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[Mr Nash]

There's been some discussion of basic income here before, so figured I'd share this news article. The province of Ontario is planning a trial program to see what sort of impact basic income would have on its economy. It's still early in the planning process, so there aren't many details to go on, but it looks like it'll be happening. Bare in mind this is only going to be happening in Ontario, and not Canada-wide. Still, I'm curious to see how the program fairs.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...iversal-basic-income-experiment-a6916571.html

Ontario has announced it could soon be sending a monthly cheque to its residents as it plans to launch an experiment testing the basic income concept.

While officials in the Canadian province are yet to release any specific details of the project – including how much will be given to residents who participate – the finance ministry has published a report confirming the government’s intention to roll out the experiment.

The general concept of basic income involves a government handing out a flat-rate income to every single citizen within a country, either by replacing existing benefits or to top them up.

Proponents of the idea say it would save on welfare administration costs, reduce the poverty traps of traditional welfare states, be fair to people who have jobs, and give people more autonomy in general.

 

[Face it Tiger..]

socialism is rising

 

[Frustrated_me]

Ahh Quebec, forever left behind Ontario.

 

[Kinitari]

I imagine the initial trials will be to low income, poorly serviced communities in Ontario. Would be really great for people struggling, and I wonder if it would have a bigger impact in like... a poor suburb of Toronto (Scarborough) or maybe small town Ontario - like Blind River.

 

[ZackieChan]

airplane.png

What about Americans who move there on tourist visas?

 

[crimzonflame]

I imagine the initial trials will be to low income, poorly serviced communities in Ontario. Would be really great for people struggling, and I wonder if it would have a bigger impact in like... a poor suburb of Toronto (Scarborough) or maybe small town Ontario - like Blind River.

I live in Rexdale. Give me money.

 

[Cranster]

I hope this works out, I've been out of fulltime work and between jobs for 3 years now.

 

[ZeroGravity]

I hope this works out, I've been out of fulltime work and between jobs for 3 years now.

Same. Glad Ontario is leading the way on this.

 

[statuez]

SEND THAT

 

[Syf]

Feel free to spread that west, thanks

 

[Acorn]

Booking tickets to canada. You guys rule since that corrupt piece of shit neoconservative lost finally.

 

[Kieli]

Ontario is also offering free tuition to students.

Ontario stays winning. The rest of Canada can suck it.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Awesome! I think it's a good idea and I'd love to see more trials of it.

 

[entremet]

I'm curious of the real life ramifications of this.

Good to see a real world trial occurring. I hope an independent study tracks this very closely.

 

[Acorn]

Awesome! I think it's a good idea and I'd love to see more trials of it.

Crazy thing is right wingers used to be huge advocates of this pre reagan/thatcher.

Nixon almost did it ffs.

 

[Acorn]

I'm curious of the real life ramifications of this.

Hopefully the trial focuses on a poor area and my hope is the new guaranteed income spur regeneration and business creation.

Less risk is always good.

 

[entremet]

Crazy thing is right wingers used to be huge advocates of this pre reagan/thatcher.

Nixon almost did it ffs.

Nixon was a weird and complex man.

Started the EPA, got us off the gold standard, but obvious moral failings in terms of hunger for power.

 

[SilentMatthew]

I'm curious of the real life ramifications of this.

Well, hopefully the trial period will produce enough data to give a general idea on wider outcomes.
Beaten to the punch, damnit.

 

[Mr.Mike]

Crazy thing is right wingers used to be huge advocates of this pre reagan/thatcher.

Nixon almost did it ffs.

Hayek was all about negative income taxes I think.

 

[Acorn]

Nixon was a weird and complex man.

Started the EPA, got us off the gold standard, but obvious moral failings in terms of hunger for power.

I think if he wasn't such a immoral man he'd of been a good domestic president, with some notable thawing of relations with China and Russia that Reagan eventually hijacked.

Nixon was a brilliant man trapped in permanent chip on his shoulder with crazy paranoia.

 

[iamBlkpleAsedoNt]

I disagree with the idea of basic income, however I believe there should be a basic housing program which is not horrible and horribly managed. In my opinion keeping a roof over your head should not be a competitive enterprise, I feel the same about health care.

 

[M0nochromatic]

Ontario is also offering free tuition to students.

Ontario stays winning. The rest of Canada can suck it.

These concentrations of socialism are off the charts.

 

[diaspora]

Ontario is also offering free tuition to students.

Ontario stays winning. The rest of Canada can suck it.

Well, Ontario's doing it right because the tuition coverage and basic income aren't for everyone. They're for the people struggling in lower incomes and that's how it should be. Asserting that tuition should be for everyone regardless of income has always seemed gross to me.

Ontario is in a huge amount of debt. They're "a decade away from being like Greece", depending on who you ask. The provincial government is terrified of losing power, and dumping money into anything that might appease people.

Short of outright eliminating healthcare or education services there isn't anything that can be done to make any meaningful impact on the books.

 

[MotionBlue]

Ontario is also offering free tuition to students.

Ontario stays winning. The rest of Canada can suck it.

Ontario is in a huge amount of debt. They're "a decade away from being like Greece", depending on who you ask. The provincial government is terrified of losing power, and dumping money into anything that might appease people.

 

[Kurdel]

That's great! The State should be free to run these kinds of experiments to see what works or not without fear of being demonized politically.

 

[wandering goat]

Looking forward to this, always wondered how such a program would work. While I only took my required economics classes for my degree, I remember my professor was a proponent of this. I think they did a trial already in a small city somewhere in the prairies too.

Anyway, that's pretty neat. I thought the liberals' new child care benefit/payments would be kind of like a first step to testing such a concept, but the province has bigger plans.

 

[Savitar]

I love my country. Truly I do. <3

It's so weird how jaded was with Harper around but since Trudeau got elected it's like a whole new world.

 

[Acorn]

Hayek was all about negative income taxes I think.

Hayek and monetarist lot is Reagan and Thatcher.

Until then atleast in the UK social policies were always to the left from both parties post war until the demon dragon milk snatching cunt.

The right wing argument pre Thatcher Reagan focused on rolling up all benefits and just administering a guaranteed income would save govt money by not having huge departments checking everyone's eligibility for x y and z.

 

[Killer Queen]

Good things grow
In on-tar-io

 

[Jeels]

So how does this work economically? Do you tax people who make above the basic income more than they are now to subsidize people on the basic income? Not against that just trying to understand how future governments would sustain something like that.

 

[Mr.Mike]

So how does this work economically? Do you tax people who make above the basic income more than they are now to subsidize people on the basic income? Not against that just trying to understand how future governments would sustain something like that.

Pretty much. But also a lot of existing welfare programs would be cut and replaced by this.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

I love my country. Truly I do. <3

It's so weird how jaded was with Harper around but since Trudeau got elected it's like a whole new world.

This has nothing to do with Trudeau.

As for the topic at hand, I have a sneaking suspicion that the government's primary motivation behind this is cost-cutting. The liberal government has been trying to overhaul the delivery of our social services for that reason for years. The actual benefits paid out will likely be the same or less, but the savings would materialize in terms of less bureaucracy and administration costs.

 

[MotionBlue]

So how does this work economically? Do you tax people who make above the basic income more than they are now to subsidize people on the basic income? Not against that just trying to understand how future governments would sustain something like that.

As you say. Those in upper tax brackets would be taxed sufficiently to account for their extra income, and then some. This (theoretically) should unify social programs and eliminate bureaucracy, leading to more savings. It is an experiment, I'm sure other provinces will be watching very carefully.

 

[Mr.Mike]

This has nothing to do with Trudeau.

As for the topic at hand, I have a sneaking suspicion that the government's primary motivation behind this is cost-cutting. The liberal government has been trying to overhaul the delivery of our social services for that reason for years. The actual benefits paid out will likely be the same or less, but the savings would materialize in terms of less bureaucracy and administration costs.

This is good though. I definitely think that this idea that a basic income would be anywhere near enough to live off anytime soon is a bit too optimistic, although hopefully we can get there one day with economic growth and productivity gains. I don't really see it as some attempt at some socialist utopia so much as a move towards a bit of a transfer of wealth and a bit of a safety net.

 

[Mr Nash]

So how does this work economically? Do you tax people who make above the basic income more than they are now to subsidize people on the basic income? Not against that just trying to understand how future governments would sustain something like that.

As others have said, income tax and a streamlined bureaucracy would help with this. Since it's hoped that such a program would also provide an uptick in consumption, government coffers would get more money from sales tax as well, not to mention businesses would do better since people are shopping more.

 

[killer rin]

Ontario is also offering free tuition to students.

Ontario stays winning. The rest of Canada can suck it.

We'll drag the rest of the country down with us in this glorious hole of debt

Ontario is in a huge amount of debt. They're "a decade away from being like Greece", depending on who you ask. The provincial government is terrified of losing power, and dumping money into anything that might appease people.

I never understood the greece argument. I mean, unless the Federal Government was suicidal and wanted the whole country to collapse, they would be forced to take over any of the provinces debts last minute in exchange for some fun being puppet master for a couple years.

So how does this work economically? Do you tax people who make above the basic income more than they are now to subsidize people on the basic income? Not against that just trying to understand how future governments would sustain something like that.

Alright, so lets use $20,000 as an example number. By default everybody would get that $20,000. Then, any money they make is taxed at a flat rate at around 50% until they pay back the $20,000. Once that is paid back, then your taxes are reduced back down to the current progressive rates

 

[MotionBlue]

I never understood the greece argument. I mean, unless the Federal Government was suicidal and wanted the whole country to collapse, they would be forced to take over any of the provinces debts last minute in exchange for some fun being puppet master for a couple years.

Kind of like how Germany and the EU dictated the terms to Greece?

Greece just ignored them. That won't happen in this case, but the idea is runaway debt caused by chronic government mismanagement.

 

[Earthstrike]

Ontario is in a huge amount of debt. They're "a decade away from being like Greece", depending on who you ask. The provincial government is terrified of losing power, and dumping money into anything that might appease people.

Yeah sounds like pure stupid. That is to say, the idea that ontario is a decade away from greece.

 

[Hellraizah]

Alright, so lets use $20,000 as an example number. By default everybody would get that $20,000. Then, any money they make is taxed at a flat rate at around 50% until they pay back the $20,000. Once that is paid back, then your taxes are reduced back down to the current progressive rates

That... doesn't sound very good.

 

[Faenix1]

I wonder if this would replace the seemingly useless unemployment*. Employer seems to be able to easily BS you out of getting it, yet we seem to pay into it for some reason. Though not sure if I should be for or against this, there has to be a catch somewhere.

*That's in my experience, nothing ever seems to come easy for me.

 

[SRG01]

The idea that Ontario is somehow a decade away from Greece is laughable. Ontario has by far the largest economy in Canada. All the Western provinces combined barely surpass Ontario's GDP according to 2014 data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_gross_domestic_product

 

[Protein]

But none of this can ever happen in America because America.

 

[StudioTan]

So how does this work economically? Do you tax people who make above the basic income more than they are now to subsidize people on the basic income? Not against that just trying to understand how future governments would sustain something like that.

Keep in mind that everyone would get money, including the rich people.

The idea is that right now a lot of money is spent on social programs and the bureaucracy to run and maintain those programs, this would eliminate all those social programs like welfare with one that is simple so money is saved there.

It would help stimulate the economy since everyone would have extra money to spend.

It would actually spur many people to work because now you wouldn't lose welfare because you got a job, even part time. Any job money you earned would be extra, not a replacement.

It would encourage people to start businesses because you now have a safety net if our business fails. You don't lose your house if your business fails.

It would help reduce crime because there would be less need to turn to crime to support yourself. This would save money on police and the cost of health care.

This is all in theory obviously but there are many potential benefits.

 

[Mr Nash]

Keep in mind that everyone would get money, including the rich people.

The idea is that right now a lot of money is spent on social programs and the bureaucracy to run and maintain those programs, this would eliminate all those social programs like welfare with one that is simple so money is saved there.

It would help stimulate the economy since everyone would have extra money to spend.

It would actually spur many people to work because now you wouldn't lose welfare because you got a job, even part time. Any job money you earned would be extra, not a replacement.

It would encourage people to start businesses because you now have a safety net if our business fails. You don't lose your house if your business fails.

It would help reduce crime because there would be less need to turn to crime to support yourself. This would save money on police and the cost of health care.

This is all in theory obviously but there are many potential benefits.

I'd also add that such a program would hold companies to a higher level of accountability to ensure a good work environment. Places that didn't would experience far more turnover since employees could more readily leave a crap job without worrying about having the money to keep a roof over their head. So, hopefully it would encourage companies to be better employers as well.

 

[andythinkpad]

So how much are you getting per month anyway?

 

[GSG Flash]

Ontario is in a huge amount of debt. They're "a decade away from being like Greece", depending on who you ask. The provincial government is terrified of losing power, and dumping money into anything that might appease people.

No and anyone who says that is a moron. You do realize that the vast majority of Canada's wealth flows through Ontario, right? And that Ontario is also home to the seat of the government?

In fact, Ontario is the last province in Canada that would become another Greece.

 

[Mr Nash]

So how much are you getting per month anyway?

That hasn't been decided yet.

 

[obin_gam]

So it's a Citizen Wage in other words?

This sounds fantastic

 

[killer rin]

That... doesn't sound very good.

Well, there is also the Negative Income Tax method where you set a threshold (say $20,000), and if you make under that you get a top-up to bring you to the threshold, and if you make over that, you get nothing. Though this method is more of an expansion of social security instead of Basic Income.


That said, what sounds off about the method I posted earlier?

 

[Depths of Orion]

No and anyone who says that is a moron. You do realize that the vast majority of Canada's wealth flows through Ontario, right? And that Ontario is also home to the seat of the government?

In fact, Ontario is the last province in Canada that would become another Greece.

Yeah, I thought Quebec's growing debt problem was worse.