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[jigglet]

If you look at passive media (movies, sitcoms, TV etc), the level of freedom they had back in the early 2000's, 90's and earlier was amazing. The sharp satire of The Simpsons, for example. I've watched so many movies from that era and thought - holy crap, they simply couldn't do that now. The far left hadn't taken hold yet, and America hadn't passively but lovingly embraced Chinese censorship yet.

Now, we've reached a point where the level of video game tech is really compelling, there you can have games that come close to rivalling movies from a cinematic and story telling perspective. But it feels like it's just too late. Wouldn't it have been awesome to have this level of technical capability 20-30 years ago? As the title says, it feels like video game tech is maturing at a bad time.

 

[kiphalfton]

Yeah, but we're at where we're at because a good foundation was laid. Better than there being a crap foundation, since it's easier to go back to that than move towards that goodness.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

Yeah, but we're at where we're at because a good foundation was laid. Better than there being a crap foundation, since it's easier to go back to that than move towards that goodness.

The 80's and 90's are over and never coming back. It's dead Jim.

 

[remember_spinal]

No, there is actually a thriving indie scene now with a ton of variety, something that couldn’t exist 20 years ago

 

[jigglet]

The 80's and 90's are over and never coming back. It's dead Jim.

The only way we're coming back is an event that makes everyone realise just how central freedom of speech is to a functioning democracy. And unfortunately that event is something no one wants to even contemplate.

 

[ReBurn]

America hadn't passively but lovingly embraced Chinese censorship yet.

America has censored media for as long as we've had media. This past with creativity free from censorship never really existed. The ESRB has been a thing since 1994 and have had tremendous influence on the content of video games for nearly 30 years.

 

[jigglet]

No, there is actually a thriving indie scene now with a ton of variety, something that couldn’t exist 20 years ago

Ah, very good point yes. I guess I was talking more in context of big budget movie-like productions, but yes you're right quality games are still being produced just in different formats.

 

[jigglet]

America has censored media for as long as we've had media. This past with creativity free from censorship never really existed. The ESRB has been a thing since 1994 and have had tremendous influence on the content of video games for nearly 30 years.

It was a censorship of your own choosing, though, based on your morals, your ethics, your people - not someone else's government. The narrative that it's all the same is what I referred to by "lovingly embraced". It's not a problem because it's been reshaped not to be a problem.

 

[It's all in the wrist]

People that claim there isn't enough creativity in gaming aren't looking hard enough.

Furthermore, the tools for creation and delivery methods for getting games to people have never been better.

 

[jigglet]

People that claim there isn't enough variety aren't looking hard enough.

The guy above rightly pointed out indie games are still very creatively free. I'm referring to hollywood-levels of production values, so a different type of game. But you're right creativity isn't dead, but not really what I'm talking about.

 

[Kacho]

There was more creative freedom 20 years ago because budgets weren’t astronomical. Dev cycles were also much shorter. Back then developers were experimenting on modest budgets to see what works.

 

[jigglet]

There was more creative freedom 20 years ago because budgets weren’t astronomical. Dev cycles were also much shorter. Back then developers were experimenting on modest budgets to see what works.

Yes very fair point. You're not making the equivalent of an indie movie that has God of War level graphics and production values are you. Maybe another 20 years before we can get to that level of ease / cost of development. Need dev tools to take it to another level of accessibility first.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

Because game prices at the highest have gotten to the point where risk adversion is the best investment. Like many mediums once it becomes profitable enough the suits will drain all creativity to chase trends. The indie space, due to the lower barrier of entry is in a great place but I don’t think creativity should only be relegated to indies. I’d love to see aaatry more unique elements. The last was death stranding. Elden ring to some extent. Usually they are as risk adverse as they can be. Same gameplay philosophy but different cutscenes.

 

[ReBurn]

It was a censorship of your own choosing, though, based on your morals, your ethics, your people - not someone else's government. The narrative that it's all the same is what I referred to by "lovingly embraced". It's not a problem because it's been reshaped not to be a problem.

Actually, no. Cinema owners and operators could be fined and threatened with jail for letting teens into R-rated movies. Broadcasters were fined and threatened with arrest by the US Federal government for inappropriate language in TV and radio broadcasts. God forbid someone see a female nipple.

In most regards American society is less censorious today than it was 20 years ago. But it is more sensitive to some themes. Most of the censorship in video games in the US today is bouncy underclothed and overendowed teenaged characters in anime games that give the impression of exploitation of underage girls. Whether they do or not is a whole other discussion, but half naked kids is something that's generally not tolerated and not worth the controversy to a video game publisher.

 

[It's all in the wrist]

The guy above rightly pointed out indie games are still very creatively free. I'm referring to hollywood-levels of production values, so a different type of game. But you're right creativity isn't dead, but not really what I'm talking about.

Isn't that a different kind of game, though? Call it AAAA.

If we're going to separate indies into their own category, we can lump Sony's first party games in a different category (for example).

I hate to categorize games like that, in any case. I jumped from God of War to Tetris Effect to Kirby to Guardians of the Galaxy. I still have Pentiment and Dead Space on deck. They're all great games.

 

[jigglet]

Actually, no. Cinema owners and operators could be fined and threatened with jail for letting teens into R-rated movies. Broadcasters were fined and threatened with arrest by the US Federal government for inappropriate language in TV and radio broadcasts. God forbid someone see a female nipple.

In most regards American society is less censorious today than it was 20 years ago. But it is more sensitive to some themes. Most of the censorship in video games in the US today is bouncy underclothed and overendowed teenaged characters in anime games that give the impression of exploitation of underage girls. Whether they do or not is a whole other discussion, but half naked kids is something that's generally not tolerated and not worth the controversy to a video game publisher.

I'm open to looking at this differently, but you're saying that if you put aside far left and Chinese influences, this is where we would have naturally ended up anyway? I don't think I agree but I'm happy to hear different opinions on this.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

No, there is actually a thriving indie scene now with a ton of variety, something that couldn’t exist 20 years ago

Completely agree with you. High on Life just dropped hard for example.

 

[remember_spinal]

Completely agree with you. High on Life just dropped hard for example.

Hmm ok

 

[The_Mike]

Now, we've reached a point where the level of video game tech is really compelling, there you can have games that come close to rivalling movies from a cinematic and story telling perspective.

I think its more of a "what people want", rather than what we can get.

Offensive humor is long gone from another age, which applies to any type of media.

The big companies will always cater to pop culture, and pop culture is about crippling everything that could be considered fun.

The only hope is indies. You won't get a triple a game or movie today who hasn't been grinded into the "is it sociable acceptable" wheel.

But I also think the industry cripples itself. We've went from studios of 10 or 20 men who could output a good game, to studios with 100 or 200 men where the majority are graphic designers because the majority of gamers would rather have a graphical slideshow of a cinematic masterpiece instead of focusing on God damn gameplay.

 

[Rudius]

I dream of what VR games could have been with today's technology and past human quality...

 

[daveonezero]

The democratization of tools and technology is always a counter to big cultural moves though.

 

[.Pennywise]

Political thread smh

 

[jigglet]

Political thread smh

Yeah good point, didn't even enter my mind. I was thinking more about 90's movies when I wrote this thread. I've been on an 80's and 90's movie binge recently.

Mods feel free to delete if it violates any rules.

 

[mortal]

The funny thing about creative freedom and the "you couldn't do that now" mentality is that you have to trick yourself and others into believing it. It's like rationalising demoralizaition.

It's one thing if you're primarily concerned about making a profit and marketing to the widest audience possible, but if you value your creative freedom then do what you want.
Imagine if good comedians thoughts this way, comedy would be fucking dead.

Freedom isn't given to you, if you want it then you take it with all the benefit and risk that comes with it.

 

[poppabk]

I dream of what VR games could have been with today's technology and past human quality...

You may want to install steam.

 

[Dream-Knife]

People want better graphics -> games becomes more expensive -> corporations have to play it safe.

Maybe there will be a AAA crash. If not, enjoy your mediocrity.

 

[A Most Virtuous Cat]

If you look at passive media (movies, sitcoms, TV etc), the level of freedom they had back in the early 2000's, 90's and earlier was amazing. The sharp satire of The Simpsons, for example. I've watched so many movies from that era and thought - holy crap, they simply couldn't do that now. The far left hadn't taken hold yet, and America hadn't passively but lovingly embraced Chinese censorship yet.

Now, we've reached a point where the level of video game tech is really compelling, there you can have games that come close to rivalling movies from a cinematic and story telling perspective. But it feels like it's just too late. Wouldn't it have been awesome to have this level of technical capability 20-30 years ago? As the title says, it feels like video game tech is maturing at a bad time.

thats a very wise observation, honestly.

 

[Raonak]

That's nonsense. There's so much more you can do now than ever. Not having to rely on publishers allows anyone to do anything.

Before you couldn't do anything that was remotely sexual or violent. (Hot coffee is so tame compared to what you can get now). As is the level of violence. Manhunt would just be any normal game these days.

Its true that there's being a change to move away from traditional christian values as nontheism rises and the connectiveness of the internet for an inlcude everyone mindset.

Like always certain views are controversial, but that's always been the case. Its just now there's different things that are controversial. But these days that doesn't stop you from actually making the product. Even though you'll lose out on advertising. But it's way easier than ever to find an audience and a niche.

 

[A Most Virtuous Cat]

Political thread smh

Hell nah, very relevant to the gaming industry. Get your NPC behaviour somewhere else, buddy.

 

[ACESHIGH]

Mediums rise, peak, plateau and die. Rock music peaked in 1973 for example ( DSOTM, Selling England by the Pound, Tales from Topographic Oceans, Brain Salad Surgery, Larks Tongues in Aspic, Sabbath Blooddy Sabath, Houses of the Holy and many many more)

Videogames were always very tied to technology. 1998 might be the greatest year ever, but games didn't peak on that year because tech still had a long way to go. 2004 another great year and so on and so forth. I think since the 7th gen the medium is on the mature phase. The market is larger than ever, but there are not many groundbreaking games. Modern tech lets devs do anything they want, as long as they scale and manage scopes appropriately. The issue here is that the customer was always used to gigantic leaps in tech. Nowadays changes are minimal, even irrelevant regarding how tech impacts gameplay possibilities.

Its up to the customer to accept that we don't need the shiniest graphics anymore. Send that message to studios, and they will be back with more risk averse offerings, with the good ol AA games making a comeback.

 

[nial]

If you look at passive media (movies, sitcoms, TV etc), the level of freedom they had back in the early 2000's, 90's and earlier was amazing. The sharp satire of The Simpsons, for example.

I stopped reading there.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

People that claim there isn't enough creativity in gaming aren't looking hard enough.

I think that depends on what type of games you are into. Japan and indie games generally still bring creativity and even some innovation to the industry, but most AAA games are creatively bankrupt, homogenized and safe.

 

[Ozzie666]

Whilst not video games, South Park, Family Guy and always sunny in Philly continue to get made and are aren't afraid to push the limits. Japan and other countries have different culture and sensibilities. They seem to continue to push the limits. Truth is, everyone complains and plays the victim now. I do wonder how GTA will be impacted, the final bastion of acceptable satire? That's the point though, people don't accept satire anymore and have to take offense to everything. It seems like this is a North American thing more than any section of the world though. Less acceptance or more people willing to complain.

I think the original Tomb Raider in 1996 compared to current trends is pretty telling. No place in video games for politics. Publishers are scared to upset anyone, no matter how large the group. It's not about the lack of creativity, it's about the blow back from internet net warriors and 'journalists'

 

[yurinka]

I think that the almost mandated self censorship to avoid controversies and to get certain government of age rating sucks, but there's still room to do great stuff within the limited window available.

That said, I'd like to see devs fully free to do whatever they want with nobody telling them to avoid certain stuff to be allowed to publish on certain store, platform or country like USA, Germany or China and to don't cause riots in social media and in reviews.

 

[Gamerfan81]

Since we can't really talk politics here. All I have to say is just watch Yuri Bezmenov's (former KGB agent) interview on youtube. That is all.

 

[mxbison]

Far left is also responsible for f2p and gaas.

Damn communists!

 

[Knightime_X]

Wrong.
We totally can.
There is nothing that says we MUST listen to woke folk and obey their stupid bullshit.
Just drop a pair and do it anyways. Ignore their twitter crying and REEEEEEEEEEEactions.

 

[phil_t98]

I'm open to looking at this differently, but you're saying that if you put aside far left and Chinese influences, this is where we would have naturally ended up anyway? I don't think I agree but I'm happy to hear different opinions on this.

so you want far right games that offend people?

 

[T4keD0wN]

If you look at passive media (movies, sitcoms, TV etc), the level of freedom they had back in the early 2000's, 90's and earlier was amazing. The sharp satire of The Simpsons, for example. I've watched so many movies from that era and thought - holy crap, they simply couldn't do that now. The far left hadn't taken hold yet, and America hadn't passively but lovingly embraced Chinese censorship yet.

LOL, can you please explain how any of this is caused by far left?
This is purely a capitalism problem of focusing on maximizing profit while minimizing risk, nothing more.
There is more choice than ever. Nobody is preventing you from playing your beloved games like SEX with HITLER 2.
Games like these arent on the front page because they are low quality. Just browse steam store a little bit more instead of browsing ubisoft store and you will find what you boomers are so into.

 

[UnNamed]

Wage rises, but games cost the same as 30 years ago.

For example, in 1990 AA studios needed 20 people for a AA game, 1000$ per employee (numbers are just indicative)

20x1000x12months=240k/40$=6k copies.

Now it's like 3000k per employee, for 36 months, for 20 employees for something more than a indie.
2.16M/40=54K copies.

The average sales for a game on Steam is 32K copies.
And my numbers for this example are veeeeeeeery conservative.

Make games is not sustainable anymore.

 

[Spaceman292]

dumb thread

 

[Shits_McGiggles]

Wrong.
We totally can.
There is nothing that says we MUST listen to woke folk and obey their stupid bullshit.
Just drop a pair and do it anyways. Ignore their twitter crying and REEEEEEEEEEEactions.

Just don't have aspirations for anything greater, because inevitably the system will shoot you down.

 

[Shits_McGiggles]

so you want far right games that offend people?

Yes

 

[jigglet]

so you want far right games that offend people?

way to play identify politics.

so if we're not far left, we must be far right? can't think in greys can you?

I identify as left - I'm a huge supporter of gay rights, liberal drug laws, equal rights for women etc etc, but I'm not one of those far left whackos.

 

[Rudius]

You may want to install steam.

I have done that, but it's mostly lower budget VR games taking risks.

 

[Rush2112]

Its not just politics, though. Back then we got half life, doom, and FEAR. Now we get fortnight and apex. The always online trend has ruined games as well.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

No, there is actually a thriving indie scene now with a ton of variety, something that couldn’t exist 20 years ago

Absolutely this.
Gaming is in a better space now than ever. For those who know to look beyond mainstream stuff.

Yeah, 95% of AAA is risk-averse casual shovelware that is more movie than game at this point.
So, what? No need to interact with it.
If your scope of gaming is only AAA, or you refuse to play games just because they don't fry newest GPUs, you have only yourself to blame for thinking gaming is in a bad state.

Of the ~150 games on my wishlist (I put everything in there I am even mildly interested in for the sake of following news) there are maybe 1 or 2 AAA games.
The only real negative development I see is that some games tend to have bad management/planning and end up in eternal early access.

 

[phil_t98]

way to play identify politics.

so if we're not far left, we must be far right? can't think in greys can you?

I identify as left - I'm a huge supporter of gay rights, liberal drug laws, equal rights for women etc etc, but I'm not one of those far left whackos.

you said far left and Chinese

I played a lot of games in the 80's and 90's and the only one I think that possibly be different now would be dukes nukem but maybe that could be even more graphic now.

I think as others said budgets are different and they make games to appeal to as many as poss across the board.

one thing you may not be remembering well is the 80's and early 90's gaming was a smaller market and was aimed towards nerds more. now there is a wide range of people that play games so I am guessing they time to be more widespread appealing to sell as many copies as possible.

out of interest what games do you think from back then wouldn't be made now?

 

[SmokedMeat]

I don’t get this fascination with AAA gaming. It’s nothing but safe sequels, and remasters/remakes, yet people focus so hard on that while ignoring the superior indie games that almost always offer deeper gameplay and more originality.

AAA is also the smallest segment of the industry.

I’m not totally sure what you’re looking for OP? We have nudity and full blown sex in games. The gore factor has only gotten more detailed. Expletives are common.

If you’re looking for characters that talk like Archie Bunker, then that’s something you never had in the ‘90s either.

 

[kuncol02]

Wage rises, but games cost the same as 30 years ago.

For example, in 1990 AA studios needed 20 people for a AA game, 1000$ per employee (numbers are just indicative)

20x1000x12months=240k/40$=6k copies.

Now it's like 3000k per employee, for 36 months, for 20 employees for something more than a indie.
2.16M/40=54K copies.

The average sales for a game on Steam is 32K copies.
And my numbers for this example are veeeeeeeery conservative.

Make games is not sustainable anymore.

Quake was made by 11 people (not counting bussines side). New port have like additional 50 people in production only and it's not some full fledged remake with brand new modern graphics and audio.