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[Men_in_Boxes]

Remember this thing? It came out in 1978.

Now look at the enemy behavior in these games...(time stamped for quickness)

There are soooo many single player games with core combat design that follow this formula. Circle strafe enemy, memorize attack patterns, wait for opening, attack. We've been doing this same pattern since the NES with Contra, Mario, Mega Man etc... It was everywhere on the SNES/Genesis. It didn't stop on the PS/N64. Filled to the brim on the PS2/XB/GC. Stuffed out the gills on the 360/PS3. When will the people rise up and say "Enough is enough!" Damn it people, memorization is not the pinnacle of game design! Enemy combatants should emulate intelligent enemies who can think, strategize, and react to you. They shouldn't all be Roombas with preset patterns that flail regardless of the situation. Are we all suffering from Stockholm syndrome? Why do we put up with this?!

 

[fart town usa]

What?!

Who doesn't love memorizing attack patterns? It's so rewarding when it comes to Souls games and shmups.

 

[Robb]

People seem to absolutely love stuff like Elden Ring, Dark Souls, Monster Hunter etc. which are all about memorizing and learning patterns though.

Even in multiplayer games that stuff seems popular. Going on raids in WoW were all about learning the bosses and knowing when to heal your group or aggro enemies etc.

 

[Aion002]

I love learning attack patterns.

 

[IDKFA]

"Enough is enough!" Damn it people, memorization is not the pinnacle of game design! Enemy combatants should emulate intelligent enemies who can think, strategize, and react to you. They shouldn't all be Roombas with preset patterns that flail regardless of the situation. Are we all suffering from Stockholm syndrome? Why do we put up with this?!

100% agree, and to be honest I've never really thought about it until now. Memorising attack patterns is boring and could be why I quickly lose interest in most games.

 

[Represent.]

Facts. And look at the responses in this thread.

People have become so used to it, brainwashed into thinking this is the only way to design a boss battle.

Strafe. Dodge. Hit. Repeat. Since the days of the fucking NES. Give me a break. You mean to tell me gen after gen, with all that technology advancement, you can't think of a single other design element for your boss encounters?

 

[fart town usa]

I will say, if more games had AI like FEAR, I'd be down for less pattern recognition.

Is FEAR still the standard? Just seems crazy, that game is nearly 20 years old .

Also, thread theme.

 

[Saber]

Learning attack pattern is better than those garbage GaaS game with random loot and random equips just to makes the numbers go high and drain enemy health meter faster.

Theres a satisfaction in learning. Getting better at it and improving is the reward. Theres nothing that compares to beating the enemy because of your own skills.
Also theres certain enemies in both Bloodborne and Elden Ring that can simply mess with your timing by either altering their combos mid way or respond to your healing itens(Crucible Knight is a prime example of that)

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

100% agree, and to be honest I've never really thought about it until now. Memorising attack patterns is boring and could be why I quickly lose interest in most games.

BTW, did the people who love this kind of game design enjoy playing with the SIMON toy as a kid? Genuinely curious.

 

[fart town usa]

Facts. And look at the responses in this thread.

People have become so used to it, brainwashed into thinking this is the only way to design a boss battle.

Strafe. Dodge. Hit. Repeat. Since the days of the fucking NES. Give me a break. You mean to tell me gen after gen, with all that technology advancement, you can't think of a single other design element for your boss encounters?

If you recall, Demon's Souls was such a breath of fresh air because gaming had turned into; take cover, wait for health to recharge. It was getting mindless during the PS3/360 gen and Fromsoftware went back and gave us something old but also something that works and is engaging. It's up to developers to find something equally or more engaging.

 

[Represent.]

Let the boss use my own attacks against me. Let him memorize *my* attacks. Let him adapt to *my* moves. No more "weak points". Let me just damage it naturally, enough patterns.


Study the art of Dragon Ball:

Let the boss adapt to my moves mid-battle. Utilize A.I in unique ways.

If it takes me 20 tries to beat a boss, it shouldn't be the same fight each time.


Show more battle damage. In real time.
Enough strafing.

We need a game that comes along and fucking revolutionizes boss battles. But nope, everyone just copying the same old formula. Zero ambition.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

FromSoft is moving away from this with cheap bullshit enemies that extend their combos on the fly thanks to infinite stamina, and people seem to appreciate it.

But have fun in the next few years with enemies with actually good AI that learn to nullify all your moves unless you defeat them first try by never using the same attack twice. Because this is how AI will be implemented by devs who don't know better.

Games are about pattern recognition. The fun is in learning the patterns, and getting good is all about counteracting patterns with the right moves.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

Let the boss use my own attacks against me. Let him memorize *my* attacks. Let him adapt to *my* moves. No more "weak points". Let me just damage it naturally, enough patterns.


Study the art of Dragon Ball:

Let the boss adapt to my moves mid-battle. Utilize A.I in unique ways.

If it takes me 20 tries to beat a boss, it shouldn't be the same fight each time.


Show more battle damage. In real time.
Enough strafing.

We need a game that comes along and fucking revolutionizes boss battles. But nope, everyone just copying the same old formula. Zero ambition.

If you want good AI so bad you should be playing multiplayer games exclusively.

 

[ProgenitorCastle]

Give me MORE memorizing attack pattern enemies and bosses. It's one of the main reasons I'm into Megaman games...boss fights that push you to learn their strategies to beat them. I will keep rising to the challenge every time

 

[MagnesD3]

Learning and Execution are litterally 2 core pillars that making gaming fun lol

 

[Last Hearth]

It's certainly a form of game play I'm no longer interested in, which is why I rarely play action games any more, and mostly play games with TB combat like Pathfinder, JA3, and the upcoming BG3.
But at one point these type of games were interesting to me and I'm sure they are people who likes these types of games.
When you find yourself no longer excited by a particular type of game, the answer is for you to move on to other types of games, of which there are plenty, not to complain that these types of games continue to be made.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Learning and Execution are litterally 2 core pillars that making gaming fun lol

Now consider what other core pillars may exist, that are not present in these games.

 

[Generic]

Yes, it's boring and the problem boils down to developers being unable to properly telegraph the enemies/bosses' attacks. So most of the time you get the foes spamming attacks that are impossible to predict during the first time they are used. Japanese hack 'n slashes are the biggest offenders on this.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Lmao, no. Would you prefer a gigantic bullet sponge that stays in place while attacking? Out of curiosity, what do you think is superior?

One of the biggest issues IMO is replayability and content.

 

[Guilty_AI]

You do realize there are more than one type of single player games right? BG3 in two weeks for example is turn based combat.

Enemy combatants should emulate intelligent enemies who can think, strategize, and react to you.

Understand a lot of people want mild levels of challenge. They don't want ultra smart enemies in a game they're playing to have fun and let off steam. The example of the Simon was actually very fitting precisely because it was a popular toy many people liked. We like following a rhythm, we find the idea of figuring out a pattern fun and engaging. Isn't that what matters in the end?

 

[cireza]

Curse of the Moon is one of the satisfying games I played recently and it works a lot on memorizing patterns. Memorizing attacks, level layouts and developing the skill to succeed a number of trials without dying offers a great sense of satisfaction. You can't win by luck.

If you don't like these types of games, then play something else that is more randomized, like a FPS or whatever.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Op think SP games = stamina-based action games.

I don't even...

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Lmao, no. Would you prefer a gigantic bullet sponge that stays in place while attacking? Out of curiosity, what do you think is superior?

Enemies behaving like intelligent beings is superior. These things are literally Roombas. Armored Core is set in the future with insane AI and crazy technology and all the enemies are still essentially...

 

[Punished Miku]

FromSoft is moving away from this with cheap bullshit enemies that extend their combos on the fly thanks to infinite stamina, and people seem to appreciate it.

But have fun in the next few years with enemies with actually good AI that learn to nullify all your moves unless you defeat them first try by never using the same attack twice. Because this is how AI will be implemented by devs who don't know better.

Games are about pattern recognition. The fun is in learning the patterns, and getting good is all about counteracting patterns with the right moves.

Well said. There is a reason some elements are a staple of gaming, and it's because that is just fair game design. Usually it is the crappy indie games that have insane levels of challenge that are unfair, and unpolished. Any amateur dev can make a game impossible, just look at Mario Maker levels people make. It actually takes a master designer to polish and balance a fight to the point that it feels fair, engaging, challenging, and fun all at once. It's far harder.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I mean, you’re right, but would you rather go back to mainstream gaming being Gears of War clones?

 

[Hudo]

I think it's alright if not done excessively.

 

[cireza]

FromSoft is moving away from this with cheap bullshit enemies that extend their combos on the fly thanks to infinite stamina, and people seem to appreciate it.

These helicopter attack bullshit have become beyond ridiculous in their games. Embarrassing. Simply look at games such as Ninja Gaiden, you have a perfect example of super demanding boss fights without have to resort to such stupid attack patterns.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Enemies behaving like intelligent beings is superior. These things are literally Roombas. Armored Core is set in the future with insane AI and crazy technology and all the enemies are still essentially...

Thats not how game design works. If we're really talking realistically here, chances of a man defeating a Hind alone are almost zero if the Hind operator was 'smart'.

The idea of smart enemies that always make efficient moves only work on level playing field, like a multiplayer match. It wouldn't work in the kind of scenarios we see in singleplayer games, where lone soldiers can defeat giant robots.

 

[Alebrije]

Just imagine a Boss with AI that changes attacks and defence depending of your behavior and enviroment.....would be nuts

Now imagine it is a FF16 boss.
Your PS5 would end like this after 2 hours trying to defeat it :

 

[Fredrik]

I like it.

Favorite modern boss fights. Metroid Dread. It’s 100% about memorization. It’s so satisfying when you know a counter move to anything the boss throw at you.

Solving the rubik’s cube is also about memorizing patterns and have a counter move to any situation. And chess.

But for shmups I prefer games that is about having fast reflexes and memorization rather than bullet hell shmups where you’re just crawling through a slow moving maze of bullet clouds, I hate that nonsense, feels like playing snake on a Nokia phone. Original Raiden, Truxton, C64 IO is where the good stuff is found.

 

[GetInTheRobot]

Fights IRL is about pattern recognition as well, if you watch UFC or boxing they utilized a set list of attacks which is only differentiated by a fighters temperament and skill level with those attack. A lot of it comes down to circling and looking for opening and countering. Unless the core rules of combat change this probably won't change much in gaming either. I'm just happy we got away from the glowing "hit here" style of combat for the most part. Imagine if Melanias helmet glowed for you to hit it off before you could damage her head...terrible.

 

[tommycronin]

Name a better alternative

 

[The artful mincer]

Remember this thing? It came out in 1978.

Now look at the enemy behavior in these games...(time stamped for quickness)

There are soooo many single player games with core combat design that follow this formula. Circle strafe enemy, memorize attack patterns, wait for opening, attack. We've been doing this same pattern since the NES with Contra, Mario, Mega Man etc... It was everywhere on the SNES/Genesis. It didn't stop on the PS/N64. Filled to the brim on the PS2/XB/GC. Stuffed out the gills on the 360/PS3. When will the people rise up and say "Enough is enough!" Damn it people, memorization is not the pinnacle of game design! Enemy combatants should emulate intelligent enemies who can think, strategize, and react to you. They shouldn't all be Roombas with preset patterns that flail regardless of the situation. Are we all suffering from Stockholm syndrome? Why do we put up with this?!

I think for fast pace gameplay we have to have it to some degree.

I remember the Ghost of Tsushima devs saying humans can only react so fast but when we know what's coming we can play faster and parry etc.

 

[MagnesD3]

Now consider what other core pillars may exist, that are not present in these games.

Ugh nothing basically in Elden Ring. Intricate puzzle design, I guess lol.

 

[Calling 911 Melts Beams]

my main problem with single player games is tthe lack of gacha mechanics

i wish more games had monthly battle passes

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Name a better alternative

In Zelda, Elden Ring, and Armored Core, you're essentially running around a wide open world with Roombas scattered throughout. Your goal is to get from point A to point B while defeating different Roombas.

Imagine a fantasy world like Zelda, Elden Ring, or Armored Core, where the problems you face, the enemies you encounter, act less like Roombas and more like sentient beings. Wouldn't that make for a more interesting fantasy to step into? Perhaps then, the games could give you more interesting choices other than "Run up to that Roomba, memorize its pattern, and hit it until health bar go boom."

 

[Fredrik]

I'm just happy we got away from the glowing "hit here" style of combat for the most part. Imagine if Melanias helmet glowed for you to hit it off before you could damage her head...terrible.

Nah I like that.
Weakpoints and seeing armour plates flash from every bullet in a shmup when you mash the button like crazy on an arcade machine and then seeing stuff come off is so very satisfying

 

[Punished Miku]

Nah I like that.
Weakpoints and seeing armour plates flash from every bullet in a shmup when you mash the button like crazy on an arcade machine and then seeing stuff come off is so very satisfying

It's okay for games to be games. In most games you know the rules and try to overcome the challenge.

A lot of people want cheap shots all day apparently.

 

[Danjin44]

I disagree, I like memorizing enemies attack pattern and find way response to their attacks. One of my playthrough of Elden Ring I fought Godskin Apostle in one of the tower to activate Radahn's great ruin.
This guys hits hard and can destroy your stamina if you try to guard against it, so I decided to change tactic and carefully look at his animation and attack to see which I can parry and after few tries I managed to beat him by parry his attack and felt soooooo rewarding.

where the problems you face, the enemies you encounter, act less like Roombas and more like sentient beings

It seems what you want is multiplayer.

 

[Fuz]

my main problem with single player games is tthe lack of gacha mechanics

i wish more games had monthly battle passes

Shut up.

They'll hear you.

 

[Generic]

I mean, you’re right, but would you rather go back to mainstream gaming being Gears of War clones?

Gears of Wars multiplayer was much better and more complex than memorizing poorly telegraphed attacks from AI enemies.

 

[Wildebeest]

Ugh. I had people tell me that things like stamina bars and memorising attack patterns were dead game mechanics that nobody liked and would never come back, years before Demons' Souls came out. People always do be having opinions.

 

[semiconscious]

'float like a butterfly, sting like a bee':

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

It seems what you want is multiplayer.

I actually just want to see things improve.

I know you single player gamers love movies. Imagine watching The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe. The main characters step through the closet and all the dangerous enemies in Narnia just stay stationary, wait for the main characters to run up to them, and then engage Roomba mode. It would be the worlds worst movie.

Why isn't this acceptable in film, but it's acceptable in games? Riddle me that, Danjin44!

 

[Represent.]

Name a better alternative

You really dont think a room full of 20 creative minds cant sit for weeks and months and come up with a better alternative? I just did it in a post above, took me literally 35 seconds.

There is an AMBITION issue industry wide. They have the ideas, they don't execute them.

And everyone is so fucking easily impressed nowadays by the same basic design so they have no reason to improve anything. Start complaining more.

 

[Danjin44]

I actually just want to see things improve.

I know you single player gamers love movies. Imagine watching The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe. The main characters step through the closet and all the dangerous enemies in Narnia just stay stationary, wait for the main characters to run up to them, and then engage Roomba mode. It would be the worlds worst movie.

Why isn't this acceptable in film, but it's acceptable in games?

I dont know how the fuck fighting bosses in Elden Ring makes it "movie" what the fuck am I reading here?

 

[Fbh]

Nah I love that stuff and I'll probably never tire of it as long as it's well designed.
I disagree it's just about memorization, it's also about staying focused and reacting in time and learning how to avoid and/or counter enemy moves.
In most well designed games enemies tend to telegraph the majority of their attacks well enough that you can usually react to most of them even if it's your first time fighting them. In the average FROM game I usually manage to kill a third of the bosses on my first try, another third I manage to damage 40-50% before they kill me (those usually require 5-6 tries to kill) and only the final third require some heavier time investment. That should be impossible if there was nothing else to it aside from memorization.

The whole argument about wanting super smart AI that dynamically adjusts to the player is the sort of thing that, IMO, sounds good on paper but wouldn't be fun to play

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I dont know how the fuck fighting bosses in Elden Ring "movie" what the fuck am I reading here?

The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe is a fantasy world where good avatars must defeat the great evil power in Narnia.

You don't see how that resembles Elden Ring?

Are we having a conversation or not?! Come on, let's go! Wake up!

 

[Danjin44]

The whole argument about wanting super smart AI that dynamically adjusts to the player is the sort of thing that, IMO, sounds good on paper but wouldn't be fun to play

Exactly and bosses does react based on your movement, for example Margit will bring his staff upwards to swing and if you are close to him he would just swing at you normally but if try to get far from him before swing he will rush at you with double swing.

Edit: Also that Godskin Apostle will use his black fire ball every time I try to heal, EVERY TIME, so they do react to your actions.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The whole argument about wanting super smart AI that dynamically adjusts to the player is the sort of thing that, IMO, sounds good on paper but wouldn't be fun to play

People actually aren't saying this.

There is a lot of space between Roomba level AI and IBM's Deep Blue.

What we're saying is maybe there's more interesting, unique, and fun AI behavior than the Roomba/SIMON toy we see in the video's in the OP.