3.

If this is true this would be the best fix, to implement a Moving Weighted Averages system into Halo 3. Make it take into account the last 50 games, all other games do not matter BESIDES being a historic basis for what level you are at. Meaning if you made it to 46 in the last 50 games good but once you play your 51st game the results of game 1 no longer are factored into what you will become after the results of game 51. Once you play game 52 game 2 no longer matters and so on. Have the last 10 games weighted more than the next 20 and so on down to games 50-41 which will be the least weighted. This makes it so you can never truely get STUCK at a rank. Because lets face it a players skill will always be increasing. Just may not seem that way because everyone elses skill is increasing too.

 

[kylej]

If this is true this would be the best fix, to implement a Moving Weighted Averages system into Halo 3. Make it take into account the last 50 games, all other games do not matter BESIDES being a historic basis for what level you are at. Meaning if you made it to 46 in the last 50 games good but once you play your 51st game the results of game 1 no longer are factored into what you will become after the results of game 51. Once you play game 52 game 2 no longer matters and so on. Have the last 10 games weighted more than the next 20 and so on down to games 50-41 which will be the least weighted. This makes it so you can never truely get STUCK at a rank. Because lets face it a players skill will always be increasing. Just may not seem that way because everyone elses skill is increasing too.

Now that's what I'm talking about. That would be a great solution.

 

[Domino Theory]

Yeah but I'm not sure this will make people feel like they're accomplishing anything. Maybe the pretty icon is really what most people want though.

That's the thing, though. People like being a lvl 50 while they're still Captains so they can easily progress through the military ranks and hit the pretty General icon. They rid their pain of worrying about "retard bars, noob bars, etc."

Spoiler

Well, at least I'm all about the icon.

 

[Blueblur1]

Team Doubles

* ADDED Oddball
* ADDED King of the Hill
* ADDED 2 Flag on the Pit
* ADDED 1 Flag on Blackout



And thats it. They just killed that playlist for me.

You, Sailor and I are on the same page. I'm glad its not just me.

Of course it's superficial, it was never going to be anything else. The TrueSkill system is too ingrained in the game to be able to be updated like you're expecting.

Right, so there's almost no point to it. Without experiencing it myself, I see this update as a major waste of Bungie time and manpower.

 

[Domino Theory]

These new Playlist emblems will be familiar to Halo 3 players, but they have received a light graphical pass in game to distinguish Playlist Ratings from your Overall Rating.

So lvl 45 Generals will have a different icon than a lvl 50 icon?

I love the 2 star looking General rank.

 

[mood]

So lvl 45 Generals will have a different icon than a lvl 50 icon?

I love the 2 star looking General rank.

Judging by the sergeant graphic, it may be silver.

 

[INTERNET]

So no podcast this week?

Chunky_Lover asks: When will we expect a new podcast, man?

We had one ready to go during the week of E3, we’re back now and have another one in the can that should be out sometime next week.

 

[LukeSmith]

Uh, isn't the problem that most people have with TrueSkill that it's hard to level up, and they feel like they're not accomplishing anything? Well, this new system will help people feel like they're accomplishing something. Problems ficksed: confirmed.

The problem that most people have with TrueSkill and their Skill Value in Halo 3 is that they think it should be something they *can* level up. The reason for that being that it was attached to particular ranks when Halo 3 shipped. You're all free to discuss how hard it is to "level up" in Trueskill, but that's not Trueskill's intent or purpose. It's absolutely frustrating to have this number move for X games and then one day stop moving, I understand those sentiments completely, but nonetheless it's not like "leveling up" in practice - in principle the language of a number changing and advancing over time certainly is, but Trueskill is just trying to get you to a place where it feels like you will have the best competition.

 

[LukeSmith]

So no podcast this week?

No, we recorded some extra stuff for it this week. So it got delayed totalez

 

[TDG]

The problem that most people have with TrueSkill and their Skill Value in Halo 3 is that they think it should be something they *can* level up. The reason for that being that it was attached to particular ranks when Halo 3 shipped. You're all free to discuss how hard it is to "level up" in Trueskill, but that's not Trueskill's intent or purpose. It's absolutely frustrating to have this number move for X games and then one day stop moving, I understand those sentiments completely, but nonetheless it's not like "leveling up" in practice - in principle the language of a number changing and advancing over time certainly is, but Trueskill is just trying to get you to a place where it feels like you will have the best competition.

I understand what you mean. I think we've been over this several times, but a lot of people think of their levels like levels in an RPG... by playing enough games they should eventually be able to increase their level, but trueskill is meant to match you up with people of your skill, not reward you. You may not be able to progress past level 42 because the system has decided that you are a level 42, and should be matched up with people of a similar skill. However, this makes you frustrated because the levels are thought of as something you earn and progress through, so when it becomes nearly impossible to increase your level, playing the game becomes a very frustrating experience.

Now, people can feel like they are being rewarded for playing a lot, while still being matched with people to create as competetive a game as possible.

That sounds like a win-win to me, assuming I'm understanding you correctly.

 

[kylej]

You may not be able to progress past level 42 because the system has decided that you are a level 42, and should be matched up with people of a similar skill.

Yeah but this is the inherent flaw in the system. If I make a brand new account and play Team Slayer, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that 2 or 3 wins as a 42 will level me up to 43. Even if I play like absolute trash as a 42 and get carried in those 3 games I still level up. Meanwhile, the guy stuck at 42 who is legitimately increasing his skill by practicing and playing the game will have a much harder time leveling up. I understand what the system is trying to do, but I don't think it works well at all.

Juices had the best idea for a fix. That's what I would like to see implemented, and I'll leave this discussion at that.

 

[DancingJesus]

I understand what you mean. I think we've been over this several times, but a lot of people think of their levels like levels in an RPG... by playing enough games they should eventually be able to increase their level, but trueskill is meant to match you up with people of your skill, not reward you. You may not be able to progress past level 42 because the system has decided that you are a level 42, and should be matched up with people of a similar skill. However, this makes you frustrated because the levels are thought of as something you earn and progress through, so when it becomes nearly impossible to increase your level, playing the game becomes a very frustrating experience.

Now, people can feel like they are being rewarded for playing a lot, while still being matched with people to create as competetive a game as possible.

That sounds like a win-win to me, assuming I'm understanding you correctly.

Awesome post, 100% agree. No matter how much I try that little number irks me and when I win I should be rewarded for it. I'm glad Bungie saw this same concern and decided to do a revamp of the system.

 

[Domino Theory]

Judging by the sergeant graphic, it may be silver.

Boo!

 

[Stinkles]

i can has bars?

 

[Tashi]

So, I've fully digested the Weekly Update about the second auto-update. I really like it. I'm already a General so I'm glad all that hard work I put into getting it isn't going anywhere. I like the idea of getting individual experience ranks for each playlist. That's gonna keep people playing the game for even longer. This is good. Good job.

 

[Kibbles]

So, is it true that if you have low EXP then you level up quicker? I assume that's why people always quit?

 

[Domino Theory]

Now that Metroid is officially going to PAX, I'm booking my PAX flight this weekend! Can't wait to see you all there

@ Kibbles: Having a lot of EXP just means you've played a lot of games, but it depends on HOW MANY games you've played in a certain ranked playlist. A person who's played 50 ranked games in TS will have a much easier time ranking up than a guy who's played 500 ranked TS games.

 

[MaritalWheat]

Yeah, objective games in Doubles is worse than the Banshee on Ascension in a Team Rifles match. Waiting 10 seconds to respawn after being spawn killed along with my team mate and watching my flag/oddball get stolen and captured is not my idea of fun. It sucked in Halo 2 and I'm sure it will suck in Halo 3.

Thanks for everything else but that, Shiska.

Dude, small objective based games are the shit. I remember the days when me and a bud would play 1v1 multi-flag on Beaver Creek hours on end. Now those were the glory days.

 

[Ramirez]

What's so bad about the objective games in Team Doubles? Halo 2 had them, Multi Flag on Midship was great...

The only bad things I can see is if they don't fix areas like the top spawn rooms on The Pit, specifically for Oddball.

 

[Cuckooo]

So, is it true that if you have low EXP then you level up quicker? I assume that's why people always quit?

I'm not sure if you level up faster if you have negative exp, but it certainly makes people in your party level up faster.

This is evident mostly in doubles.. Take this guy for example:

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Halo3/default.aspx?player=GoDz+FaTaL

He's got to 50 in about 30 something games, he was levelling up at least 1 level every game, even on 49 it took him one game. This is surely down to the guy with negative exp, I have no idea how it works.. maybe it thinks you have to 'carry' your lower ranked friend against higher skilled players.

When I got to 50 it must have taken about 3 wins from 49 to 50 (this is playing with a regular exp guy) and I'd only lost around 5-10 matches en route to 49, idk. ha

 

[Dirtbag]

Now that Metroid is officially going to PAX, I'm booking my PAX flight this weekend! Can't wait to see you all there

@ Kibbles: Having a lot of EXP just means you've played a lot of games, but it depends on HOW MANY games you've played in a certain ranked playlist. A person who's played 50 ranked games in TS will have a much easier time ranking up than a guy who's played 500 ranked TS games.

Well its about fucking time since I booked the hotel room already.

Party's will be had, drinks will be shed, games will be played....

 

[GhaleonEB]

i can has bars?

Depends. You over 21?

I think more granular, playlist-specific rankings is great. Now people will see why I'm only a 20 overall. I live in BTB Social. :lol

(Though I'm going to try ranked more now that there's a Sandtrap Heavies.)

 

[Metroidvania]

Now that Metroid is officially going to PAX, I'm booking my PAX flight this weekend! Can't wait to see you all there

Yeah, had to check over a few things.

Eazy, you'll have to bring your 360 so us non-drinkers can get some split-screen in.

 

[Ramirez]

So apparently I attended Comic-Con...


Subject: Hey i got a question
MenOfChrist
Member
Sent: 8/1/2008

can me and my other friends go against you guys cause me and my friends want to see you play very good. A fellow player MenOfChrist =) (P.S i saw u at comic-con it was fun there see you next year!)

Silly rabbit...

 

[Blueblur1]

Well its about fucking time since I booked the hotel room already.

Party's will be had, drinks will be shed, games will be played....

Counting down the days, dude.

 

[MrDaravon]

Yeah but this is the inherent flaw in the system. If I make a brand new account and play Team Slayer, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that 2 or 3 wins as a 42 will level me up to 43. Even if I play like absolute trash as a 42 and get carried in those 3 games I still level up. Meanwhile, the guy stuck at 42 who is legitimately increasing his skill by practicing and playing the game will have a much harder time leveling up. I understand what the system is trying to do, but I don't think it works well at all.

Juices had the best idea for a fix. That's what I would like to see implemented, and I'll leave this discussion at that.

Yeah, that's basically my problem as well. I counted, I once handily came in number 1 or 2 ten games in a row in Lone Wolves, and went from 41 to 42. I "lost" once by coming in 4th, and dropped to 41. I came in first or second either 4 or 5 games after that, and didn't budge. That was officially the point I didn't give a shit about ranks in Halo. This system might work IF people didn't make alts to specifically get around it. It's frustrating as hell to see people who have played less than 100 games be a skill 50, or close to. Bungie can talk about how alts don't really affect your gameplay experience since they blow past you as they're leveling up, but it makes it feel like I've accomplished jack shit for actually trying to improve myself. I'd made an honest attempt to to watch videos and try to get better at the game, but there's no fucking point. I stick purely to Social Big Team with groups of people now. The update is pretty, but ultimately does nothing to really eliminate any of this. Getting rid of displaying your skill # would have done so much to improve the game, my last hope is gone

 

[GDJustin]

Why all the confusing-as-hell answers? Why not just say, in plain language,

"We're uncoupling your military rank from your trueskill 1-50 rank. You can now become a general without hitting level 50. You'll also have a separate military rank in each playlist, which will go up the more you play in that list. So you might be a general in team slayer, and a sergeant in Team Objective."

There you go! Confusion solved. This Bungie update was honetly confusing as balls, and Luke's "explanations" in this topic were even more confusing :lol

 

[MrDaravon]

Why all the confusing-as-hell answers? Why not just say, in plain language,

"We're uncoupling your military rank from your trueskill 1-50 rank. You can now become a general without hitting level 50. You'll also have a separate military rank in each playlist, which will go up the more you play in that list. So you might be a general in team slayer, and a sergeant in Team Objective."

There you go! Confusion solved. This Bungie update was honetly confusing as balls, and Luke's "explanations" in this topic were even more confusing :lol

What's uncoupling mean!? What the fuck


Edit: unrelated but regarding PAX talk, they're doing an east coast PAX starting in 2010, whooooo

 

[GDJustin]

What's uncoupling mean!? What the fuck

Funny funny.

 

[MrDaravon]

Funny funny.

I kid because I love. And I've been drinking, I had to think about that one for a split second. Too bad urk's not around, Halo was...interesting tonight.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

Is Halo 3 actually using Microsoft's standard TrueSkill system, or is it a tweaked version?

 

[xxjuicesxx]

Another Example: Say you have a group of 4 *cough* Team Jesus *cough* and you always go in together in TS you have played quite a bit and know each other and callouts/setups you probably won't lose in MM until you get much higher up but afterwards you might lose here and there but hitting 50 will be semi-easy.

Now say you go in alone up until 45. You might win much more than you lose because you know you are closer to rank 50 than your current rank 10 so you win a bunch but along the way you get TERRIBLE teammates or quitters , kids who aren't playing normal so you lose a few. Then you get your team together at 45 and it takes a bunch more wins than it should to hit 50 as a team because you have a bunch of scars on your record. Just from going in alone

Now imagine ALWAYS going in alone because you don't want to be bothered gathering a team.

How does knowing a person or people determine YOUR SKILL?

Solutions:

1) Maybe in the future there would be no social instead there would be Ranked and Potluck Ranked. Where Ranked you can partner up and potluck you could not. Your Highest Skill setting would be based on your highest Potluck Ranked Playlist Skill. The rest of the playlists would still be ranked but invisible and loosened a little.
2) Or just Highest Skill is RANKED Lone Wolves and the rest of the ranked playlists would still be ranked but not count towards Highest Skill. This would also mean the only true way with the current system to get a General would be to hit 50 in LW. This would drastically reduce the number of Generals AND give Generals a larger meaning and really tell a person that that player is a very good player.

Suggestions:

1) Don't do anything that drastic instead keep current system but introduce the Weighted Moving Averages forecasting system
2) Make ranks Invisible and introduce the Exp advances your Status, this way you just play AND progress but there IS a ranking system to all the madness that you don't have to worry about.

Alternative Suggestion:

1) Implement my 6v6 double experience weekend playlist into August or September.

These would be drastic but technically its the only FAIR way the ranking system could ever truly work.

 

[MrDaravon]

Alternative Suggestion:

1) Implement my 6v6 double experience weekend playlist into August or September

:lol

 

[def sim]

early sat halo time

 

[firehawk12]

I'm sure everyone is done with campaign, but is there anyone here up for co-op?

 

[t4ng0]

I'm not sure if you level up faster if you have negative exp, but it certainly makes people in your party level up faster.

This is evident mostly in doubles.. Take this guy for example:

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Halo3/default.aspx?player=GoDz+FaTaL

He's got to 50 in about 30 something games, he was levelling up at least 1 level every game, even on 49 it took him one game. This is surely down to the guy with negative exp, I have no idea how it works.. maybe it thinks you have to 'carry' your lower ranked friend against higher skilled players.

When I got to 50 it must have taken about 3 wins from 49 to 50 (this is playing with a regular exp guy) and I'd only lost around 5-10 matches en route to 49, idk. ha

Yeah, I don't understand it either - on my new account I've won at least 40 doubles games, (no losses), and I'm only a 26. What's more frustrating is that it took 10 games to go from 25 to 26..

 

[GhaleonEB]

Team Melee is pretty neat. It brings out all the flaws in the sword and hammer combat, but it's still crazy fun.

One question: pick ups are turned off. So why leave equipment on the map? I kept running for stuff when I spotted it only to realize I wasn't allowed to pick it up. It was confusing.

Also, a suggestion. I'm red/green colorblind. This really messed with me when there is a red and a green team. Perhaps yellow for a third one?

 

[Deleted member 21120]

Team Melee is pretty neat. It brings out all the flaws in the sword and hammer combat, but it's still crazy fun.

One question: pick ups are turned off. So why leave equipment on the map? I kept running for stuff when I spotted it only to realize I wasn't allowed to pick it up. It was confusing.

Also, a suggestion. I'm red/green colorblind. This really messed with me when there is a red and a green team. Perhaps yellow for a third one?

Dude, so what do red and green look like to you? Red? Or green?

Or how would you even know...

 

[GhaleonEB]

Or how would you even know...

I've spent a good 25 years answering that question. I still don't know. :lol

They look the same.