GymWolf
Member
A bit too harsh, lies of p is more linear sure but it still has better level design than most souls clones, and way better than nioh saga and dark souls 2.
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BbMajor7th
Member
Not sure to be honest. Some of Nioh 2's levels are solid, but being level-based the aims are slightly different - not a strong point for the series though, I agree. Dark Souls 2 has good and bad: areas like No Man's Wharf, Huntsman's Copse, and Heide's Tower suck big time, but Lost Bastille, Earthen Peak and Forest of Fallen Giants (once you reach the Fort) are genuinely great.
I don't think Lies of P ever hits the same kind of highs - Vinigni's Factory is the best to my mind, but it has none of the layered, labyrinthine complexity of Lost Bastille and doesn't come within a hundred yards of FromSoft's usual quality, let alone the dizzying heights of Lyendell or Undead Settlement. The lack of enemy or encounter variety is a huge part of this too: Lies of P has less imagination here than even Dark Souls and compared to DS3 or Bloodborne, it's just leagues apart.
I still think it's a very good game, but it doesn't even eclipse the worst of FromSoft. Dark Souls II has legitimate failings but does so much more than any other game in the series to expand the Souls formula (for which it gets next to no credit) that, Flawed as it is, it's a far more important and impressive game than Lies of P.
GymWolf
Member
I mean of course it doesn't reach the highs of fromsoft, but it is their first game, from had many games to perfect the formula.
For me it is a great game and i love the whole puppet theme more than yet another fantasy medieval soul.
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BbMajor7th
Member
Well yeah, this is all I'm saying. It's not on a par with FromSoft largely for this reason: level design is one of the key aspects of what makes Souls games so special and they devised so much of that language themselves. It might have been Round 8's first game and it is impressive for that reason, but it's worth keeping in mind that so much of the work has been done for them - they had a huge body of work to draw on, not just FS's own games, but many of the imitators that have come along. Even compared to Demon's Souls it comes up short and that's not a great look all things considered.
Agree the aesthetic is very cool, even if the concept is Carlo Collodi meets Isaac Asimov.
NeverYouMind
Member
Lost Bastille, Earthen Peak, and Forest of the Fallen Giants all suck big time. Vegnini's factory is the only lame indoor level in the whole game... Dark Souls 3 is the worst souls game by a wide margin and its story elements are awful. It is like you are putting the most mediocre shit on a pedestal.
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Arachnid
Member
I was onboard right up until you slandered Dark Souls 3. It's the best Souls game. Sure, 1 has more general impact and whatnot, but DS3 has, by far, the most consistent and quality set of bosses in the series. It also hit just the right mix of levels vs open world for exploration.
Agreed with the beginning though. Lies of P level design straight up murders anything in Dark Souls 2 except maybe DLC. I'm not seeing what he means. I see all kinds of verticality and mazelike structure in levels, going from rooftops to sewers to bridges (etc...). It's maybe not DS3/1 or Sekiro level, but it matches the others.
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NeverYouMind
Member
Dark Souls 3 is awful because it has enemies at Bloodborne speed and aggression but a less responsive avatar than Demon Souls. Also, the bosses are predominantly awful. Who thought that attacking bracelets or puss filled sacks on oversized bosses was engaging for example? Or how about the imaginitive just jump and thrust downward dragon boss? What about those godawful swamps that take up nearly a quarter of the game and are only made tolerable by a weapon art that allows you to leapfrog like a jackass?
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Hot5pur
Member
I will jump in with my hot take on the souls games.
Demon's Souls - awesome
Dark souls 1 - OK
Dark souls 2 - Good
Dark souls 3 - Repetitive/exhausting
Bloodborne - Magical
Sekiro - Boring and frustrating
Elden Ring - Masterpiece
Where does Lies of P slot in?
I think I liked the original lords of the fallen because the combat was much more varied and interesting than souls.
Souls has amazing atmosphere, sound design, kinda subpar graphics, and a very clunky combat system with meh character animation.
Perhaps it's for atmosphere and to make you feel helpless.
NiOh games have a nice combat system but the huge number of drops, the horrendous story/characters, and the general repetitiveness and simplicity of the levels kinda makes it meh.
Wo Long was a big step back in my opinion, couldn't even finish it.
Demon's Souls - awesome
Dark souls 1 - OK
Dark souls 2 - Good
Dark souls 3 - Repetitive/exhausting
Bloodborne - Magical
Sekiro - Boring and frustrating
Elden Ring - Masterpiece
Where does Lies of P slot in?
I think I liked the original lords of the fallen because the combat was much more varied and interesting than souls.
Souls has amazing atmosphere, sound design, kinda subpar graphics, and a very clunky combat system with meh character animation.
Perhaps it's for atmosphere and to make you feel helpless.
NiOh games have a nice combat system but the huge number of drops, the horrendous story/characters, and the general repetitiveness and simplicity of the levels kinda makes it meh.
Wo Long was a big step back in my opinion, couldn't even finish it.
BbMajor7th
Member
We clearly have very different definitions of what makes strong level design. I have issues with Dark Souls III - it's far from perfect - but it does have some excellent level design. Venigni's Factory is one of the few well-interconnected, cohesive areas that read well visually due to the use of visual direction, have a reasonable amount of encounter and enemy variety, as well as memorable trap areas that make for engaging exploration. Certainly more interesting than something like the Grand Exhibition Gallery, which has every little to do aside from flatten a few enemies, drop a few ladders and answer a phone.
All three have great recursive design that rewards exploration - lots of interesting unique secrets that are layered one on another and plenty of 'clues' visible from the golden path that entice exploration. There're lots of optional, missable areas, unique and quite important vendors that are smartly hidden (in all three) and smart environment hazards that make for engaging exploration.
Don't get this - DSIII is one of the easier in the series.
Like all Souls games the bosses range from excellent to gimmicky. The Curse-Rotted Greatwood is totally optional, Ancient Wyvern is also a standard puzzle boss - that variety has existed since the Demon's Souls days.
Poison swamps in a Souls game? Get outta here!
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NeverYouMind
Member
Somewhere between Awesome and Magical. For better or worse it is more linear than all of those.
Clearly. To me it doesn't matter how elaborately a factory or laboratory is designed as I would much rather explore a bunch of visually distinct shops and houses on a street or a castle/mansion with different decour for its rooms. Hazards and secret areas are only neat when they can be counted on one hand as any more serve as an annoyance that creates navigational difficulties.We clearly have very different definitions of what makes strong level design. I have issues with Dark Souls III - it's far from perfect - but it does have some excellent level design. Venigni's Factory is one of the few well-interconnected, cohesive areas that read well visually due to the use of visual direction, have a reasonable amount of encounter and enemy variety, as well as memorable trap areas that make for engaging exploration. Certainly more interesting than something like the Grand Exhibition Gallery, which has every little to do aside from flatten a few enemies, drop a few ladders and answer a phone.
All three have great recursive design that rewards exploration - lots of interesting unique secrets that are layered one on another and plenty of 'clues' visible from the golden path that entice exploration. There're lots of optional, missable areas, unique and quite important vendors that are smartly hidden (in all three) and smart environment hazards that make for engaging exploration.
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NeverYouMind
Member
DS3 DLC is the most difficult and drawn out bullshit in the franchise. Name a puzzle boss in the previous games that could be taken out in one hit and I am not talking one shot builds. DS3 should advertise itself with "Now with 200% more of what you hated in the previous games!" and be done with it.
BbMajor7th
Member
Lies of P level design lacks any real complexity. Every area is relatively small and self-contained with limited enemy variety, very few hidden areas or interesting hazards and no real visual distinction. All the streets blend into one another, with few visual cues that make it easy to visually map the layout as you go. It's all painfully linear too. Compare exploring DS3's Undead Settlement with - say - Elysion Boulevard. There's just no comparison.
Totally disagree - secrets reward exploration and replayability while hazards create variety by changing how you approach things. A poison swamp, a darkened tomb, narrow walkways over precipitous drops, floor is lava, mob enemies, that frenzy eye-ball in Nightmare of Mensis. the entire of Sen's Fortress... like this is a foundational aspect of Souls-like design: Blight Town, Sen's Fortress, The Catacombs, Tomb of the Giants, Demon Ruins, Darkroot Gardens... the first thing that comes to most people's minds when you mention those places are the environmental hazards. Different areas always have different environmental hazards that keep you on your toes. It creates tension and engages you.
Lies of P has them in some places, but they're so easily ignored for the most part - they're minor inconvenience-level stuff.
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GymWolf
Member
I don't know, the areas are smaller but i feel the same thing when i explore lop that i feel when i explore in fromsoft games, very rare for souls clones to get that right.
And i audibly gasped when at the end of zone 4 (or 5) you are again into the hotel, that is some great level design imo.
Maybe it's the honeymoon period, but i feel like they did one hell of a job with this game in almost every aspect.
Yeah enemy variety is not as high as fromsoft, but the visual fidelity and performance are way higher, fromsoft ignore that and use that optimization time to put more actual content but holy shit it feels so nice to play a soulslike with almost AAA production values that play like butter.
And i audibly gasped when at the end of zone 4 (or 5) you are again into the hotel, that is some great level design imo.
Maybe it's the honeymoon period, but i feel like they did one hell of a job with this game in almost every aspect.
Yeah enemy variety is not as high as fromsoft, but the visual fidelity and performance are way higher, fromsoft ignore that and use that optimization time to put more actual content but holy shit it feels so nice to play a soulslike with almost AAA production values that play like butter.
NeverYouMind
Member
I have played Dark Souls III to completion twice and played through that area three times that. I would describe Undead Settlement as a shithole that serves as a hoarder's wet dream. A bunch of mandatory loops that delay progress and unfortunately a big checklist of important collectibles that make it an even bigger timesink.
BbMajor7th
Member
I don't know why you'd hate-fuck a game you think is awful to completion twice or play through Undead Settlement six times thinking it was a time-sink shithole. Honestly, based on that response alone, I'm not even sure why you'd bother with FromSoft games. All their shit is like this (except Dark Souls II - that bad-boy has you covered).
Dragon God in Demon's Souls is basically the same. Hide behind some pillars; press a button, hide behind some pillars; hit a button; whack it in the face while it's out cold: one Arch Demon slain. You can kill it at basically any level with any weapon or build.
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BbMajor7th
Member
Agreed on the technical aspect - for a small team, they did an outstanding job. Haven't hit a single bug or so much as a dropped frame. FromSoft really could take note of that.
Then don't play it, nobody forces you.
NeverYouMind
Member
i. I tried different builds with different avatars as I usually do with these create a character games. I actually enjoy doing runs in Scholar of the First Sin because I can have a varied and equally satisfying combat experience with different builds while speedrunning the hazards and grabbing the important stuff. Dark Souls 3 fails on both fronts.
ii. No, the cannons down the behemoth in Demon Souls but the player has to deal the final blows. It is more satisfying than Bed of Chaos and Ancient Wyvern in that regard. Also, it feels like vengeance if you got through the prologue.
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