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Seattle’s Minimum Wage Hike May Have Gone Too Far

Mr.Mike

Member
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/seattles-minimum-wage-hike-may-have-gone-too-far/amp/

As cities across the country pushed their minimum wages to untested heights in recent years, some economists began to ask: How high is too high?

Seattle, with its highest-in-the-country minimum wage, may have hit that limit.

In January 2016, Seattle’s minimum wage jumped from $11 an hour to $13 for large employers, the second big increase in less than a year. New research released Monday by a team of economists at the University of Washington suggests the wage hike may have come at a significant cost: The increase led to steep declines in employment for low-wage workers, and a drop in hours for those who kept their jobs. Crucially, the negative impact of lost jobs and hours more than offset the benefits of higher wages — on average, low-wage workers earned $125 per month less because of the higher wage, a small but significant decline.

...

Many economists, meanwhile, have acknowledged substantial uncertainty over the likely effects of the recent wage hikes. Most — though by no means all — past research has found that modest increases to the minimum wage have little impact on employment, and that if employers do eliminate jobs or cut back hours, those losses are dwarfed by the income gains enjoyed by the majority of workers who keep their jobs. But those studies were mostly based on minimum wages that were much lower than the ones beginning to take effect now. Even some liberal economists have expressed concern, often privately, that employers might respond differently to a minimum wage of $12 or $15, which would affect a far broader swath of workers than the part-time fast-food and retail employees who typically dominate the ranks of minimum-wage earners. Other economists said there simply wasn’t enough evidence to predict the impact of minimum wages that high. The new laws in Seattle and other cities, then, could provide an ideal testing ground.

...

Seattle’s minimum-wage ordinance was one of the earliest and most aggressive of the recent wave. In 2014, the city passed a law raising the city’s minimum wage — already among the nation’s highest, at more than $9 an hour — to $15 an hour over several years. Economists immediately saw the law as an opportunity to study the effects of an unusually high minimum wage, and the city of Seattle agreed to help fund a team of researchers to look into the policy’s impact.

The group’s first major report, released last year, looked at the first big increase under the law, in April 2015, in which the minimum wage went from $9.47 to $11 for large employers. The report found relatively little effect, for good or ill: The policy led to some lost jobs and hours, the report concluded, but those were more or less offset by the increased income enjoyed by workers. For workers who kept their jobs, the higher wage was a clear benefit; for low-wage workers as a whole, the impact was minimal. One reason for the muted impact: In high-cost Seattle, not many workers earned less than $11 an hour even before the law took effect.

Monday’s report looks at the impact of the second wage increase under the law: the January 2016 hike to $13 an hour for large employers. This time, the findings look very different: Compared to a counterfactual in which Seattle didn’t raise its minimum wage, the number of hours worked by low-wage workers (those earning less than $19 an hour) fell by 9.4 percent over the first nine months of 2016, and the number of low-wage jobs fell by 6.8 percent. Cumulatively, those add up to the losses of 5,000 jobs and 3.5 million hours of work. The average low-wage employee, they found, saw his or her monthly paycheck shrink by $125, or 6.6 percent.

The study is far from the last word on the impact of Seattle’s law, let alone the $15 minimum wage movement more generally. Indeed, just last week another study used similar methods to reach seemingly the opposite conclusion: A report from the Institute for Research on Labor and Employment at the University of California, Berkeley, found that Seattle’s minimum wage, “raises pay without costing jobs,” as a press release on the study announced.

The Berkeley study, however, looked exclusively at the restaurant industry. That has been a common practice in minimum-wage research, because the industry is one of the largest employers of low-wage workers. But the University of Washington study suggests a possible flaw in that approach: That research, too, found essentially no job losses in the restaurant sector as a result of the city’s minimum wage hike. That suggests that studies that focused on the restaurant industry might have missed larger effects in other sectors. (Michael Reich, one of the authors of the Berkeley study, said he was confident in his findings. Bernstein said focusing on restaurants, especially fast food, was a widely accepted approach that was well grounded in economic theory.)

The Washington study has one big advantage over most past research: The authors had access to detailed data on the hours and earnings of nearly all employees in Washington state, allowing them to measure the effects of the minimum wage much more directly than is possible with less complete datasets. But the study has its own weaknesses. Because the researchers had data only for Washington state, they had only a limited pool of places they could compare Seattle to — a key step for figuring out the effects of the minimum wage policy. (The Berkeley paper, by contrast, compared Seattle to similar communities across the country. )

The Washington researchers also had to exclude many multilocation businesses, which means their sample could leave out major low-wage employers such as fast-food chains. Reich, in a letter to Seattle’s mayor responding to the study, called the findings “not credible” in part because they differed so much from those of past research. But Jeffrey Clemens, an economist at the University of California, San Diego who has studied the minimum wage, said it isn’t surprising that Seattle’s minimum wage would have an unusually big impact because it is so much higher than most other minimums.

Even if the Washington study stands up to scrutiny — and it will get lots more scrutiny — it carries important caveats. Vigdor cautioned that the study makes no claims about individual workers: It is possible, for example, that workers who lost their jobs after the wage hike quickly found other jobs outside of Seattle, or that they made up for lost hours by driving for Uber. Neither shift would show up in the researchers’ data.

More behind the link.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
Higher minimum wages are good, but it can be too high. $15/hr is too high for almost everywhere, perhaps even for expensive Seattle (though perhaps not too high for San Fran). I'm not sure why the $15 number gets so much attention.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The upshot of all of this seems to be that gauging the effect of these hikes is very difficult. I'd want to see a study like the Washington one that was able to look at comparable data from other states
 
In all honesty its way way too early to tell the real effect of this change. Anyone trying to draw any real conclusions is naive.
 

Guevara

Member
Sure, raise wages and these companies will try to see if they can get by with fewer workers. Long term, we'll see.
 

kirblar

Member
Higher minimum wages are good, but it can be too high. $15/hr is too high for almost everywhere, perhaps even for expensive Seattle (though perhaps not too high for San Fran). I'm not sure why the $15 number gets so much attention.
Because "Fight for 15" is a union based marketing and advocacy program. They often have stuff in their contracts that makes minimum wage
increases directly cause pay raises for themselves.

This creates a problem where they will want the actual wage to go above the point where it maximizes value for actual min wage workers, because they're generally not min wage workers. (Do not take this as a union bashing post btw) Unions are good to have as a counterweight , but they still are self interested at the end of the day.
 

Theonik

Member
That study isn't looking at the whole story though, workers are looking at a small reduction in earnings on average for some industries but how many hours have they gained in the process. I think the reduction is less because there is a lower supply in labour opportunity, after all there is no reason to believe that higher wages would lower demand on labour that should be fixed by consumption. (employers hire as few people as they need for as little money as the market will allow)

One would argue that for some people, higher pay was not seen as an appealing prospect but being able to get by working less was. Consider a student for example. Upkeep costs can be low, and parents might assist, so they are working for extra spending money, but if they can work less, they can put more time to their degrees that is a better investment for their time. Further studies are needed.
 

TTOOLL

Member
Of course for some people here increasing minimum wage has no impact whatsoever in a business, be it small, medium or large. Just make it double and off we go!!
 
https://twitter.com/ben_zipperer/status/879353897365753857
Seattle study has serious problems: predicts upper-wage job gains where should be none, excludes all chains http://www.epi.org/publication/the-...s-new-analysis-of-seattles-minimum-wage-incr/

DDQydNhXgAE3bpO.jpg:small


DDQzyahXUAIOCkt.jpg:small

:thinking:
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
One would argue that for some people, higher pay was not seen as an appealing prospect but being able to get by working less was. Consider a student for example. Upkeep costs can be low, and parents might assist, so they are working for extra spending money, but if they can work less, they can put more time to their degrees that is a better investment for their time. Further studies are needed.
I was thinking about this, and I think this is true for some segment of workers, but without a truly robust social safety net anxiety around rent and utility payments makes trading a minor hit in wages for more free hours less desirable.
 

Maiden Voyage

Gold™ Member
Anyone trying to draw any real conclusions is naive.

I'm on neither side of this argument. It is worth noting:

The study is far from the last word on the impact of Seattle’s law, let alone the $15 minimum wage movement more generally. Indeed, just last week another study used similar methods to reach seemingly the opposite conclusion: A report from the Institute for Research on Labor and Employment at the University of California, Berkeley, found that Seattle’s minimum wage, “raises pay without costing jobs,” as a press release on the study announced.

Add in the fact that the study has not been peer-reviewed.
 
What makes you think it's just the corporations struggling with this?

Who cares?

If your workers cannot afford to live while you employ them then your business is not viable. Taxpayers are basically subsidizing low wage workers with welfare programs. Privatized profits but socialized costs are your thing?
 

ccbfan

Member
Sound like some CEO's from those large companies need to take a pay cut.

I don't think you understand how little CEO pays actually affect wages at the lowest level for large companies.

Take McDonalds for instance which have 375,000 employees. If the average employee works 20 hours a week.

For every million dollars less the CEO makes and goes to everyone else it increase the hourly rate of the employees by a quarter cent or 51 cents a week or $2.67 a year.

McDonalds CEO makes $15,355,746 so even if you completely remove his salary, you're talk about a 4 cent increase in salary.

Infinitely growing profits and shareholders? That's where the problem is.
 
I was thinking about this, and I think this is true for some segment of workers, but without a truly robust social safety net anxiety around rent and utility payments makes trading a minor hit in wages for more free hours less desirable.

Something to also consider is that long term hiking the minimum wage does little for those making only minimum wage. Price of goods and real estate will adjust to the new minimum and these people are back at the same position.
 

Zok310

Banned
Because "Fight for 15" is a union based marketing and advocacy program. They often have stuff in their contracts that makes minimum wage
increases directly cause pay raises for themselves.

This creates a problem where they will want the actual wage to go above the point where it maximizes value for actual min wage workers, because they're generally not min wage workers. (Do not take this as a union bashing post btw) Unions are good to have as a counterweight , but they still are self interested at the end of the day.

This is true, union collect a fee for every hour the employee they represent works. So the more they make per hour the more the union make per hour. Here in NY we just singed a CBA that sees employees that are already above min wage getting $0.85 per year upto 2020 new hires start at $0.50 above min wage and gets an additional $0.85 per year so basically $1.35 per year for new hires. Basically by 2020 we will have cashiers on site earning over $20/hour. The company owners have already placed in orders for automated stations directly cause of this. Unions can go overboard sometimes.
 

kirblar

Member
Who cares?

If your workers cannot afford to live while you employ them then your business is not viable. Taxpayers are basically subsidizing low wage workers with welfare programs. Privatized profits but socialized costs are your thing?
We SHOULD be subsidizing these people! UHC, Welfare/EITC/UBI (pick any/all) - privatized profits that are taxed and redistributed to society to help the public at large are exactly how a capitalist society should be working.
 

Sulik2

Member
I wonder how long it will take for the uptick in demand from more people having decent wages on products and services will take to go into effect as well. Those effects might be delayed for several years as the extra money goes towards paying off debt before it becomes spendable income.
 

Acyl

Member
Minimum wage hikes are good, large wage gap is bad. There will be growing pains as companies fight this.

Public companies' shareholders hate increasing employee salaries, it's so evil lol. There was one airline about a month back that dropped a few % in stock because they did a company-wide salary raise.

So the $15/hr will lower some companies' profits, and lower profits almost always mean a hit in stock value.

They are probably scrambling to make up the money somehow.

Drug companies in decades past, and even recently, have had periods of low profit, so they lay off 100s of employees so their report at the end of the year looks good for shareholders, despite long term consequences. This happens in a lot of industries.
 
We SHOULD be subsidizing these people! UHC, Welfare/EITC/UBI (pick any/all) - privatized profits that are taxed and redistributed to society to help the public at large are exactly how a capitalist society should be working.

Or we could maybe increase the minimum wage so that wealth doesn't grow increasingly concentrated in the hands of the few.

WalMart makes how much? WalMart employees costs taxpayers 6.2 BILLION (with a B) dollars in welfare. Why are we paying for WalMart's employees? WalMart can certainly afford to do so.
 
Who cares?

If your workers cannot afford to live while you employ them then your business is not viable. Taxpayers are basically subsidizing low wage workers with welfare programs. Privatized profits but socialized costs are your thing?

So just fire everyone and close up shop instead, problem solved! I'm sure those employees won't care.
 

Somnid

Member
Ironically, if true, the gig economy can be a boon here, or they have time to do other training, switch careers etc.
 
This is true, union collect a fee for every hour the employee they represent works. So the more they make per hour the more the union make per hour. Here in NY we just singed a CBA that sees employees that are already above min wage getting $0.85 per year upto 2020 new hires start at $0.50 above min wage and gets an additional $0.85 per year so basically $1.35 per year for new hires. Basically by 2020 we will have cashiers on site earning over $20/hour. The company owners have already placed in orders for automated stations directly cause of this. Unions can go overboard sometimes.

I'm sure automation would never have been used otherwise.

So just fire everyone and close up shop instead, problem solved! I'm sure those employees won't care.

Taxpayers are already paying for those employees basically.
 

-COOLIO-

The Everyman
This article doesn't seem to account for the money saved by reduced hours. I would be willing to bet it more than makes up for the 125 less.
 

Mr.Mike

Member

From the EPI response.

  • The employment responses estimated by the authors are well outside the bounds of most published research, and indeed all of the research cited by the authors implies much smaller and even no employment changes in response to wage increases similar to those experienced so far in Seattle. After accounting for Seattle’s much higher wage structure, the increase of the minimum wage to $13.00 in the city is within the range of increases that other research has found to have had little to no effect on employment.
  • The study implausibly finds employment changes due to the minimum wage in parts of the labor market where there should have be none. The study’s own estimates inaccurately imply the minimum wage caused large gains in the number of jobs paying above $19.00 per hour and in the number of hours worked in those jobs—even though those jobs are well above the wage range where the $13.00 minimum wage should be having measurable effects. These spurious results strongly suggest that the study’s methodology fails to account properly for the booming Seattle labor market during the period being studied—a labor market that has been shifting employment from lower-paid to higher-paid jobs.
  • The study excludes an important group of workers, representing roughly 40 percent of the workforce: those working for employers with businesses in multiple locations. By omitting all multi-location businesses, such as chains, in Seattle, the authors bias their results toward showing job loss if there has been a shift in employment from small, single-location establishments toward larger firms with multiple locations.

...

One reason the study may be finding strong employment gains well above any plausible range where the minimum wage could be having an effect on employment is that Seattle was experiencing a labor market boom at the same time the city was implementing the minimum wage increase. Because the researchers have not constructed a statistically valid control group, their methodology was not able to factor out this independent change in the local labor market, calling into question the reliability of their parallel findings for low-wage workers. An additional piece of evidence in support of this explanation is that the study does not find a “spike” in the number of hours worked at the new minimum wage. A smoother distribution of wages is exactly what we would expect if the shift away from lower-wage jobs is simply reflecting ongoing wage growth in the Seattle labor market that is independent of the minimum wage increase.

A second reason that the study may be biased toward finding job loss is that it excludes about 40 percent of total employment in the state, making it very difficult to draw meaningful conclusions about what actually happened to low-wage employment in Seattle. If multi-site employers captured the market share and—by extension—the employment that the authors believe was lost in single-site businesses, then overall employment in Seattle could have remained little changed after the wage increase, but the study’s methodology would still mistakenly estimate job losses in the city.
 

Zok310

Banned
I'm sure automation would never have been used otherwise.



Taxpayers are already paying for those employees basically.

Ohh it would have, I'm sure. There was no talks before this tho. This CBA pushed ownership to the breaking point, they decided to make drastic changes instantly. The worse part is they can afford to pay the cashiers this much, they just don't want to cut in their margins.
 
Minimum wage hikes usually have a negative effect in the short term but it gets sorted out and it's a wash in the medium and long term. Most economists agree with this and this was expected. It's just news because this is a high profile hike.
 

kirblar

Member
Or we could maybe increase the minimum wage so that wealth doesn't grow increasingly concentrated in the hands of the few.

WalMart makes how much? WalMart employees costs taxpayers 6.2 BILLION (with a B) dollars in welfare. Why are we paying for WalMart's employees? WalMart can certainly afford to do so.
The minimum wage only helps you if you have a job.

And no, job guarantees are not a good idea.

You fundamentally misunderstand what the Min wage does if you think it's a strong anti-poverty tool or an answer to wealth inequality.
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
purely speculation based on low wage workers are more likely to have multiple jobs. Id say its probably a net benefit if both of their jobs are paying them 15/hr than 7.25 or whatever it was before.

Not to say that they should have to work multiple jobs. Just probably likely that they are.
 
The minimum wage only helps you if you have a job.

Why don't we get rid of the minimum wage entirely? I'm sure more jobs would be born. Sure, nobody with those jobs could afford to live without taxpayer subsidies but oh well. Best have people do needless work.

The minimum wage only helps you if you have a job.

And no, job guarantees are not a good idea.

You fundamentally misunderstand what the Min wage does if you think it's a strong anti-poverty tool or an answer to wealth inequality.

You misunderstand the minimum wage if you do not believe it isn't supposed to be a living wage.
 
Or we could maybe increase the minimum wage so that wealth doesn't grow increasingly concentrated in the hands of the few.

alternately
or in conjunction so wealth inequality is actually addressed in a meaningful way
, we can dramatically increase the estate tax and do ten times the work
 

kirblar

Member
Why don't we get rid of the minimum wage entirely? I'm sure more jobs would be born. Sure, nobody with those jobs could afford to live without taxpayer subsidies but oh well. Best have people do needless work.
You are opposed to subsidizing poor people, many of whom are going to get reduced hours or moved to the permanently unemployed due to automation, but are perfectly ok w/ policies that raise the floor for what it requires to get a job.

If you get a UBI in place, you absolutely kill the minimum wage since at that point you don't actually need one w/ employees having extra innate negotiating power since their first marginal dollar starts at X+1 instead of 0+1.
You misunderstand the minimum wage if you do not believe it isn't supposed to be a living wage.
Should your wage change based on you having 1 kid, 0 kids, 5 kids? No. It shouldn't. That's why it shouldn't be a "living wage"! It's a worker protection against abuse.
 
Something to also consider is that long term hiking the minimum wage does little for those making only minimum wage. Price of goods and real estate will adjust to the new minimum and these people are back at the same position.

I'm pretty sure you cannot substantiate this claim, because this has historically not been true. People end up better off, even though prices of goods to adjust a bit.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
We SHOULD be subsidizing these people! UHC, Welfare/EITC/UBI (pick any/all) - privatized profits that are taxed and redistributed to society to help the public at large are exactly how a capitalist society should be working.

Absolutely not. Nobody working a full job should have to rely on government aid to avoid starving to death.

Companies that refuse to pay their employees enough money to survive need to be punished.
 

kirblar

Member
Absolutely not. Nobody working a full job should have to rely on government aid to avoid starving to death.

Companies that refuse to pay their employees enough money to survive need to be punished.
The American cult of work runs deep.
 
You are opposed to subsidizing poor people, many of whom are going to get reduced hours or moved to the permanently unemployed due to automation, but are perfectly ok w/ policies that raise the floor for what it requires to get a job.

If you get a UBI in place, you absolutely kill the minimum wage since at that point you don't actually need one w/ employees having extra innate negotiating power since their first marginal dollar starts at X+1 instead of 0+1.

Lol.

I'm not opposed to subsidizing poor people. I'm opposed to subsidizing corporations like WalMart or McDonalds that do not pay their fair share in tax and also do not pay a living wage despite their ability to do so.

McDonalds and WalMart grow wealthier as we pay for their fucking workers when there's no need for us to do so.
 

Theonik

Member
I was thinking about this, and I think this is true for some segment of workers, but without a truly robust social safety net anxiety around rent and utility payments makes trading a minor hit in wages for more free hours less desirable.
But free time can be used for extra work if need arises. Provided there are no other major issues with the study which there appears to be, there is evidence to suggest that a portion of the workforce is taking this approach. Food industry jobs seem unaffected notably, which implies a follow-up study taking into account demographics might be helpful in understanding the micro and macro-economic impacts of raising minimum wage.

Another explanation is that people earning closer to $19/h are now asked to accept a pay cut bringing them closer to the $15/h minimum wage. I find this even more outlandish as there is little reason to believe their market value would decrease because of a higher minimum wage. The contrary would be true if anything. (upwards pressure in wages across the board)
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Absolutely not. Nobody working a full job should have to rely on government aid to avoid starving to death.

Companies that refuse to pay their employees enough money to survive need to be punished.
Disagree. Its just like universal healthcare. Access to housing and food should be similarly universal regardless of employment. This isn't about "relying on government aid" it's about the larger picture of decoupling sustenance from employment
 

Lathentar

Looking for Pants
The American cult of work runs deep.

Seriously? The cult of having employers pay their employees a high enough salary so that if they work 40 hours a week they don't need public assistance? Its on the employers, they're the ones being subsidized. In some cases twice, where they under pay their staff then that same staff uses their assistance to push items at that company.
 
I'm pretty sure you cannot substantiate this claim, because this has historically not been true. People end up better off, even though prices of goods to adjust a bit.

I'm not saying its definitely going to happen, but an adjustment will occur and it'll most negatively effect the lower end of the earning spectrum. Time will tell for real though.
 

kirblar

Member
Why on earth would you want to trust a business over the government with:

a) People's Healthcare
b) People's first marginal dollars (aka the ones that are going to food, transportation and shelter)

Seriously, using your (bad) logic that this affects mainly "evil" MNCs- why would you trust an MNC with this for people over the government? It makes no sense! Their self-interests do not line up at all, and governments (generally) do not die, while businesses close and die all the time!

This concept that all businesses are evil MNCs is also complete nonsense - yes, they're large employers, but many local small/mid-size-/large businesses also exist. The idea that the "only reason" that people don't get paid more is because of evil CEOs is nonsense.
Seriously? The cult of having employers pay their employees a high enough salary so that if they work 40 hours a week they don't need public assistance?
Yes. The actual minimum wage is $0, because that is how much an employer is paying you if you don't have a job. Those are the people who I am most concerned about helping.
 
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