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[Guilty_AI]

Many other old and obese people appear in court, why should he be given special treatment?

They shouldn't either, especially if it involves travelling halfway across the world.

 

[Denton]

I am reading this blog by the wolfire guy:

Regarding the Valve class action - Wolfire Games Blog

Dear gamers and game developers, I would like to explain why Wolfire Games is seeking to represent game developers in a class action suit against Valve Corporation. I felt that I had no choice, because I believe gamers and game developers are being harmed by Valve's conduct. While I am ...

blog.wolfire.com

Seems like it all hinges on

But when I asked Valve about this plan, they replied that they would remove Overgrowth from Steam if I allowed it to be sold at a lower price anywhere, even from my own website without Steam keys and without Steam’s DRM.

I find this claim really hard to believe considering Valve does not even seem to enforce this for games sold via steam keys, hence there being games sold cheaper than on steam on other shops, pretty much constantly, even with steam keys.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I am reading this blog by the wolfire guy:

Regarding the Valve class action - Wolfire Games Blog

Dear gamers and game developers, I would like to explain why Wolfire Games is seeking to represent game developers in a class action suit against Valve Corporation. I felt that I had no choice, because I believe gamers and game developers are being harmed by Valve's conduct. While I am ...

blog.wolfire.com

Seems like it all hinges on



I find this claim really hard to believe considering Valve does not even seem to enforce this for games sold via steam keys, hence there being games sold cheaper than on steam on other shops, pretty much constantly, even with steam keys.

There's even more if you read the comments:

Your whole case sits on the following claim:
"But when I asked Valve about this plan, they replied that they would remove Overgrowth from Steam if I allowed it to be sold at a lower price anywhere, even from my own website without Steam keys and without Steam’s DRM"

Can you elaborate on who exactly is this mysterious "they"? In what way did you communicate and with whom? Why is this vital information missing from the lawsuit?

I'm asking this because when communicating with in the past, I got the exact opposite response - that their parity terms only apply to 3rd party sales distributing their Steamworks keys, and that's reasonable because they don't charge commission for them.

This is also what the Steam distribution agreement itself specifies, and what countless other real-life cases demonstrate (Indie Gala transitioned to DRM-free giveaways of games that are also available on Steam a for a few years now). So to me it sounds like you either misunderstood the answer you got, "they" misunderstood your question, or you spoke with someone on no actual authority to tell you that.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

The biggest twat in this lawsuit is somehow ScHlAuChi . Get a life, man.

I´m a twat becasue I have a different opinion and I explain why?
Is NeoGAF Resetera now where wrongthink is not allowed?

 

[darrylgorn]

I played overgrowth. It's pretty mid and overpriced.

 

[IFireflyl]

I´m a twat becasue I have a different opinion and I explain why?
Is NeoGAF Resetera now where wrongthink is not allowed?

Your "explanation" is based on your feelings. It's extremely annoying to have a discussion with someone who treats their feelings as an infallible source. You also keep referring to an NDA, and nobody on this forum believes that you have signed some NDA and have secret insider knowledge of the situation.

 

[BlackTron]

Of course I did, as you just repeated Valve´s claims that arent reflected in their contracts - but you would know that if you had seen those!
And if you didnt, you just talk out of your ass and not based on facts!

7$ on Steam
17.60$ on GOG - clearly cheaper!

What happens when the sale expires? Does this post also expire?

 

[IFireflyl]

If you would have bothered to read the thread, you would have realized it has nothing to do with feelings at all.
And what you believe or not believe is not my concern. I´m not the one on trial here!

 

[Three]

---

The thing is, the re-opening of this case isn't over Valve's control within their store, but that allegedly they were trying to control prices outside the Steam enviroment, which is what the dev has to prove now as the 'evidence' they previously brought wasn't enough to confirm such practices were in place.

Price parity is outside the steam store like PS store but they are talking about within the steam environment and PSN environment. Their grievance seems to be with steam keys so within that environment but outside of that store, much like PSN digital keys sold outside the PS store but within the PSN environment. I don't think they are going to win but this is part of their argument :

"Removing all doubts about its policing power, Valve also 'reserves the right' to 'deny keys' or 'revoke key requesting privileges' if they 'disadvantage' 'Steam customers'," the lawsuit read. "And while this language is couched in terms of protecting 'Steam customers,' this is a charade. Those customers are the same ones that can (and do) purchase Steam Keys on other storefronts besides the Steam Store. They are harmed when they cannot find games for lower prices elsewhere because Valve has restrained price competition through its Price Parity Provision.

 

[Alexios]

The consumers pay these fees, NOT the devs or pubs, just as the consumers pay for any product they buy + the seller's, middleman's, whoever else's cost & profit. Just increase your intended price by 15% or however much you feel gets you enough per sale against the fee (as if you don't already, lol), that difference isn't what will make or break your sales. Consumers chose where to buy. It's their money, they gladly give 30% to Valve and refuse to give 12% of it to Epic or any shitty platforms. Idk what devs/pubs care and try to force people where to give their money (rhetorical, obviously if they could run a shitty service from their garage and get people to pay more for their games they'd do it and not bat an eye at the inconvenience, frustration and issues consumers encounter but hey, consumers know better and have standards now, consumers chose Steam over piracy you bozos).

Anyway, the lawsuit will fall flat because it's based on lies as has been pointed out already, literally anyone can go sign up as a developer right now and go read the agreement in full (I believe you'll only need to pay $100 when actually publishing a game as it's just a small deterrent for dodgy folks and you get it back when you sell $1000 total) so Wolfire had no reason to even ever ask Valve how to sell non Steam key versions of their games. Perhaps there was some miscommunication there in one e-mail or whatever and the responder thought he's asking about Steam keys since there's no reason to ask otherwise and he never got hold of anyone to actually clear this up and now runs with it, but that's doubtful too, obviously. That original blog post is hilariously dumb, of course that case fell flat, even if he managed to get a lawyer to reword it into an actual (false) accusation since.

Now if he hadn't asked Valve at all and went by the agreement and sold his non Steam keys for less (like countless others have done) and Valve then scolded him or banned him from Steam, he'd have a case, but nothing like that ever happened to him or anybody else and it will never happen, duh.

Gabe will destroy him and folks blinded by ignorance, fanboyism, selfishness and entitlement will attack him for doing so to an indie dev, like he's supposed to change the whole company to please a little bitch that made bank selling tech demos and Steam keys in humble and now complains too.

I mean, it's a class action lawsuit and all they managed to get hold of is "a game developer and two other people", lmao. You'd think loads more devs and pubs would have jumped at this amazing chance to get their due since the case originally became known. Maybe ScHlAuChi is one of two, lol.

PS: it's 25% after a threshold, 20% after another, 0% from Steam key resellers boxed or digital (this means any single sale in such a way lowers the 30% by a sliver even if it's a small portion of sales done that way so if a game is sold outside Steam itself at all then they can't speak for 30%, they have to do the math and tell us exactly the remaining % otherwise they're dishonest on purpose), a gazillion tools at one's disposal for analysis, marketing & selling to other countries (including free on demand dispatch for cash payments in some!). Most importantly, happy customers. It's worth it, clowns.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Price parity is outside the steam store like PS store but they are talking about within the steam environment and PSN environment. Their grievance seems to be with steam keys so within that environment but outside of that store, much like PSN digital keys sold outside the PS store but within the PSN environment. I don't think they are going to win but this is part of their argument :

Yeah, but that part of the lawsuit the dev already lost. For the new lawsuit the judge is going to focus on the supposed forced price-parity involving non-steam games.

For Sony its slightly different because Sony controls all digital sales of PS games, unlike Valve and Steam with PC games.

 

[drotahorror]

I released games on Steam - so I did see it, but I cant say for sure if it was changed.
But I can say that the lawsuit would have been thrown out if there was really nothing to it.

I'm sure your games are trash, but what games have you released so I can make sure to ignore them and never even accidentally give you a dime?

 

[RoboFu]

Ohh those greedy popular digital stores that give nobodies a platform and advertise their crappy games. How dare they want any money from the poor sickly developers.

 

[SmokedMeat]

I find this claim really hard to believe considering Valve does not even seem to enforce this for games sold via steam keys, hence there being games sold cheaper than on steam on other shops, pretty much constantly, even with steam keys.

Bingo. Steam games are known for being cheaper on third party stores, where Valve takes a 0% cut.

This is a disgruntled developer that’s released a garbage game Overgrowth that no one wants.

 

[Kenpachii]

He can sell the game on his own website.

Gaben has to travel half the world for this clown is ridicilous.

 

[SmokedMeat]

7$ on Steam
17.60$ on GOG - clearly cheaper!

The developer sets the prices.

The same way Epic’s “Black Friday Sale” is a joke. Because of Tim’s 33% off coupon, no one’s putting their games on sale!! It’s all low budget trash that’s on sale.
Are you going to blame Valve for that too?

Blame Valve because developers charge a little more on GoG because the store’s DRM free?

Please disclose what “game” you released on Steam so I can put it on ignore.

 

[hlm666]

Oh and you think Valve wouldnt be able to do all that with only a 20% share?
They have hundreds of billions in the bank!

If we are gonna do this lets at least get our data right.

"Steam: Steam takes 30 percent of all sales made until the first $10 million. That cut becomes 25 percent when a developer sells between $10 million and $50 million. For every sale after the first $50 million, Steam only takes a 20 percent cut."

A guide to platform fees

Platforms can build a business, but the businesses have to pay.

www.theverge.com

 

[LordCBH]

What a stupid ass lawsuit.

 

[Kaleinc]

What you need to know:
clown devs like ScHlAuChi who have time shitpost on internet forums/twitter all day instead of working on their shitty asset flips are the biggest defense force for epic shit store

 

[Denton]

"Steam: Steam takes 30 percent of all sales made until the first $10 million. That cut becomes 25 percent when a developer sells between $10 million and $50 million. For every sale after the first $50 million, Steam only takes a 20 percent cut."

Not even that is the whole story, since Valve lets developers generate steam keys and sell them outside of Steam, and Valve gets 0% from those while still paying for the steam infrastructure these games are using.

Then there are prepaid steam gift cards. During GDC Valve revealed, that in Asia 90% of transactions aren't made with credit cards/paypal, they are made with payment options that involve cash. In Japan most players add funds to their Steam wallet with retail steam cards, and it costs Valve 10-15% to distribute them. That means their actual cut there is closer to 5-20%, instead of 20-30%

And lastly, the 30% cut on steam means that other shops that sell steam keys, like GMG or Fanatical etc, can provide discounts to customers even on new games by reducing 10-20% of their own cut in favour of the customers, in order to attract them. If Valve's cut was smaller, these third party stores would have no reason to exist, because they could not provide these discounts, and they would lose their customers. And we would get more expensive games. No more Robocop at launch with 25% discount.

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

I've been offered a chance to sign on to the steam class action and I always refuse, because steam is great and is good for the industry. The only other non shit player in the industry is gog.

 

[Shodai]

Epic only wants 12%


He is, when Steam is the market! Steam has over 75% market share, which is the defiintion of a monopoly.

That is not even remotely close to the definition of a monopoly.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

That is not even remotely close to the definition of a monopoly.

Monopolization Defined

The antitrust laws prohibit conduct by a single firm that unreasonably restrains competition by creating or maintaining monopoly power.

www.ftc.gov

Quote:
A "monopolist" is a firm with significant and durable market power. Courts look at the firm's market share, but typically do not find monopoly power if the firm (or a group of firms acting in concert) has less than 50 percent of the sales of a particular product or service within a certain geographic area."

 

[GnomeChimpsky]

The irony here is that Valve is 10x more consumer and developer friendly than any of it's competitors.

 

[justiceiro]

That's actually the attitude of phone scammers in 3rd world countries; they think stealing from the rest of us is robbing the rich, thus not a crime. Fuck those people.

WTF??? Having to go to the courthouse = getting scammed???? C'mon!

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

ScHlAuChi

Well, I have just confirmed you have experience in the industry. You've been in this industry since the PS2 days.

Hats off to you.

 

[BlackTron]

I´m a twat becasue I have a different opinion and I explain why?
Is NeoGAF Resetera now where wrongthink is not allowed?

Wrongthink is allowed. However, you might get called out for it.

You have some embarrassing posts in this thread.

 

[Peroroncino]

Never do business with furries, that bunch is nothing but trouble.

 

[hlm666]

Not even that is the whole story, since Valve lets developers generate steam keys and sell them outside of Steam, and Valve gets 0% from those while still paying for the steam infrastructure these games are using.

Then there are prepaid steam gift cards. During GDC Valve revealed, that in Asia 90% of transactions aren't made with credit cards/paypal, they are made with payment options that involve cash. In Japan most players add funds to their Steam wallet with retail steam cards, and it costs Valve 10-15% to distribute them. That means their actual cut there is closer to 5-20%, instead of 20-30%

And lastly, the 30% cut on steam means that other shops that sell steam keys, like GMG or Fanatical etc, can provide discounts to customers even on new games by reducing 10-20% of their own cut in favour of the customers, in order to attract them. If Valve's cut was smaller, these third party stores would have no reason to exist, because they could not provide these discounts, and they would lose their customers. And we would get more expensive games. No more Robocop at launch with 25% discount.

On top of that I remember reading about egs not accepting all forms of payment steam does because they have higher transaction fees and that hits the poorer countries/regions more because they tend to use those payment methods more.

 

[StereoVsn]

On top of that I remember reading about egs not accepting all forms of payment steam does because they have higher transaction fees and that hits the poorer countries/regions more because they tend to use those payment methods more.

Epic exclusives with VR also use SteamVR. I am sure Epic will come out with proper VR platform any day now.

They also often utilize Steam Forums. Oh, and oh boy, we just now how much Epic is contributing toward Proton and Linux support. I am sure that 12% fee is quite enough to support it.

 

[lyan]

The reason that Valve has the market share is they plow the money into actually improving their platform. That results in outstanding and improving input support, SteamVR, Steamworks features, integrated payment processing fees, Linux support, actually usable and improving discovery features and a ton more.

Oh yes, the great steaminput that has wasted countless devs hours.

 

[StereoVsn]

Oh yes, the great steaminput that has wasted countless devs hours.

??? Not sure what you mean, but Steam Input is amazing. At least for actual gamers. I never heard it being particularly difficult to utilize through Steamworks as a developer.

 

[lyan]

??? Not sure what you mean, but Steam Input is amazing. At least for actual gamers. I never heard it being particularly difficult to utilize through Steamworks as a developer.

Until they receive reports of input not working and realize it's not their fault but steaminput messing with the most widely used library in the industry. Most gamers won't care as usual because "works on my machine".

 

[Dirk Benedict]

Until they receive reports of input not working and realize it's not their fault but steaminput messing with the most widely used library in the industry. Most gamers won't care as usual because "works on my machine".

I use a Mayflash and Wii U Controller Pros. Never going back. They work with EVERYTHING. Nothing else needed. They just Work!~!

 

[Lucie Goosey]

Guy is literally old and obese

Yeah, technically speaking, he's one of the most at risk demographics.

Although at this point in time he's probably already had Co-Vid or he's been vaccinated, so it's a moot point.

 

[Lucie Goosey]

Im not a laywer either, and I dont actually think Wolffire has a good chance to win, this is a US court after all. The US´s anti trust track record in the last decade is super weak.
At the end of the day, I hope if Wolffire wins Steam will get more competition and gets better. And if Wolffire loses, well nothing will change - Status Q stays intact.

The mistake people here make is to think that I´m "Anti Steam", becasue i critizise Valve, but that isnt the case - it is a good platform for me as a dev.
But more competition would make Steam even better by forcing them to lower dev fees and having better service.
I dont see why wanting that is some sort of antoganistic move that warrants me getting attacked verbally becasue my opinion differs....
After all I thought NeoGAF isnt a bubble like ResetEra where wrong opinions are forbidden!

I think the reason you're getting so much pushback on your opinions isn't because people are trying to silence you (although I could be wrong), it's because some of the things you say seem disengenous.

It's not my place to tell you what to do, but no one here is required to like you, or make you feel welcome. You're definitely not a victim of anything but your own consequences and ability to relate to others.

I'm with you though in that I believe healthy competition is better for consumers and our hobby as a whole, and if lawsuits like these help with that, more power to them.

That I don't actually own any of my games on Steam and other platforms is my only real problem these days.

 

[Hudo]

This is why we won't get Half-Life 3.

 

[CuteFaceJay]

Many other old and obese people appear in court, why should he be given special treatment?

if Gabe dies then Steam will no longer be pure

 

[Astray]

if Gabe dies then Steam will no longer be pure

Yeah but the covid thing is honestly bonkers and likely an effort to not have to take a long-ass trip from NZ to US.