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MS's Response to Sony's "No AAA Studio Can Match CoD" Statement + Confirms Sony Pays To Blocks Games From Game Pass

Ozriel

Member
Doesn't meant they were desperate at all. Says to me they were more focused on game sales for the first year and a half then the possibility of being part of a subscription. Furthermore, they did not give up rights to negotiate those deals. Just the first year. After that they absolutely can negotiate and frankly, use those negotiations to force Sony to match the offers they were given.

Nah. Not just the first year. First year + 120 days + 60 days to decide if they want to match competing offers. And a deal which prevents them from making deals with partners who do not want their terms of negotiation disclosed.

They are plenty of other big AAA games Microsoft can add to gamepass outside of the ones Sony is blocking. But they're not.

But they added MLB The Show, Sniper Elite 5, Far Cry 5, Assassins Creed, FIFA 22, For Honor and a bunch of Yakuza games in the past 4 months.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
What a crock of shit. The RE8 contract that leaked mentioned stadia too. RE8 is available on stadia right now.


Reading and comprehension, how does it work.







Don't be too quick to fire off your shots, cowboy.
 
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Topher

Gold Member
Nah. Not just the first year. First year + 120 days + 60 days to decide if they want to match competing offers. And a deal which prevents them from making deals with partners who do not want their terms of negotiation disclosed.

I said "first year and a half". And yes, that's generally how right of first refusal works.

"The right of first refusal is created by a contract between two parties. One party owns property, such as real estate or a business, and the other party holds the ROFR. The contract provides that if the property owner wants to enter into a transaction with anyone else, like deciding to sell a business, the owner of the ROFR must be given the same opportunity to enter that transaction on the same terms. "

 
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adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Topher Topher

here's another point of discussion that is somewhat relevant I guess.

We know it's heavily rumored that MS are looking into letting players be able to play owned games via XCloud and not just games that are on game pass. The Village contract specifically mentions XCloud in the list of prohibited services as well.

That would imply that *if* MS launches such a service, then its possible that there may be games, like Village, you won't be able to play on xcloud even if you own it.
 

Ozriel

Member
I said "first year and a half". And yes, that's generally how right of first refusal works.

"The right of first refusal is created by a contract between two parties. One party owns property, such as real estate or a business, and the other party holds the ROFR. The contract provides that if the property owner wants to enter into a transaction with anyone else, like deciding to sell a business, the owner of the ROFR must be given the same opportunity to enter that transaction on the same terms. "

[/URL][/URL]

'Right of first refusal' does not describe the mandatory first year where they can't even enter into any negotiation with another party.

Good call on the 'year and half' bit. I didn't read that correctly the first time.
 
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Topher

Gold Member
Topher Topher

here's another point of discussion that is somewhat relevant I guess.

We know it's heavily rumored that MS are looking into letting players be able to play owned games via XCloud and not just games that are on game pass. The Village contract specifically mentions XCloud in the list of prohibited services as well.

That would imply that *if* MS launches such a service, then its possible that there may be games, like Village, you won't be able to play on xcloud even if you own it.

More than likely. Again, this is about marketing so being able to market RE V for xCloud or Game Pass services doesn't make sense.

'Right of first refusal' does not describe the mandatory first year where they can't even enter into any negotiation with another party.

Correct. ROFR isn't triggered until after the exclusive marketing period expires.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
I know Capcom is a publisher. The point is that they both needed help and that's when Sony and Microsoft stepped in.
Please provide proof that BioWare, the most successful RPG developer at the time, needed help resulting in them being exclusive to the only console that they were developing on at the time.

Otherwise you‘re inventing a conspiracy that wasn’t there.
 
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Three

Member
Reading and comprehension, how does it work.





[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]


Don't be too quick to fire off your shots, cowboy.

The contract term was one year. The game came out on May 2021. The free demos with Stadia launched June 2022 one year later. Capcom are free to negotiate with other companies. The idea that gamepass has no big games because of Sony is a crock of shit. What about all the games MS has a marketing contract with? Battlefield 2042, Cyberpunk 2077, are you telling me they can't get those too due to Sony? They just aren't putting in the offers or publishers are not accepting.
 
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adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
The contract term was one year. The game came out on May 2021. The free demos with Stadia launched June 2022 one year later. Capcom are free to negotiate with other companies. The idea that gamepass has no big games because of Sony is a crock of shit. What about all the games MS has a marketing contract with? Battlefield 2042, Cyberpunk 2077, are you telling me they can't get those too due to Sony? They just aren't putting in the offers or publishers are not accepting.


That's a hard pivot :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Also, demos =/= full game so that's a moot comparison.

Also, including contract terms and right-to-match other services, the contract allows an additional 180 days after the 1 year where Sony can negotiate keeping Village off of other services, as the one example we know the contract of.

And Battlefield will come to game pass via EA Play after its 8~10 month cycle anyway, like all EA games do. So that is also a moot point.


Two games. The majority of those are old

The list of day 1 games added to game pass in 2022 is pretty long, a lot of AA games and a fair number of AAA games as well.

Out of only a fingerfull of big third party games that are left coming out in 2022, Plague Tale is coming day 1. Gotham Knights and Calisto have sony marketing so they won't be coming to GP, same for Hogwarts but that got delayed to 2023 anyway.

So there really isn't much left in this calendar year anyway.
 
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Topher Topher

here's another point of discussion that is somewhat relevant I guess.

We know it's heavily rumored that MS are looking into letting players be able to play owned games via XCloud and not just games that are on game pass. The Village contract specifically mentions XCloud in the list of prohibited services as well.

That would imply that *if* MS launches such a service, then its possible that there may be games, like Village, you won't be able to play on xcloud even if you own it.

Depends on whether there's a license issue I guess. If they need to contact devs/pubs to authorise xcloud for a users library then yeah it'll get blocked.
 
The list of day 1 games added to game pass in 2022 is pretty long, a lot of AA games and a fair number of AAA games as well.

Out of only a fingerfull of big third party games that are left coming out in 2022, Plague Tale is coming day 1. Gotham Knights and Calisto have sony marketing so they won't be coming to GP, same for Hogwarts but that got delayed to 2023 anyway.

So there really isn't much left in this calendar year anyway.

There's barely any AAA games that came day one in that list.
 
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adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
There's barely any AAA games that came day one in that list.

Well, yeah, that's one of the key points of this discussion.

Any games that had priority marketing with Sony, we can rule out coming to game pass owing to a glimpse of their contracts. But then again, 2022 in general had much less third party AAA games in comparison to most years already.
 

onesvenus

Member
Are you telling me that a company with endless pockets like Microsoft can't contact all publishers and tell them beforehand that come to them first before signing a contract because they will outbid any pricing Playstation offer? You think these CEO stupid and only react after something happens in secret? Preemptive strategies don't exist for Xbox leadership?

No way and in secret lmao.
So your amazing take is that Microsoft can contact all publishers and tell them to go with them first before signing any contract with Sony and publishers will do that?
You guys are painting a world where money can do anything but this is not the world we live in. What if a publisher has more sympathy for Sony and how they do things? Let's suppose Activision was one of those publishers, can you explain, slowly please, how Microsoft could get a deal about CoD if Activision didn't want to?
 
Well, yeah, that's one of the key points of this discussion.

Any games that had priority marketing with Sony, we can rule out coming to game pass owing to a glimpse of their contracts. But then again, 2022 in general had much less third party AAA games in comparison to most years already.

There were plenty of higher profile games they could have gotten throughout 2022.

Instead they opted for shit like Extraction, which I'm hard pressed to even call a AAA game. Or ubisoft probably expected it to be a flop so they got it for cheap.
 
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I hope this deals goes through soon. Some of the arguments justifying blocking games from services/platforms are so anticonsumer no matter who does it now, who did it first, etc for marketing or any other reason. All console companies have done it going back to the old Sega/Nintendo days. It was BS then as it is BS now for the consumers.

In the end, this deal is more likely to go through than not. And then the next aquisition will come up and we'll rehash all of this again.
 

Three

Member
That's a hard pivot :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Also, demos =/= full game so that's a moot comparison.

Also, including contract terms and right-to-match other services, the contract allows an additional 180 days after the 1 year where Sony can negotiate keeping Village off of other services, as the one example we know the contract of.

And Battlefield will come to game pass via EA Play after its 8~10 month cycle anyway, like all EA games do. So that is also a moot point.




The list of day 1 games added to game pass in 2022 is pretty long, a lot of AA games and a fair number of AAA games as well.

Out of only a fingerfull of big third party games that are left coming out in 2022, Plague Tale is coming day 1. Gotham Knights and Calisto have sony marketing so they won't be coming to GP, same for Hogwarts but that got delayed to 2023 anyway.

So there really isn't much left in this calendar year anyway.
Not really a pivot from the main point. I was saying the idea you were peddling that MS can't get day one games on gamepass because they are being blocked by Sony is a crock of shit. They could get countless other games from various publishers. They are not getting them because most publishers of big games do not want to do day one releases on gamepass, MS is not making them the offer, or offering the amount required to do so. Trying to blame the lack of releases on another company is a crock of shit.


I hope somebody anonymously leaks the MS contract for CP2077 or BF2022 so a few here can eat crow.

Please provide proof that BioWare, the most successful RPG developer at the time, needed help resulting in them being exclusive to the only console that they were developing on at the time.

Otherwise you‘re inventing a conspiracy that wasn’t there.
Capcom is a publisher though. BioWare never was a publisher.
You have people here suggesting EA, one of the biggest most successful publishers desperately needed money for their Titanfall marketing deals too. It's not about publishers vs devs it's all just trying to make marketing deals and all they entail somehow seem different on both sides.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Topher Topher

here's another point of discussion that is somewhat relevant I guess.

We know it's heavily rumored that MS are looking into letting players be able to play owned games via XCloud and not just games that are on game pass. The Village contract specifically mentions XCloud in the list of prohibited services as well.

That would imply that *if* MS launches such a service, then its possible that there may be games, like Village, you won't be able to play on xcloud even if you own it.

You'd think that there would be some missing titles, just because of things like this and since some of the devs seem to not want to allow streaming (look at GeforceNow).
 

Three

Member
There were plenty of higher profile games they could have gotten throughout 2022.

Instead they opted for shit like Extraction, which I'm hard pressed to even call a AAA game. Or ubisoft probably expected it to be a flop so they got it for cheap.
Extraction is the game mode outbreak dlc 'sold' as a separate game. They knew sales of the game wouldn't be high because it doesn't matter. Sales are their side hustle, they launched a f2p style game where they sell you game currencies to unlock junk. $50 for 5000 react credits anyone?

https://rainbowsix.fandom.com/wiki/REACT_Credits
 
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The contract term was one year. The game came out on May 2021. The free demos with Stadia launched June 2022 one year later. Capcom are free to negotiate with other companies. The idea that gamepass has no big games because of Sony is a crock of shit. What about all the games MS has a marketing contract with? Battlefield 2042, Cyberpunk 2077, are you telling me they can't get those too due to Sony? They just aren't putting in the offers or publishers are not accepting.
The fact MLB The Show is on Game pass is hilarious as well.

Sony must have hated it when that was announced
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
The fact MLB The Show is on Game pass is hilarious as well.

Sony must have hated it when that was announced

The only thing they've ever said about it is that it was MLB's decision, they have never fully/openly acknowledged the game being on Xbox, Switch or talked anything about the technicals, features or anything on those platforms. It was literally a port done with a gun to their heads and the threat of licensing.
 
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Ozriel

Member
You not grasping the context isn't moving goalposts

You: "Sony isn't going to block all AAA games and yet MS isn't putting AAA games on Gamepass"
Me: "Here's a list of AAA games"
You: "oh, these don't count"

At no time did MS specify 'day 1' when they alleged Sony was blocking them from putting AAA games on Gamepass.

Let's not even get into the fact that MLB and Sniper Elite were Day 1, and FIFA 22 isn't exactly cheap as chips.
 
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You: "Sony isn't going to block all AAA games and yet MS isn't putting AAA games on Gamepass"
Me: "Here's a list of AAA games"
You: "oh, these don't count"

At no time did MS specify 'day 1' when they alleged Sony was blocking them from putting AAA games on Gamepass.

The point of this discussion is addressing why would Capcom agree to such a subscription clause. You seem to think they were desperate.

The simple answer is no one wants to pay the amount of money required to get these high profile games. Case in point, Microsoft opted for the three year old Far Cry 5 instead of the latest release.

Get it yet?
 
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There were plenty of higher profile games they could have gotten throughout 2022.

Instead they opted for shit like Extraction, which I'm hard pressed to even call a AAA game. Or ubisoft probably expected it to be a flop so they got it for cheap.

Like what? Elden Ring? 2022 has been very dry in terms of AAA or “high profile” games MS could secure for GamePass.
 

Sosokrates

Member
Are you telling me that a company with endless pockets like Microsoft can't contact all publishers and tell them beforehand that come to them first before signing a contract because they will outbid any pricing Playstation offer? You think these CEO stupid and only react after something happens in secret? Preemptive strategies don't exist for Xbox leadership?

No way and in secret lmao.

I mean...sony could f got in there first.




If Ms went to every company and said call me if u get any exclusivity offer we will outbid it.
I dont think it would be that simple. I mean the companies could just say they got offers for rediculous amounts...or the companies might say lets just do a deal now but ms may not want to.
 

The_Mike

Gold Member
After reading several posts, I can see we've moved from game pass has no games, to game pass not having triple a games, to not have enough day one triple a games.

The fact MLB The Show is on Game pass is hilarious as well.

Sony must have hated it when that was announced
Tbh mlb is such a niche title that I don't think Sony gives a shit about it.
 

onesvenus

Member
They are not getting them because most publishers of big games do not want to do day one releases on gamepass, MS is not making them the offer, or offering the amount required to do so.
Yeah, there's no way some games are not there because Sony are blocking them, it's all Microsoft fault for not trying hard enough.
Do you have any evidence that we should know that would make you certain that Sony doing such a thing is out of the realm of possibilities?
 

Sosokrates

Member
Topher Topher

here's another point of discussion that is somewhat relevant I guess.

We know it's heavily rumored that MS are looking into letting players be able to play owned games via XCloud and not just games that are on game pass. The Village contract specifically mentions XCloud in the list of prohibited services as well.

That would imply that *if* MS launches such a service, then its possible that there may be games, like Village, you won't be able to play on xcloud even if you own it.

I wonder of MS will change the xbox platform to be playable via cloud, so if you want to make an xbox series S/X game it has to work on cloud.

That would certainly make it harder for other companies to prevent an xcloud option because they would have to compensate the developer for lost xbox sales.
 
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adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I wonder of MS will cahnge the xbox platform to be playable via cloud, so if you want to make an xbox series S/X game it has to work on cloud.

That would certainly make it harder for other companies to prevent an xcloud option because they would have to compensate the developer for lost xbox sales.

I think we're at least one to two generations before we can get a fully cloud-based console, stadia tried that but you can see how quickly that project ended. We will definitely see it in our lifetime but maybe not for another two generations at the minimum, I believe.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Yeah, there's no way some games are not there because Sony are blocking them, it's all Microsoft fault for not trying hard enough.
Do you have any evidence that we should know that would make you certain that Sony doing such a thing is out of the realm of possibilities?

All you have to do is look at the big AAA games that have no marketing ties to Sony such as Cyberpunk 2077, Borderlands 3, Far Cry 6, AC Valhalla that are also not on Game Pass. Look at Resident evil 7. Came out the same year as Game Pass but didn't show up on the service until three years later. And somehow some are pointing fingers at Sony for games that sell very well for not coming to Game Pass the first year and a half? That's absurd. These publishers want game sales. Game Pass is getting sub-AAA third party games or games that underperformed in the market such as Marvel's Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy. So examples comparable to RE V show us Game Pass subscribers will have to wait a few years to get those games regardless of what marketing deals they have.
 

Three

Member
Yeah, there's no way some games are not there because Sony are blocking them, it's all Microsoft fault for not trying hard enough.
Do you have any evidence that we should know that would make you certain that Sony doing such a thing is out of the realm of possibilities?
What? I don't understand. Doing what? Making marketing deals? Without a shadow of a doubt. Sony the reason why most publishers aren't going gamepass day one though? Absolute crock of shit.

It's adamsapple who is convinced that the reason gamepass has no big third party AAA games day one is all Sony's fault. It's nonsense. The conversation again:

Doesn't meant they were desperate at all. Says to me they were more focused on game sales for the first year and a half then the possibility of being part of a subscription. Furthermore, they did not give up rights to negotiate those deals. Just the first year. After that they absolutely can negotiate and frankly, use those negotiations to force Sony to match the offers they were given.

The clause only really affects Capcom on the off-chance that Stadia or Xbox decide that they actually want their games day one.

Google's pretty much given up on Stadia, and just look at what Xbox is offering with gamepass? It's clear they're not even bothering with AAA third party games at this point.

So yeah, it's safe to say none of these big pubs give a shit about that subscription clause lol.
but .. the "blocking deals" preventing from doing that is exactly what this is about ..

they're still offering games like Plague Tale, STALKER 2, Scorn, Atomic Heart etc when they can but one of the bigger point of their rebuttal is that they're being blocked.
Sorry, I simply don't believe Sony has their hands in every publishers pockets for all of their games to block gamepass. If you have evidence of that by all means but the mere thought of it is just ludicrous

Gamepass has been dogshit this year. And I very much doubt that's because of Sony
You're doing what mack was doing earlier and demanding evidence that's clearly redacted in the documents. It's asking for something no one can give you in a bullet point format.

I don't see any reason why MS would give out false info to the courts. Why make their case for the acquisition more difficult on themselves. Nor has anyone from Sony come out to deny this so far.

It's all disingenuous nonsense being thrown back by adamsapple. There were plenty of third party games that didn't have marketing deals or even had deals with MS but didn't want to come to GP day one.
 
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Sosokrates

Member
I think we're at least one to two generations before we can get a fully cloud-based console, stadia tried that but you can see how quickly that project ended. We will definitely see it in our lifetime but maybe not for another two generations at the minimum, I believe.
I dont mean fully cloud based, I just mean that if a dev wants to make an xbox game it has to work on cloud, kinda like they have to make a seriesS and a seriesX version.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
It's all disingenuous nonsense being thrown back by adamsapple. There were plenty of third party games that didn't have marketing deals or even had deals with MS but didn't want to come to GP day one.

Calling me disingenuous, and then using the argument why every single AAA game doesn't come to game pass on release date is a prime example of the pot calling the kettle black, no one has argued that every single release must come to Game Pass on day one, but we have in clear writing official documentation that states that some, I repeat some, games are most definitely being delayed or blocked from coming to game pass by sony.

I've already given some examples of AAA games releasing this year that have some kind of Sony marketing deal applied to them, Callisto protocol, Gotham knights, Hogwart, before it got delayed.

Other games, we simply cannot say one way or another if Microsoft has approached them to put them on Game Pass or not.

So this weird point that some of you guys are trying to raise, about why every single third party game doesn't come to Game Pass is purely disingenuous and what about ism at its finest.
 

Three

Member
Calling me disingenuous, and then using the argument why every single AAA game doesn't come to game pass on release date is a prime example of the pot calling the kettle black, no one has argued that every single release must come to Game Pass on day one, but we have in clear writing official documentation that states that some, I repeat some, games are most definitely being delayed or blocked from coming to game pass by sony.

I've already given some examples of AAA games releasing this year that have some kind of Sony marketing deal applied to them, Callisto protocol, Gotham knights, Hogwart, before it got delayed.

Other games, we simply cannot say one way or another if Microsoft has approached them to put them on Game Pass or not.

So this weird point that some of you guys are trying to raise, about why every single third party game doesn't come to Game Pass is purely disingenuous and what about ism at its finest.
You turned

"not going to gamepass day one is beneficial to third party publishers who rely on game sales, it's not desperation"

and

"yeah thats why gamepass doesn't have much third party stuff day one"

into a

"but it's all Sony's fault"

Back and forth. Even when people are telling you there are plenty of other publishers and games you continued with the disingenuous bull about it being true but hard to prove, come off it.
 
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graywolf323

Member
Neogaf is:
-F2P;
-no MTX/DLC/Season Pass;
-bug free;
-hell, you can even get Gold sometimes.

So no wonder many prefer it to the actual video games ;P
there's also the satisfying the tribal itch for the fanboys, they get a more a kick from arguing on here then actually playing anything
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
You turned

"not going to gamepass day one is beneficial to third party publishers who rely on game sales, it's not desperation"

and

"yeah thats why gamepass doesn't have much third party stuff day one"

into a

"but it's all Sony's fault"

Back and forth. Even when people are telling you there are plenty of other publishers and games you continued with the disingenuous bull about it being true but hard to prove, come off it.


First of all, I never said the desperation part, I think you're confusing multiple user posts into one. Second of all I've said numerous times in this thread that it's some games that are being affected for sure, not every single one.

I shouldn't be surprised that you're misattributing something considering you tried to pass stadia pro as stadia not too long ago.
 

Greggy

Member
How? I've seen this floating around on Twitter without any evidence. Just made up accusations by Xbox fans.

Let me remind you that Sony approached Sega to make a console, and they declined due to their inexperience in the gaming market. What pushed Sega out of the console business was Sega themselves.

Want to tell me why they would launch the Sega 32X within the same 12-month time period as the Sega Saturn? This caused shortages for the Sega Saturn and they tried to develop games for both platforms. The design of the Sega Saturn was terrible and misread as to how games were going to be designed in the future.

And what happened with the Dreamcast?

Sega breached a contract with 3Dfx by going with a Japanese manufacturer in Hitachi for their Dreamcast console. This ruined their relationship with EA because they were investors of 3Dfx.



PlayStation 2 launched on March 4, 2000 in Japan and on October 26th in North America.
Sega announced they stopped production of the Dreamcast on January 31st, 2001.


How did these so-called "exclusive deals" kick Sony out of the gaming business?
EA and Squaresoft did not publish a single game on the most easy to develop for console of its era.
Not a single NBA live, Madden or NHL game. not a single Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest.
If you think it has nothing to do with Sony's moneyhatting, you probably also think that Bethesda doesn't want to relase Deathloop on the Xbox. What else can I tell you?
Sony is who they are. They've made us accept it.
Their time to accept competition from someone their size has arrived.
 

onesvenus

Member
All you have to do is look at the big AAA games that have no marketing ties to Sony such as Cyberpunk 2077, Borderlands 3, Far Cry 6, AC Valhalla that are also not on Game Pass. Look at Resident evil 7. Came out the same year as Game Pass but didn't show up on the service until three years later. And somehow some are pointing fingers at Sony for games that sell very well for not coming to Game Pass the first year and a half? That's absurd. These publishers want game sales. Game Pass is getting sub-AAA third party games or games that underperformed in the market such as Marvel's Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy. So examples comparable to RE V show us Game Pass subscribers will have to wait a few years to get those games regardless of what marketing deals they have.
Absence of evidence is not evidence itself. I agree that publishers want game sales but that doesn't mean Sony is not blocking some of those deals. Microsoft is saying in a heavily reacted legal document that Sony is doing it. Unless you have evidence that has never happened I don't know why the fuck are still arguing about this. There are multiple reasons why a publisher would not want their game in Gamepass, it's true, but that doesn't imply Sony has never blocked a game from going there without a marketing agreement.

What? I don't understand. Doing what? Making marketing deals? Without a shadow of a doubt. Sony the reason why most publishers aren't going gamepass day one though? Absolute crock of shit.
No, paying to block Gamepass deals without a marketing agreement.
 

Three

Member
First of all, I never said the desperation part, I think you're confusing multiple user posts into one. Second of all I've said numerous times in this thread that it's some games that are being affected for sure, not every single one.

I shouldn't be surprised that you're misattributing something considering you tried to pass stadia pro as stadia not too long ago.
I didn't attribute that to you though. Reading comprehension failure after saying I'm the one with that issue?
I only mentioned what the conversation was about before you jumped in with the 'it's sonys fault why gamepass doesn't have third party day one games'. Namely people discussing the reason why publishers wouldn't care about signing the sub clause and MS not bothering or offering enough to offset the sales they might lose by going GP day one on said games. You were just upset that somebody said GP wasn't good with new big third party releases and so tried to blame sony as your out.
 
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