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[Audioboxer]

Open Question: What is your stance? Can you conceive a situation which you would say "crosses your line"?

No transitioning whatsoever, but that's a non-starter as most fields of sports including the Olympics make it clear transitioning is a requirement. Precisely because of a lot of the points being argued in here.

Within the realms of transitioning, of course, there will be debate and the field of science and research trying to navigate complexities around the fact transitioning is "man-made" and reliant on the current day science and medicine. Right now we focus heavily on testosterone and oestrogen as the two predominant male and female hormones. As more transgender athletes are involved in sports research and studies will probably start to pay attention to other gender differences as well, and the thing I've been arguing in the topic, how effective treatment is at various ages to impact on puberty and development which has already largely been completed.

As I said above though, I think in current day times, and times to come, the larger average of those wanting to transition will do so at "younger" ages because generally speaking most will want to see the most effective results possible. But by all means we should support transition at any age we can, as it's not the case everyone knows they want to transition, or even feels comfortable doing so at some arbitrary set age. Especially younger ages when the brain can be all over the place in it's line of thought.

 

[Sarcastic Poster]

My instance is that women should compete with women if they are within aceptable testosterone ranges and men should compete with men if they are within aceptable testosterone ranges.

I don't care if the person was born with fucking WINGS so their record on jumping is "still haven't landed yet"



Hello, nice to meet you.

I am a woman born with those advantages and dimensions

Sorry, should've rephrased it to clarify a ciswoman. Apologies.

 

[Rimon-hanit]

I feel this issue should sort itself out, if we will start seeing an unproportional representation of trans women in professional women sport a complete ban should be implemented, but I think it's to early to call.

 

[witchedwiz]

You're wrong, sadly.

http://www.nature.com/scitable/foru...e-study-in-genetic-sports-advantage-126651125



In this case, they're requiring her to take drugs to suppress her natural amount of testosterone.

ouch.. fair point then, I wasn't aware of it... :/

still, I think that integrating transgenders into the sports of the new transitioned category (male or female) without any added regulation is not the right way..
Until there is a clear doctrine//guidelines regarding the integration, I stand on my position that fluidly allowing competition is not the way to go...

 

[psychowave]

No transitioning whatsoever, but that's a non-starter as most fields of sports including the Olympics make it clear transitioning is a requirement. Precisely because of a lot of the points being argued in here.

Within the realms of transitioning, of course, there will be debate and the field of science and research trying to navigate complexities around the fact transitioning is "man-made" and reliant on the current day science and medicine. Right now we focus heavily on testosterone and oestrogen as the two predominant male and female hormones. As more transgender athletes are involved in sports research and studies will probably start to pay attention to other gender differences as well, and the thing I've been arguing in the topic, how effective treatment is at various ages to impact on puberty and development which has already largely been completed.

As I said above though, I think in current day times, and times to come, the larger average of those wanting to transition will do so at "younger" ages because generally speaking most will want to see the most effective results possible. But by all means we should support transition at any age we can, as it's not the case everyone knows they want to transition, or even feels comfortable doing so at some arbitrary set age.

This is a dangerous stance as we don't yet know the effects of testosterone on prepubescent girls.

 

[The Albatross]

There will never be an easy answer for this. Anybody coming in and thinking that they have the automatic, easy answer probably hasn't considered everything fully. If you find yourself typing "Easy... just do X Y Z," reconsider how easy your solution is.

If it's that easy, the athletes competing and the oversight committees would have instituted your solution.

 

[Ketkat]

still, I think that integrating transgenders into the sports of the new transitioned category (male or female) without any added regulation is not the right way..
Until there is a clear doctrine//guidelines regarding the integration, I stand on my position that fluidly allowing competition is not the way to go...

Those guidelines already exist. Its been happening for 13 years in the Olympics.

This is a dangerous stance as we don't yet know the effects of testosterone on prepubescent girls.

Oh boy. You're going to start arguing about how kids shouldn't be transitioning at a "young" age now?

 

[APF]

Bone density actually starts declining in your 30s...

 

[Audioboxer]

This is a dangerous stance as we don't yet know the effects of testosterone on prepubescent girls.

But nowhere in what I said was I saying anyone has to transition at or by a certain age. Just that I felt many will want to try and transition at an "optimal" age where current day medicine and drugs can have an objectively decent impact on the body. Just like puberty has "optimal" years where most growth takes place.

As an offshoot to your comment, for sure I want science and medicine to improve and research further. They will, though, we're always doing research. Hence why we're able to even transition humans in the first place.

 

[Bucca]

Bone density actually starts declining in your 30s...

The effect can be slowed to varying degrees depending on the level/amount of load-bearing exercises done by the individual during development.

 

[excelsiorlef]

ouch.. fair point then, I wasn't aware of it... :/

still, I think that integrating transgenders into the sports of the new transitioned category (male or female) without any added regulation is not the right way..
Until there is a clear doctrine//guidelines regarding the integration, I stand on my position that fluidly allowing competition is not the way to go...

There literally is...

http://www.outsports.com/2016/1/21/10812404/transgender-ioc-policy-new-olympics

There will never be an easy answer for this. Anybody coming in and thinking that they have the automatic, easy answer probably hasn't considered everything fully. If you find yourself typing "Easy... just do X Y Z," reconsider how easy your solution is.

If it's that easy, the athletes competing and the oversight committees would have instituted your solution.

To be fair they have for me see above

 

[darscot]

This is so silly, it is a clear advantage and you simply should not be competing in gender specific competitions. The audacity to go up there and stand on the podium.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

If it is a question of our current abilities with medicine, then I'm sure things will be more straightforward the more advanced our medicine becomes, because as of right now many probably don't really know what the biological change entail and sell our current abilities short. I can't say if we are there yet, but surely the more advanced it all looks will make people be less skeptical of it once we are there.

 

[ScatheZombie]

You're making a very big deal about what amounts to 1 - 2 cm^2 of muscle in difference for the top percentile.

Alright, let's look at their raw numbers instead of trying to pixel-fuck the graph.

Table 2, XY post-treatment versus XX pre-treatment.

Difference in mean is 277.8 vs 238.8; 39 cm^2.

Difference in mean at standard deviation is 314.8 vs 271.9; 42.9 cm^2.

95% CI is between 15.1 cm^2 and 62.9 cm^2.

That's still a relatively large difference across all measurements (mean, SD, and 95% CI low and high).

The reason they intentionally ignore the smaller difference in the top 5% of their research (note, not the top 5% of all people), is because that can easily be accounted for by having a higher-grade F athlete as your top research candidate for that group compared to a lower-grade M-F athlete as the top for the other group.

Scientifically speaking, we should be looking at the 15.1 cm^2 number for argument's sake, as that's the lowest difference within the CI. And that's still a pretty big difference.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

You do realize those are the averages, right? The big dots on the graph? They're still completely within transmen before transition ranges.

The strongest in the M-F group (those who would be athletes) will be way stronger than the strongest in the F group (those who would be athletes). It's not a level playing field

 

[APF]

The effect can be slowed to varying degrees depending on the level/amount of load-bearing exercises done by the individual during development.

But if an athlete who is still experiencing bone density loss is competing against athletes who are experiencing bone density gain, and the actual benefits of bone density above the normal physiological range are questionable to begin with...

Not to mention we aren't considering anti-androgen use on bone density...

 

[Platy]

This is so silly, it is a clear advantage and you simply should not be competing in gender specific competitions. The audacity to go up there and stand on the podium.

Why do you think such advantage must not allow her to compete even if she fits in every other rule ?

There will never be an easy answer for this. Anybody coming in and thinking that they have the automatic, easy answer probably hasn't considered everything fully. If you find yourself typing "Easy... just do X Y Z," reconsider how easy your solution is.

If it's that easy, the athletes competing and the oversight committees would have instituted your solution.

There is an easy answer for this.
SOME WOMEN ARE BORN WITH GENETIC ADVANTAGES, DEAL WITH IT
That is already the solution in place

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is so silly, it is a clear advantage and you simply should not be competing in gender specific competitions. The audacity to go up there and stand on the podium.

The audacity?... she trained, worked hard, competed and won under the current governing rules that allowed her to compete.

 

[witchedwiz]

There literally is...

http://www.outsports.com/2016/1/21/10812404/transgender-ioc-policy-new-olympics




To be fair they have for me see above

yes, but If i recall correctly it was defined around years ago...
are we ready to apply it? how widespread is it?
are they enforced or not?

 

[Ketkat]

The strongest in the M-F group (those who would be athletes) will be way stronger than the strongest in the F group (those who would be athletes). It's not a level playing field

Why is that? That's not what the data says at all. You can debate the averages, sure. But to say that the strongest for transwomen is WAY stronger? The data doesn't support that.

yes, but If i recall correctly it was defined around years ago...
are we ready to apply it? how widespread is it?
are they enforced or not?

Yeah? They've been enforced for a while. Which is why its pretty weird that people seem to think trans people are just going to dominate the competition when it hasn't happened yet. Its true. This woman won the competition that the thread is about. But this isn't widespread.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Alright, let's look at their raw numbers instead of trying to pixel-fuck the graph.

Table 2, XY post-treatment versus XX pre-treatment.

Difference in mean is 277.8 vs 238.8; 39 cm^2.

Difference in mean at standard deviation is 314.8 vs 271.9; 42.9 cm^2.

95% CI is between 15.1 cm^2 and 62.9 cm^2.

That's still a relatively large difference across all measurements (mean, SD, and 95% CI low and high).

The reason they intentionally ignore the smaller difference in the top 5% of their research (note, not the top 5% of all people), is because that can easily be accounted for by having a higher-grade F athlete as your top research candidate for that group compared to a lower-grade M-F athlete as the top for the other group.

Scientifically speaking, we should be looking at the 15.1 cm^2 number for argument's sake, as that's the lowest difference within the CI. And that's still a pretty big difference.

Exactly. Especially the bolded. Ketkat, have you taken any courses in statistics and/or methodology of science? You don't seem to know what you're talking about. Using sources that disprove your point makes your argument look weaker.

 

[darscot]

Some athletes understand the spirit of competition and respect the sport. This is a mockery of that. Sidney Crosby could play beer league hockey but guess what he doesn't because he respects the game. Sometimes you have to put the bullshit rules written on paper aside and do what's right.

 

[excelsiorlef]

yes, but If i recall correctly it was defined around years ago...
are we ready to apply it? how widespread is it?
are they enforced or not?

Literally January 2016....

Literally the rules that were used in this story.

 

[Ketkat]

Exactly. Especially the bolded. Ketkat, have you taken any courses in statistics and/or methodology of science? You don't seem to know what you're talking about. Using sources that disprove your point makes your argument look weaker.

The range of the data is actually incredibly important. You don't just cut off the top 5% like you're implying. They look at averages because, they're averages so your data is more reliable there, obviously. But this is data that shows that transwomen are ALL within ciswomen values. A higher average maybe, but we're not talking about that.

We are talking about the top % of both groups, since we're talking about competitive sports and the Olympics. So to only look at averages when you can see the range of data, is kind of disingenuous.

 

[thelatestmodel]

It doesn't seem fair to me, but then this is a very new area in sports. Hope we can find a solution that makes everyone happy.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

The range of the data is actually incredibly important. You don't just cut off the top 5% like you're implying. They look at averages because, they're averages so your data is more reliable there, obviously. But this is data that shows that transwomen are ALL within ciswomen values. A higher average maybe, but we're not talking about that.

Again, have you taken courses in statistics and/or methodology in science? You have to look at averages standard deviations, otherwise an outlier in a very small sample size would skew the results enormously.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Using an unfair genetic advantage that allowed her to win easily.



Is this a trick question? She has an unfair advantage. Therefore, she must not be allowed to compete with cis women. It isn't fair.

I am as pro-trans as you can get, but I am also all about fair play in sports, and sports are often divided by gender. The only fair way for trans people to compete in those is to have a trans category in competition. I hate that there is no other way, but that's how it is.

I mean to be pedantic that's actually literally not how it is because the IOC has different rules and regulations that allow for exactly what happened... I mean literally she played perfectly within IOC rules.

 

[Ketkat]

Again, have you taken courses in statistics and/or methodology in science? You have to look at averages standard deviations, otherwise an outlier in a very small sample size would skew the results enormously.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But we're talking about competitive sports and the Olympics. We are literally talking about the outliers, so I don't see a point in ignoring them when it comes to this.

If you can find some other kind of data that contradicts these outliers, then go for it.

 

[witchedwiz]

Why is that? That's not what the data says at all. You can debate the averages, sure. But to say that the strongest for transwomen is WAY stronger? The data doesn't support that.



Yeah? They've been enforced for a while. Which is why its pretty weird that people seem to think trans people are just going to dominate the competition when it hasn't happened yet. Its true. This woman won the competition that the thread is about. But this isn't widespread.

I'll plead ignorance on the aspect of enforcement, but now it stands to reason..
if you or whoever in this topic, if anyone is prepared//competent on those guidelines.. are they satisfactory enough to handle the transgender competition integration or not?
just this simple question...

 

[LostCaress]

The weighlifter in the OP is a woman, and has always been, right? Even before the hormonal treatments and surgery, we can agree she's a woman?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Yes, I'm aware of that. But we're talking about competitive sports and the Olympics. We are literally talking about the outliers, so I don't see a point in ignoring them when it comes to this.

If you can find some other kind of data that contradicts these outliers, then go for it.

Because you can't look at outliers in a sample size of below 20 people and use that to draw conclusions for outliers in the population at large. Again, have you ever taken courses in statistics or methodology of science?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'll plead ignorance on the aspect of enforcement, but now it stands to reason..
if you or whoever in this topic, if anyone is prepared//competent on those guidelines.. are they satisfactory enough to handle the transgeder competition integration or not?
just this simple question...

I mean they are in place and are allowing trans women to compete so I'm satisfied...

 

[Platy]

The weighlifter in the OP is a woman, and has always been, right? Even before the hormonal treatments and surgery, we can agree she's a woman?

Yes

Also, your avatar freaks me out for some reason

 

[Ketkat]

Because you can't look at outliers in a sample size of below 20 people and use that to draw conclusions for the population at large.

Really now? Because I see you doing that with the trans athletes. They are extreme outliers, yet you keep using them as examples of how transwomen shouldn't be allowed to compete against ciswomen.

The strongest in the M-F group (those who would be athletes) will be way stronger than the strongest in the F group (those who would be athletes). It's not a level playing field

 

[Audioboxer]

The weighlifter in the OP is a woman, and has always been, right? Even before the hormonal treatments and surgery, we can agree she's a woman?

Yes, gender dysphoria. A female brain trapped in a male body. Her body began as male though, and went through puberty as male. That is the talking point here, not that she isn't female. Some do not transition at all, others do later in life, possibly down to a terrible upbringing and depression/anxiety and other issues. Always a female, but modern science tries to align the body to match up with the brain, if someone chooses.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Really now? Because I see you doing that with the trans athletes. They are extreme outliers, yet you keep using them as examples of how transwomen shouldn't be allowed to compete against ciswomen.

In my quote I didn't mean strongest outlier. I meant strongest quintile. Huge difference

 

[Ketkat]

In my quote I didn't mean strongest outlier. I meant strongest quintile. Huge difference

Same then.

 

[JasonUresti]

Seems to give some small advantage, but not overwhelmingly so.

Certainly not so much for us to even entertain the absurdly ridiculous notion that a rash of males athletes will go through the mental and physical stress of transitioning so they can win a sporting competition.

 

[FoxSpirit]

I mean to be pedantic that's actually literally not how it is because the IOC has different rules and regulations that allow for exactly what happened... I mean literally she played perfectly within IOC rules.

Yes, but the thing is, is that rule fair? At the top only very small differences make or break it and it looks like MtF gives a definite advantage. It's almost silly to believe supressing Testosterone will magically 100% make your whole performance parameters female.

 

[TenCentCoast]

Seems to give some small advantage, but not overwhelmingly so.

Certainly not so much for us to even entertain the absurdly ridiculous notion that a rash of males athletes will go through the mental and physical stress of transitioning so they can win a sporting competition.

This is the thing I'll never understand about these conspiracy theories. Cis people have absolutely no fucking clue what transitioning actually involves on a mental, emotional, and physical level. It isn't just something where you can wake up and decide to just do it. It's a very thought out and conscious decision.

 

[Scotch]

Yes

Also, your avatar freaks me out for some reason

Do you think she should have been able to compete in the women's competition before she transitioned?

 

[ScatheZombie]

Yes, I'm aware of that. But we're talking about competitive sports and the Olympics. We are literally talking about the outliers, so I don't see a point in ignoring them when it comes to this.

If you can find some other kind of data that contradicts these outliers, then go for it.

If that's the approach you now want to take with this, then the research you provided proves absolutely nothing because anything outside the CI is garbage data that's intentionally ignored by the researchers themselves.

You can either accept that the research provided actually shows the opposite of what you were trying to argue or we can throw it out and you're back to having the same anecdotal argument as the people you ridiculed for that exact thing earlier in the thread.

 

[Platy]

Yes, but the thing is, is that rule fair? At the top only very small differences make or break it and it looks like MtF gives a definite advantage. It's almost silly to believe supressing Testosterone will magically 100% make your whole performance parameters female.

It is fair in a way that every woman who has testosterone at a certain level (to avoid steroids) can compete.

It is as fair as those examples posted where the person have higher tendons or more blood cells. It is also as rare.

Do you think she should have been able to compete in the women's competition before she transitioned?

No because testosterone levels are important to avoid steroid use.
The rules are : Gender, Weight and Testosterone levels
When she fits all of those she can compete

Unless you mean socialy transitioned than yes she can compete being socialy seen as man if her testosterone levels fit within the rules

 

[Ketkat]

If that's the approach you now want to take with this, then the research you provided proves absolutely nothing because anything outside the CI is garbage data that's intentionally ignored by the researchers themselves.

You can either accept that the research provided actually shows the opposite of what you were trying to argue or we can throw it out and you're back to having the same anecdotal argument as the people you ridiculed for that exact thing earlier in the thread.

It shows the opposite of what I was trying to argue? Let's look at the researcher's conclusions from the paper.

1. Testosterone exposure has profound effects on muscle mass and strength, justifying the practice that men and women compete in sports in separate categories.
2. The response to testosterone exposure in men is idiosyncratic;similar plasma levels of testosterone do notproduce similar effects on muscle mass and strength.
3. The effects of cross-sex hormones in the dosages commonly used have reached their maximum effects after 1 year of administration.
4. In spite of a large difference in testosterone exposure between men and women, there is a large overlap of muscle area between them.
5. Androgen deprivation of men induces a loss of muscle area, further increasing this overlap with women.
6. Therefore, depending on the levels of arbitrariness one wants to accept, it is justifiable that reassigned M –F compete with other women.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yes, but the thing is, is that rule fair? At the top only very small differences make or break it and it looks like MtF gives a definite advantage. It's almost silly to believe supressing Testosterone will magically 100% make your whole performance parameters female.

I'd recommend reading besada's great posts that tackle this.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Can we have maybe a cut-off point with Trans people that want to participate in how long that have been transitioning?

I mean say a MtF just started not even 6 months will still have a huge advantage against her female counterparts, while maybe someone 3+ years might be more of a equal footing

I know transitioning is a huge undertaking for an individual, no "peak time" is considered the norm
Trying to mean that there's a specific time to transition
Some get to it later in life, while others very early

They way I see it, is get together with Trans-Oriented knowledgeable people/organizations with the governing bodies and set guidelines and precedents on how to move forward

As I stated earlier, a MtF or FtM would need to be "buffered" into competition
You can't just claim gender identity switch and think performance from inherent bodily makeup might give you an advantage

 

[Dhx]

She doesn't have an advantage?
As others pointed out she would be at 8th place in the olympics 2016 or 5th at the olympics 2012.
Meaning she would be able to compete with women in their absolute prime.
While herself being 39!
The oldest woman at the olympics 2012 was 30 and lifted 37kg less at place 13.
The official IWF Masters (organization for Weightlifters 35(+)) Woman World Record for 35(+) is 220kg, for 40(+) 179kg.

Show me a single cis-woman who lifted 268kg at the age of 39(+).

If this is all correct, I'm surprised it is being roundly ignored. This is beyond the example of a typical outlier and provides an entirely different context.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Can we have maybe a cut-off point with Trans people that want to participate in how long that have been transitioning?

I mean say a MtF just started not even 6 months will still have a huge advantage against her female counterparts, while maybe someone 3+ years might be more of a equal footing

I know transitioning is a huge undertaking for an individual, no "peak time" is considered the norm
Trying to mean that there's a specific time to transition
Some get to it later in life, while others very early

They way I see it, is get together with Trans-Oriented knowledgeable people/organizations with the governing bodies and set guidelines and precedents on how to move forward

As I stated earlier, a MtF or FtM would need to be "buffered" into competition
You can't just claim gender identity switch and think performance from inherent bodily makeup might give you an advantage

There are rules in pace

http://www.outsports.com/2016/1/21/10812404/transgender-ioc-policy-new-olympics

 

[Platy]

If this is all correct, I'm surprised it is being roundly ignored. This is beyond the example of a typical outlier and provides an entirely different context.

Yes, it proves that people don't consider a trans woman a woman and treat her as something different.

I don't care her outlier is more outlier than any other outlier that ever outlied.

Outliers are allowed if they fit the weight and testosterone levels.

So DEAL WITH IT

 

[Ketkat]

Can we have maybe a cut-off point with Trans people that want to participate in how long that have been transitioning?

I mean say a MtF just started not even 6 months will still have a huge advantage against her female counterparts, while maybe someone 3+ years might be more of a equal footing

I know transitioning is a huge undertaking for an individual, no "peak time" is considered the norm
Trying to mean that there's a specific time to transition
Some get to it later in life, while others very early

They way I see it, is get together with Trans-Oriented knowledgeable people/organizations with the governing bodies and set guidelines and precedents on how to move forward

As I stated earlier, a MtF or FtM would need to be "buffered" into competition
You can't just claim gender identity switch and think performance from inherent bodily makeup might give you an advantage

No one is saying that should be allowed. I agree that trans people should follow the proper guidelines and be transitioning and have certain levels for so long before competing. FYI, its 2 years of HRT for the Olympics.