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jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
My memory is a bit fuzzy on this, but it seems that some of Nintendo's patents on the NES and SNES expired, but sometime in the mid 90s the patent system was expanded to give corporations more control of their intellectual property for a longer period of time. Seems like the N64 fell under these new provisions and thus it's often illegal to replicate (unlike the NES which expired in 2005 and the SNES which expired in 2014).
Someone more knowledgeable would need to fact-check this for me though.
Someone more knowledgeable would need to fact-check this for me though.
baphomet
Member
That's not what happened. It's been said for years, but there's no truth to it.
Evangelion Unit-01
Master Chief
Yeah the famiclone situation is people essentially attempting to recreate NES hardware. They have a lot of issues to say the least.
There are also a few NES/SNES emulation based machines that essentially load the cart in an emulator. These also have a lot of issues.
Neither of these methods would work well for the N64. There isn't any avenue to clone the hardware and N64 emulation requires a pretty powerful machine.
The Super NT and Analogue's other console use FPGA chips. This allows the hardware itself to mimic the NES/SNES-it's not software emulation but it's not the same as original hardware; it is basically hardware level emulation. Very accurate and true to the original experience. People have created FPGA profiles for a lot of consoles and arcade hardware up through the GameBoy Color. N64 is frankly complicated to reverse engineer and even if someone did FPGA isn't cheap and N64 would require some expensive boards. That said, there is a project underway but I'm not sure that it would translate into a consumer product anytime soon even if they succeed with the engineering.
There are also a few NES/SNES emulation based machines that essentially load the cart in an emulator. These also have a lot of issues.
Neither of these methods would work well for the N64. There isn't any avenue to clone the hardware and N64 emulation requires a pretty powerful machine.
The Super NT and Analogue's other console use FPGA chips. This allows the hardware itself to mimic the NES/SNES-it's not software emulation but it's not the same as original hardware; it is basically hardware level emulation. Very accurate and true to the original experience. People have created FPGA profiles for a lot of consoles and arcade hardware up through the GameBoy Color. N64 is frankly complicated to reverse engineer and even if someone did FPGA isn't cheap and N64 would require some expensive boards. That said, there is a project underway but I'm not sure that it would translate into a consumer product anytime soon even if they succeed with the engineering.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
They allow people to do something pretty amazing on the cheap.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
The 64 was such a pioneer. I remember how they created a character for the camera in mario 64 (I guess to help people understand this new concept of controlling the camera?).
Cartridges were expensive tho.
Cartridges were expensive tho.
bronk
Banned
I love the Super NT and AVS. They are fantastic clones imo.
Goro Majima
Kitty Genovese Member
I really like my Retrobit Super Retro Trio Plus (horribly long name) but it gets the job done being a total hardware clone.
My Retron 5 was total trash though.
It would be great to throw in some Nintendo 64 hardware in there also just to simplify my entertainment center if nothing else.
My Retron 5 was total trash though.
It would be great to throw in some Nintendo 64 hardware in there also just to simplify my entertainment center if nothing else.
bronk
Banned
This is great info. Thanks man. I hope someone comes up with something.
baphomet
Member
I feel like a Retrotink would not only look better, be compatible with more systems, but would also be significantly cheaper.
Darko
Member
Yea I just got the retrotink 5x($300 bones) I’m gonna replace the super 64 when it comes
I did waste my money though hopefully I can Resell it
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Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
At the rate Ninty is going we will see a mini-N64 before a solid clone.
BusierDonkey
Member
The cheap 3-in-1 clones can be sketchy at times as they aren't perfect emulations of the hardware but the higher quality systems are really good.
My brother owns 2 Analog NT minis, the Super NT, Mega SG and Mega SD add-on for it. The Analog consoles use FPGA boards and are basically perfect 1:1 emulation of the original hardware. The price of the Analog consoles reflects this though. They play all the original games exactly how the original hardware did, but they can also emulate other consoles like the Game Boy, GBA, etc. Turbographx 16 cards for example are really expensive to collect, so having the ability to play the roms on perfectly emulated hardware with accurate clocks is the next best thing.
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01011001
Banned
FPGA clones can literally better than the original console in many ways. like, literally better, not just as good as the original... the most obvious improvement being easy use on HD tvs or modern PC screens without looking like complete ass
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baphomet
Member
Emulation is still emulation. Even "perfect" cores have many errors when playing games.
01011001
Banned
a good FPGA system can get updates. and Analogue for example reacts to any bug report with a patch. pretty sure their systems are almost 100% perfect for at least the main system they are set out to clone
I am not aware that any SNES game for example has issues or doesn't run 100% correct on the Super Nt
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Cutty Flam
Banned
N64 for life crew
It will be an exciting day when the Nintendo Switch receives these games
It will be an exciting day when the Nintendo Switch receives these games
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
In theory, it's the same with the FPGA cores, which are not intrinsically flawless and they can be well written or being completely shit. The (only?) big difference is you don't need a powerful machine like you have with an emulator.
Trilobit
Member
La di da! Not a mere Color, what we have here is Colour! GB must mean Great Britain.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
including the 200lb TV?
Ikutachi
Member
Yes.
cartman414
Member
Besides that, no OS latency.
nkarafo
Member
I assume the N64 hardware is too complex to clone. Emulation for it is also pretty demanding (if you are going for at least some level of accuracy) meaning you can't just do it on a cheap soc like they did with all the mini consoles so far.
I challenge you to find any errors in any SNES game emulated by a recent version of BSNES.
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Kilau
Member
The FPGA systems are cool and are a huuge step above the chinese clone consoles of the 2000s.
That being said I don't understand why someone wants a "near perfect" emulation when they can get the real thing instead.
A turbo grafx is expensive, but NES, SNES, Genesis, and N64s are not pricey at all.
I say if you want to play something "near perfect", just play it "perfect" by using the actual hardware.
If you dont have space I understand. I have a modded Genesis mini for our main bedroom as the consoles are downstairs.
PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
I wish N64 had some light gun games
cartman414
Member
nkarafo
Member
Emulation has a lot of benefits. Better graphics (not talking about HD, 480p output is perfectly fine for N64, just like the Wii VC), save states, convenience, unlimited controller options and analog deadzone/sensitivity settings. I also prefer using an XBOX one controller over the original.
But we are talking about good emulation. Anything is better than bad emulation. If you told me a few years ago, i would prefer the real N64. But nowadays, emulation on PC has been great with the Mupen RetroArch core and the accurate Parallel RDP/RSP.
There's also a new multi-emulator by the BSNES author called "Ares" and that has a new, accuracy based N64 core in the works, that can already play 75% of games perfectly to completion.
Both of these solutions have accurate N64 graphics representation, complete with N64's own filters and blurry output (at native resolution) if you prefer that.
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Oh I totally get that. To me I guess I'm more of a purist and prefer to play things the way I remember them.
Wii VC is definitely great, like you mentioned and has some of the most accurate emulators ever made.
Retroarch has made things really easy to set up as well from platform to platform.
Trimesh
Banned
The real difference between an FPGA and a software emulator is that the FPGA is inherently parallel, like the original hardware. There are also people that have written HDL descriptions of (generally older) devices that can be run in parallel with the original chips and will produce exactly the same signals at the same time as the reference implementation.
Things get even murkier with devices like the N64 since the main chip in the device originated as a logic description written in Verilog that was then synthesized and mapped into a physical device. Later on, the same logic description was used with a different set of technology specific files for the iQue player - I don't think either "emulation" or "clone" covers this situation very well.
Interestingly, the iQue player, despite being built around exactly the same Verilog as the original console actually ran noticeably better in some cases - because the memory interface block was modified to support high speed synchronous memory rather the the RDRAM that the original console used - they did consider intentionally slowing down the memory block to match the performance of the original implementation but finally decided against it since testing showed that none of the games they were planning to release were adversely affected by it.
salamanderjuice
Neo Member
Of course some do. Turok 2 and Doom 64 were originally on N64.
nkarafo
Member
Eh, the VC N64 emulator was hardly better than PJ64 and Mupen emulators with GlideN64 back in the day. There are even some texture errors in F-Zero X. VC's most notable features over other emulators were F-Zero's glow effect on vehicles (every other HLE plugin could not emulate that until a few years ago) and Pokemon's Snap crosshair being correct.
Mupen64plus-next using Parallel RDP/RSP is much more accurate than any official N64 emulator behind Nintendo's services. If you are a purist, you can just use that solution at 1x native resolution and it's like the real N64, complete with it's 3-point and VA filters. At 2x upscale it's more like the VC games on the Wii, but still more accurate because the filters are still there. Parallel RDP is the only graphics plugin that can upscale with the native N64 filters intact. It looks great because you have a cleaner picture but still retains some of that N64 smoothing effect. It looks different than regular 2x upscaling with HLE plugins like GlideN64 or Nintendo's VC.
I'm also a purist but with N64 it's not that simple. It really needs a CRT to hide it's awful video output. And even then it's still not as clean as the PS1 or (god forbid) Saturn. So my solution is upscaling at 2x with Parallel RDP and then using a blur shader to add just a tiny bit of extra blur so it looks closer to the real N64, but with less artifacts and smear that you get when you connect the N64 to a modern HD panel.
And here is the result:
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Glide64. are you talking about the Wii version? Those emulators are really poorly done (Wii64 and Not64).Eh, the VC N64 emulator was hardly better than PJ64 and Mupen emulators with GlideN64 back in the day. There are even some texture errors in F-Zero X. VC's most notable features over other emulators were F-Zero's glow effect on vehicles (every other HLE plugin could not emulate that until a few years ago) and Pokemon's Snap crosshair being correct.
Mupen64plus-next using Parallel RDP/RSP is much more accurate than any official N64 emulator behind Nintendo's services. If you are a purist, you can just use that solution at 1x native resolution and it's like the real N64, complete with it's 3-point and VA filters. At 2x upscale it's more like the VC games on the Wii, but still more accurate because the filters are still there. Parallel RDP is the only graphics plugin that can upscale with the native N64 filters intact. It looks great because you have a cleaner picture but still retains some of that N64 smoothing effect. It looks different than regular 2x upscaling with HLE plugins like GlideN64 or Nintendo's VC.
I'm also a purist but with N64 it's not that simple. It really needs a CRT to hide it's awful video output. And even then it's still not as clean as the PS1 or (god forbid) Saturn. So my solution is upscaling at 2x with Parallel RDP and then using a blur shader to add just a tiny bit of extra blur so it looks closer to the real N64, but with less artifacts and smear that you get when you connect the N64 to a modern HD panel.
And here is the result:
None of your screens look like an actual N64 to me.
nkarafo
Member
Yeah i know. I think i explained that already.
This is how a real N64 would look on a modern panel:
I think my previous examples are a good compromise between authenticity (but looking awful on a modern panel) and very high-res, ultra sharp solutions that don't even retain N64's filters.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
N64 didn’t worry about PSOne, it’s roster of games particularly Zelda gave them 3D, open world and better camera angles which is very important.