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[Hugare]

It's not even assumptions, they're working off simple logical inference.

Q: How can Yuzu team even make TOTK (and other games) work day 1 when there's no legal way to access the materials to test beforehand? A: By downloading illegal roms themselves.

There are rumors (not included in the Nintendo document) that Yuzu had a Google Drive's worth of pirated ROMs to use for testing.

Many games work on emulators Day One due to optimizations already done to the emulator. It's the case with many games. They already had BOTW to work with for years, using the same engine as TOTK. So its not a stretch that there wasnt needed much to make TOTK run ok from day one, if any at all. Mario Wonder worked perfectly out of the gate too.

A very well developed emulator will work with basically any games 'cause well, its emulating the system well.

Nintendo has no case here. They will just bully Yuzu team out of the scene with lawyer fees.

 

[Astray]

Many games work on emulators Day One due to optimizations already done to the emulator. It's the case with many games. They already had BOTW to work with for years, using the same engine as TOTK. So its not a stretch that there wasnt needed much to make TOTK run ok from day one, if any at all. Mario Wonder worked perfectly out of the gate too.

A very well developed emulator will work with basically any games 'cause well, its emulating the system well.

Nintendo has no case here. They will just bully Yuzu team out of the scene with lawyer fees.

Except Mario Wonder also leaked before street date (there are torrents that were uploaded almost a week before October 20th (which was the launch date). A cursory glance at any torrent site will tell you this.

There are a lot of new mechanics in TOTK that simply weren't in BOTW and there was no way to know them in advance and optimize for them except for getting their hands on an illegally-leaked build.

Know the facts before you speak with such confidence. You are defending the dumbass team that could end emulation as we know it.

 

[Hugare]

Except Mario Wonder also leaked before street date (there are torrents that were uploaded almost a week before October 20th (which was the launch date). A cursory glance at any torrent site will tell you this.

There are a lot of new mechanics in TOTK that simply weren't in BOTW and there was no way to know them in advance and optimize for them except for getting their hands on an illegally-leaked build.

Know the facts before you speak with such confidence. You are defending the dumbass team that could end emulation as we know it.

Know the facts yourself. You are proving that you know shit about how emulation works.

Ignoring the fact that pretty much every Nintendo game gets leaked at least a week before launch, devs dont need to have the game in order for it to work day one.

As I mentioned before, a game can be played at day one on an emulator because the emulator may be already developed enough in order to achieve what it takes to run that specific game.

Yuzu can run something like Mario Kart 8 at full speed or RDR, but may not be able to run some simple 2D game simply because the emulator may not have yet an specific instruction needed for that game to run

There were new mechanics in TOTK that you and I know shit about HOW they were worked on. But they may have repurposed many of the features that were already there in engine. They even played like much of the mechanics that were already there in BOTW, just evolved some more.

You are defending the dumbass team that could end emulation as we know it.

Nintendo? 'Cause they are the ones threatening emulation. You are clueless.

 

[Toons]

According to the emulation reddit, from users who are reading the lawsuit and taking it apart, the language Nintendo uses "assumes that if a company sets rules around how users use their products, those rules are the law".

This goes beyond Yuzu. It even goes beyond just emulation. It reaches software and intellectual property in general. So think about it before defending Nintendo in this. They don't do this because they want to "FiGHt PirACy". They do this because they want control. That's the ultimate goal for everything every publisher does.

Should they.... not be able to control how their product is distributed?

Nintendo isn't a charity foundation people.

 

[Thaedolus]

Should they.... not be able to control how their product is distributed?

Nintendo isn't a charity foundation people.

Nintendo should be able to control how their products are distributed, however, once they’re distributed, they shouldn’t have a say in what happens.

It’s unfortunate their distribution channels allow leaks before release dates, for example. But if someone gives them money for their software then runs that software on something other than official hardware, who gives a shit? Who is damaged by that? Nobody.

Sure, if someone is pirating software, that harms the developer. But that’s hardly an emulation only problem when their own hardware is cracked wide open for piracy. They should go after whoever’s leaking their games early in the supply chain first IMO.

 

[genesisblock]

Good. People should stop being poor and actually buy their games (Let's be real, no one actually rips their own games from a legally purchased copy. No one buys that bullshit excuse sorry)

Oh really? So those iso files that are online are clearly built from source code??

 

[Mister Wolf]

Best for Nintendo to sink them before the Switch 2. Surprised it took so long.

 

[Deft Beck]

Disgusting of Nintendo to go after emulators again, but even if they win, there's no real way to enforce or persecute individuals for using emulators of their legal copies of games.

 

[THE DUCK]

Sort of understand why they might not like these emulators, but maybe this is a another reason not to run on 2016 hardware in 2024.
People talk about it bring a "current gen" product, but it's running on a dinosaur at this point. Plus there's huge benefit in running these games upscaled that have zero to do with piracy. Really massive upgrades here.

Nintendo, make it irrelevant, release a modern console that plays these games on 2024 hardware. (In addition to switch 2)

Also agree that you can't call every downloaded version as a lost sale, it's probably more like 5% of the million zeldas.

 

[BlackTron]

This is always a daft take. It doesn't matter how many times something has been downloaded, high chances are that pirates were never going to buy it anyways.. so its all moot point. I guess Nintendo want to scare off emulation developers before the launch of the Switch 2.

I downloaded TotK a week or two before it came out, but I still bought it on launch day. So the truth is, Nintendo only lost 999,999 sales to the devil's emulator, not one million.

 

[Astray]

Good article that details the emulation scene's reaction to the lawsuit.

Emulation community expresses defiance in wake of Nintendo’s Yuzu lawsuit

"EmuDev" coders cite precautions, legal differences they say will offer protection.

arstechnica.com

 

[RaduN]

Strange that Nintendo doesn't go after EggNS and 4pda. I mean, they actually provide the keys and use stolen code, not just casually talk about it.

 

[Maestr0]

I don't believe that the yuzu case will go as well as before, times are different and lots of things have changed, I'm keeping an eye on it, but I have a lot of mixed feelings right now when it concerns emulation

 

[lh032]

Oh really? So those iso files that are online are clearly built from source code??

Just because theres rom or iso online, doesnt mean everybody doing that

 

[bender]

Nintendo, make it irrelevant, release a modern console that plays these games on 2024 hardware. (In addition to switch 2)

The benefits of running on modest hardware far outweigh any potential lost sales due to their system being easy to emulate.

 

[THE DUCK]

The benefits of running on modest hardware far outweigh any potential lost sales due to their system being easy to emulate.

I suppose that's true, as long as customers are willing to accept the downgrade. I don't think it's going to be nearly as easy on.the mobile front this time around, they will likely be facing a second gen steam deck (ok third), an xbox portable, and maybe even a sony model as well.

Meanwhile, they have abandoned the "traditional" cutting edge console model that they had great success with in some generations. Some would say leaving some cash on the table. I think with architecture being so similar, they could launch a two pronged attack this generation. (Portable and traditional, all games day and date for both, so no development split like prior portables/consoles they had)
Though I doubt it will happen.

 

[bender]

I suppose that's true, as long as customers are willing to accept the downgrade. I don't think it's going to be nearly as easy on.the mobile front this time around, they will likely be facing a second gen steam deck (ok third), an xbox portable, and maybe even a sony model as well.

Meanwhile, they have abandoned the "traditional" cutting edge console model that they had great success with in some generations. Some would say leaving some cash on the table. I think with architecture being so similar, they could launch a two pronged attack this generation. (Portable and traditional, all games day and date for both, so no development split like prior portables/consoles they had)
Though I doubt it will happen.

It's not about accepting a "downgrade". There are limitations to what you can accomplish with a ~15W device, especially if you want to make it affordable. The Deck isn't competition. it's sold less than 5M units worldwide and that's a generous estimation. An Xbox portable wouldn't be competition. I'd almost write Sony off as well but they did have success with the PSP (launched in 2005) and the new PSP (Portal) seems to have steady demand.

The last successful ""traditional" cutting edge console" they had was the SNES (launched in 1990). I'd argue chasing power is foolish as they'd find themselves in the same pitfalls as their competition. I'd further argue the further they fall behind the power curve, the better as it will help them keep development costs in check. I don't think a two pronged approach is going to happen either as I don't think they want to confuse the market. They certainly don't want a repeat of the Wii-U.

I do think the Switch successor is going to have a hard time keeping pace with the Switch but that's mostly due to the benefits the Switch saw during a global pandemic.

 

[THE DUCK]

It's not about accepting a "downgrade". There are limitations to what you can accomplish with a ~15W device, especially if you want to make it affordable. The Deck isn't competition. it's sold less than 5M units worldwide and that's a generous estimation. An Xbox portable wouldn't be competition. I'd almost write Sony off as well but they did have success with the PSP (launched in 2005) and the new PSP (Portal) seems to have steady demand.

The last successful ""traditional" cutting edge console" they had was the SNES (launched in 1990). I'd argue chasing power is foolish as they'd find themselves in the same pitfalls as their competition. I'd further argue the further they fall behind the power curve, the better as it will help them keep development costs in check. I don't think a two pronged approach is going to happen either as I don't think they want to confuse the market. They certainly don't want a repeat of the Wii-U.

I do think the Switch successor is going to have a hard time keeping pace with the Switch but that's mostly due to the benefits the Switch saw during a global pandemic.

Agreed the deck hasn't done a ton so far but all with almost no advertising, no retail presence, and an initial product that was so-so. (Oled is much better)

An xbox portable wouldn't sell 50 million bit priced right could sell 25 million. If Sony joined in they could sell 30-40 million. A revised steam deck could sell another 5- 10 million. All of these would take from nintendos pie if they only have switch 2.

The gamecube would prob be Nintendo's last cutting edge unit, or at least comparative with that gen. Wii u was a greedy grab at a gimmick that backfired, it could have had proper hardware in it.

The reason the switch sold so well wasn't the pandemic, (sure it helped) but it was already doing amazingly well. The reason it sold so well is it was the only portable sold by a gaming company at a decent price, and was supported by aaa titles. The hybrid nature was a boost as well, helped justify the purchase.

But all future handhelds will be hybrid, so that will be lost as an exclusive.

Guess we will see if anyone is interested in switch 2 besides us diehards here. I think a ton of switch buyers who are casual won't care if it's a modest upgrade only, and Nintendo is at more risk than you might think. History shows us previous gen is definately no guarantee of anything.

 

[THE DUCK]

It's not about accepting a "downgrade". There are limitations to what you can accomplish with a ~15W device, especially if you want to make it affordable. The Deck isn't competition. it's sold less than 5M units worldwide and that's a generous estimation. An Xbox portable wouldn't be competition. I'd almost write Sony off as well but they did have success with the PSP (launched in 2005) and the new PSP (Portal) seems to have steady demand.

The last successful ""traditional" cutting edge console" they had was the SNES (launched in 1990). I'd argue chasing power is foolish as they'd find themselves in the same pitfalls as their competition. I'd further argue the further they fall behind the power curve, the better as it will help them keep development costs in check. I don't think a two pronged approach is going to happen either as I don't think they want to confuse the market. They certainly don't want a repeat of the Wii-U.

I do think the Switch successor is going to have a hard time keeping pace with the Switch but that's mostly due to the benefits the Switch saw during a global pandemic.

Agreed the deck hasn't done a ton so far but all with almost no advertising, no retail presence, and an initial product that was so-so. (Oled is much better)

An xbox portable wouldn't sell 50 million bit priced right could sell 25 million. If Sony joined in they could sell 30-40 million. A revised steam deck could sell another 5- 10 million. All of these would take from nintendos pie if they only have switch 2.

The gamecube would prob be Nintendo's last cutting edge unit, or at least comparative with that gen. Wii u was a greedy grab at a gimmick that backfired, it could have had proper hardware in it.

The reason the switch sold so well wasn't the pandemic, (sure it helped) but it was already doing amazingly well. The reason it sold so well is it was the only portable sold by a gaming company at a decent price, and was supported by aaa titles. The hybrid nature was a boost as well, helped justify the purchase.

But all future handhelds will be hybrid, so that will be lost.

Guess we will see if anyone is interested in switch 2 besides us diehards here. We will all buy it day 1. But I think a ton of switch buyers who are very casual won't care if it's a modest upgrade only, and Nintendo is at more risk than you might think. History shows us previous gen is definately no guarantee of anythjng.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

So much hate for Yuzu. Thanks to their Patreon support you don't need to wait 15 years for the emulator to be good like what happened with PS2 emulation.

Volunteers are nice and all but they work slow.

 

[bender]

Agreed the deck hasn't done a ton so far but all with almost no advertising, no retail presence, and an initial product that was so-so. (Oled is much better)

An xbox portable wouldn't sell 50 million bit priced right could sell 25 million. If Sony joined in they could sell 30-40 million. A revised steam deck could sell another 5- 10 million. All of these would take from nintendos pie if they only have switch 2.

The gamecube would prob be Nintendo's last cutting edge unit, or at least comparative with that gen. Wii u was a greedy grab at a gimmick that backfired, it could have had proper hardware in it.

The reason the switch sold so well wasn't the pandemic, (sure it helped) but it was already doing amazingly well. The reason it sold so well is it was the only portable sold by a gaming company at a decent price, and was supported by aaa titles. The hybrid nature was a boost as well, helped justify the purchase.

But all future handhelds will be hybrid, so that will be lost.

Guess we will see if anyone is interested in switch 2 besides us diehards here. We will all buy it day 1. But I think a ton of switch buyers who are very casual won't care if it's a modest upgrade only, and Nintendo is at more risk than you might think. History shows us previous gen is definately no guarantee of anythjng.

I bought a Deck and Deck OLED. It's a great little device. It isn't competition.

I don't think an Xbox portable would get near to 20M. Ditto for a would-be Sony portable. And even if your numbers come to fruition, they wouldn't take away from the Nintendo's pie. The Wii topped 100M during the most successful Xbox generation (~85M)and while the PS3 was down by Sony standards, it still sold ~87M units. It just shows when Nintendo carves their own lane, they tend to do better then when they are chasing trends (Wii U being the most recent failure).

The Gamecube wasn't a success. It went neck-and-neck with the OG Xbox and both of those were outsold by the PS2 nearly 8:1.

I didn't say the Switch's success was due to the pandemic, but I do think it having people stuck at home for over a year gave it a shot in the arm and that type of bump isn't likely to happen again.

 

[nkarafo]

So much hate for Yuzu. Thanks to their Patreon support you don't need to wait 15 years for the emulator to be good like what happened with PS2 emulation.

A lot of emulators have their development sped up thanks to Patreon, donations or bounties. It's not a new or bad thing. But because Yuzu emulates a more recent system it "looks bad" in the eyes of some.

 

[genesisblock]

Just because theres rom or iso online, doesnt mean everybody doing that

The original quote was that nobody rips the games from a legally purchased copy. That is an absolute statement which is proven to be nonsense not whether every copy is dumped by everyone.

 

[buenoblue]

Yeah I kinda agree with Nintendo on this one. It's one thing pirating 20 year old games but when it's a current gen system with access to new games even before official release then it doesn't sit right with me.

 

[MaxwellParrish]

I mean there's a difference between retrogaming and current gen emulation

With Yuzu you can play Nintendo games almost Day 1 on PC

You know, right, that Dolphin existed for the entirety of the Wii generation and a good part of the Gamecube one (starting 2003)?

 

[RaduN]

It's one thing pirating 20 year old games but when it's a current gen system with access to new games even before official release then it doesn't sit right with me.

Legally it's the exact same thing.

 

[buenoblue]

Legally it's the exact same thing.

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. It's just old laws that need fixing. It's naive to think that people are not just stealing new games .

Also tell me your pirating new switch games without telling me your pirating new switch games am I right

 

[Fabieter]

Except Mario Wonder also leaked before street date (there are torrents that were uploaded almost a week before October 20th (which was the launch date). A cursory glance at any torrent site will tell you this.

There are a lot of new mechanics in TOTK that simply weren't in BOTW and there was no way to know them in advance and optimize for them except for getting their hands on an illegally-leaked build.

Know the facts before you speak with such confidence. You are defending the dumbass team that could end emulation as we know it.

If nintendo somehow proves that they used a illegal copy of totk than the yuzu devs deserve to be drown in legal fees.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right.

In this case it's both legal and right.

 

[LostDonkey]

They sure did take their sweet time with this but I wonder why now and how come they never went after Dolphin.

After the uproar about the whales they probably didn't want to go after the Dolphins as well.

 

[buenoblue]

In this case it's both legal and right.

Ah, I see what we are dealing with here. No problem. You do you. Me, I'll pay for my games so the industry can carry on

 

[rodrigolfp]

Ah, I see what we are dealing with here. No problem. You do you. Me, I'll pay for my games so the industry can carry on

This is not about not paying for games.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Yuzu is going to fight. Good, Nintendo is 120% in the wrong here.

 

[Toons]

Nintendo wouldn't have bothered if they didn't think they had a case.

 

[Astray]

Yuzu is going to fight. Good, Nintendo is 120% in the wrong here.

They are just saying they're foregoing summons (meaning they acknowledge service of the lawsuit) and are gonna submit a response by 90 days. What that response may be? Who knows.

That PC Focus guy is probably worse than any other console warriors that get ridiculed here.

 

[ReyBrujo]

So much hate for Yuzu. Thanks to their Patreon support you don't need to wait 15 years for the emulator to be good like what happened with PS2 emulation.

Volunteers are nice and all but they work slow.

Well, volunteer working was what kept companies away from emulators. Once they become full-time workers they start paying attention to them. Hopefully this resolves until Supreme Court so that we have a definitive answer at least for this case.

 

[Astray]

Well, volunteer working was what kept companies away from emulators. Once they become full-time workers they start paying attention to them. Hopefully this resolves until Supreme Court so that we have a definitive answer at least for this case.

Yeah you don't necessarily want the supreme court anywhere near this (though this is basically one step removed, it's a federal suit in Rhodes Island). If they rule that Emulation is illegal for example, or strengthen the DMCA (which is the core tenet of this lawsuit btw), then it will likely be disastrous for the emulation scene.

These Yuzu jokers need to be kept very far away, and so should anyone who's doing anything that's covered by backcompat imo.

 

[Futaleufu]

Yeah you don't necessarily want the supreme court anywhere near this (though this is basically one step removed, it's a federal suit in Rhodes Island). If they rule that Emulation is illegal for example, or strengthen the DMCA (which is the core tenet of this lawsuit btw), then it will likely be disastrous for the emulation scene.

These Yuzu jokers need to be kept very far away, and so should anyone who's doing anything that's covered by backcompat imo.

How can emulation be illegal when Nintendo themselves sell the Arcade Archives collection on their service.

 

[Astray]

How can emulation be illegal when Nintendo themselves sell the Arcade Archives collection on their service.

It can be if it's deemed illegal for non-rights holders.

Anything can happen in SCOTUS.

 

[RaduN]

I think it's about time for the Fbneo devs to sue Capcom, for selling the Fb emulator thus violating the non-commercial licence in their Capcome Home Arcade or some shit. It seems to be on trend, but this time there is no grey, as they stole the entire code.

Seems like these big companies just don't give a single fuck about the law, just in case someone didn't know that, and there seem to be quite a few of you out there.

 

[64bitmodels]

Is emulating a PS4 game part of preserving the games in any way when it's all playable and purchasable on PS5 (and likely PS6)? Same goes for Xbox One games and the series consoles. Only delisted games are the ones getting preserved like this.

eventually an arcitecture change will happen and all the compatible games become incompatible. Then it's back to emulation.

 

[Astray]

eventually an arcitecture change will happen and all the compatible games become incompatible. Then it's back to emulation.

Yeah that's not happening anytime soon.

Even Nintendo is seemingly pushing ahead with backwards compat as a standard for Switch 2, that's how users are locked in from gen to gen.

If you ask me, it's honestly sad that we don't get massive arch improvements from gen to gen anymore.. just spec bumps.

 

[Astray]

I think it's about time for the Fbneo devs to sue Capcom, for selling the Fb emulator thus violating the non-commercial licence in their Capcome Home Arcade or some shit. It seems to be on trend, but this time there is no grey, as they stole the entire code.

Seems like these big companies just don't give a single fuck about the law, just in case someone didn't know that, and there seem to be quite a few of you out there.

Yeah sue Capcom for not paying them for doing free work on their behalf.. Work that Capcom never even asked for mind you lol. Might be the easiest route to being laughed out of court.

You don't understand the meaning of copyrights. Nintendo can use a dumped pirate copy of Super Mario Sunshine or whatever because the original IP is something they already own. Same goes for Capcom using emulation of their own Arcade gaming IP.

 

[Futaleufu]

I think it's about time for the Fbneo devs to sue Capcom, for selling the Fb emulator thus violating the non-commercial licence in their Capcome Home Arcade or some shit. It seems to be on trend, but this time there is no grey, as they stole the entire code.

Seems like these big companies just don't give a single fuck about the law, just in case someone didn't know that, and there seem to be quite a few of you out there.

IIRC one guy from Final Burn Alpha cut a deal with Capcom to use the emulator on the joystick without telling anyone else about it, including people from the team who would've never given consent. Thats why everybody quit and formed Final Burn Neo.

 

[Kenpachii]

Yeah you don't necessarily want the supreme court anywhere near this (though this is basically one step removed, it's a federal suit in Rhodes Island). If they rule that Emulation is illegal for example, or strengthen the DMCA (which is the core tenet of this lawsuit btw), then it will likely be disastrous for the emulation scene.

These Yuzu jokers need to be kept very far away, and so should anyone who's doing anything that's covered by backcompat imo.

Whatever the US rules doesn't mean shit for emulation.

 

[ReyBrujo]

Looks like they are losing patreons, 6561 paid members and $28480 right now. Wouldn't be surprised that people actively using it for piracy will quit just in case they get dragged into it. Surprised that they haven't hidden the money made per month still as it looks like it's one of the contention points.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Looks like they are losing patreons, 6561 paid members and $28480 right now. Wouldn't be surprised that people actively using it for piracy will quit just in case they get dragged into it. Surprised that they haven't hidden the money made per month still as it looks like it's one of the contention points.

Has been in a downwards trend for a few months now.

If anything, it seems they got a small spike since around the time the lawsuit news appeared.

Either due to all the attention, or from people who feel that nintendo should get fucked.

 

[Astray]

Whatever the US rules doesn't mean shit for emulation.

Tell that to the owners and proprietors of Tropic Haze LLC, a company registered in the US.

Looks like they are losing patreons, 6561 paid members and $28480 right now. Wouldn't be surprised that people actively using it for piracy will quit just in case they get dragged into it. Surprised that they haven't hidden the money made per month still as it looks like it's one of the contention points.

I'm surprised at how small the bump is, I expected a lot more support than this. I don't think we are seeing the community rallying for them at all here.

Also hiding the money doesn't really matter imo, given that Nintendo can just subpoena Patreon itself and get the figures they need. Same goes for people who quit supporting in fear of being caught, if Nintendo wants to get their names and info they will because Patreon likely keeps all of it for KYC compliance purposes.

 

[Kenpachii]

Tell that to the owners and proprietors of Tropic Haze LLC, a company registered in the US.


I'm surprised at how small the bump is, I expected a lot more support than this. I don't think we are seeing the community rallying for them at all here.

Also hiding the money doesn't really matter imo, given that Nintendo can just subpoena Patreon itself and get the figures they need. Same goes for people who quit supporting in fear of being caught, if Nintendo wants to get their names and info they will because Patreon likely keeps all of it for KYC compliance purposes.

Stop registering in the US

 

[Astray]

Stop registering in the US

So register in some shady off-shore bank like some money launderer?

It's honestly easier to just steer clear of still-supported game consoles.