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[nemiroff]

The funny thing is, the police officer standing closer than two meters handing over those handwritten papers with his bare hands should also by principle be fined.

 

[llien]

French influencer 'offered cash to spread vaccine disinformation'

Grasset shared e-mails with Euronews that show a proposition from someone claiming to work for a UK-based PR company. #TheCube

www.euronews.com

 

[segasonic]

Tender breasts

 

[Chaplain]

"Our COVID Debt | Glenn Loury & Laurence Kotlikoff | The Glenn Show" (5/26/21)

Glenn Loury talks to economist Laurence Kotlikoff about Biden's tax plan and the dangers of inflation caused by debt-financed COVID relief.

 

[ManaByte]

Affected by Covid, Tokyo shopkeepers stop paying Yakuza

The powerful criminal organization offers

www.asianews.it

 

[llien]

Awkward:

 

[Moomalade74]

If you had a mild bout of Covid you do not need to take the vaccine

Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection | Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis

People who have had mild illness develop antibody-producing cells that can last lifetime

medicine.wustl.edu

Months after recovering from mild cases of COVID-19, people still have immune cells in their body pumping out antibodies against the virus that causes COVID-19, according to a study from researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. Such cells could persist for a lifetime, churning out antibodies all the while.

 

[Rentahamster]

If you had a mild bout of Covid you do not need to take the vaccine

That is NOT the conclusion of this study.

It does not make a determination that you don't need the vaccine if you already got sick with COVID in the past.

 

[Moomalade74]

That is NOT the conclusion of this study.

It does not make a determination that you don't need the vaccine if you already got sick with COVID in the past.

It's the obvious conclusion of the study. If you have long term, as in life time level antibody immunity, there is no reason to take the vaccince, the purpose of which is to infer the same level of protection. It's basic logic.

The only caveat in this study is it is based around a mild infection, not severe, which I clarified in my original post.

 

[llien]

It's the obvious conclusion of the study. If you have long term, as in life time level antibody immunity, there is no reason to take the vaccince, the purpose of which is to infer the same level of protection. It's basic logic.

That is not "conclusion of the study" at all.
There is exactly ZERO knowledge about how long the cells last in the long run.

And the Maoist "but if they'd last forever, you don't need a jab" conclusion does not need this study at all.

 

[Rentahamster]

It's the obvious conclusion of the study. If you have long term, as in life time level antibody immunity, there is no reason to take the vaccince, the purpose of which is to infer the same level of protection. It's basic logic.

The only caveat in this study is it is based around a mild infection, not severe, which I clarified in my original post.

No no no, that is not the "obvious conclusion". You don't get to just make something up just because you think it makes sense to you. You need to separate what is proven vs what is still unknown.

Just because you have memory cells and antibodies at the ready, doesn't mean you'll be protected from all other variants as well.

Immunity to the Coronavirus May Persist for Years, Scientists Find - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Dr. Ellebedy’s team obtained bone marrow samples from 19 people roughly seven months after they had been infected. Fifteen had detectable memory B cells, but four did not, suggesting that some people might carry very few of the cells or none at all.

“It tells me that even if you got infected, it doesn’t mean that you have a super immune response,” Dr. Ellebedy said. The findings reinforce the idea that people who have recovered from Covid-19 should be vaccinated, he said.

Jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions is how we get this:

 

[Moomalade74]

No no no, that is not the "obvious conclusion". You don't get to just make something up just because you think it makes sense to you. You need to separate what is proven vs what is still unknown.

Just because you have memory cells and antibodies at the ready, doesn't mean you'll be protected from all other variants as well.

Immunity to the Coronavirus May Persist for Years, Scientists Find - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

T cells produce long term immunity by storing the memory of the antibodies required to fight future infections. This was shown by studying those who were originally infected with SARS-COVID 1 and tested ten years later. I don't think you understand how the immune system works. The report I linked states quite clearly that their findings show long term immunity to COVID 19 in those who had a mild infection. You understand that conclusion yes?

What is it you think you are getting from a vaccine exactly?

Your appeal to authority with that reductive cartoon panel doesn't circumnavigate basic logic.

 

[Rentahamster]

T and B cells produce long term immunity by storing the memory of the antibodies required to fight future infections. This was shown by studying those who were originally infected with SARS-COVID 1 and tested ten years later. I don't think you understand how the immune system works. The report I linked states quite clearly that their findings show long term immunity to COVID 19 in those who had a mild infection. You understand that conclusion yes?

What is it you think you are getting from a vaccine exactly?

Your appeal to authority with that reductive cartoon panel doesn't circumnavigate basic logic.

I don't think you understand how to read if you still think that when the head author of the study you cited says himself that even people who recovered from COVID should still be vaccinated.

Argument from authority? That's not what that is. Refresh yourself on how to identify logical fallacies.

 

[Moomalade74]

Here is a scientific study analysing the role of T-Cells in confering long term immunity on those with mild or asymtomatic infection. Testing for only the anitbodies is not the full picture.

Robust T Cell Immunity in Convalescent Individuals with Asymptomatic or Mild COVID-19

SARS-CoV-2-specific memory T cells will likely prove critical for long-term immune protection against COVID-19. Here, we systematically mapped the fun…

www.sciencedirect.com

Virus-specific memory T cells have been shown to persist for many years after infection with SARS-CoV-1 (Le Bert et al., 2020; Tang et al., 2011; Yang et al., 2006). In line with these observations, we found that SARS-CoV-2-specific T cells acquired an early differentiated memory (CCR7+ CD127+ CD45RA−/+ TCF1+) phenotype in the convalescent phase, as reported previously in the context of other viral infections and successful vaccines (Blom et al., 2013; Demkowicz et al., 1996; Fuertes Marraco et al., 2015; Precopio et al., 2007). This phenotype has been associated with stem-like properties (Betts et al., 2006; Blom et al., 2013; Demkowicz et al., 1996; Fuertes Marraco et al., 2015; Precopio et al., 2007). Accordingly, we found that SARS-CoV-2-specific T cells generated anamnestic responses to cognate antigens in the convalescent phase, characterized by extensive proliferation and polyfunctionality. Of particular note, we detected similar memory T cell responses directed against the internal (nucleocapsid) and surface proteins (membrane and/or spike) in some individuals lacking detectable circulating antibodies specific for SARS-CoV-2. Indeed, almost twice as many healthy individuals who donated blood during the pandemic had memory T cell responses versus antibody responses, implying that seroprevalence as an indicator may underestimate the extent of adaptive immune responses against SARS-CoV-2.

 

[Moomalade74]

I don't think you understand how to read if you still think that when the head author of the study you cited says himself that even people who recovered from COVID should still be vaccinated.

Argument from authority? That's not what that is. Refresh yourself on how to identify logical fallacies.

What is it you think you are getting from a vaccine? That's twice you've not answered the question.

Or to put it another way, what do you think the mechanism of immunity is composed of?

I am using logic to deduce conclusions based on the facts presented. You are arguing from authority literally in your post above.

 

[Rentahamster]

What is it you think you are getting from a vaccine? That's twice you've not answered the question.

Or to put it another way, what do you think the mechanism of immunity is composed of?

I am using logic to deduce conclusions based on the facts presented. You are arguing from authority literally in your post above.

You posted a study that you think justifies concluding that you don't need a vaccine if you had COVID before.

The HEAD AUTHOR of that very same study concludes the opposite of what you think.

That's some logic you got there.

You are arguing from authority literally in your post above.

Your appeal to authority with that reductive cartoon panel doesn't circumnavigate basic logic.

That comic is not an appeal to authority. Try again.

 

[Moomalade74]

You posted a study that you think justifies concluding that you don't need a vaccine if you had COVID before.

The HEAD AUTHOR of that very same study concludes the opposite of what you think.

That's some logic you got there.



That comic is not an appeal to authority. Try again.

Hmm.. your non answer to very direct basic questions, combined with your overly aggressive tone right from the off, leads me to conclude you're not interested in a productive debate and merely trying to bog the conversation down to the level of fudd. I made my point with the linked material and gave my logical opinion as to the implications of the conclusions reached while providing supporting links in a subsequent post.
I won't engage with you any further.

 

[Jezbollah]

Just an observation. There are documented cases of COVID re-infection. How does this occur?

 

[HellforLeather]

This is amazing.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Deleted member 17706]

There was some discussion about studies on mask effectiveness in the other thread, but does anyone know if there have been any studies that just take people who have tested positive for COVID, put them in a controlled environment, and measure the COVID particles in the air when they have a mask on vs. without one on after a certain amount of time?

Seems like that would be the quickest and most surefire way to see if any of these cloth masks/surgical masks, etc. are actually doing anything at all to reduce the viral load in the air of indoor locations, which appears to be the main source of infection spread.

 

[Excess]

PSA: The Ministry of Truth now says you're allowed to talk about COVID being man-made or manufactured in Wuhan, China.

“In light of ongoing investigations into the origin of COVID-19 and in consultation with public health experts, we will no longer remove the claim that COVID-19 is man-made or manufactured from our apps,” Facebook said in a statement on its website Wednesday. - WSJ

Facebook Ends Ban on Posts Asserting Covid-19 Was Man-Made

Facebook has ended its ban on posts asserting Covid-19 was man-made or manufactured, reflecting a deepening debate over the origins of the pandemic.

www.wsj.com

 

[GamingKaiju]

Just an observation. There are documented cases of COVID re-infection. How does this occur?

I think its to do with the different strains and the newer variants having the ability to avoid the bodies antibodies.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[llien]

This article deserves being posted on its own (and being read):

The Considerable, If Circumstantial, Evidence of a Wuhan Lab Leak | National Review

It was never a far-fetched conspiracy theory. Here is everything we know.

www.nationalreview.com

 

[Gp1]

Half in the bag army of dead introduction is obligatory on this topic

 

[BouncyFrag]

This article deserves being posted on its own (and being read):

The Considerable, If Circumstantial, Evidence of a Wuhan Lab Leak | National Review

It was never a far-fetched conspiracy theory. Here is everything we know.

www.nationalreview.com

This goes along well with the article.

 

[Chaplain]

Video: Wuhan lab leak & Cummings's revenge - The Week in 60 Minutes | SpectatorTV (5/27/21, Timestamped)





Edited

 

[Rentahamster]

Hmm.. your non answer to very direct basic questions, combined with your overly aggressive tone right from the off, leads me to conclude you're not interested in a productive debate and merely trying to bog the conversation down to the level of fudd. I made my point with the linked material and gave my logical opinion as to the implications of the conclusions reached while providing supporting links in a subsequent post.
I won't engage with you any further.

I will answer your questions, but I can't because you're dodging my point. Please acknowledge the quote from the head researcher of the study you first quoted and that you understand the implications of it all

Overly aggressive? Please point out how. You're the one who's baselessly claiming that my understanding is inadequate.

I don't think you understand how the immune system works.

And then you also mischaracterize what an "appeal to authority" is, so I corrected you. I'm trying to be helpful here.

So again, please demonstrate that you understand that the study you quoted doesn't actually come to the conclusion that "you don't need a vaccine if you already had COVID", and that the head researcher of that same study disagrees with your "logical conclusion".

 

[ManaByte]

Tennessee woman arrested for speeding through COVID-19 vaccination tent in protest, authorities say

A Tennessee woman was arrested after authorities say she drove her SUV through a COVID vaccination tent, nearly hitting several people while yelling "no vaccine!"

abc7.com

A Tennessee woman was arrested this week after authorities say she drove her SUV through a COVID-19 vaccination tent, nearly hitting several people while yelling "no vaccine."

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Taxexemption]

I doubt it was intentional. If it was intentional I would expect the virus to do more.

 

[Rentahamster]

I doubt it was intentional. If it was intentional I would expect the virus to do more.

Unless it was the combination of intentional + incompetence.

 

[Taxexemption]

Unless it was the combination of intentional + incompetence.

I suppose it's a possibility. I just feel like, would you really create a virus as a weapon for some purpose and not run some experiments first to make sure you are getting the expected result? I guess maybe it was too contagious and that wouldn't have been possible.


Like, what if you were creating a bioweapon that you thought it would lower the population by X, or only effect Y group of people? You don't test it, and it turns out it effects way more than X, and it actually effects groups Y and Z.


If you were trying to for example depopulate the world's older populations to deal with climate change or a pension crisis or something, and instead of killing your expected 5% of old people, you release an experimental virus and it ends up being 50% of everyone, and now you have an economic collapse that will last the rest of our lives. I feel like the risks of creating an experimental virus are too great to not test it. Then again, I just don't think we should be making experimental viruses even if it is for research purposes rather than to make a weapon. That's the problem with a lot of my thinking, I'm risk averse, I can't get into the minds of people who have extreme risk tolerance.

 

[fran.fernandez]

Just saw that bioNtech canceled vaccines to Taiwan as is not considered a country and should go to mainland first.

another ccp puppet…

 

[TheFarter]

I doubt it was intentional. If it was intentional I would expect the virus to do more.

I wouldn't think so either. Unless there was some complete crazy person who wanted to unleash this on the world. Some kind of disgruntled worker. But I doubt it. You never know though!

 

[12Goblins]

There is a 0 percent chance this was intentional.

 

[CGiRanger]

Unless it was the combination of intentional + incompetence.

Always felt like a Chernobyl like scenario to me. Bad safety standards + Bad practices while trying to do something extremely dangerous. China isn't known for its quality control after all.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

That is not "conclusion of the study" at all.
There is exactly ZERO knowledge about how long the cells last in the long run.

And the Maoist "but if they'd last forever, you don't need a jab" conclusion does not need this study at all.

Zero knowledge about the long term effects and effectiveness of the vaccines certainly isn't stopping them from being universally recommended.

I doubt it was intentional. If it was intentional I would expect the virus to do more.

Depends on what they mean by intentional. Was it intentionally made? Perhaps. Was it intentionally released by a rogue worker at the lab? Not impossible. Was it released as some kind of grand conspiracy hatched up by the highest echelons of the CCP? I'm going to guess no on that one.

 

[llien]

Zero knowledge about the long term effects and effectiveness of the vaccines certainly isn't stopping them from being universally recommended.

Indeed.
That doesn't lead anyone to start claiming that the protection effects lasts forever either.

 

[llien]

I doubt it was intentional. If it was intentional I would expect the virus to do more.

And not start next to the Wuhan lab, which we know messed with the virus (and was said to be notoriously bad at handling dangerous stuff)

 

[llien]

Hmm, daily new cases stopped dropping in UK, at around 2-2.5k for nearly two month, with upward trend.

So, Indian edition is not as "harmless" after all? =/

Israel, on the other hand, is at 2 digit new cases per day and have seen steady drop in cases in the last two month.

 

[ManaByte]

I doubt it was intentional. If it was intentional I would expect the virus to do more.

If it was intentional, and proven, then it's WW3 with every country on the planet vs China.

 

[ManaByte]

If you have at least one shot in CA before May 27th you're entered into a lottery:

15 people on June 4th and 15 people on June 11th will win $50K.

10 people on June 15th will win $1.5M.

First 2M who get one shot after May 27th get a $50 gift card.

 

[Guileless]

There was some discussion about studies on mask effectiveness in the other thread, but does anyone know if there have been any studies that just take people who have tested positive for COVID, put them in a controlled environment, and measure the COVID particles in the air when they have a mask on vs. without one on after a certain amount of time?

Seems like that would be the quickest and most surefire way to see if any of these cloth masks/surgical masks, etc. are actually doing anything at all to reduce the viral load in the air of indoor locations, which appears to be the main source of infection spread.c

I think the logistics of doing an experiment like that safely according to liability insurers make it impossible in the US. I saw somewhere, no idea if it's true, that SAGE estimates were that masks reduced risk of infection by 5-10% - obviously that would vary depending on environmental conditions. So not nothing, but not much either.

 

[belmarduk]

I'm getting antsy from lack of travel.
Fully vaccinated and want to take a trip to Germany in November..
Should I book the flight or no?
Surely they would allow Americans by then?

 

[Guileless]

For the people who ask "who cares?" or "what difference does it make?" with regard to possible lab leak, Gerard Baker writes in The Times about the implications if the lab leak was the actual cause:

The Chinese communists, along with much of the commentary class in the West, have hailed China’s response to the virus as yet another example of the superiority of the Chinese model. It’s becoming common in much of the world to contrast the modern pathologies of America — political division, economic stagnation, social unrest — with the steady, unrelenting ascent of China’s state-directed, well-ordered economic and social model.

As we learn more about what happened in China in late 2019, it ought to prompt a rethink. If the virus did leak it will add spectacular incompetence and reckless disregard for safety to a pattern of lies, manipulation and cover-ups; all of which have cost the world, as well as China, unparalleled human and economic damage. The US, especially, has an opportunity to shift perceptions and change the narrative of inexorably diverging fortunes.

 

[Airola]

Depends on what they mean by intentional. Was it intentionally made? Perhaps. Was it intentionally released by a rogue worker at the lab? Not impossible. Was it released as some kind of grand conspiracy hatched up by the highest echelons of the CCP? I'm going to guess no on that one.

Could also be that there was some sort of a "conspiracy plot", or at least they had entertained the thought of using something like this to gain whatever. And this was a complete accident, but as soon as they found out this had happened some people from the higher-up took advantage of the situation.

Or maybe this wasn't part of any existing plot, but when it started they started to plan a new plot.

I mean, they certainly knew a lot more than they told anyone and they allowed it to spread off their country, and they lied about all of it. So I wouldn't be surprised if there were some people in their government or army or wherever who went "hold on.... let's think..." and either plotted some new plan or decided to activate some already plotted plan but with modifications as this came by surprise to them too. It could also very well be that the bioweapon claim the dissident chinawoman made very early on and the other dissident chinaman later also talked about is true, but that this still got started by a pure accident. So it would explain why they had trouble getting it under control because it came by surprise for them too, but would also explain why they allowed it to spread out from their country and why they've been so secretive about it and even lied about it (and even made claims that it's a US bioweapon - maybe accusing others what they are doing themselves).

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Hmm, daily new cases stopped dropping in UK, at around 2-2.5k for nearly two month, with upward trend.

So, Indian edition is not as "harmless" after all? =/

Israel, on the other hand, is at 2 digit new cases per day and have seen steady drop in cases in the last two month.

Israel is the one I'm keeping an eye on. Right now, their numbers are basically the same as they were at this time last year, which could point to a seasonal trend. If they stay this low through the summer and early fall, then I think they can declare victory via vaccines.