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First Official Photo from Amazon's Lord of the Rings (Premieres Friday, September 2, 2022 on Prime Video)

ManaByte

Gold Member
poor guy being used as marketing fodder from beyond the grave

That's not really it. The Tolkien Estate told Jackson to go fuck himself and rejected ALL of those movies, which is why "Tolkien Scholars" were used. I guarantee the "Tolkien Scholar" on this left because he clashed heads with the Estate, which is running the show here.
 

DadEggs

Member
That's not really it. The Tolkien Estate told Jackson to go fuck himself and rejected ALL of those movies, which is why "Tolkien Scholars" were used. I guarantee the "Tolkien Scholar" on this left because he clashed heads with the Estate, which is running the show here.

the tolkien estate clashing/supporting different productions doesn't refute the fact that JRRT name/likeness is being used to promote, target, and reach his audience. it's moot.

"J.R.R.Tolkien" is writing promotional material - not really sure how thats not marketing by a dead guy.

the account should be labeled "The Tolkien Estate" and not taking advantage of his name and likeness to target his followers. the same fans they're reaching out to would just as much follow the current estate's page/accounts.

anyways im not looking to argue, i just think youre point is a bit tangential to mine. (note i have no problem with your og post. its nice to see that the estate is supporting it, contrary to jacksons movies, which their main dissatisfaction comes from important scenes/arcs being cut and media/movies being made for mass appeal by focusing too much on fighting/battles thus changing the feel and philosophy of the written stories)
 
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Comedy Reaction GIF by Jo Koy
All must be unified, if you try to avoid unity of belief, your mind will end up like a broken record. Realize all these series you're watching are reflections of the writers, the authors world and lives, of the real world, and they are thus all related at a fundamental level with many levels of connection. Your attempt to keep them disconnected and trying to label the lessons in them as nonsense, is merely a simple psychological defense to protect the integrity of your ego. But the world and the community around you is being assimilated, as are all communities at a global level. So unless you're going to be living in a cabin in the woods separate from humans, you too will be assimilated into the global truth that is starting to envelop the world.
Foundation in September, Wheel of Time in November, and hopefully season 2's of these next year when LoTR drops. Finally some of the best non-comic book IPs dropping!
These works have lot of resonance, and same internal logic, they connect to each other via the meaning they convey.
The Tolkien Estate is promoting this. They NEVER would do that with any of Jackson's movies.

The estate are current people, if this is filled with political ideology of their liking they could praise it to high heaven. Though there is a chance there is no modern day politics in this work(I'd be very surprised considering academia has become politicized to the brim including the arts where artists and writers learn.).

People have to understand equality is fine, equality of opportunity, not of outcome. There is difference in innate ability in vast majority of cases and in luck and many other naturally occurring sources of variation that lead people to different outcomes even in the cases with similar or identical ability.

Nothing wrong with a diverse cast, or promoting female empowerment(though I would say females can be powerful while embracing the feminine nature without needing to be pale imitations of male characters.). In fact diversity is good, so that people can see themselves represented. Though people like me only have eyes for perfection, which is why CG digital art such as in FFBE attracts us so, ceramic perfect blemish free skin regardless of color, though I do have preferences in color.

At the same time there has to be pushback, if the story is turned on its head and hatred is expressed explicitly or implicitly against certain genders or races. Sorry but Sexism, hatred and racism renaming such does not change their nature, their nature transcends naming or symbolic conventions.
 

Thaedolus

Gold Member
All must be unified, if you try to avoid unity of belief, your mind will end up like a broken record. Realize all these series you're watching are reflections of the writers, the authors world and lives, of the real world, and they are thus all related at a fundamental level with many levels of connection. Your attempt to keep them disconnected and trying to label the lessons in them as nonsense, is merely a simple psychological defense to protect the integrity of your ego. But the world and the community around you is being assimilated, as are all communities at a global level. So unless you're going to be living in a cabin in the woods separate from humans, you too will be assimilated into the global truth that is starting to envelop the world.

These works have lot of resonance, and same internal logic, they connect to each other via the meaning they convey.

The estate are current people, if this is filled with political ideology of their liking they could praise it to high heaven. Though there is a chance there is no modern day politics in this work(I'd be very surprised considering academia has become politicized to the brim including the arts where artists and writers learn.).

People have to understand equality is fine, equality of opportunity, not of outcome. There is difference in innate ability in vast majority of cases and in luck and many other naturally occurring sources of variation that lead people to different outcomes even in the cases with similar or identical ability.

Nothing wrong with a diverse cast, or promoting female empowerment(though I would say females can be powerful while embracing the feminine nature without needing to be pale imitations of male characters.). In fact diversity is good, so that people can see themselves represented. Though people like me only have eyes for perfection, which is why CG digital art such as in FFBE attracts us so, ceramic perfect blemish free skin regardless of color, though I do have preferences in color.

At the same time there has to be pushback, if the story is turned on its head and hatred is expressed explicitly or implicitly against certain genders or races. Sorry but Sexism, hatred and racism renaming such does not change their nature, their nature transcends naming or symbolic conventions.

So anyway, the image in the OP looks pretty great, right?
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
The Tolkien Estate is promoting this. They NEVER would do that with any of Jackson's movies.

Yeah they totally didn't tweet out the Jackson trilogy, in 2001-3, several years before Twitter lol

(and good lord every single fucking media thread filled with this rambling about woke this woke that, seriously nauseating and why I barely even look at this side anymore)
 
I am not excited for this series specifically because I don't trust the current Tolkien Estate. I could understand Christopher's stance.
Christopher retired in August 2017. In September, it was reported that Bezos was looking for his own Game of Thrones. That same month, the Estate started shopping around the concept of the show. The deal was signed in November, with the Estate getting an immediate $250 million payment. Now it seems that Amazon has more rights than it was originally revealed.
What if the Weinsteins kept the LOTR project back in the '90s? That's the vibe this show is giving me.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I am not excited for this series specifically because I don't trust the current Tolkien Estate. I could understand Christopher's stance.
Christopher retired in August 2017. In September, it was reported that Bezos was looking for his own Game of Thrones. That same month, the Estate started shopping around the concept of the show. The deal was signed in November, with the Estate getting an immediate $250 million payment. Now it seems that Amazon has more rights than it was originally revealed.
What if the Weinsteins kept the LOTR project back in the '90s? That's the vibe this show is giving me.
I don't get it; Christopher allowed the movies he then despised.. so what would the difference be?
 
I don't get it; Christopher allowed the movies he then despised.. so what would the difference be?
He didn't allow the movies. JRR sold the rights in the 60s because he need some cash, and because he didn't think a studio would actually be able to pull it off.

Chris took a protectionary stance after his dad passed because he could sense the vultures coming. He didn't sell any additional rights, such as any of the content from the Silmarillion or any of the other posthumous titles he editted.
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
Yeah they totally didn't tweet out the Jackson trilogy, in 2001-3, several years before Twitter lol
They famously hated and distanced themselves from Jackson's movies (IIRC they even tried to stop them from being made). And Twitter existed when The Hobbit movies we released. Doesn't change the reality that they turned their backs on the movies entirely but are fully supporting this because Amazon allowed them to have full control in exchange for being able to use everything in The Silmarillion and Lost Tales.
 
I don't get it; Christopher allowed the movies he then despised.. so what would the difference be?
Christopher only spoke once publically about the movies, in 2012, and all he said is “They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people 15 to 25", which is a fair assessment. For someone who was his father's primary audience, editor and literary executor, that's very charitable.
In 2001, before FOTR came out, his stance was that he felt Tolkien is not suitable for an adaptation, but "On the other hand, I recognize that this is a debatable and complex question of art, and the suggestions that have been made that I 'disapprove' of the films, whatever their cinematic quality, even to the extent of thinking ill of those with whom I may differ, are wholly without foundation." In 2009 he approved the development of The Hobbit movies.

His actual problem was with the commercialisation of Tolkien - which is again fair. The Estate, Warner, Zaentz and New Line had bitter disputes (which at one point included lawsuits over slot machines). "The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. The commercialization has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: to turn my head away." This is from the same interview as the "15 to 25" statement and it's wrongly reported as part of his feedback for the movies - he was actually going on a tangent about their cultural and commercial impact.
Another thing he didn't appreciate was how Jackson, Howe and Lee's vision of Middle-Earth instantly eclipsed all other versions (I admit I became allergic to anything that's not in the style of the movies).
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I don't expect this will be good at all, considering Amazon, but I would be lying if I said that photo doesn't get me a little bit hyped.
 
They famously hated and distanced themselves from Jackson's movies (IIRC they even tried to stop them from being made). And Twitter existed when The Hobbit movies we released. Doesn't change the reality that they turned their backs on the movies entirely but are fully supporting this because Amazon allowed them to have full control in exchange for being able to use everything in The Silmarillion and Lost Tales.
If they hated those movies, some of the best movies ever made, that makes me way less excited for this.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
If they hated those movies, some of the best movies ever made, that makes me way less excited for this.

I think most of their criticism was how they were kind of "dumbed down" and filled with action in a deviation from the books. This was taken to eleven with The Hobbit movies.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
So there probably won't be a lot of action in the show.

I personally hope it's a lot less. The ridiculous amount of insane spectacle in The Hobbit trilogy specifically just made it all feel meaningless and like I was being shown a shitty CG trailer for the latest Hero Shooter or something.
 
I personally hope it's a lot less. The ridiculous amount of insane spectacle in The Hobbit trilogy specifically just made it all feel meaningless and like I was being shown a shitty CG trailer for the latest Hero Shooter or something.
But we weren't talking about the Hobbit movies, which were garbage.
 
I truly think it would be too much to ask to have a good middle-earth show. I don’t trust western studios to make a good product out of the source material.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Really hoping they nail this and throw some money towards the writers too.

Fully expecting Twitter meltdowns at the sight of a Hispanic Elrond though.

I think that's gonna happen when the first photos of black hobbits see the light. (This is not a joke, Lenny Hennry is cast as one).
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
So are we betting Amazon will use this as a way to split Prime Video from Prime sub? Or the opposite - people will massively sign up for Prime to watch LotR and then say “huh, got a year of free deliveries, might as well order more on Amazon”?

That Amazon stock bought in the middle of March 2020 is looking better and better :)
 
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Hari Seldon

Gold Member
So are we betting Amazon will use this as a way to split Prime Video from Prime sub? Or the opposite - people will massively sign up for Prime to watch LotR and then say “huh, got a year of free deliveries, might as well order more on Amazon”?

That Amazon stock bought in the middle of March 2020 is looking better and better :)
I think it is more like, "Hopefully people still pay for Prime because we need to walk back this 2 day delivery shit". I don't get 2 day deliveries anymore from Prime. I have been a member since it first came out but will be dropping it after WoT and picking it back up for season 2 of WoT and LoTR, so this strategy is 100% working for me.
 

IDKFA

Member
At least that would be easier to accept. After all, hobbits are not real so they play by their own rules and I can somewhat buy them having diverse ethnicities. With humans, we have the real world as comparison and it becomes jarring when it goes against everything we know. Especially when we know why they’ve done it and it’s not because it makes sense for the WoT world. That said, there are several other more significant issues with the show and I’ve somewhat gotten used to the diverse casting already.

I think it's better we take the conversation here rather than clogging up the WoT thread with Amazon LOTR talk.

Anyway, I guess if they were just black you could argue for it. The Harfoot hobbits were described by Tolkien as having "darker" skin, but he was thinking of how Greeks or Spanish people have darker skin to say Northern European people. I'm not sure how they're going to explain brown, Asian and even Maori hobbits all in the same location.

Unless they don't plan to. I think as they want to reach a global audience, we'll also see racially diverse humans, elves and dwarves. That would make more sense that just a group of racially diverse hobbits.
 

jason10mm

Member
Good call IDKFA.

For a LOTR adaptation I think there should be a more....conventional and literal casting with virtually all traditional european actors other than the handful needed to represent Southrons or whatever.

But for this, depending on exactly what stories they are adapting, it could be more cosmopolitan and global so long as they put in the effort to demonstrate that global nature. A Hobbit from the northern part of M-E that hasn't left their little Shire for 20 generations ought to be a lighter skinned person IMHO. But if there is a Hobbit from another land introduced who is asian, I'm ok with that, who is to say that humans and hobbits can't intermingle anyway (I've seen videos :p)? Some elves, or at least known half-elves, could be of a different ethnicity than the rest for this reason as well.

Numenorians could have folks that come in from across the known world, though again I feel like the core "native" population ought to be fairly homogenous within themselves and of course since they were prohibited from heading West, there shouldn't be any NA or latinos cast. Though you might make the argument that ELVES, coming from Aman/the Undying Lands as proxy for the Americas, could be NA?

I still want at least a few eps of this show to depict a flat planet and the weird effects that would have on distance perception, then when the world is made spherical it could go to normal.
 

BouncyFrag

Member
The Silmarillion is a tough read but The New Tolkien Companion by JEA Tyler really helps make sense of all obscure middle-earth references allowing you to enjoy the massive history of Tolkien’s world. Keeping track of all the elven names that start with the letter F alone is a daunting task, lol. Re-reading the LoTR trilogy after getting a handle of The Silmarillion is worth the time and effort.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
I think it is more like, "Hopefully people still pay for Prime because we need to walk back this 2 day delivery shit". I don't get 2 day deliveries anymore from Prime. I have been a member since it first came out but will be dropping it after WoT and picking it back up for season 2 of WoT and LoTR, so this strategy is 100% working for me.
weird, where are you at? if anything Prime has improved for us in DFW. we now get same day delivery options on many things, and one day has become the standard for 90% of prime shipped things
 

IDKFA

Member
Good call IDKFA.

For a LOTR adaptation I think there should be a more....conventional and literal casting with virtually all traditional european actors other than the handful needed to represent Southrons or whatever.

But for this, depending on exactly what stories they are adapting, it could be more cosmopolitan and global so long as they put in the effort to demonstrate that global nature. A Hobbit from the northern part of M-E that hasn't left their little Shire for 20 generations ought to be a lighter skinned person IMHO. But if there is a Hobbit from another land introduced who is asian, I'm ok with that, who is to say that humans and hobbits can't intermingle anyway (I've seen videos :p)? Some elves, or at least known half-elves, could be of a different ethnicity than the rest for this reason as well.

Numenorians could have folks that come in from across the known world, though again I feel like the core "native" population ought to be fairly homogenous within themselves and of course since they were prohibited from heading West, there shouldn't be any NA or latinos cast. Though you might make the argument that ELVES, coming from Aman/the Undying Lands as proxy for the Americas, could be NA?

I still want at least a few eps of this show to depict a flat planet and the weird effects that would have on distance perception, then when the world is made spherical it could go to normal.

I'm torn on the subject. Like, really torn.

A few months ago I was all for race blind casting. I thought it would be really progressive and brace to have black Hobbits and Asian Eleves etc. However, I've been thinking more about it and I'm not sure I'm totally on board.

I need to be careful with my wording here, because I understand that saying I'm not okay with race blind casting in this show could possibly label me as a racist, but I'll try and explain the best I can.

Middle-earth isn't just a made up place that Tolkien shat out to write a novel. It's inspired by his passion for Germanic mythology, history and legend. He also wanted to create a mythology for the English. It therefore is reasonable to suggest that the characters are white, because they're based on a fantasy version of Northern Europe set thousands of years ago. Even a majority of the names are based on old Germanic languages.

But imagine a casting director in 2021 refusing an actor or extra because they're not white. That seems wrong right? Which is why I'm sure as confirmed with the Hobbits, we'll also get racially diverse Eleves and Dwarfs etc. I know Tolkien would probably disagree, but we live in a different time and we should be looking past skin colour. It shouldn't make a difference.

However, another fantasy adaption I'm looking forward to is Michael B Jordan's take on Black Leopard Red Wolf (book one in the Dark Star trilogy). This is still being made. Marlon James (the author) confirmed recently it's delayed because of Covid, but still going ahead.

Now, because this series is set in a fantasy version of Africa and is based on African mythology, history and legends, then I'm more than 100% sure the cast will be all black. And for me, that's not an issue. I support that because of the setting. It wouldn't make any sense to have a white actor play Tracker. However, I'm then a hypocrite because I didn't want anyone being rejected in Lord of the Rings because of their skin colour, so why am I okay with it here?

Same goes for City of Brass. I'm totally down for that adaption to have no white actors because of it's setting. It's set in a fantasy Middle East and casting white people wouldn't make sense.

I can't decide. I mentioned it to some guy at work, who told me that I might need to check my privilege. Maybe he's right.
 

jason10mm

Member
Nah, that guy is just full of wokeshit.

Color blind isn't the same as color wheel casting. Color wheel is finding every damn ethnicity under the sun to include so the marketing can hit every possible quadrant. It doesn't care about source material or the script related ethnic quandaries.

Color blind is finding that PERFECT actor that happens to not fit the character conception, then changing what is necessary to make the actor fit. Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury is an example of this. SLJ is the PERFECT Fury, but he isn't trying to fill the shoes of old white Fury. His character is changed to fit him.

Just like if Ryan Gosling was the PERFECT new Black Panther. You'd love it but you'd also expect some sort of throwaway line to explain how this white guy was the 3rd cousin of T'challa or whatever was necessary to fit him into the world of Wakanda.

Color wheel is having each tribe of wakanda with the same sampling of seeming random yet perfectly representative ethnicities from around the globe but the script still adheres to this isolationist Wakanda image that they don't go out and bring in anyone new.

The problem here is studios pushing the same old european derived IPs (hey, yet ANOTHER english monarchy script, yay!!!) because they are terrified of anything new yet they also want to eat their cake on social media by casting all these other ethnicities to check the box and not be yelled at by .005% of twitter vultures.

Don't sell me on a viking show if the cast doesn't look like vikings. Go make it about Moroccan pirates or something instead!
 

Hari Seldon

Gold Member
weird, where are you at? if anything Prime has improved for us in DFW. we now get same day delivery options on many things, and one day has become the standard for 90% of prime shipped things
Actually it has gotten a lot better since I made that post.
 
Why is it always 'thousands of years' before? The look and vibe is very 2000 LOTR. So setting it thousands of years before makes no sense. I mean, just look at the earth 100 years ago. Look at the way it was in 22 AD. TOTALLY different than now. They should have just made it a few hundred years prior (at most)!
 
Why is it always 'thousands of years' before? The look and vibe is very 2000 LOTR. So setting it thousands of years before makes no sense. I mean, just look at the earth 100 years ago. Look at the way it was in 22 AD. TOTALLY different than now. They should have just made it a few hundred years prior (at most)!
They have to stick to LotR canon.
 
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