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Possible SSD tech behind PS5 and Scarlet

Here's the and Radeon SSG GPU, people might have forgot about but it's the first of its kind to show a glimpse of how the next gen SSD and GPU would work, and here's a read from PC GAMER about it!

LZ78Pna.png

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pcgamer.com/amp/amd-radeon-pro-ssg-pairs-vega-with-2tb-of-memory/
 

gundalf

Member
The SSD is lightyears slower than GDDR5, so the performance gain with bypassing PCIe would be like a drop in a bucket, still interesting tech though but probably not meant for realtime rendering like games.
 
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The SSD is lightyears slower than GDDR5, so the performance gain with bypassing PCIe would be like a drop in a bucket, still interesting tech though but probably not meant for realtime rendering like games.
Well your wrong because this is the only solution I've seen that's implemented directly to the GPU than any other solution, this is why they said they'll use the ssd as virtual ram, and besides any ssd is multitudes slower than vram so Ur explanation is pointless.
 
That's interesting. Is this a product for the server market? Because I for shit can't imagine QLC NAND having the endurance levels needed for next-gen game writes as a cache over 5-7 years before going bad, it simply doesn't have the endurance levels for it. And in terms of large-capacity NAND fit for consumer devices that's the only one available at affordable rates for a gaming console.

Unless, this Radeon product is using 3D Xpoint style NAND as a pseudo-DRAM, similar to what Intel's Optane Persistent Memory does. The thing with those, though, are the prices: they are definitely priced upward because server and telecommunications will pay the premium, but these products go for many hundreds to thousands of dollars. The Intel ones go for between $850 to over $2000 dollars depending on the GB capacity, which goes no higher than 256 GB (maybe 512, I haven't checked in a minute). I can only imagine this Radeon one (if it's actually using that kind of NAND) would be near $5,000 if not more.

Even if Sony and MS were to get them per GB at a heavily reduced cost, they are not putting anywhere near 2TB or even 1TB of it in their systems. You would be lucky to get 32GB's worth, honestly, unless they want to take a huge loss on each system sold. As a cache, 3D Xpoint would work much better than traditional NANDs over PCIe because the latency is much lower (about 300-350ns for Persistent Memory, currently), and it's page-addressable on reads / byte-addressable on writes like DRAM, so there's more versatility in that department over conventional NAND.

But it has to be one or the other; either the next-gen systems are using conventional NAND over a x4 PCIe 4.0 lane interface (8 GB/s), in which case the term "cache" is just being used relative to slower SSDs and HDD storage, or they are using something like 3D Xpoint NAND, which gives speed much faster than traditional NAND over storage interfaces but slower than DRAM, and at the prices Sony and MS would be able to get it per GB, they may actually be better off buying more GDDR6 tbh and building a high-quality 8 GB/s SSD interface with APIs devs can use to communicate with storage onboard at a lower level than on PC (if possible) and allow for user-swappable drives.

I mean, other than those options there's not much else Sony and MS can do to make their SSDs "revolutionary" storage devices since we already have examples of other NAND, DRAM, NVDIMM, MRAM etc. tech on the market and where those are currently at in terms of mass-market consumer device adoption. Sony and MS aren't making their own custom NAND-based memory from the ground-up xD.
 
Well your wrong because this is the only solution I've seen that's implemented directly to the GPU than any other solution, this is why they said they'll use the ssd as virtual ram, and besides any ssd is multitudes slower than vram so Ur explanation is pointless.

You wanna replace that SSD in six months after heavy usage xD? "Virtual RAM" could mean lots of things; SSD speeds are just generally fast enough now to where relate to processor and bandwidth speeds, they've scaled well to 'virtual RAM' being a good buzzword to kick around. But just like platter drives before them, consumer-grade SSDs with conventional NAND (TLC, QLC) can't handle the continuous workloads that VRAM can, especially when it comes to write operations.

Some dude downloading 10 100GB games a month and deleting them for 10 more games the next month is gonna start wearing out those P/E cycles (some QLC SSDs only have 1000 P/E cycle ratings...and that's for the really high-quality ones :/). Never mind saving videos, photos, internet cookies and cache storage, music, OS updates, autosaves etc. You don't need to even hit half the lifetime P/E cycles of QLC NAND before you start seeing overall slower performance from the drive, since conventional NAND cells wear down over time anyway.
 
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That's interesting. Is this a product for the server market? Because I for shit can't imagine QLC NAND having the endurance levels needed for next-gen game writes as a cache over 5-7 years before going bad, it simply doesn't have the endurance levels for it. And in terms of large-capacity NAND fit for consumer devices that's the only one available at affordable rates for a gaming console.

Unless, this Radeon product is using 3D Xpoint style NAND as a pseudo-DRAM, similar to what Intel's Optane Persistent Memory does. The thing with those, though, are the prices: they are definitely priced upward because server and telecommunications will pay the premium, but these products go for many hundreds to thousands of dollars. The Intel ones go for between $850 to over $2000 dollars depending on the GB capacity, which goes no higher than 256 GB (maybe 512, I haven't checked in a minute). I can only imagine this Radeon one (if it's actually using that kind of NAND) would be near $5,000 if not more.

Even if Sony and MS were to get them per GB at a heavily reduced cost, they are not putting anywhere near 2TB or even 1TB of it in their systems. You would be lucky to get 32GB's worth, honestly, unless they want to take a huge loss on each system sold. As a cache, 3D Xpoint would work much better than traditional NANDs over PCIe because the latency is much lower (about 300-350ns for Persistent Memory, currently), and it's page-addressable on reads / byte-addressable on writes like DRAM, so there's more versatility in that department over conventional NAND.

But it has to be one or the other; either the next-gen systems are using conventional NAND over a x4 PCIe 4.0 lane interface (8 GB/s), in which case the term "cache" is just being used relative to slower SSDs and HDD storage, or they are using something like 3D Xpoint NAND, which gives speed much faster than traditional NAND over storage interfaces but slower than DRAM, and at the prices Sony and MS would be able to get it per GB, they may actually be better off buying more GDDR6 tbh and building a high-quality 8 GB/s SSD interface with APIs devs can use to communicate with storage onboard at a lower level than on PC (if possible) and allow for user-swappable drives.

I mean, other than those options there's not much else Sony and MS can do to make their SSDs "revolutionary" storage devices since we already have examples of other NAND, DRAM, NVDIMM, MRAM etc. tech on the market and where those are currently at in terms of mass-market consumer device adoption. Sony and MS aren't making their own custom NAND-based memory from the ground-up xD.
All this sag tech is showing is how ps5 or Scarlett will implement it's ram, not saying ps5 will use tlc and but it'll use it's special ssd theyve said is faster than the retail available ones, and because both Sony and ms are going with AMD

I cant help but smell that this is the tech they are aiming to use since amd has done it before, I reckon it'll be 24gb of gddr6 + 128 of this SSD tech soldered to the GPU, and an external slower ssd for storage
 
You wanna replace that SSD in six months after heavy usage xD? "Virtual RAM" could mean lots of things; SSD speeds are just generally fast enough now to where relate to processor and bandwidth speeds, they've scaled well to 'virtual RAM' being a good buzzword to kick around. But just like platter drives before them, consumer-grade SSDs with conventional NAND (TLC, QLC) can't handle the continuous workloads that VRAM can, especially when it comes to write operations.

Some dude downloading 10 100GB games a month and deleting them for 10 more games the next month is gonna start wearing out those P/E cycles. Never mind saving videos, photos, internet cookies and cache storage, music, OS updates, autosaves etc. You don't need to even hit half the lifetime P/E cycles of QLC NAND before you start seeing overall slower performance from the drive, since conventional NAND cells wear down over time anyway.
There's different kinds of ssd and endurance nobody knows what type they'll use in the ps5 but since they keep saying it'll be the game changer next gen and since both Sony and ms make silcons from AMD I'm sure this is the tech they'll go with, I don't buy the ssd storage shit that sounds very casual it's not even a thing needing a discussion, even a PS4 can use ssd.
 
So to explain more easily, the SSD is going to be connected to the GPU, right?!
Exactly because just having a ssd as storage wasn't going to be a game changer and virtual ram as they say, this is the solution that they keep hiding about,. And AMD being their silicon maker I'm sure amd is using this tech behind ps5 and Scarlett and this time they'll use new ssd hardware and architectures, I can't imagine seems the future is bright!
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
I think it means it's not a traditional NVMe SSD + discrete PCIe GPU with no NAND. It's everything on the same PCB.

How do they connect the NAND controller with the GPU? Do they use some sort of custom/exotic bus? (i.e. FlexIO on Cell was much faster back in the day)

my guess is an independant controller is linking the gpu and SSD, while also having a connection to the PCIe channel for memory/cpu communication with the SSD. So like a bridge with two exit ramps/on ramps, one set going to the gpu, one set going to the normal pcie buss.

I wonder if we'll see this in the PC space soon after?
 

TeamGhobad

Banned
Uh, didn't Microsoft already announce their games will also be on the Xbox One (such as Halo Infinite)? That's going to be a hell of a lot more of a bog than a Lockhart.

hopefully their main games are nexgen exclusive i don't mind a transitional period of a year/18months but after that it should be nexgen from the ground up.
 
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Birdo

Banned
2TB as standard? I wonder how big next gen games are.

I'm guessing around 200GB, going by late-gen AAA games.
 
There's different kinds of ssd and endurance nobody knows what type they'll use in the ps5 but since they keep saying it'll be the game changer next gen and since both Sony and ms make silcons from AMD I'm sure this is the tech they'll go with, I don't buy the ssd storage shit that sounds very casual it's not even a thing needing a discussion, even a PS4 can use ssd.

AMD does not make their own NAND chips, they get them from other companies such as Micron and ISSI, etc. Or perhaps in this case, they are getting them from Intel (if they are using something like persistent memory).

A PS4 can use a SSD but the bandwidth is incredibly limited because PS4's connection interface is SATA II, even for SSD drives. That means maximum transfer rates for storage on base PS4 is about 300 MB/s...and it actually doesn't hit near those rates because the system was never designed with SSD storage in the first place. So, going from a SATA II interface delivering less than 300 MB/s in base PS4 to a possible customized NVMe-based interface delivering up to 8 GB/s in base PS5 is actually a HUGE speed increase, well more than 16x.


my guess is an independant controller is linking the gpu and SSD, while also having a connection to the PCIe channel for memory/cpu communication with the SSD. So like a bridge with two exit ramps/on ramps, one set going to the gpu, one set going to the normal pcie buss.

I wonder if we'll see this in the PC space soon after?

IIRC on PCs, PCIe for peripherals is actually slower than PCIe for GPU cards. At least, I know this is the case for most of Intel's processors; they have dedicated PCIe lanes for GPUs and somewhat slower PCIe lanes for storage and other non-GPU peripherals.

I think whatever Sony and MS are doing is probably related to the memory controller, as you and others have been saying. And I guess they could take an approach like this, I'm just curious how it would work. The type of controller you'd need for this would be almost like an MPU in itself, I'd reckon (but it'd have the role of a GPU to the CPU, like a co-processor).
 

psorcerer

Banned
Oh God. It's an APU, everything is connected to the same SoC. The PC card has an ssd controller connected to GPU. But it's not needed in a console case where everything is connected to GPU anyway.
The real question here: will Sony or MSFT use AMD flash controller or some other one. That's it.
 

psorcerer

Banned
AMD does not make their own NAND chips, they get them from other companies such as Micron and ISSI, etc. Or perhaps in this case, they are getting them from Intel (if they are using something like persistent memory).

A PS4 can use a SSD but the bandwidth is incredibly limited because PS4's connection interface is SATA II, even for SSD drives. That means maximum transfer rates for storage on base PS4 is about 300 MB/s...and it actually doesn't hit near those rates because the system was never designed with SSD storage in the first place. So, going from a SATA II interface delivering less than 300 MB/s in base PS4 to a possible customized NVMe-based interface delivering up to 8 GB/s in base PS5 is actually a HUGE speed increase, well more than 16x.




IIRC on PCs, PCIe for peripherals is actually slower than PCIe for GPU cards. At least, I know this is the case for most of Intel's processors; they have dedicated PCIe lanes for GPUs and somewhat slower PCIe lanes for storage and other non-GPU peripherals.

I think whatever Sony and MS are doing is probably related to the memory controller, as you and others have been saying. And I guess they could take an approach like this, I'm just curious how it would work. The type of controller you'd need for this would be almost like an MPU in itself, I'd reckon (but it'd have the role of a GPU to the CPU, like a co-processor).

All the endurance talk is moot if the pages will be writable by OS only. And marked read-only for games.
And it will be the case because filesystem will be mapped to the same pages anyway.
 
Oh God. It's an APU, everything is connected to the same SoC. The PC card has an ssd controller connected to GPU. But it's not needed in a console case where everything is connected to GPU anyway.
The real question here: will Sony or MSFT use AMD flash controller or some other one. That's it.
Exactly bro thanks for clearing it out I just can't cope with the noise they reply with!
 

psorcerer

Banned
Show_me_the_receipts.gif

It's the most probable solution. If AMD makes a SoC with a built-in flash controller it will be cheaper. The only case where they would want to go with a separate one is if AMD chip is not good enough. Which is also possible, for example: draws too much power.
 
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It's not a coincidence that both Sony and Microsoft are using AMD GPUs and CPUs for current and next gens architecture both using zen and rdna, and both talk about the ssd being a game changer more than anything and here we have a AMD technology so called SSG. It's not a coincidence mate! Mad to think otherwise.
 
This is a 250 billion polygons data set all loaded on the SSG card this is astonishing, impossible for any card on the consumer market even a 2080ti or titan cannot do this, if this is what next gen is capable of then it's absolutely incredible!
7nSGz0v.png
 

Ladioss

Member
Can't wait for game devs to not even bother any longer optimizing loading times because "crazy SSD tech".
 
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psorcerer

Banned
This is a 250 billion polygons data set all loaded on the SSG card this is astonishing, impossible for any card on the consumer market even a 2080ti or titan cannot do this, if this is what next gen is capable of then it's absolutely incredible!
7nSGz0v.png

It's probably 1-5fps only. You don't need more for modelling/previews.
 

Dontero

Banned
It is fascinating how uneducated people and garbage"tech"sites want to hype SSD for every wrong reason. It is blast processing 2.0

SSD is awesome but it won't change much when it comes to graphics generation. Its only job is to load and write data faster than HDD.

No you will still see loadings because games can't use directly data from SSD as it is way to slow.

Latency for graphics hardly matters.
 

Shrap

Member
Hang on. Wait a sec. Did you just say SSD tech? Seriously? When can consumers get our hands on this cutting edge new technology? This is blowing my mind right now.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
I hope it's improved because many of the console games I abandon now are simply due to load times (looking at you gta5)

Doesn't the PS4 use a 5400rpm hard drive over SATA 2? This is like 2006 level hard drive technology. Even the worst SSD known to man would provide massive speed bumps with regards to loading.
 
Hang on. Wait a sec. Did you just say SSD tech? Seriously? When can consumers get our hands on this cutting edge new technology? This is blowing my mind right now.
It's SSG solid state graphics it's actually vram! And according to this demo it's 2terabytes of VRAM so stop the retard reactions!
 
It is fascinating how uneducated people and garbage"tech"sites want to hype SSD for every wrong reason. It is blast processing 2.0

SSD is awesome but it won't change much when it comes to graphics generation. Its only job is to load and write data faster than HDD.

No you will still see loadings because games can't use directly data from SSD as it is way to slow.

Latency for graphics hardly matters.
It's SSG did you even read! It's not your typical ssd it's a ssd soldered directly to the GPU and it's accessible directly to the GPU it acts more like vram, and there's a demo of it showcasing a data set of 250 billion polygons on a scene this is an impossible feat for any consumer card out there!
 
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psorcerer

Banned
It is fascinating how uneducated people and garbage"tech"sites want to hype SSD for every wrong reason. It is blast processing 2.0

SSD is awesome but it won't change much when it comes to graphics generation. Its only job is to load and write data faster than HDD.

No you will still see loadings because games can't use directly data from SSD as it is way to slow.

Latency for graphics hardly matters.

What prevents AMD from using flash memory for texture data? It's read-only and is cached in tex store units for fast access anyway.
 
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