• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.

News Analysis Sonic Games will now be "In development for longer for quality reasons"

Dec 12, 2018
1,161
1,311
420
The problem is not the boost mode in 3D Sonic, but boost mode in 2D Sonic levels. Was a shit move.
it worked for Sonic Rush

but the 2D segments in the boost games weren't exactly a highlight, I agree. I feel they did good on Generations with them but later you get several mechanics from the modern 3D Sonic era and it kinda sucks, because it refutes the point of even having classic Sonic to begin with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cireza

Miles708

Member
Sep 11, 2019
1,263
1,625
415

I don't care what anyone says, the boost games nail it. Adventure style is fine too but I feel like they need a lot of rework to be still as enjoyable. 06 was basically Adventure 3. So there is that..
I actually LOVE Sonic Unleashed and I think it's a genuinely awesome game, but he problem is that "boost Sonic" really peaked with Sonic Unleashed, it's basically all been downhill from there (even Generations never reaches the same heights, while still being very good), and the reason is that there's really nothing to expand upon.
You can't really make it any more engaging or surprising than Sonic Unleashed, with that gameplay style.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SnapShot
Dec 12, 2018
1,161
1,311
420
I actually LOVE Sonic Unleashed and I think it's a genuinely awesome game, but he problem is that "boost Sonic" really peaked with Sonic Unleashed, it's basically all been downhill from there (even Generations never reaches the same heights, while still being very good), and the reason is that there's really nothing to expand upon.
You can't really make it any more engaging or surprising than Sonic Unleashed, with that gameplay style.
I mean, give it creative leveldesign with branching paths, build it around speedrunning with a focus on online competitions, give it as much content as possible, try to make it bigger and better. Take advantage of it being basically a racing game on foot. Unleashed nailed it with the day stages, but I feel like there could be a little more done. Maybe include Tails and Knuckles (also boost gameplay, but with different levels made with Tails flying and Knuckles climbing in mind) I dont think its impossible making another great boost game. Forces was a low effort compared to the other boost games.
 
Dec 12, 2018
1,161
1,311
420
No, worked for you. 2D Sonic games was almost death until Sonic Mania came with proper physics.
I mean the reason for that was Sonic 4, if anything. Advance and Rush was well recieved back then. I enjoyed all the 2D Sonic games on handheld, exception is Generations 3DS and both Rivals games.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
May 4, 2005
16,488
6,069
1,875
33
Germany
www.gaming-universe.de
it worked for Sonic Rush

but the 2D segments in the boost games weren't exactly a highlight, I agree. I feel they did good on Generations with them but later you get several mechanics from the modern 3D Sonic era and it kinda sucks, because it refutes the point of even having classic Sonic to begin with.
Indeed, the Rush games were a blast.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
May 4, 2005
16,488
6,069
1,875
33
Germany
www.gaming-universe.de
Sonic games weren't bad named "boost to win"out of nothing.
They were named that out of ignorance is all. They are performance games, so yes, reaching the end of a level is not always very difficult, but the actual goal is to get an S-Rank and that is far from boost to win. In either Rush game, Unleashed or Generations.
 
Last edited:

Saber

Member
Jan 30, 2019
3,812
3,503
660
yeah yeah, whatever you say champ. S ranked that h*e and had much fun with it.

You don't even amuses me using a bad example. The game uses a terrible physics and the boost to win came with this as a result of basically ignoring enemies and passing through them.

I can even give credit to at least the first Sonic Advance for gba. Even though the game is far from perfect, its the one stands out because it close reminds its originals.

But later with Rush only took the bad aspects of the game(which was kinda of an improved idea from Advance 2 and 3). No wonder Rush is dead, to the point of them being afraid to name Sonic Colors for DS a Rush 3(which is Rush 3, just with a different tag).

They were named that out of ignorance is all.

Ignorance is pretending that boosting don't destroy all enemies on your path, which is basically what the game do unless you prove me otherwise. Perfomance has nothing to do with, not reason to talk about something that only the ones interested in best the game will do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Starlight Lotice

Miles708

Member
Sep 11, 2019
1,263
1,625
415
I mean, give it creative leveldesign with branching paths, build it around speedrunning with a focus on online competitions, give it as much content as possible, try to make it bigger and better. Take advantage of it being basically a racing game on foot. Unleashed nailed it with the day stages, but I feel like there could be a little more done. Maybe include Tails and Knuckles (also boost gameplay, but with different levels made with Tails flying and Knuckles climbing in mind) I dont think its impossible making another great boost game. Forces was a low effort compared to the other boost games.

Thankfully Sonic Forces is not representative of the last Sonic games, it's just devoid of any effort or creativity. It would be interesting to understand what exactly went wrong during production.

As for an hypotetical Unleashed 2, i'm still not sure how you could really expand it without making it even more extreme and QTE-like.
But your comment about a multiplayer/competitive boost chapter could be actually really interesting. I'd like to see a spin-off like that, honestly.

Sonic Rush? Like, really?
Pff, this game is pathetic. A mix of bad level design, physics, story, etc.
Sonic games weren't bad named "boost to win"out of nothing.

Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure are awesome, man :messenger_crying: especially Rush Adventure, even if you don't like the boost 2d gameplay, there's an egregious hi-speed platformer, and a lot of content, behind the boost.
 
Last edited:
Dec 12, 2018
1,161
1,311
420
You don't even amuses me using a bad example. The game uses a terrible physics and the boost to win came with this as a result of basically ignoring enemies and passing through them.
What do you want? Feel sorry for liking a game you don't? I enjoyed those games, I had no problems with the physics. Its different to classic Sonic but still good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yoshi
Dec 12, 2018
1,161
1,311
420
As for an hypotetical Unleashed 2, i'm still not sure how you could really expand it without making it even more extreme and QTE-like.
As for the general mechanics, I agree, but what it boils down to are interesting level designs and memorable set pieces. Thats what Forces lacked the most and thats why its a bland game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Roman Empire

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
May 4, 2005
16,488
6,069
1,875
33
Germany
www.gaming-universe.de
Ignorance is pretending that boosting don't destroy all enemies on your path, which is basically what the game do unless you prove me otherwise.
Boosting does destroy most enemies, but it makes you more vulnerable to other dangers due to lower reaction time. Moreover, management of boost energy is a very important aspect, because unless you play well, you do not have enough boost energy to boost from start to finish.
Perfomance has nothing to do with, not reason to talk about something that only the ones interested in best the game will do.
This argument is stupid, because the whole game design is focussed on the performance aspect. That's like saying "Crazy Taxi is shit and short, because you only play it for two minutes and then it's end of the game". Sonic is arcady in its design approach in that the levels are optimised towards giving a lot of room for player growth. Being super unforgiving with just finishing the game's story would scare away younger players without a lot of gain for the players who play the game for its core content.
 

Roman Empire

Member
May 8, 2020
391
368
265
I guess Sega is taking the movie approach hahaha. Seriously, the fans were begging for years so Sega would just reveal a sonic game that has quality. It just baffles me for they taking this long to realize.
 

Saber

Member
Jan 30, 2019
3,812
3,503
660
Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure are awesome, man :messenger_crying: especially Rush Adventure, even if you don't like the boost 2d gameplay, there's an egregious hi-speed platformer, and a lot of content, behind the boost.

Hey don't take the wrong way. If you like the game go for it. Kudos to you, I mean no harm.

What do you want? Feel sorry for liking a game you don't? I enjoyed those games, I had no problems with the physics. Its different to classic Sonic but still good.

Good for you I think? If you take what I say as personal its not my fault.


Boosting does destroy most enemies, but it makes you more vulnerable to other dangers due to lower reaction time.

Whats next, defending Boost because it doesn't protect you from endless pit? Lol

This argument is stupid, because the whole game design is focussed on the performance aspect. That's like saying "Crazy Taxi is shit and short, because you only play it for two minutes and then it's end of the game". Sonic is arcady in its design approach in that the levels are optimised towards giving a lot of room for player growth. Being super unforgiving with just finishing the game's story would scare away younger players without a lot of gain for the players who play the game for its core content.

No its not. Sonic main games were not about performance and never were. Thats the dumbest argument ever. Performance is something to reward expert players, but was never a forced mechanic, hence why stupid.

Getting good grades or not won't gonna change that boost completelly negates most of enemies with one button and with the conjuction of homming attack, theres little to no reason for their existence.

The best approach with boost games is doing a mix of level design that incentives plataforming, without rellying way to much on a mechanic.
 

Fbh

Member
Dec 6, 2013
15,493
11,197
1,070
Good.
Though I still think the main issue with the franchise is their need to re-invent the wheel with every new game. Just stick to something for a while and improve upon it.
 
Mar 14, 2018
566
833
360
just posting to remind everyone that lost world and colours are NOT good games and anyone saying so is demonstrating extreme levels of cope
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
May 4, 2005
16,488
6,069
1,875
33
Germany
www.gaming-universe.de
Whats next, defending Boost because it doesn't protect you from endless pit? Lol
Boost changes the dangers, it makes pits and spikes more dangerous, but enemies less dangerous.
Sonic games and Sonic fans have equal reputation you know. Sonic Forces is really a mediocre game in any aspect, but is OK to like those types of game I guess.
You guess? See how I care whether you allow me to like the game...
 

Saber

Member
Jan 30, 2019
3,812
3,503
660
Boost changes the dangers, it makes pits and spikes more dangerous, but enemies less dangerous.

That could be said about Super Sonic(no spikes though), spin dash,attacking on speed mode(Sonic ADV 2), etc.

Since I'm feeling I'm dragging way too much just because of a joke of a game let me say that I have nothing against boost. I just think the level designs needs to be better created in order to make a healthy gameplay. You on the other hand needs to understand what exactly ranks means in a Sonic game.
 

Miles708

Member
Sep 11, 2019
1,263
1,625
415
Sonic main games were not about performance and never were. Thats the dumbest argument ever. Performance is something to reward expert players, but was never a forced mechanic, hence why stupid.

Getting good grades or not won't gonna change that boost completelly negates most of enemies with one button and with the conjuction of homming attack, theres little to no reason for their existence.

The best approach with boost games is doing a mix of level design that incentives plataforming, without rellying way to much on a mechanic.

That's quite a good remark actually, and what made older Sonic games all-time classics.
Going back to Hydrocity Zone in Sonic 3, or Mystic Cave Zone in Sonic 2 (just an example), the gameplay is surprisingly slow and requires a good amount of attention.
That's the main "feature" missing from the boost gameplay, and what have been missing in 3D Sonic games since Sonic Adventure.

Maybe only Sonic 2006 had a similar philosophy at times, but we don't talk about that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saber

YCoCg

Member
Apr 25, 2020
2,064
2,700
395
There's nothing wrong with the boost gameplay when the level design isn't shit, also it really benefits from higher framerates, give us a 240fps Sonic game!

 

EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Aug 18, 2017
9,916
7,103
895
Mount Olympus
www.neogaf.com
You can't get angry at sonic games it helps that they have never reached genesis levels of greatness

 

cireza

Member
Jun 1, 2014
8,047
6,564
700
Sonic Rush? Like, really?
Pff, this game is pathetic. A mix of bad level design, physics, story, etc.
Sonic games weren't bad named "boost to win"out of nothing.
Sonic Rush is awesome. It is a 2D game that evolved the formula, which is already quite something. Gameplay and level-design were actually very well done for a first game, with boost and tricks for scoring. Physics are perfectly fine and achieve the goal and vision of the developers for the game. Visuals are great. Soundtrack by the composer of Jet Set Radio is awesome. You can dislike the game for whatever reason, but it is a 2D Sonic game that worked, and worked quite well. Even the boss fights were very well done.

If you want classic Sonic, you have plenty of games available. Sonic Rush is something else.
 
Last edited:
Dec 25, 2018
3,881
3,755
770
Manchester, England
What do people think of Sonic and the Secret Rings?

It doesn't use Speed as the only tool and keeps a Linear path like Crash Bandicoot, and uses a Skill/Ability similar to RPGs do.

I need to go back to it but honestly didn't mind it and it had those Mario Party like minigames where you use the Wiimote in unique ways.

It is the forgotten Wii game after Colours which admittedly is my favourite 3D Sonic game.
 
Dec 12, 2018
1,161
1,311
420
For a new game I want either:
1) A new boost game, but this time they should actually try again.
2) Adventure-Style game, but modern and smooth. Get rid of most of the characters, stick to whats good.
3) Something new:
If they want to try something new, they should go for this.
Very momentum based reminicent of the classic games but in open 3D environments.
 

Saber

Member
Jan 30, 2019
3,812
3,503
660
Sonic Rush is awesome. It is a 2D game that evolved the formula

You can't expect me to believe one that have lame level design couple with terrible physics to be called evolved.

Gameplay and level-design were actually very well done for a first game, with boost and tricks for scoring.

Theres nothing special about doing those dumb tricks. I don't like Unleash, but even this game make tricks better by using button combinations. Also, they can only be done under certain parts of the game.
But Rush? Pff, it can be done at any spring and you can keep doing it endless like a retard.

Physics are perfectly fine and achieve the goal and vision of the developers

Nope. Dimps tried for years creating psychics and they pretty much failed in all their instances. No wonder Taxman was praised for Mania. He did a better work than those who failed for years.

If you want classic Sonic, you have plenty of games available. Sonic Rush is something else.

Classics is what makes Sonic a Sonic game, you can spit all you want but those trash games are nothing compared to classics, hence why they "tried" to mimic them and pretty much failed.
But again if you like those games go for it. I'm not against liking the game, but expecting me to say they're great is something else entirelly.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Fake

cireza

Member
Jun 1, 2014
8,047
6,564
700
I'm not against liking the game, but expecting me to say they're great is something else entirelly.
When I am cool with people liking something (which is 100% of the time actually), I don't spend time pouring out my hate about these things. I will state my opinion once, and let it go, because this is what it means not to be against people liking something I don't like.

I totally disagree with everything you said, but won't state again why I like these games and think they are good, I already did this.
 
Last edited:

Saber

Member
Jan 30, 2019
3,812
3,503
660
When I am cool with people liking something (which is 100% of the time actually), I don't spend time pouring out my hate about these things. I will state my opinion once, and let it go, because this is what it means not to be against people liking something I don't like.

I totally disagree with everything you said, but won't state again why I like these games and think they are good, I already did this.

Then I'm totally cool with it. Given reasons to why and explaining points is a different from "hating" though. But I'm glad you didn't take it personally.
 

cireza

Member
Jun 1, 2014
8,047
6,564
700
Then I'm totally cool with it. Given reasons to why and explaining points is a different from "hating" though. But I'm glad you didn't take it personally.
I suggest you revise your tone then, because you don't seem that cool in your arguments.

And Dimps never tried to mimic the old games with Rush, they made their own thing that has nothing in common with the old games. You are enforcing this comparison that does not make any sense.
 
Last edited:

Saber

Member
Jan 30, 2019
3,812
3,503
660
I suggest you revise your tone then, because you don't seem that cool in your arguments.

And Dimps never tried to mimic the old games with Rush, they made their own thing that has nothing in common with the old games. You are enforcing this comparison that does not make any sense.

My tone is perfectly fine though. Did it offend you? Not my intention.

Anyway, can't agree with that. Dimps for ages were responsible for doing Sonic games(Sonic Advance 3 being their last) and their physics differ very little. Unless you have some kind of proof that they didn't tried to mimic, I have no reason to believe in that. Its kinda weird how little they changed since their last Sonic game failure.
 

Discodriver32

Member
Jan 25, 2018
332
854
460
I'll believe it when i see it. Sonic Forces had been in development for a long time before its release and Well
 
Dec 12, 2018
1,161
1,311
420
No way Sonic Forces had more than 1 year of active development, despite Sega's initial claims.
Something must have gone horribly wrong during production, and I would love to know what has been scrapped.
Which is sorta interesting. Sonic 06' was developed under poor conditions. Probably started as a sequel to Sonic Adventure 2, but higher ups probably wanted a game for the 15th Annivesary and so they took what was playable enough and put it into the stores. And despite the lack of quality control I still see a passion behind Sonic 06'. Sonic Forces on the other hand may not as buggy and unfinished, but its sooo bland. I rather play a bad game thats full of bugs but unique, than a funcional but boring mediocre game.
 

Saber

Member
Jan 30, 2019
3,812
3,503
660
No way Sonic Forces had more than 1 year of active development, despite Sega's initial claims.
Something must have gone horribly wrong during production, and I would love to know what has been scrapped.

I think I remember they clarifing that they spent almost 3 years developing the new engime(which is basically an upgraded version of Hedgehog engime) while the rest was for Sonic Forces. Totalizating 4 years and something.
They lied terribly bad hence why they kinda remained in silence months later. Which tbh could be the result of pretty terrible selling.
 
Last edited:

Miles708

Member
Sep 11, 2019
1,263
1,625
415
Which is sorta interesting. Sonic 06' was developed under poor conditions. Probably started as a sequel to Sonic Adventure 2, but higher ups probably wanted a game for the 15th Annivesary and so they took what was playable enough and put it into the stores. And despite the lack of quality control I still see a passion behind Sonic 06'. Sonic Forces on the other hand may not as buggy and unfinished, but its sooo bland. I rather play a bad game thats full of bugs but unique, than a funcional but boring mediocre game.

If I remember well, they were quite proud the story in Sonic Forces was being developed internally in Japan (instead of outsourcing it again to western writers), which is funny, since it's so aggressively bland.

The best thing you can say about Sonic Forces is that it works, because it works, and it's even quite enjoyable. But it's also devoid of any glimmer of imagination or ambition whatsoever, and ultimately not worth anyone's time, sadly.

I think I remember they clarifing that they spent almost 3 years developing the new engime(which is basically an upgraded version of Hedgehog engime) while the rest was for Sonic Forces. Totalizating 4 years and something.
They lied terribly bad hence why they kinda remained in silence months later. Which tbh could be the result of pretty terrible selling.

That could actually make sense, developing a new engine is a nightmare. But they're using it for other projects too (like Sakura Wars) and it would be nice to see it used more.

Like in a Skies of Arcadia sequel.

Just sayin'.
 
Last edited: