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It’s time to explode the myth of “McJobs”

Javaman

Member
I think most articles that raise the alarm of rising AI make the point that its only just beginning. Looking at current job trends and saying everything's fine when the big break through might be just 5 years down the road is extremely short sided IMO.

The "big break through" had been just around the corner for over 30 years. I remember as a kid hearing how robots were going to take over jobs soon and I'm over 40. It's a gradual multi decade thing that people are going to be able to adapt to.

Look at how many new jobs have been created in the last 25 years just due to the proliferation of the internet. Everything from infrustructure design and support to programmers to artists, sales, etc. None of these tens of millions of jobs even existed more than 25 years ago.
 

Razorback

Member
It's really simple but people keep missing the point.

Replacing physical labor is not the same as replacing cognitive labor. Once you replace that there's nothing left for humans to do.
 

Foffy

Banned
It's really simple but people keep missing the point.

Replacing physical labor is not the same as replacing cognitive labor. Once you replace that there's nothing left for humans to do.

I don't agree with that point in full, but I've always said our problem, first and foremost, was jobs.

I can imagine a situation where there is much work to do, but few jobs to have. This is what creates the problem we face, because of view of "real work" is really the vice that automation, precarity, and the loss of jobs actually creates.

So long as we believe the objective goal for human beings is to live for jobs, we are slowly but surely strangling ourselves to death. This goes beyond the issues of technology, and those alone are clear red lights of the mistakes we're making.
 

Sunster

Member
I think another huge factor is that people who are actually doing okay aren't really going around talking about how things are actually pretty good for them. Which is not to say the people on the losing end of this change are wrong to raise their concerns, and we should do more to help people. But it is fallacious to extrapolate from them that the entire economy is doing poorly.

we have a tendency in this country to not talk about our salaries.
 

Almighty

Member
Well I will agree with him that automation probably won't happen in 20 years, which seems to be what his argument is mostly aiming to refute. Though the argument of we don't see it happening right now therefore it won't happen seems weak to me. I am also not a big fan of X has always happened in history therefore X will happen again. As it seems very disingenuous to me to compare say AI replacing human brain power to mechanization making it so less people had to bring in the harvest for example.
 

dgdas9

Member
I see a major flaw in their argument: the incessant need for higher and higher levels of education in order to just achieve a middle class lifestyle. This will inevitably lead to disaster, as the vast majority of the population will either not have the motivation or capacity to obtain that level of technical knowledge and know-how.

As the labor pool increases in size due to globalization and includes highly educated, highly skilled workers from poorer countries where education is highly subsidized or free, native American workers, on average, will fall further and further behind, being underemployed or exiting the workforce altogether. In this paradigm of a race to the bottom in terms of wages and standard of living across the population as a whole, Bernie Sanders is the only person stating what needs to happen: Americans need access to highly subsidized or free higher education in order to compete and not start life with crippling debt.

1. Couldn't you have said the same before as well? If I were to go back to the 1600s and tell you every job in the future would need a basic degree of education, wouldn't you answer that most of the population wouldn't 'have the motivation or capacity to obtain that level of knowledge'?

2. Isn't it reasonable to assume that while globalisation progresses the highly educated labour poll increases, but the demand for highly educated labour will also increase because of the additional income being spent in increasingly complex products?

Well then I'll basically say this. Once machines can do everything humans can do, except better, (which they eventually will) the only job left to humans will be... being human. People will pay to be specifically serviced by a human just for the sake of... well... nostalgia? Even then, at some point machines may be better at representing what we expect to be human than real humans and for cheaper, so we may be out of that job as well.

David Ricardo, talked this very issue in the 1800s, though he was thinking about free trade. From a quick visit to wikipedia:

"David Ricardo developed the classical theory of comparative advantage in 1817 to explain why countries engage in international trade even when one country's workers are more efficient at producing every single good than workers in other countries.' Now replace another country's workers with machines, and the argument still holds. The idea is, even if machines are better than us at every single thing, we can still lower the price of our services to make ourselves competitive.
 

tokkun

Member
Once machines can do everything humans can do, except better, (which they eventually will)

This is hardly a foregone conclusion. We have not even scratched the surface of how we could enhance humans, be it through advanced learning systems, genetic engineering, or cybernetics.

There are still some things that human brains do far better than neural nets at a basic level, so it is hardly clear that the potential of such systems exceeds the potential of the brain.
 

Foffy

Banned
This is hardly a foregone conclusion. We have not even scratched the surface of how we could enhance humans, be it through advanced learning systems, genetic engineering, or cybernetics.

There are still some things that human brains do far better than neural nets at a basic level, so it is hardly clear that the potential of such systems exceeds the potential of the brain.

The issue is most jobs are repetitive, and that's the easiest ground to start growing the sort of superceding capabilities that make technology the spook that it is.

It's one thing to think we can make AI that can talk about nonduality or something, but it is far more feasible to imagine a lot of what people do and get paid to do as something absolutely plausible to replicate.
 
If the benefits of productivity gains were actually equitably distributed to all of society we wouldn't have to have this conversation.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
It's worth noting that automating trucks won't just affect truckers, but also maintenance guys, all those restaurants/gas stations in the middle of nowhere, etc. Those actually provide a lot of jobs for rural communities.
Taxi drivers, Bus drivers, etc. Not to mention that the software that runs a self driving car can just as easily run a selfdriving forklift. Warehousing in its entirety is at risk as a job. The difference in automation compared to industrialization is that the farm tractor can only do farm tractor things, but AI can follow you to the next industry.
 

Javaman

Member
Taxi drivers, Bus drivers, etc. Not to mention that the software that runs a self driving car can just as easily run a selfdriving forklift. Warehousing in its entirety is at risk as a job. The difference in automation compared to industrialization is that the farm tractor can only do farm tractor things, but AI can follow you to the next industry.

They have fully automated warehouses already, yet regular fork lift ones are still being built all the time. The MASSIVE investment isn't worth it to lots of companies. This isn't going to change anytime soon. You can hire people to work decades before paying off an automation project, especially in smaller companies. It all depends on many factors.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Taxi drivers, Bus drivers, etc. Not to mention that the software that runs a self driving car can just as easily run a selfdriving forklift. Warehousing in its entirety is at risk as a job. The difference in automation compared to industrialization is that the farm tractor can only do farm tractor things, but AI can follow you to the next industry.

We have seen technological revolutions affecting nearly every industry before though. You mention tractors, but tractors are a specific application of the internal combustion engine. These sorts of engines were applied to a lot of industries. Electricity is another example of a technology that was applied to a lot of different industries, and then computers are another example.

There is hope that AI could be the next technology that is very broadly applicable that can increase productivity in a lot of industries. But the statistics show that this has failed to happen thus far.

This is the topic of a great Planet Money episode.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
I am pretty shocked that Vox published this, because everything else they've published on this topic for the last 2 years has been the neo-luddite "robots are takin our jobs and there's no hope!" platform, which has frustrating perseverance on sites like NeoGaf, despite being based in nothing but populist fear-mongering.

Ezra is pretty well known for pushing back on this on his podcasts. He's even used that Ford example a number of times that I've heard personally.
 
Just fucking automize 40% of the workforce, regulate the market, introduce free health care and universal basic income for all. Now you got more people earning money, being able to spend more money, creating more demand for more products, thus creating more jobs.

Basically, do the opposite of what conservatives want. Doesn't even have to be what I'm suggesting, just don't do what conservatives want.
 

voOsh

Member
Automation should be an amazing thing to look forward to and would be one of humanity's greatest accomplishments. But instead it will be used for exploitation and to further divide the ultra-wealthy from everyone else.
 

tokkun

Member
The issue is most jobs are repetitive, and that's the easiest ground to start growing the sort of superceding capabilities that make technology the spook that it is.

It's one thing to think we can make AI that can talk about nonduality or something, but it is far more feasible to imagine a lot of what people do and get paid to do as something absolutely plausible to replicate.

This is really only a short-term risk, though. In the long term we should not want humans to have to spend their time doing meaningless repetitive tasks.

And I'm very skeptical of robots being able to do many of these low-skill jobs less expensively than humans in the near future. You might be able to design a robot that could fold clothes and return them from dressing rooms at Target, but it will be more expensive and have a bigger environmental cost than just hiring a human to do it. The fact that society has been designed around human labor tends to give us a built-in advantage in a lot of tasks.
 

Laiza

Member
I am pretty shocked that Vox published this, because everything else they've published on this topic for the last 2 years has been the neo-luddite "robots are takin our jobs and there's no hope!" platform, which has frustrating perseverance on sites like NeoGaf, despite being based in nothing but populist fear-mongering.
It's based on extrapolating current trends.

And this article does fucking nothing to discount it. Especially when they open up by handwaving the issue by extrapolating past trends to future trends (as though that means anything when we're talking about going from manual labor automation to cognitive automation).

The problem isn't something you can just handwave away by pointing at the past and saying "look, they made it out fine!" This time things are different, and it'd be really great if we could just, maybe, come to terms with that fact and work towards pushing society in a direction where things won't be quite so dire when shit hits the fan.

The "big break through" had been just around the corner for over 30 years. I remember as a kid hearing how robots were going to take over jobs soon and I'm over 40. It's a gradual multi decade thing that people are going to be able to adapt to.

Look at how many new jobs have been created in the last 25 years just due to the proliferation of the internet. Everything from infrustructure design and support to programmers to artists, sales, etc. None of these tens of millions of jobs even existed more than 25 years ago.
The numbers do not support this view.

The rate at which new jobs are being created is nowhere near enough to replace the jobs that are gone forever. Morever, it's completely unsustainable as the grand majority of the population cannot afford to get the education required for those new jobs.

You might be able to design a robot that could fold clothes and return them from dressing rooms at Target, but it will be more expensive and have a bigger environmental cost than just hiring a human to do it.
Those aren't the kinds of tasks that robots will be designed to replace.

The cost of raising a child through decades of education to perform surgery, for example, is immense. Not even just the cost of the education itself, but the cost of housing, feeding, and clothing the child, and the amount of manpower required to make sure that one child has a healthy childhood.

A robot doesn't need any of that. It just needs the right programming and the right parts, and maintenance costs are far, FAR lower than any human being. They don't need food, they don't need psychological care, they don't need sick days and vacation time, they just need electricity and regular maintenance and that's that.

The issue as of now, of course, is that the programming part is still in progress and it is still prohibitively expense to obtain such machines, but that will obviously change over time. And where we run into a lot of issues is that folks seem to be operating under the assumption that this is something that is decades away, but that is a foolhardy assumption to make. Technological progress is exponential, not linear, and we're already well on the way to reaching the steep part of the curve.

This future is inevitable. And we need to face it head-on if we want humanity to survive.
 

Foffy

Banned
It's based on extrapolating current trends.

And this article does fucking nothing to discount it. Especially when they open up by handwaving the issue by extrapolating past trends to future trends (as though that means anything when we're talking about going from manual labor automation to cognitive automation).

The problem isn't something you can just handwave away by pointing at the past and saying "look, they made it out fine!" This time things are different, and it'd be really great if we could just, maybe, come to terms with that fact and work towards pushing society in a direction where things won't be quite so dire when shit hits the fan.


The numbers do not support this view.

The rate at which new jobs are being created is nowhere near enough to replace the jobs that are gone forever. Morever, it's completely unsustainable as the grand majority of the population cannot afford to get the education required for those new jobs.


Those aren't the kinds of tasks that robots will be designed to replace.

The cost of raising a child through decades of education to perform surgery, for example, is immense. Not even just the cost of the education itself, but the cost of housing, feeding, and clothing the child, and the amount of manpower required to make sure that one child has a healthy childhood.

A robot doesn't need any of that. It just needs the right programming and the right parts, and maintenance costs are far, FAR lower than any human being. They don't need food, they don't need psychological care, they don't need sick days and vacation time, they just need electricity and regular maintenance and that's that.

The issue as of now, of course, is that the programming part is still in progress and it is still prohibitively expense to obtain such machines, but that will obviously change over time. And where we run into a lot of issues is that folks seem to be operating under the assumption that this is something that is decades away, but that is a foolhardy assumption to make. Technological progress is exponential, not linear, and we're already well on the way to reaching the steep part of the curve.

This future is inevitable. And we need to face it head-on if we want humanity to survive.

My partner in crime with this issue, this is on point. <3

For example, Washington just approved of driverless cars. Of course, the catch here is they don't have steering wheels. These are being normalized fast.

New York did a test with similar cars just today..
 
A facile article written by a luddite that doesn't merit serious discussion.

Productivity is gaining, wages are flat. The article is simply wrong.
Screen-Shot-2013-03-08-at-11.36.19-AM.png


Our underemployment rate is topping 20% depending on who you ask.
cox-under-1.png
2014-09-16-Underemployment20062013.jpg


And "I don't see any AI or self-driving cars taking our jobs right this very second, therefore it's a myth" is the dumbest argument I've ever heard.
 

Mr.Mike

Member

Are they really?

besttrousers said:
I’ll be concentrating on specific claims made in the video. Below, I have the full transcript of the video, automatically generated by the good folks at Youtube. I apologize for the grammatical and syntax errors in the transcript. Some things really take a human touch.

How long do you think it will take before machines do your job better than you do?

And right out of the gate the video is going on the road towards a pretty common error. Whenever we discuss the relationship between automatic and employment, it’s vital to recall the difference between absolute and comparative advantage.

Human brain are nothing special – there’s no reason to expect that, in the long run, machines will be unable to outperform us in any field of endeavor. But! Whether that happens or not is entirely irrelevant to whether humans still have jobs!

Even if machines have an absolute advantages in all fields, humans will have a comparative advantage in some fields. There will be tasks that computers are much much much better than us, and there will be tasks where computers are merely much much better than us. Humans will continue to do that latter task, so machines can do the former.

Automation used to mean big stupid machines doing repetitive work in factories. Today they can land aircraft, diagnose cancer and trade stocks.

In other words, small stupid machines doing repetitive work in the cloud.

We are entering a new age of automation unlike anything that's come before. According to a 2013 study almost half of all jobs in the US could potentially be automated in the next two decades.

But wait hasn't automation been around for decades? What's different this time?

Things used to be simple. Innovation made human work easier and productivity rose.


Productivity has been stagnant in recent years. But remember that we’re (still!) emerging from a severe recession. As people re-enter the labor market, the average productivity can decrease, as it was predominantly low productivity workers who exited during the recession.

In general, be careful about making strong claims about general economic tendencies within a business cycle. It’s usually best to look a bit broader, or to measure relevant statistics from peak to peak, or trough to trough. If you are measuring trough to peak (or, at least, trough to local maxima) you are going to be capturing cyclical trends that are likely to be reversed in the short term.

Which means that more staff or services could be produced per hour using the same amount of human workers. This eliminated many jobs it also created other jobs that were better which was important because the growing population needed work.

So in a nutshell innovation higher productivity fewer old jobs and many new and often better jobs overall this worked well for a majority of people and living standards improved. There's a clear progression in terms of what humans did for a living. For the longest time we worked in agriculture. With the Industrial Revolution, this shift into production jobs and as automation became more widespread, humans shifted into service jobs and then only a few moments ago in human history the Information Age happened. Suddenly, the rules were different. Our jobs are now being taken over by machines much faster than they were in the past.


I think this framing, which is pretty common, gives a warped mental model of why people have moved from sector to sector.

This is important, and not well covered in the FAQ, so let’s walk through it in detail.

There’s a sense you get out here that humans are constantly fleeing from sector to sector as the advancing robotic hordes take over jobs.

But…that’s a misrepresentation, and gets the emotional tenor of the history wrong. Here’s an alternative timeline.

  • Most people work in farming.
  • Eli Whitney invents the cotton gin, farming becomes much more productive.
  • People have enough to eat and go up Maslow’s ladder. Now, at the margin you want stuff. And fortunately, they have a bunch of new wealth with which to purchase it!
  • People are hired to start manufacturing jobs.
  • Henry Ford invents mass production and manufacturing becomes much more productive.
  • People have enough stuff, and now they want services. And fortunately, they have a bunch of new wealth with which to purchase it!
  • People are hired to provide services. They argue laws, diagnose cancer, and ring up people’s orders.

Jobs aren’t “taken over” by machines. Machines make people more productive, and richer than they were in the past. Because we are more productive and richer we ascend Maslow’s pyramid. It’s now worth paying people to do new stuff, that wasn’t worth paying for when you couldn’t eat.

As automation starts making the service industry more productive it is not the case that we are screwed and have no where to go. Either one of two things will happen.

  • We will have finally achieved satiation, and no longer need anything.
  • We will find new, wacky things for people to do.

Personally, I think the latter is more likely. Many people I know have jobs that would have seemed ridiculous a generation ago. I personally once got paid to make economics puns in Emily Dickinson poems a few years ago. I wouldn’t be particularly surprised if the next economy is…people making jokes. I’m not kidding. I don’t mean, like, stand up. I mean funny jokes on twitter, flashmob esque pranks, funny youtube videos.

Maybe I’m wrong (I probably am), but I don’t think it’s any more absurd that the manufacturing economy would have seemed in the 1400s, or the services economy in the 1800s.

That's worrying of course... but innovation will clearly save us, right? While new information age industries are booming, they are creating fewer and fewer new jobs. In 1979, General Motors employed more than 800,000 workers and made about 11 billion U.S. dollars. In 2012, Google made about 14 billion U.S. dollars while employing 58,000 people. you may not like this comparison, but Google is an example of what created new jobs in the past - Innovative new industries. Old innovative industries are running out of steam. Just look at cars - when they became a thing 100 years ago, they created huge industries. Cars transformed our way of life, our infrastructure, and our cities. Millions of people found jobs either directly or indirectly. Decades of investment kept this momentum going. Today, this process is largely complete. Innovation in the car industry does not create as many jobs as it used to. While electric cars are great and all, they won't create millions of new jobs.

But wait... what about the internet? Technologists argue that the Internet is an innovation on a power of the introduction of electricity if we go with this comparison we see how our modern innovation differs from the old one the internet created new industries but they're not creating enough jobs to keep up with population growth or to compensate for the industries the internet is killing.

At its peak in 2004 Blockbuster had 84,000 employees and made 6 billion US dollars in revenue in 2016 Netflix had 4,500 employees and made 9 billion dollars in revenue. take us for example with a full-time team of just 12 people courtesan 2 reaches millions of people. A TV station with the same amount of viewers needs way more employees.

Innovation in the information age doesn't equate to the creation of enough new jobs which would be bad enough on its own but now a new wave of automation and a new generation of machines is slowly taking over to understand this we need to understand ourselves.


This is taking a microphenomena about how firms respond to diffuse information, and mistaking it for a broad macrophenomena. The number of jobs “created” by Google or Apple or whatever isn’t the number of employees the firm has. Think about how many people work to create iPhone apps. Think about how many people work in Search Engine Optimization. Think about how many people work in Social Media. Uber’s the most obvious example – it has 12,000 direct employees and something like a million drivers working as independent contractors.

The macrophenomena is that the number of jobs has increased pretty steadily, outside of business cycle fluctuations.

First human progress is based on the division of labor as we advanced over thousands of years our jobs became more and more specialized while even our smartest machines are bad at doing complicated jobs they are extremely good at doing now redefined and predictable tasks this is what destroyed factory jobs but look at a complex job long and hard enough and you'll find that it's ready just many narrowly defined andpredictable tasks one after another machines are on the brink of becoming so good at breaking down complex jobs into many predictable ones but for a lot of people there will be no further room to specialize we on the verge of being out completed digital machines do this fly machine learning which enables them to acquire information and skills by analyzing data this makes them become better at something through the relationships they discover machines teach themselves we make this possible by giving a computer a lot of data about the thing we wanted to become better at so a machine all the things you bought online and it will slowly learn what to recommend to you so you buy more things

This automatic transcript is a bit of a mess, which allows my point to be made almost entirely by dramatic irony.

But lets be a bit more ambitious – the claim that machines are “on the brink of becoming so good at breaking down complex jobs into many predictable ones but for a lot of people there will be no further room to specialize” just isn’t true, for reasons Autor explains in Polyani’s Paradox:

// The Polyani's Paradox point isn't great, but I've left it in for completeness.

Given their ubiquity, it is tempting to infer that there is no task to which computers are not suited. But that leap of logic is unfounded. Human tasks that have proved most amenable to computerization are those that follow explicit, codifiable procedures—such as multiplication—where computers now vastly exceed human labor in speed, quality, accuracy and cost efficiency.3 Tasks that have proved most vexing to automate are those that demand flexibility, judgment and common sense—skills that we understand only tacitly—for example, developing a hypothesis or organizing a closet. In these tasks, computers are often less sophisticated than preschool-age children. The interplay between machine and human comparative advantage allows computers to substitute for workers in performing routine, codifiable tasks while amplifying the comparative advantage of workers in supplying problem-solving skills, adaptability and creativity. Understanding this interplay is central to interpreting and forecasting the changing structure of employment in the U.S. and other industrialized countries. This understanding is also is at the heart of the increasingly prominent debate about whether the rapid pace of automation threatens to render the demand for human labor obsolete over the next several decades.

While you can certainly imagine machines eventually learning how to do tasks that demand demand flexibility, judgment and common sense, we’re not there yet.

machine learning is now meeting more of its potential because in recent years humans have started to gather data about everything behavior weather patterns medical records communication systems travel data and of course data about what we do at work what we've created by accident is a huge library machines can use to learn how humans do things and learn to do them better these digital machines might be the biggest job killer of all they can be replicated instantly and for free when they improve you don't need to invest in big metal things you can just use the new code and they have the ability to get better fast how fast if your work involves complex work on a computer today you might be out of work even sooner than the people who still have jobs in factories

there are actual real-world examples of how this transition might be happening a San Francisco company offers a project management software for big corporations which is supposed to eliminate middle management positions when it's hired for a new project the software first decides which jobs can be automated and precisely where it needs actual professional humans it then helps assemble a team of freelancers over the Internet the software then distributes tasks to the humans and controls the quality of the work tracking individual performance until the project is complete ok this doesn't sound too bad while this machine is killing one job it creates jobs for freelancers right well as the freelancers complete their tasks learning algorithms track them and gather data about their work and which tasks it consists of so what's actually happening is that the freelancers are teaching a machine how to replace them on average this software reduces costs by about 50% in the first year and by another 25% in the second year


This company sounds pretty interesting. But I’d like to know…who they are. I’m willing to bet most project management jobs aren’t on the verge of automation, and this software only works in fairly narrow domains. Going to leave this piece to you /u/say_wot_again!

this is only one example of many there are machines and programs getting as good or better than humans in all kinds of fields from pharmacists to analysts journalists to radiologists cashiers bank tellers or the unskilled worker flipping

all of these jobs won't disappear overnight but fewer and fewer humans will be doing we'll discuss a few cases in a follow-up video but while jobs disappearing it's bad it's only half of the story it's not enough to substitute old jobs with new ones we need to be generating new jobs constantly because the world population is growing in the past we have solved this through innovation but since 1973 the generation of new jobs in the US has begun to shrink and the first decade of the 21st century was the first one where the total amount of jobs in the u.s. did not grow for the first time in a country that needs to create up to 150,000 new jobs per month just to keep up with population growth this is bad news


Picking 2000-2010 is cheating, and that should be pretty obvious to everyone. There was a financial crisis in early 2009. Total number of jobs in the US is at an all time high and we’re not seeing any substantial divergence from historical trends (once we account for demographic shifts).

this is also starting to affect standards of living in the past it was seen as obvious that with rising productivity more and better jobs would be created but the numbers tell a different story in 1998 US workers worked a total of 194 billion hours over the course of the next 15 years their output increased by 42 percent but in 2013 the amount of hours worked by US workers was still 194 billion hours what this means is that despite productivity growing drastically thousands of new businesses opening up and the u.s. population growing by over 40 million there was no growth at all when the number of hours worked in 15 years

The source for this claim appears to be this BLS blogpost: https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume...tivity-tell-us-about-the-us-economy.htm#_edn1

Again, the business cycle is obscuring things here. While it’s not quite as obvious as moving from 2000 to 2010, 1998 to 2013 is still going to give you a false impression. 1998 was the height of the dotcom boom, with an unemployment rate at 4.5%, while the economy was still recovering in 2013.

Note that the BLS post is mostly trying to explain how increased capital makes us more productive. What’s interesting is that, even though labor hours are constant, output has dramatically increased over the same time period. It's not a puzzle or something. If cyclical unemployment rises as much as population increases, you expect total hours to be the same.

at the same time wages for new university graduates in the US have been declining for the past decade

Nope. See Figure 6 specifically.

while up to 40 percent of new graduates are forced to take on jobs that don't require a degree

I’d like to see some longitudinal data – what has the number been historically? Many jobs don’t require a degree, which doesn’t indicate that a degree is not useful.

productivity is separating from human labour the nature of innovation and the information age is different from everything we encountered before this process started years ago and is already well underway even without new disruptions like self-driving cars or robot accountants it looks like automation is different this time this time the machines might really take our jobs

This is just an assertion, and not one that has been justified by the previous arguments. The video has not actually made the case that things are different, merely claimed it.

our economies are based on the premise that people consume but if fewer and fewer people have decent work who will be doing all the consuming are we producing ever more cheaply only to arrive at a point where too few people can actually buy all our stuff and services or will the future see a tiny minority of the super rich who own the machines dominating the rest of us and does our future really have to be that grim

This is what Krugman called Vulgar Keynesian Economics. It’s a misconception of macroeconomics, based on the incorrect belief that the Keynesian Cross is a model appropriate for thinking about long term growth, and not simply a toy model that only works at the zero bound.

/u/wumbotarian has a good RI. Also see Krugman here:

So am I saying that you can have full employment based on purchases of yachts, luxury cars, and the services of personal trainers and celebrity chefs? Well, yes. You don’t have to like it, but economics is not a morality play, and I’ve yet to see a macroeconomic argument about why it isn’t possible.

(Confidential to /u/Integralds – you must have a canon Keynesian Cross explainer – right? I didn’t find it readily)

while we were fairly dark in this video it's far from certain that things will turn out negatively the Information Age and modern automation could be a huge opportunity to change human society and reduce poverty and inequality drastically it could be a seminal moment in human history we'll talk about this potential and possible solutions like a universal basic income in part two of this video series we need to think big and fast because one thing's for sure the machines are not coming they are already here

The UBI as the cure to automatic still makes little sense, as I’ve outlined here

this video took us about 900 hours to make andwe've been working on it for over nine months projects like this one would not be possible without your support on patreon.com if you want to help us out and get a personal Kurzgesagt bird in return that would be really huseful we based much of this video on two very good books the rise of the robots and the second Machine Age you can find links to both of them in the video description highly recommended also we make a little robot poster you can buy it and a lot of other stuff in our DFTBA (Don't Forget To Be Awesome) shop. This video is part of a larger series about how technology is already changing and will change human

It’s really awesome that they do cool videos like this, and I’m sure that the others they have made aren’t as full of errors. Automation has made food and stuff and even services cheap. That means that people will happily give money away on Patreon to creators, and that creators can live off of those proceeds! When you watch a cool video like this, or numberphile or CGP Grey, remember that it’s automation that made our society rich enough that people can do cool stuff like this! (For that matter, automation means that I have enough of my needs fulfilled that I will spent a bunch of time writing RIs.)

The point is that we should be careful about demanding reforms based on some combination of our priors and a shaky premise that cognitive labour being automated is materially different from physical labour being automated.
 

Laiza

Member
Are they really?

The point is that we should be careful about demanding reforms based on some combination of our priors and a shaky premise that cognitive labour being automated is materially different from physical labour being automated.
Jobs aren't ”taken over" by machines. Machines make people more productive, and richer than they were in the past. Because we are more productive and richer we ascend Maslow's pyramid. It's now worth paying people to do new stuff, that wasn't worth paying for when you couldn't eat.

As automation starts making the service industry more productive it is not the case that we are screwed and have no where to go. Either one of two things will happen.
We will have finally achieved satiation, and no longer need anything.
We will find new, wacky things for people to do.

Personally, I think the latter is more likely. Many people I know have jobs that would have seemed ridiculous a generation ago. I personally once got paid to make economics puns in Emily Dickinson poems a few years ago. I wouldn't be particularly surprised if the next economy is...people making jokes. I'm not kidding. I don't mean, like, stand up. I mean funny jokes on twitter, flashmob esque pranks, funny youtube videos.

Maybe I'm wrong (I probably am), but I don't think it's any more absurd that the manufacturing economy would have seemed in the 1400s, or the services economy in the 1800s.
Right off the bat your quoted poster is starting from an incredibly shaky premise.

Once again, I am NOT of the mind that you can extrapolate what happened in the past as what will happen in the future, and repeating yourself over and over again will not change my mind on the matter.

The worst part is how flippant this response is. Like, it never once occurred to you that the new ways of making money are limited to such a small number of people that the rest of humanity is basically entirely fucked? Does it really not matter at all that inequality is rising at an unprecedented pace, exceeding all previous known levels of inequality in all of human history? Does it not matter that there are still a huge number of people in civilized countries (mostly the USA) who can't afford rent, suffer from food insecurity, and can't afford anything in the realm of healthcare?

Twiddling our thumbs and saying "things will turn out fine!" is not a solution to people suffering today. I refuse to accept it. I'd much rather talk about the things we can do to make things better for everyone, not just the relatively small handful of lucky people who happen to land in a solid niche while the rest of humanity suffers.
 
People getting smarter is a trend where you will eventually inevitably brush up against the limits of human intellectual capacity.

And even though not all jobs will require an inherently technical skill set, on average the number that will will continue to trend upwards. Even soft skill jobs in business will require more credentialization just to have a shot at even being considered for the job, which is what we already are seeing in today's world. In this new employer centric labor market, workers will perpetually be at the whim of highly risk averse employers who don't want to dedicate dollars to training potential green employees. They will only consider employees they know can perform the task day one or with minimal training.

Think about america under any president for a period of time longer than 5 seconds.

We're very far from brushing the limits of human intellectual ability.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Right off the bat your quoted poster is starting from an incredibly shaky premise.

Once again, I am NOT of the mind that you can extrapolate what happened in the past as what will happen in the future, and repeating yourself over and over again will not change my mind on the matter.

The worst part is how flippant this response is. Like, it never once occurred to you that the new ways of making money are limited to such a small number of people that the rest of humanity is basically entirely fucked? Does it really not matter at all that inequality is rising at an unprecedented pace, exceeding all previous known levels of inequality in all of human history? Does it not matter that there are still a huge number of people in civilized countries (mostly the USA) who can't afford rent, suffer from food insecurity, and can't afford anything in the realm of healthcare?

Twiddling our thumbs and saying "things will turn out fine!" is not a solution to people suffering today. I refuse to accept it. I'd much rather talk about the things we can do to make things better for everyone, not just the relatively small handful of lucky people who happen to land in a solid niche while the rest of humanity suffers.

There's a deep irony between the rejection of extrapolation and the fear of machine learning. Compounded by a lot of extrapolation of my political beliefs from a positive claim that automation might not work out the way some people think it will.
 

legend166

Member
Fuel and Maintenance can be automated.

Do you think companies will transport millions of dollars of product with no human on board to make sure it doesn't get robbed? Or are we thinking of songstress security as well? When's the first robot that will get tried for murder?
 
Do you think companies will transport millions of dollars of product with no human on board to make sure it doesn't get robbed? Or are we thinking of songstress security as well? When's the first robot that will get tried for murder?

Those transports will have tons of telemetry including live video, many of the products they will be moving will have RFID/Zigbee/ect making them trackable, and there will be a centralize hub monitoring the transports which can dispatch authorities when necessary. I would say that automated transport will be more secure due to the ability to have 24h monitoring, constant movement while loaded with product (outside of fueling, which could be limited to secure locations), and no humans to take hostage.
 

Makai

Member
There's a deep irony between the rejection of extrapolation and the fear of machine learning. Compounded by a lot of extrapolation of my political beliefs from a positive claim that automation might not work out the way some people think it will.
haha. also a very inaccurate view of both the present day and the past. Definitely not the most inequal time history - Caesar was a trillionaire because he owned Egypt. http://time.com/money/3977798/the-10-richest-people-of-all-time/
 
My experience with AI is mostly people throwing random linear algebra they barely understand at problem domains they barely understand and seeing what sticks.

Maybe they're a bit more competent at more elite schools, but I feel like a lot of people are really overestimating AI.
Counterpoint: Bill Gates and Elon Musk are extremely worried about AI. They probably understand the nuances of the current state of the art.
 
No idea how your measure of productivity was calculated because the common definition shows productivity is doing absolutely horribly.

MmpKEDS.png

That is a chart of the growth rate of productivity, not a chart of cumulative productivity, so that explains why it looks different than mine. BTW, typically productivity is simply GDP divided by "productive hours." The fact that it's climbing and climbing and wages are not is my concern.

Screen-Shot-2013-03-08-at-11.36.19-AM.png
 

DavidDesu

Member
I think most articles that raise the alarm of rising AI make the point that its only just beginning. Looking at current job trends and saying everything's fine when the big break through might be just 5 years down the road is extremely short sided IMO.

Came to say this. Wasn't there some insurance firm, or maybe some kind of stockbrokers, that just sacked a floor full of employees and replaced them with some software, keeping only a skeleton crew to ratify the software's work?

Automation and AI is still in its infancy but like many other recent technologies does feel on the cusp of exploding very soon. Once it does I cannot fathom how it won't have a huge effect in nearly every sector.

Haven't read the full OP or indeed the article, but it feels very premature and naive to think things won't be massively effected.
 

Makai

Member
That is a chart of the growth rate of productivity, not a chart of cumulative productivity, so that explains why it looks different than mine. BTW, typically productivity is simply GDP divided by "productive hours." The fact that it's climbing and climbing and wages are not is my concern.

Screen-Shot-2013-03-08-at-11.36.19-AM.png
I was looking at the red line by mistake. Slope looked way too steep.
 

Dyle

Member
The article in the OP makes a good point, low skill jobs are going away and are being replaced by increasingly technical and managerial positions. That is a big problem, as others have mentioned in this thread, because not everyone can be trained for those jobs. Already many industries are struggling to find the amount of qualified talent they need, see the never-ending shortages in America of doctors and skilled programmers. This will only get worse as high-skill jobs become more valuable and more desired, particularly because the institutions needed to create good workers who can do those jobs are raising their prices and losing stable government funding. Particularly in America we do not have the funding necessary to adequately educate enough high-skill workers now, and as those types of positions become a larger portion of the job market and average American income stays stable, this will lead to far greater job shortages and mismatches between what employers are asking for and what the labor market can provide.

This article seems to completely miss the point of what it's saying, if jobs are going to indeed shift from low skill to high skill positions, then the labor market will need to level up and gain more skill than the market as a whole has today, but by most indications that is unlikely to happen. Colleges on the whole are struggling to be affordable and technical colleges and apprenticeship programs are being starved of the funding, both from the govt, corporations, and struggling unions they need to improve workers. Just look at how Trump and Scott Walker went out today and celebrated technical colleges while they propose cutting much needed funds from them and other worker education programs.
 
Just from reading the highlight, they seem so dismissive of the automative revolution. It's not so much that we're seeing it yet, but more that it's an inevitable end state. Almost all technology created is an effort to reduce work, and we'll eventually hit a point where technology does 99.9% of the work itself. In this scenario, if you adapt the system to socialist/communist, everyone benefits. If you don't, due to NIMBYism and general "out of sight, out of mind" mentalities, a new sub-economy will form in the slums poor people are pushed into.
 

Laiza

Member
There's a deep irony between the rejection of extrapolation and the fear of machine learning. Compounded by a lot of extrapolation of my political beliefs from a positive claim that automation might not work out the way some people think it will.
The whole problem I have with this mindset is that things already aren't working out for a significant portion of the population. Any "solution" that entails do nothing and wait is inherently useless in light of this.

The status quo works out great for those who are already on top in the current paradigm, but that status quo is not going to maintain itself for very much longer. Even the owners of all that capital will have issues if no one is buying their goods (i.e. demand is there but the money just isn't moving in large enough quantities for people to actually buy those goods because they don't have jobs). Every single counterpoint is operating under the assumption that full automation is either

A. full decades away, or
B. won't matter because people will magically, mysteriously come up with new ways to create new jobs despite that

The former is based on an assumption of linear technological progress which is entirely bunk, and the latter is based on idiotic magical thinking that's equivalent to "the Invisible Hand of the Free Market". It's tripe that barely even warrants a response right on the face of it.

Remember, we're at the foot of the curve:
graph-300x262.jpg


It's incredibly easy to be dismissive about all of this when you're operating under those faulty assumptions. But those assumptions are wrong. That's your linear intuition (something that's served us well for millions of years) misleading you into false complacency.

And I'm not saying this because I fear technology. I love technology. I think it can bring us into an era of untold abundance, peace, and prosperity. The problem is that it can also lead us to utter ruination, and I want us to do everything we possibly can to help push the needle in the direction of prosperity and not endless suffering.

I STRONGLY recommend reading the Wait But Why article on this subject. There's not going to be much of a discussion to be had if we're operating on completely different playing fields. Remember, this is something we're looking at happening within the next decade AT THE LATEST, and just because you can't see it now doesn't mean we shouldn't be taking steps towards alleviating the pain while we still can. It's the same deal with climate change - just because it's slow to act doesn't mean you can afford to just plug your ears and pretend everything is hunky-dory.

It's hard to see it coming, but it IS something we need to see coming and hopefully address before shit starts really stinking up the place.
 

KingV

Member
It's based on extrapolating current trends.

And this article does fucking nothing to discount it. Especially when they open up by handwaving the issue by extrapolating past trends to future trends (as though that means anything when we're talking about going from manual labor automation to cognitive automation).

The problem isn't something you can just handwave away by pointing at the past and saying "look, they made it out fine!" This time things are different, and it'd be really great if we could just, maybe, come to terms with that fact and work towards pushing society in a direction where things won't be quite so dire when shit hits the fan.


The numbers do not support this view.

The rate at which new jobs are being created is nowhere near enough to replace the jobs that are gone forever. Morever, it's completely unsustainable as the grand majority of the population cannot afford to get the education required for those new jobs.


Those aren't the kinds of tasks that robots will be designed to replace.

The cost of raising a child through decades of education to perform surgery, for example, is immense. Not even just the cost of the education itself, but the cost of housing, feeding, and clothing the child, and the amount of manpower required to make sure that one child has a healthy childhood.

A robot doesn't need any of that. It just needs the right programming and the right parts, and maintenance costs are far, FAR lower than any human being. They don't need food, they don't need psychological care, they don't need sick days and vacation time, they just need electricity and regular maintenance and that's that.

The issue as of now, of course, is that the programming part is still in progress and it is still prohibitively expense to obtain such machines, but that will obviously change over time. And where we run into a lot of issues is that folks seem to be operating under the assumption that this is something that is decades away, but that is a foolhardy assumption to make. Technological progress is exponential, not linear, and we're already well on the way to reaching the steep part of the curve.

This future is inevitable. And we need to face it head-on if we want humanity to survive.

The numbers Do support this view. The productivity numbers alone basically expose this "loss of all jobs to automation" as a fantasy. GDP is going up at basically the exact same rate as number of hours worked. If this trend were real that would not be the case. Until that changes it's just a complete hypothetical.
 
Anyone who has ever actually done machine learning recently knows that AI really is just around the corner. But they also know that AI is just really good statistics - not real cognition. In the near future, AI will probably be a tool that professionals use, just like computers and pencils and vehicles.

IN 1997, WATSON’S precursor, IBM’s Deep Blue, beat the reigning chess grand master Garry Kasparov in a famous man-versus-machine match. After machines repeated their victories in a few more matches, humans largely lost interest in such contests. You might think that was the end of the story (if not the end of human history), but Kasparov realized that he could have performed better against Deep Blue if he’d had the same instant access to a massive database of all previous chess moves that Deep Blue had. If this database tool was fair for an AI, why not for a human? To pursue this idea, Kasparov pioneered the concept of man-plus-machine matches, in which AI augments human chess players rather than competes against them.

Now called freestyle chess matches, these are like mixed martial arts fights, where players use whatever combat techniques they want. You can play as your unassisted human self, or you can act as the hand for your supersmart chess computer, merely moving its board pieces, or you can play as a “centaur,” which is the human/AI cyborg that Kasparov advocated. A centaur player will listen to the moves whispered by the AI but will occasionally override them—much the way we use GPS navigation in our cars. In the championship Freestyle Battle in 2014, open to all modes of players, pure chess AI engines won 42 games, but centaurs won 53 games. Today the best chess player alive is a centaur: Intagrand, a team of humans and several different chess programs.

But here’s the even more surprising part: The advent of AI didn’t diminish the performance of purely human chess players. Quite the opposite. Cheap, supersmart chess programs inspired more people than ever to play chess, at more tournaments than ever, and the players got better than ever. There are more than twice as many grand masters now as there were when Deep Blue first beat Kasparov. The top-ranked human chess player today, Magnus Carlsen, trained with AIs and has been deemed the most computer-like of all human chess players. He also has the highest human grand master rating of all time.

If AI can help humans become better chess players, it stands to reason that it can help us become better pilots, better doctors, better judges, better teachers. Most of the commercial work completed by AI will be done by special-purpose, narrowly focused software brains that can, for example, translate any language into any other language, but do little else. Drive a car, but not converse. Or recall every pixel of every video on YouTube but not anticipate your work routines. In the next 10 years, 99 percent of the artificial intelligence that you will interact with, directly or indirectly, will be nerdily autistic, supersmart specialists.

In fact, this won’t really be intelligence, at least not as we’ve come to think of it. Indeed, intelligence may be a liability—especially if by “intelligence” we mean our peculiar self-awareness, all our frantic loops of introspection and messy currents of self-consciousness. We want our self-driving car to be inhumanly focused on the road, not obsessing over an argument it had with the garage. The synthetic Dr. Watson at our hospital should be maniacal in its work, never wondering whether it should have majored in English instead. As AIs develop, we might have to engineer ways to prevent consciousness in them—and our most premium AI services will likely be advertised as consciousness-free.

(src)
 

Laiza

Member
Given current trends in computing it's more like this
You are assuming that IPC and frequency are constraints in this domain.

top500-nov-2016-performance-over-time.jpg
Not to mention that that is an assumption based entirely on the performance of silicon. We are still pursuing alternative materials and even an alternative computing paradigm in the forms of graphene, carbon nanotubes, and quantum computing. Any one of these can change the numbers dramatically - especially quantum computing, which every major tech giant is doggedly pursuing with huge amounts of R&D being poured into it every year.

The numbers Do support this view. The productivity numbers alone basically expose this "loss of all jobs to automation" as a fantasy. GDP is going up at basically the exact same rate as number of hours worked. If this trend were real that would not be the case. Until that changes it's just a complete hypothetical.
This is so ignorant it is actually physically painful.

Fine. We'll wait until self-driving trucks arrive and put an entire industry out of business. Then I get to say "I told you so", except I won't be happy about it because literally everything will be impacted by the sudden wave of lost jobs and lost livelihoods.

I swear, every bloody thread about this on GAF is utterly infuriating. So much complacency. And just like Trump, by the time the change arrives, it'll be too bloody late to stem the tide. Wonderful forward thinking right there.
 

tokkun

Member
You are assuming that IPC and frequency are constraints in this domain.

top500-nov-2016-performance-over-time.jpg

Those metrics are not all that useful because you are not going to replace an individual worker with a 10,000-node supercomputer. What you are seeing in those graphs is that horizontal scaling still works. Energy per op is probably a more useful metric for the topic of this thread.
 

KingV

Member
Not to mention that that is an assumption based entirely on the performance of silicon. We are still pursuing alternative materials and even an alternative computing paradigm in the forms of graphene, carbon nanotubes, and quantum computing. Any one of these can change the numbers dramatically - especially quantum computing, which every major tech giant is doggedly pursuing with huge amounts of R&D being poured into it every year.


This is so ignorant it is actually physically painful.

Fine. We'll wait until self-driving trucks arrive and put an entire industry out of business. Then I get to say "I told you so", except I won't be happy about it because literally everything will be impacted by the sudden wave of lost jobs and lost livelihoods.

I swear, every bloody thread about this on GAF is utterly infuriating. So much complacency. And just like Trump, by the time the change arrives, it'll be too bloody late to stem the tide. Wonderful forward thinking right there.


Good we agree. When you can point to the evidence that this is actually occurring, and accelerating, and having an effect on the workforce, then it will be time to do something.

Until then it is a hypothetical dystopian fantasy that may or may not occur in the next 10-50 years.
 
Those metrics are not all that useful because you are not going to replace an individual worker with a 10,000-node supercomputer. What you are seeing in those graphs is that horizontal scaling still works. Energy per op is probably a more useful metric for the topic of this thread.

I was trying to imply that as long as the problem is parallelizable then scaling applies today, the gains in that graph are products of improved transistor density and efficiency.
 
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