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Opinion Analysis Game Dev Graphics Analysis : 5 Best Games using PBR Shaders

ZehDon

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... If you think picking Marvel's Avengers as a game "that go the extra mile to get really good shaders that stand out among all the other games with much less complexity" over any Naughty Dog title (let's say ICE Team titles) delivered in this generation isn't "more than a little silly", i really don't know what to tell you.
The simple fact this matter appears so outrageous to you already shows how unacquainted you truly are on this topic.
Why are you attempting to hand me back someone else's opinion and then address it as if its mine or that I share it? Once again you're just advertising how "unacquainted" you are with the concept of "opinions". You really, really need to work on that.

My technical expertise in real time rendering or PBR in general is largely irrelevant to any answers I'd give to questions around "which games implement [visual feature] the best". I'd just pick the ones that I like the end result of the most. If someone from Bethesda told me Fallout 4's visuals are actually impressive because it has the best technical implementation of PBR in the industry, I'd just shrug: game isn't all that appealing to me visually, so I don't care how impressive its implementation is or isn't, I only care about the end result. You'll find similar sentiment everywhere; opinions vary quite a bit, even within industries... almost as if industries are comprised of individuals and aren't hive minds of identical "objective" opinions.

Instead of telling people they're opinions are wrong, might I suggest just accepting that opinions are always going to vary, and learn to enjoy exploring differing view points.
 

MarkMe2525

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But how? You posted examples from Avengers..

























Such as? Any example? Is there any kind of proof behind these claims?


How is it possible then, to completely dismiss everything i posted about Days Gone in the past, during a comparison to Horizon, to then claim some days ago it's the best looking game on PC?
Immediately after posting this (about Days Gone of all games):



Whouldn't someone who played all their games be already well aware about this?


You do not regard youself as such? Not even a little?
Don't you think your reaction score and post history tell a different story? Your resentment for Sony fans is totally fine, i'm referring to how unfairly, on technical point of view, you treated titles from their studios in the past, over and over again.


You're welcome. I remember the day Avatar Trailer dropped, after all the insane fuzz that preceded it, all we could think was how much better steel and motor oil on machines looked in the first Matrix. I'll never forget this.
But those were Framestore's shots as i later found out, and i've never been a big fan of that company in the first place and especially after the stolen 2008 Academy Award.


Yeah, you totally got the point.. thanks for the contribution to the Thread.
Dude...... can you take this to a private message or something, you are single handedly derailing a thread.
 
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SF Kosmo

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The Order 1886 came out ages ago and it still looks better than a lot of the shit that comes out today. Never played it though, reviews seemed to be really bad for it.
It's not a bad game, but it came out at a time when those linear cover shooters were really falling out of fashion in favor of longer, more open games. The fact that it's like 7 hours long really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way too.

But these days it's a $10 buy and you're probably less sick of Gears of War clones, so a much better buy. Graphics are gorgeous.

I do think RAD moving on to Lone Echo was for the best, though, love that game.
 
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Vick

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Once again you're just advertising how "unacquainted" you are with the concept of "opinions". You really, really need to work on that.
The moment you say "While Spiderman may have a lot of shaders (I had the original game on PS4), those weren't of the quality I see in Avengers." the discussion shifts from opinions towards facts.

To provide backbone to statements passed off as facts, you upload shader networks.





Naturally all that matters is the end result, but it's especially here that i think it's pretty obvious that what was posted of Avengers in OP doesn't really represents a poster child of "games that go the extra mile to get really good shaders that stand out among all the other games with much less complexity".

My technical expertise in real time rendering or PBR in general is largely irrelevant to any answers I'd give to questions around "which games implement [visual feature] the best". I'd just pick the ones that I like the end result of the most. If someone from Bethesda told me Fallout 4's visuals are actually impressive because it has the best technical implementation of PBR in the industry, I'd just shrug: game isn't all that appealing to me visually, so I don't care how impressive its implementation is or isn't
I think you're making it sound way more complicated than it really is, because unless you're particularly both unobservant and unknowledgeable, if your gamer brain register something as great looking chances are the technical background of the image is equally impressive, for what is being achieved on the hardware it has to run onto or not.

These shaders:



Or this lighting:





Not only should register as good looking, they should also trigger the thought of how uncommon the technical background is.

I only care about the end result.
Exacly, as pretty much every gamer. How many people you've heard praising the way Naughty Dog games look?
Or Spider-Man? Can't be all fanboys can they? Do Microsoft qualify as PS fanboy?

And how many you heard about Marvel's Avengers?

Is it really a matter of popularity, as sneakily suggested by OP?

Instead of telling people they're opinions are wrong, might I suggest just accepting that opinions are always going to vary, and learn to enjoy exploring differing view points.
I haven't said his opinions are wrong, i asked how could he possibly think PBR in Avengers deserved a mention, based on his written premises, over what is featured in ND games. And only got generic answers in return.

The fact is, i don't really need answers, because i'm perfectly aware of why Naughty Dog games weren't featured in the OP.

Dude...... can you take this to a private message or something, you are single handedly derailing a thread.
No worries, i'll leave now.
 
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ZehDon

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The moment you say "While Spiderman may have a lot of shaders (I had the original game on PS4), those weren't of the quality I see in Avengers." the discussion shifts from opinions towards facts...
... not in any way, shape or form? In fact, the line "weren't of the quality I see" shifts the statement firmly into the realm of opinions. The individual is sharing their point of view and provides some explanation for it to prompt further discussion. Everything else you've written is largely irrelevant because the foundation on which you've based it is wrong.

... Exacly, as pretty much every gamer. How many people you've heard praising the way Naughty Dog games look?
Or Spider-Man? Can't be all fanboys can they? Do Microsoft qualify as PS fanboy?...
How many people praising something doesn't detract from the validity of the opinions of people not praising something. Your snuck premise of "popular = objectively correct" is amusing because you've dismissed the OP due to this while doing it yourself.

I haven't said his opinions are wrong, i asked how could he possibly think PBR in Avengers deserved a mention, based on his written premises, over what is featured in ND games. And only got generic answers in return.
... so his opinion is not wrong, its just that his opinion can't possible be real? I'm sure this came across as more persuasive in your head.

The fact is, i don't really need answers, because i'm perfectly aware of why Naughty Dog games weren't featured in the OP.
Gotcha. It couldn't be that the OP has a personal preference that doesn't favour Naughty Dog's artistic choices... he must be anti-Naughty Dog! Or, anti-Sony! As opposed to you, who believes that no industry professional can possibly have an opinion that isn't "Naughty Dog are the best"? If the OP is in someway biased, where does that leave us in describing your opinion? Nowhere favourably, let me tell you.
 

VFXVeteran

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The moment you say "While Spiderman may have a lot of shaders (I had the original game on PS4), those weren't of the quality I see in Avengers." the discussion shifts from opinions towards facts.

To provide backbone to statements passed off as facts, you upload shader networks.
I can put a damper right here.

Spiderman doesn''t implement SSS on skin. Spiderman doesn't have hair shaders. Just having a shader network means nothing if that network only addresses a subset of materials for one character - regardless of his 20-30 different costumes. Avengers, by default, has more shader networks because of the sheer fact that it has several more heroes. Are you proposing that Avengers has *less* shaders that cover a variety of materials than Spiderman?

Also, shader networks have a lot of redundancies like in your images below. Just because they have more nodes don't make them complex. It's the final material that makes it more complex and where most of the math comes from.

On Uncharted 4, you will just have to believe my source as he worked on all the shaders for TLoU 2. He knows his shit and he came from CG industry.

Lastly, I challenge you to objectively show that Spiderman has more complex shaders than all of the Avengers characters. Because even if you think they are a draw, I still reserve the right to pick Avengers.
 

Vick

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Ok, last one and i'll leave.

I can put a damper right here.

Spiderman doesn''t implement SSS on skin.
Oh really?

"sub-surface scattering is used during cut-scenes, allowing light to penetrate the skin and scatter about realistically beneath the surface. Meanwhile, materials-based lighting is remarkable - the leather of Mary Jane's jacket is a stand-out example."


The article only mentioning cutscenes doesn't mean it isn't implemented in-game as well.







So weird to hear such incorrect statements from a professional claiming to have played these games.

But not really, as i've just accepted this as common routine in these discussions with you.

Spiderman doesn't have hair shaders.
Excuse me?

Just having a shader network means nothing if that network only addresses a subset of materials for one character - regardless of his 20-30 different costumes. Avengers, by default, has more shader networks because of the sheer fact that it has several more heroes.
You don't know that. Where are proofs?

Also, shader networks have a lot of redundancies like in your images below. Just because they have more nodes don't make them complex. It's the final material that makes it more complex and where most of the math comes from.
Where are Avengers material networks? Post them so objective comparisons can be made.

Lastly, I challenge you to objectively show that Spiderman has more complex shaders than all of the Avengers characters. Because even if you think they are a draw, I still reserve the right to pick Avengers.
I think i did my part already.. this should be your turn.

Wrong? Do you work at Crystal Dynamics? Or a Sony-house? If you work at CD, then please correct me.
Do you?
Or did your friends at ND told you how many more assets there were in Avengers compared to their game?

I just don't understand.. even excluding the Multiplayer, how is it possible, for fuck sake, to play Uncharted 4 and come up with this after witnessing first hand the literally thousands and thousands of assets/materials of the game?
 

VFXVeteran

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Ok, last one and i'll leave.


Oh really?

"sub-surface scattering is used during cut-scenes, allowing light to penetrate the skin and scatter about realistically beneath the surface. Meanwhile, materials-based lighting is remarkable - the leather of Mary Jane's jacket is a stand-out example."
I never ever count cut-scenes in games. Never. It's a waste when the gameplay loop is what the hardware can really do. ALL of my analysis is during gamplay.

I'm sorry you feel offended at my picks. Just use your internet search and make a thread of your own analysis so everyone can see.

As it is now, you and your buddy are coming off as back-seat drivers and I hate that.
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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Cut scenes? Thought we were talking about gameplay here? If we're counting cutscenes, we might as well be debating CGI movies only.
 
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Vick

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I never ever count cut-scenes in games. Never. It's a waste when the gameplay loop is what the hardware can really do.
I know this very well. And that's why i posted in-game gameplay pictures, and i only ever take in-game screeshots.

So you were saying?

And what about the rest of the post? What do you mean by hair shaders?

Cut scenes? Thought we were talking about gameplay here? If we're counting cutscenes, we might as well be debating CGI movies only.
And where exaclty did you see cutscenes?

Or you only came in here to leave "fire" under any post from your guru without even read/understand what's being discussed?
 
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VFXVeteran

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I know this very well. And that's why i posted in-game gameplay pictures, and i only even take in-game screeshots.

So you were saying?

And what about the rest of the post? What do you mean by hair shaders?

Dude you are coming across as a troll right now. If you can't objectively prove that Avenger's shaders are *inferior* to Spiderman, then why are you derailing this thread? Again, I challenge you.. make a technical thread and I'll come in it and critique. I would love for stealth developers on here to do this without being backseat drivers. If they want to educate these people other than me, then go for it! I shouldn't be the only one with a tag under my name because a lot of them are too scared to be "seen" as an industry professional.
 
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Vick

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Dude you are coming across as a troll right now.
How exaclty? By proving you wrong?

By asking clarifications on outlandish claims like these?
Spiderman doesn't have hair shaders.

As it is now, you and your buddy are coming off as back-seat drivers and I hate that.
I'm not the one surrounded by protective minions though, i am?
You're in such a position you can make blatant false claims and still being supported. I don't really believe you have the right to complain.
 

VFXVeteran

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How exaclty? By proving you wrong?

By asking clarifications on outlandish claims like these?



I'm not the one surrounded by protective minions though, i am?
You're in such a position you can make blatant false claims and still being supported. I don't really believe you have the right to complain.
The character scope of Spiderman isn't the same as Avengers. I'm not going to swing around town trying to find a person with hair shaders and skin shaders to evaluate that. Spiderman "himself" doesn't have those things while in gameplay mode 90% of the time because people aren't using Peter Parker skin. If you can walk around as Peter Parker, that hair shader would be inferior to Thor's blond hair. Hulk has SSS, Black window has a good spec lobe hair shader. So do most of the females. My point has been made. I see a hell of a lot of shader variation in Avengers because, well, there's over 7 heroes with tons of costumes.

You can go ahead talking about how I told a lie all you want. I think most people don't claim Spiderman to have hair shaders or skin shaders because a) they use the costume 90% of the time and b) they wouldn't think Peter Parker has anything fancy going on compared to the Avengers characters.
 
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Vick

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I'm not going to swing around town trying to find a person with hair shaders and skin shaders to evaluate that.
Are you aware 30% of the game is spent as Peter Parker? Often inside the F.E.A.S.T., with tons of people/assets?

Spiderman "himself" doesn't have those things while in gameplay mode 90% of the time because people aren't using Peter Parker skin.
You are using Peter Parker in the game though, alot.

If you can walk around as Peter Parker, that hair shader would be inferior to Thor's blond hair.
You mean these hair?



I don't even have to mention the PS5 Remaster, if you consider Peter Parker's hair inferior to these in the PS4 version, while walking on the streets in the DLC, or that the same is true for Mary Jane's hair everytime you play as her, i really don't know what to say.
In the sense i'm literally speechless.

You can go ahead talking about how I told a lie all you want.
Didn't you just say that Spider-Man doesn't implement SSS on skin?

I think most people don't claim Spiderman to have hair shaders or skin shaders because a) they use the costume 90% of the time and b) they wouldn't think Peter Parker has anything fancy going on compared to the Avengers characters.
Better hair, eye, skin and cloth shaders doesn't count?

Wow! Is the light bouncing from flash light? Is it some form of software Raytracing?
It is.






Impressive right? A simplified/dithered version was even present in the first The Last of Us on PS3, almost a decade ago.
 

DonJuanSchlong

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And where exaclty did you see cutscenes?

Or you only came in here to leave "fire" under any post from your guru without even read/understand what's being discussed?


Right here??
Ok, last one and i'll leave.


Oh really?

"sub-surface scattering is used during cut-scenes, allowing light to penetrate the skin and scatter about realistically beneath the surface. Meanwhile, materials-based lighting is remarkable - the leather of Mary Jane's jacket is a stand-out example."


The article only mentioning cutscenes doesn't mean it isn't implemented in-game as well.







So weird to hear such incorrect statements from a professional claiming to have played these games.

But not really, as i've just accepted this as common routine in these discussions with you.


Excuse me?


You don't know that. Where are proofs?


Where are Avengers material networks? Post them so objective comparisons can be made.


I think i did my part already.. this should be your turn.


Do you?
Or did your friends at ND told you how many more assets there were in Avengers compared to their game?

I just don't understand.. even excluding the Multiplayer, how is it possible, for fuck sake, to play Uncharted 4 and come up with this after witnessing first hand the literally thousands and thousands of assets/materials of the game?
 

Vick

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So cutscenes and in the F.E.A.S.T mainly? But not in majority or all the time in GAMEPLAY? Ok.
Does Grand Station look like a homeless shelter to you?

Didn't really dispute much.
So proving the game features SSS after being claimed otherwise, doesn't really count because you don't play as normal people for 100% of the game.. a Spider-Man game. Got it.

 

Bo_Hazem

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Salalah, Oman
The moment you say "While Spiderman may have a lot of shaders (I had the original game on PS4), those weren't of the quality I see in Avengers." the discussion shifts from opinions towards facts.

To provide backbone to statements passed off as facts, you upload shader networks.





Naturally all that matters is the end result, but it's especially here that i think it's pretty obvious that what was posted of Avengers in OP doesn't really represents a poster child of "games that go the extra mile to get really good shaders that stand out among all the other games with much less complexity".


I think you're making it sound way more complicated than it really is, because unless you're particularly both unobservant and unknowledgeable, if your gamer brain register something as great looking chances are the technical background of the image is equally impressive, for what is being achieved on the hardware it has to run onto or not.

These shaders:



Or this lighting:





Not only should register as good looking, they should also trigger the thought of how uncommon the technical background is.


Exacly, as pretty much every gamer. How many people you've heard praising the way Naughty Dog games look?
Or Spider-Man? Can't be all fanboys can they? Do Microsoft qualify as PS fanboy?

And how many you heard about Marvel's Avengers?

Is it really a matter of popularity, as sneakily suggested by OP?


I haven't said his opinions are wrong, i asked how could he possibly think PBR in Avengers deserved a mention, based on his written premises, over what is featured in ND games. And only got generic answers in return.

The fact is, i don't really need answers, because i'm perfectly aware of why Naughty Dog games weren't featured in the OP.


No worries, i'll leave now.

You crushed them there with solid inputs and evidence. Man, some just like to swim against the stream, even if they are wrong, just to feel smart according to Einstein:





Sadly, it's not the case here.
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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Does Grand Station look like a homeless shelter to you?


So proving the game features SSS after being claimed otherwise, doesn't really count because you don't play as normal people for 100% of the game.. a Spider-Man game. Got it.

The point was avengers uses better SSS regardless of it's very rare implementation in Spiderman. That's the point. Better than a first party exclusive. Hopefully that changes in the PC release.




 
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DonJuanSchlong

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That's in game model. He screenshot directly, not even a photo mode
Already started in my previous post. Avengers still uses a better implementation of SSS even though it's rare on spiderman. Mostly in cinematics or out of costume. But the end result is still better implemented in avengers, which is a 3rd party game nonetheless.
 
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VFXVeteran

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This argument is moot. I picked Avengers because that's what I chose. I don't have the time to debate why I chose Avengers on subjectivity. It's stupid. Several of these companies implement PBR shaders. I picked the ones I did because they displayed really nice shaders. It's really as simple as that.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Salalah, Oman
This argument is moot. I picked Avengers because that's what I chose. I don't have the time to debate why I chose Avengers on subjectivity. It's stupid. Several of these companies implement PBR shaders. I picked the ones I did because they displayed really nice shaders. It's really as simple as that.

This is fair indeed. Maybe a disclaimer in the OP would solve that. Put in mind that people even though could be on your nick sometimes is because you're not just a random guy, so people don't expect you to pick things carelessly without a purpose.

Just like an insider, people don't expect him to say something out of his ass unless he says it's just a speculation as a disclaimer.
 
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VFXVeteran

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This is fair indeed. Maybe a disclaimer in the OP would solve that. Put in mind that people even though could be on your nick sometimes is because you're not just a random guy, so people don't expect you to pick things carelessly without a purpose.
"In no particular order, here are my top 5 picks of games that go the extra mile to get really good shaders that stand out among all the other games with much less complexity."

That should have been enough.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Salalah, Oman
"In no particular order, here are my top 5 picks of games that go the extra mile to get really good shaders that stand out among all the other games with much less complexity."

That should have been enough.

All good, but don't forget that this is the title:

Graphics Analysis : 5 Best Games using PBR Shaders​


Also as I said, if I made that list you won't expect similar interactions because I'm just a regular gamer with no technical background. If anything, this only proves that people take you seriously, which should be, and you might need to be more mindful with what you type.

Only a friendly advice, and hope you the best.
 
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Vick

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Already started in my previous post. Avengers still uses a better implementation of SSS even though it's rare on spiderman. Mostly in cinematics or out of costume. But the end result is still better implemented in avengers, which is a 3rd party game nonetheless.

This argument is moot. I picked Avengers because that's what I chose. I don't have the time to debate why I chose Avengers on subjectivity. It's stupid
There's no need to, it's crystal clear why you didn't pick Naughty Dog PBR implementation.

I picked the ones I did because they displayed really nice shaders. It's really as simple as that.
Fine. I can go to bed now.
 
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DGrayson

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The thread has an opinion tag. therefore we can all read and see this is the OP opinion.

If you want to diuscss other games bring them up. But dont assume the OP has some agenda because he didnt discuss a game YOU think has the best shaders for whatever reason. Thats why we have threads and discussions. Everyone can bring in their own experience and opinions.
 
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Vick

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But dont assume the OP has some agenda because he didnt discuss a game YOU think has the best shaders for whatever reason.
Must have imagined him being banned by you guys for something like 100 times and always for the same reason.

Thats why we have threads and discussions. Everyone can bring in their own experience and opinions.
Sure. Sorry for the Thread derail.
 
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Bernd Lauert

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I somehow missed this thread. It's a good one, and "shockingly" still on page 1. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Not enough controversy I guess.

I really want MS Flight Simulator on SX. That fighter pilot footage looked awesome.
Now you got your controversy :messenger_beaming: OP dared to not include games from someone's favorite toy maker, so this thread came to life again.
 

Vick

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Now you got your controversy :messenger_beaming: OP dared to not include games from someone's favorite toy maker, so this thread came to life again.
Kind of ironic being dismissed as a console warrior of some kind, after never indulging not even once in your kind of tribalism since the day i signed up here, by one of the most prominent and childish console warriors on the board.