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[PepsimanVsJoe]

All getting rid of Gamestop will accomplish is it will spread their stranglehold on the used game market out to hundreds of online retailers who are all doing pretty much the exact same thing. Some clever fellow is going to work out a system where people can conveniently mail in their games for store credit and we'll be right back where we started.

Stranglehold is a bit strong of a word anyway, considering outside of being the most convenient Gamestop is really not the biggest in terms of the used game market. Every day tons of people are buying & selling used games through various online services. It's really not something you can expect to gain control of.

These publishers are looking at DD-only to solve all problems and it just isn't working.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

A better point to raise if no-one else is that "Les" has bought "very few" digital distro titles. This means all of Steam, PSN, XBLA and WiiWare and all the indie devs on them there can go fuck themselves as far as he's concerned because he can't resell their game.

Fuck you Les! You've missed out on this generations best games.

I don't share his point of view, but I understand him as a consumer, nothing beats that "owning a physical copy of the game" that the "right to play our game, on your console or your account, no resale and you can't have your money back".

 

[Sushen]

Typical games got 70-80% sales from the first month and after 6 month or so, the sales die out with except of things like Mario Kart DS. I don't know if publishers care about if the game will continue to sell 6 month from the release that much.

 

[Peronthious]

Do consumers have the right to try and get the best deal for their purchases? Yes. Do developers/publishers have the right to try and "beat" the used game market and make as much as they can from each consumer? Definitely.

There you go.

The only issues I have with the used game business is that used games are most times directly marketed to the consumer in lieu of new games, but this is an issue between publishers and gamestop.

 

[VGChampion]

I've never heard of this Les guy before and I really feel he's trying to start an argument just to argue. I hate people like that. I'm actually surprised people like Jaffe took their time to reply to him.

And I don't purchase used games because I'm trying to support the developer but because used games at GameStop are almost universally in such bad condition be it the game or case, I just go new now. That's how it is with most places. Because of them, I don't buy used at other stores or the Internet unless it's an older title that isn't being sold new anymore.

I don't think a single thread on an internet forum can do that but OK.

Well, to be honest, every time I see you're name I think of that thread. :lol

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

I don't share his point of view, but I understand him as a consumer, nothing beats that "owning a physical copy of the game" that the "right to play your game, on your console or your account, no resale and you can't have your money back".

Well I've found that nothing beats having games all on the system ready to boot up straight away without having to switch out discs and whatnot. Also, PSN makes the "Game Sharing" concession so sometimes I'll go in on a game with a mate and share it, but then I imagine Jaffe certainly isn't a fan of that :lol

 

[Raist]

Why would that matter at all? A private seller, a dealership...whoever owns the place sees the profit. The manufacturer doesn't. That's how used works. Anything else?

Of course that matters. A private seller (which is the most common way to buy a used car) bought a car, and sold it for less than what he had to pay. He didn't make any profit out of it. Unlike stores who sell you used games. As for dealerships, they don't have the same model, in the same condition, standing right by the used one. And the new model wasn't likely out a couple of weeks ago.

It's a whole picture thing. You cannot make comparisons because "it's a used market as well".

 

[Noshino]

Um, yes. Stores sell things to earn revenue and profit. Boy, how dare gamestop make a sales pitch, huh? I would like you to find me the store where the salespeople make it a point to tell people that their store DOESN'T offer the best price.

And as others have said, I've never, ever been sold a used game at Gamestop, and I've regularly frequented six Gamestops in my area. Maybe you should go and complain to your local salesmen.

Here's an idea that'll please everyone. Since it's just unfair that Gamestop is making so much money off of used game sales, we should all promote Goozex so that instead of selling back to gamestop, game owners can just trade with each other. This way, gamestop doesn't get as much consumer dollars, and we'll all stop complaining since it'll no longer be ripping off the customers, right?

That's good compromise? I thought so. I'm sure a solution like this will please everyone and someone like Jaffe can now feel that a large game retailer is not ripping them off.

Sure, use Goozex, the difference is that the money that is being spent at GameStop trading and buying afterwards could be spent on a new game.

Anyway, I hear you Pepsiman & Gravijah, and they don't do it to me either, but I have seen them doing it to other people. Even worse is that many employees will actually tell you that it is true, and if Im not mistaken, they even have to meet a used game sales quota.


Davidion, the fact that they are a business running under a capitalist system doesn't excuse their practices.

 

[JSnake]

Well, to be honest, every time I see you're name I think of that thread. :lol

Yeah I'm not saying that isn't the case but uh, I really doubt that thread is gonna keep me from getting a job or keep me down in any other way.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

I've never heard of this Les guy before and I really feel he's trying to start an argument just to argue. I hate people like that. I'm actually surprised people like Jaffe took their time to reply to him.

Considering Jaffe actually posts in this forum I'm not at all surprised he'd argue with a random guy via twitter.

 

[Gravijah]

Well I've found that nothing beats having games all on the system ready to boot up straight away without having to switch out discs and whatnot. Also, PSN makes the "Game Sharing" concession so sometimes I'll go in on a game with a mate and share it, but then I imagine Jaffe certainly isn't a fan of that :lol

Can't we just have... both?

Of course that matters. A private seller (which is the most common way to buy a used car) bought a car, and sold it for less than what he had to pay. He didn't make any profit out of it. Unlike stores who sell you used games. As for dealerships, they don't have the same model, in the same condition, standing right by the used one. And the new model wasn't likely out a couple of weeks ago.

It's a whole picture thing. You cannot make comparisons because "it's a used market as well".

Maybe he bought it from someone who got it from a car auction on the cheap, and is in turn selling it for a profit.

 

[Night_Trekker]

The Les is just a trolling pos. Look at his damn blog(sly smirk on pic included), he is a professional troll. The fact of the matter is used game sales, especially the way GS does it, hurts devs financially which in turn can have a future effect on the quality of games. It's business there is no need to overthink it. But this Les kept bringing up all the consumer BS...cause he knows Jaffe will not publically say "sometimes the consumer needs to suffer cause we need to make money to stay in business". It's stupid...if Les doesn't want consumers to be hurt in anyway than he should just beg Jaffe to give his next game away for free.

Don't like how many people buy used? Stop whining. Rein in your dev costs and lower the price if you want more sales.

GameStop's MO of selling used games at $5 less than the price of a new copy is pretty vile, but it's perfectly legal and it should be. In an industry that's doing all it can to slowly kill itself with perpetually rising development costs and bigger games, I have no sympathy for the developers who angrily demand that I pay whatever price they see fit and give up the option to make back some of that money by selling the game when I'm done (even though I personally never re-sell games).

Stop crying. Evolve or die.

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

Can't we just have... both?

yeah sure, but my line of argument was more for the indie developer that could NEVER survive the Gamestop monopoly of used sales let alone the Publisher requirements before getting into brick-built stores, just as they can barely survive PC piracy. Its a model that keeps them alive, and in these tough economic times even the big players are feeling the pinch with their big releases being undercut by the "I can buy it in a week for half price used" crowd.

"Les" seems willfully ignorant of that side of things with developers like Jonathon Blow, World of Goo devs and many others that would be completely fucked if everyone took his standpoint.

 

[grap3fruitman]

There's no way in hell that will happen.

Yes, there is absolutely no way that prices would get more competitive. Look at the XBLM for the proof, Perfect Dark Zero for $20? With horribly restricting DRM, no physical game, no manual, no case, nothing! How is that competitive with $5?

And who does XLBM have to compete with? What other digital means can I buy 360 games through? No competition = no motivation to lower prices.

I personally don't like Gamestop and choose not to sell my games and always try to buy new but that's a personal choice and who are these guys that think they can force their wills over everyone else? Fuck that.

batman arkham asylum released at $40 for a short window. it was a glimpse of the future.

Yeah, maybe if prices of new games weren't so ridiculously high then less people would buy used? Has the games industry ever thought about that? The games industry is turning into the evil music industry.

 

[Gestahl]

I've never heard of this Les guy before and I really feel he's trying to start an argument just to argue. I hate people like that. I'm actually surprised people like Jaffe took their time to reply to him.

And I don't purchase used games because I'm trying to support the developer but because used games at GameStop are almost universally in such bad condition be it the game or case, I just go new now. That's how it is with most places. Because of them, I don't buy used at other stores or the Internet unless it's an older title that isn't being sold new anymore.



Well, to be honest, every time I see you're name I think of that thread. :lol

I don't get this shit, is there some part of the twitter fest that wasn't posted? Jaffe basically tells him to go fuck himself almost immediately and suddenly this Les is some kind of instigator even though he wasn't even the only one responding.

 

[Gravijah]

yeah sure, but my line of argument was more for the indie developer that could NEVER survive the Gamestop monopoly of used sales let alone the Publisher requirements before getting into brick-built stores, just as they can barely survive PC piracy. Its a model that keeps them alive, and in these tough economic times even the big players are feeling the pinch with their big releases being undercut by the "I can buy it in a week for half price used" crowd.

It just seems like instead of expanding the market, various entities are trying to find ways to shrink it in their favor.

 

[Raist]

Funny, I would have just looked at your avatar.

Care to explain?

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

I don't get this shit, is there some part of the twitter fest that wasn't posted? Jaffe basically tells him to go fuck himself almost immediately and suddenly this Les is some kind of instigator even though he wasn't even the only one responding.

Oh come on now, the tone was evident from the "Good thing I traded in your God of War game, ha ha ha!!" tweet. Jaffe doesn't suffer fools gladly, and the dude even physically resembles a cave troll, so no surprise he got the "fuck off, bye" treatment.

 

[Kintaco]

Of course that matters. A private seller (which is the most common way to buy a used car) bought a car, and sold it for less than what he had to pay. He didn't make any profit out of it. Unlike stores who sell you used games. As for dealerships, they don't have the same model, in the same condition, standing right by the used one. And the new model wasn't likely out a couple of weeks ago.

It's a whole picture thing. You cannot make comparisons because "it's a used market as well".

No what you do have is the used car up in the front with the low price in bright colors luring you into the dealership in the first place, while the new car is out back.

 

[Tonza]

Atleast for me I would buy conciderably less games if it wasn't for the ability sell/trade-in games. Ofcourse this is assuming that the prices don't drop substantially.

Jaffe has to remember that his games too have been bought new by trading in other games. And that those buyers wouldn't have necessarily bought his game without the possibility.

So I don't think it's that clear cut that used games sales only hurt new games sales.

 

[jedimike]

Of course that matters. A private seller (which is the most common way to buy a used car) bought a car, and sold it for less than what he had to pay. He didn't make any profit out of it. Unlike stores who sell you used games. As for dealerships, they don't have the same model, in the same condition, standing right by the used one. And the new model wasn't likely out a couple of weeks ago.

It's a whole picture thing. You cannot make comparisons because "it's a used market as well".

Your counter-argument makes no sense... it doesn't matter if profit is involved or not. There are plenty of instances where a person sells something they purchased for more than they purchased it for but don't have to pay the manufacturer of the product.

You can argue that Gamestop's practices are slimy... more liking to the stereotypical used car salesman, but they are 100% legit and developers and publishers don't have a leg to stand on if they think they can get a oiece of the used sales market. It's not theirs to have... that market belongs to the consumer. If the consumer wants to let gamestop rip them in the ass for their used game, that's the consumer's right to do so. The consumer has many other options... eBay, garage sales, trade with buddies, etc.

Jaffe is wrong. He doesn't get to tap into that market. He can threaten, whine, cry... do whatever, but it's not in his rights to get a piece of that pie.

 

[Gully State]

I don't know why Jaffe would be so upset about used game sales when he proclaims with such fervor that DD will be the end of used game sales.

 

[SamBishop]

Right now, from my point of view DD sucks, sure I bought my good share of DD, but going from my experience (Xbox live) it sucks, overpriced DLC that could be perfectly on the DVD, overpriced games, half of the games on "games on demand" can be found way cheaper on retail, etc...

If the industry wnats to go this direction, they better change that milking the consumer actitude, DLC can be an awesome way to add more value to the game but they decided to use DLC to make up for their awful management this gen...

Here's the problem, and I believe this is what Jaffe was trying to say.

The reason why digital downloads are so pricey is two fold:

1) The prices have to be set at a comparable level to what's at retail for new products or they run the risk of pissing off brick and mortar stores that won't stock the games.

2) Publishers/Developers are in desperate need of making up profits for individual sales to the consumer that they feel the need to price things at a premium to make increased profits.

It's more 1 than 2, and this is where a company like GameStop has devs/pubs over a barrel. GameStop now makes more money off of second-hand sales than they do new games. They've literally built their business around the idea of taking in a game sold from anywhere and pricing it, at times, just a few dollars cheaper than a new game. In some cases, they're making well over 50% profit off of a game that they never had to order, never had to stock on their shelves and never needed to account for before it hit shelves.

On top of that GameStop as a retailer has some extremely bogus practices regarding how they stock new games; they'll take in any trades you want, of course, but when it comes to stocking new games, they'll often buy based on pre-order numbers and no more, so it forces publishers to provide first-run incentives to consumers to plunk down cash for a game earlier, which in turn gives GameStop a "well, we know this exact number of people will likely come in to pick up the game, so we can sell directly do them" scenario.

They're essentially controlling all aspects of a game's sale before, during and after the process and making profits all along the way, then have the audacity to cry foul when publishers just want to sell directly to the consumer. It's not a matter of a game exchanging hands from one person who no longer wants it to someone who does, it's scalping by way of a middle man. If you trade in a game and get $10 credit and they in turn mark it up to $50 and then offer it to customers who come in for a new game for $10 less, everyone except GameStop is losing out -- especially you who already paid full price for the game (you or someone at some point).

That GameStop does so many trade-in "bonuses" where you schlep 10 used games into their store to get a measly $5 trade-in credit or something makes it seem even more deplorable. Now, they've used their position as the biggest pure video games retailer to coax publishers/developers into making additional content that goes to pre-order customers -- which they in turn will make money off of for either held-back content that would have been on disc or extra time/money/effort on the dev/QA side to make sure all this content works right. Bear in mind that if you buy one of those slightly cheaper used games, you won't get the pre-order bonus, but you'll certainly be paying the same people for it. GameStop gets people both ways, and of course it's just business, but it's shady business, and Jaffe's comments about them not being able to cry foul when devs/pubs decide they want to sell directly to the consumer make absolute sense.

It's precisely why I refuse to give GameStop any money. I hate how they've controlled the whole retail chain and are now making more money off the backs of second-hand sales than they do new. They've systematically engineered the consumer to think they're getting something when they trade in games that may not have even come from GameStop, which in actuality the company is happily making money hand over fist for a game that was probably picked up at a Best Buy or something somewhere. If it was picked up in their store first, they already got money off the pre-orders, spent just enough to buy copies they know would sell new, and then make all their other profits off copies that came from elsewhere.

It's deplorable, and I can only hope that some developer or publisher will buck the trend and start going digital for half price or something to give consumers who don't want the overhead from the box, manual, case, disc, licensing and shipping fees being passed on to them. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon for fear they'll be pushed off shelves as a revenge tactic.

Also, while I can't ever see publishers or developers getting a cut of rentals, I do wonder if the old process of charging well over a hundred dollars for a VHS movie that includes the rental license in it is applied to games (or DVD/Blu-rays for that matter). Somehow I doubt it.

 

[shintoki]

No reason anyone here should buy used games anyway since Best Buy matches Gamestop Used prices on New games. (unless you don't have a BB near you)

Except with Gamestop, I get to use an edge card + whatever sale they have. Sometimes it's buy2 get 1, other times it's get 25% off all games from X system.

I also use Goozex, I can normally rent games then for a few weeks for about 3$. I had Red Faction for about 2 months. And total was 80cents to get, and 2.09 to ship back. I recently plunged on the 120 credits for 60$, so that 80 cents is now down to 50cents.:lol

 

[spwolf]

But they don't make any money off the sale.. Jaffe is bitching about not making money off the actual used sale.

Also, dealers are very rarely owned by the car maker... and the car maker doesn't make all that much money off the sale of parts to the dealers either because most of those are coming from 3rd party suppliers.

and publishers still sell DLC so they can make money off of used games the same way a dealer continues to profit off of a used car sale.

Maybe instead of bitching about not getting a slice of the initial sale Jaffe should come up with a way to make more money off of the people that buy games used and/or incent people not to sell their copy in the first place.

oh, dont invent the wheel, dealers buy parts from car manufacturers to repair vehicles, from where almost all of their profits come from. I partially own car dealership , its car dealer 101 regardless of how many people go to independents. Does not matter though as cars and games can not be used in same sentence in any way, its completly different business.


Jaffe is just saying that GS behaving like they do, they will bring it to the point where publishers will work around them instead of with them. Thats true too and will happen sooner than later. There is nothing illegal in any of their actions... But I wonder how many people will buy retail when you have DD release at $40 instead of $60.

 

[CultureClearance]

Right now, from my point of view DD sucks, sure I bought my good share of DD, but going from my experience (Xbox live) it sucks, overpriced DLC that could be perfectly on the DVD, overpriced games, half of the games on "games on demand" can be found way cheaper on retail, etc...

If the industry wnats to go this direction, they better change that milking the consumer actitude, DLC can be an awesome way to add more value to the game but they decided to use DLC to make up for their awful management this gen...

If we made money off of actually making the game, we wouldn't need to milk it. Get it?
Consumers made this gen what it is, not devs. We respond to your actions. Releasing free dlc like back in the day doesn't work anymore, because after the first two weeks of sales, the sales drop exponentially. And no, releasing free dlc doesn't boost it much at all thanks to used games soaking up people on the fence that would have been persuaded by something like new dlc. So, we'd rather have 5 bucks from the guy that bought our game because of new dlc than nothing at all.

At this rate, gaming will go the way of music one day. It will be beaten to an inch of its life and it will squirm and squirm until it becomes a joke both financially and more importantly in terms of quality. I hope you guys like the britney spears and justin timberlakes of gaming, cause that's whats going to be left sooner or later.

the industry is doing ok for now. But it's not doing well and it's not looking good for the future unless things change. games will cost more to make. games will have to be bigger and better in terms overall quality in order for people to buy said games, but things like the used game market and pirating are getting worse. more and more marketing is needed in order for people to buy the game and not wait till its in "used game" mode. It's a sandwiching effect.

We got 3 options - Digital downloads, China and/or India, or bust/make games that end with z and follow fad trends (an already over-saturated market). Yes, china and india will open up for more pirating and more used game exploitation, but there are so many people there that the "small" new game market boost would actually be able to hold us up on its own. 1% of china is A LOT of people. THEN we wouldn't have to be concerned about what the used game market does.

 

[Gravijah]

But I wonder how many people will buy retail when you have DD release at $40 instead of $60.

Call me when this happens on consoles.

 

[Mutagenic]

Of course that matters. A private seller (which is the most common way to buy a used car) bought a car, and sold it for less than what he had to pay. He didn't make any profit out of it. Unlike stores who sell you used games. As for dealerships, they don't have the same model, in the same condition, standing right by the used one. And the new model wasn't likely out a couple of weeks ago.

It's a whole picture thing. You cannot make comparisons because "it's a used market as well".

Ok, so now you're throwing in specific variables. A used car seller should only sell the car if he/she sees no profit on their venture. You have no idea what model of Honda I bought or what the previous owner bought the car for. Maybe it's a rare classic. Maybe they bought it at auction price and are turning a huge profit. What you're assuming is that nobody (or, specifically, private sellers) makes profit on used car sales and that makes it ok. Now tell me again why Honda shouldn't get a kickback on that sale but Sony/EA/Activision should.

 

[Tellaerin]

Oh come on now, the tone was evident from the "Good thing I traded in your God of War game, ha ha ha!!" tweet. Jaffe doesn't suffer fools gladly, and the dude even physically resembles a cave troll, so no surprise he got the "fuck off, bye" treatment.

Except that Jaffe was the one who came off looking like a fool in this particular exchange.

I like Jaffe. I like his games. But I think he's completely off-base when it comes to his feelings on the used game market. I also think it's kind of sickening that we've got so many sycophants here who would be happy to give up their rights as consumers 'for the good of the industry'.

 

[Madman]

Don't like how many people buy used? Stop whining...Evolve or die.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea of devs fully using DD is evolving, no?

 

[lupinko]

batman arkham asylum released at $40 for a short window. it was a glimpse of the future.

No, that was a Walmart fuckup in Canada that Best Buy/Futureshop and Ebgamestop were forced to price match and that I took advantage of.

 

[SecretBonusPoint]

Except that Jaffe was the one who came off looking like a fool in this particular exchange.

I like Jaffe. I like his games. But I think he's completely off-base when it comes to his feelings on the used game market. I also think it's kind of sickening that we've got so many sycophants here who would be happy to give up their rights as consumers 'for the good of the industry'.

Except you don't understand Jaffe's stance. He's not saying you as a consumer shouldn't be allowed to resell stuff on (despite his angry retorts), he's saying he wants a cut from the outlet making profit from his goods. Which is perfectly understandable when you look at GameStop's profits which are directly related to undercutting shipments of dev's new games. So devs are experiencing smaller initial shipments without reprints with GameStop aggressively marketing the "buy it used next week, trade in your own stuff!" and the dev completely left out in the cold. What other stance should he be taking?

 

[Son of Godzilla]

No, that was a Walmart fuckup in Canada that Best Buy/Futureshop and Ebgamestop were forced to price match and that I took advantage of.

:lol You took advantage of by buying multiple copies of their product.

 

[dogmaan]

This is an issue of control and competition

Publishers are crying foul, because they don't want to compete, they want the full $30 -$35 per game until it is made platinum a year or so later, pure stubbornness, and unwillingness to compete

publishers don't understand that if they steadily lowered the price after launch that they would reduce the value of used sales and make up the loss in price by selling volume

Publishers need to compete against used sales, instead of whining when people choose to buy used because they can't afford full price games, or afford the risk of buying a dud full price game

 

[Davidion]

Sure, use Goozex, the difference is that the money that is being spent at GameStop trading and buying afterwards could be spent on a new game.

Anyway, I hear you Pepsiman & Gravijah, and they don't do it to me either, but I have seen them doing it to other people. Even worse is that many employees will actually tell you that it is true, and if Im not mistaken, they even have to meet a used game sales quota.


Davidion, the fact that they are a business running under a capitalist system doesn't excuse their practices.

That's ridiculous; by that logic game devs and pubs should be protesting accessory makers to lower their prices because those dollars can be put towards games. Bullshit, the basis of this complaint is rooted in a manufacturer/producer bitching about the fact that others are making money off of a secondary market and they've not figured out a good reason to capitalize on it. Except instead of working out better marketing approaches and retail models, we get limp-wristed bitching that'll result in nothing but.

And for all of these "threats" of DD, it's the height of retardation. Anyone who knows about the profit margins of DD knows there's a huge potential for said margin to eclipse the margin made at a retail store. The reason why B&M retail is still needed is that they offers POS and on-the-ground marketing and reaches the mass consumer base, many of which have not and will not shop on the internet, nevermind via DD channels alone. If devs and pubs had the opportunity to realistically shift their entire sales base to DD at a much higher profit margin, you think they're not going to cut B&M retail regardless of how "nice" retail has been to them? Bullshit. Retail is a necessity for now and for the near future until a realistic DD market for console emerges, and if the B&M retail business model becomes obsolete, being compassionate to devs and pubs won't get them shit.

Care to explain?

What reason does the average game player have to hang on to a game like drake's fortune or any other big blockbuster games with relatively low replay value without an active online component, after they're done with it? Are they going to sit there and admire the polygons? Look at the untucked shirts?

Most of the time, people like playing games because it's finger twaddling fun, no matter how board members from a place like neogaf would like to elevate them to the realm of high art. And as opposed to the overly hyped up bullshit you get from around here, the ones that are most susceptible to this is the super big blockbuster games that live off of day one hype. All the polished graphics and polygons in the world ain't gonna make people want to play a game over again just because it looks so purdy. Of course, shovel-ware is susceptible to this as well, but no one's really losing sleep over of of their sales problems here.

People buy games for the experience; that's why games like CoD: MW, Mario Kart, wii sports and Halo sells; all of them not only have a primary experience for consumers but also holds replay value whether it be through online, coop, group/party gaming mechanics, etc.. Many in this industry are hell bent on slapping over-the top production values (and costs) over the aforementioned finger twiddle enjoyment, and is surprised when people don't give enough of a shit to keep their games? Yeah, big shock.

 

[Azih]

Haven't read the whole thread but the cars to games analogy is ridiculously bad.

 

[Zzoram]

This is an issue of control and competition

Publishers are crying foul, because they don't want to compete, they want the full $30 -$35 per game until it is made platinum a year or so later, pure stubbornness, and unwillingness to compete

publishers don't understand that if they steadily lowered the price after launch that they would reduce the value of used sales and make up the loss in price by selling volume

Publishers need to compete against used sales, instead of whining when people choose to buy used because they can't afford full price games, or afford the risk of buying a dud full price game

Ya basically. Ubisoft is doing this particularly well. They sell most games at US$60 for the first 3 months, then drop to US$40. That cuts into the used market, but gets the extra money from the people hyped up that need to have it right away.

DVD and Blu-ray movies already work by this model. When a DVD first hits stores, it's $20+, but within a few months it's down to $15.

 

[davidjaffe]

Here's a video blog I did with my response...it's all out of sync as it has been since I got my new mac...dunno why...anyway, so that's my take on the whole thing.

Take care ya'll!

David

 

[Azih]

whoops, seems to be fine now.

 

[jedimike]

Except you don't understand Jaffe's stance. He's not saying you as a consumer shouldn't be allowed to resell stuff on (despite his angry retorts), he's saying he wants a cut from the outlet making profit from his goods. Which is perfectly understandable when you look at GameStop's profits which are directly related to undercutting shipments of dev's new games. So devs are experiencing smaller initial shipments without reprints with GameStop aggressively marketing the "buy it used next week, trade in your own stuff!" and the dev completely left out in the cold. What other stance should he be taking?

...and I want a toilet seat made of solid gold. Of course he wants money from them, but tough shit. Because Gamestop is successful at what they do, doesn't mean they have to do some kind of profit sharing.

If developers and retailers aren't happy with Gamestop, then they should stop sending them product to sell. But don't expect to change Gamestop's model.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

What reason does the average game player have to hang on to a game like drake's fortune or any other big blockbuster games with relatively low replay value without an active online component, after they're done with it? Are they going to sit there and admire the polygons? Look at the untucked shirts?

Most of the time, people like playing games because it's finger twaddling fun, no matter how board members from a place like neogaf would like to elevate them to the realm of high art. And as opposed to the overly hyped up bullshit you get from around here, the ones that are most susceptible to this is the super big blockbuster games that live off of day one hype. All the polished graphics and polygons in the world ain't gonna make people want to play a game over again just because it looks so purdy.

And here I thought you were mocking him for being unable to comprehend why other's don't see the value in ridiculously priced games because of his avatar.

 

[PotatoeMasher]

he's saying he wants a cut from the outlet making profit from his goods. Which is perfectly understandable when you look at GameStop's profits which are directly related to undercutting shipments of dev's new games. What other stance should he be taking?

And reality says that that is not a right of his.

This is all give and take. Publishers have set the wholesale prices so high across the board that it's a huge risk to order tons of new games when many of these are shit and won't sell through. Retail does what it has to do to make a profit and live to sell more copies of said shitty games in the future. Retail isn't a leech--it's the primary means of distribution and promotion of the products.

A greedy response to retail making a profit isn't helping anyone.

I hardly buy any games on console/pc that aren't on sale, as I think the prices are outrageous. Meanwhile, I've spent hundreds of dollars on iPhone apps and games in the past year or so. Why? Because the prices are digestible. $50+ is a huge investment, not an impulse. If the used market keeps people in the market of buying major releases, I don't think the publishers and developers should be complaining.

 

[vireland]

Can anyone else explain how the use/new car analogy isn't an accurate one? Seems a fair one to me.

A used car has wear and tear on it and will continue degrading over time, regardless of maintenance (which will just make it happen slower). However, unless it's severely abused, a used game will play the same as a new game. There is no degradation of the experience because it is used. Unlike new/used cars, the game consumption experience is IDENTICAL for new and used. Of course, if it's scratched or cracked, that's a different story, but you're covered there, too.

Personally, I'm kind of in the reverse position. I prefer physical, and because the RPG games we do have special packaging and presentation, the hardcore fans that buy them rarely sell them or buy used. But, the market is what it is, and the market will do what it needs to do to survive. Part of this backlash against Gamestop is due to the way they bend over publishers with copious BS fees for their marketing plans that end up advertising the used games Gamestop pushes by understocking the new game. And that is something legitimate to be upset about. We're talking hundreds of thousands to millions per publisher that "participates".

 

[dogmaan]

Haven't read the whole thread but the cars to games analogy is ridiculously bad.

are you talking about used cars compared to games sales?

because if so then it is an entirely relevant analogy

Used cars - The original manufacturer gets no money

Used furniture - The original manufacturer gets no money

Used Fighter jets - The original manufacturer/Country gets no money

Used Music - The original Publisher gets no money

Used DVD's - The original Publisher gets no money

Used Homes - The original Builders gets no money

Do you see a pattern?

what makes games and their publishers so special as to receive money on used sales

I hate GAME and Gamestop as much as the next man, But I will defend them till the death on this issue

Publishers stop whining and compete, for fucks sake, Its called capitalism

 

[Azih]

And reality says that that is not a right of his.

That's a given, but reality also says that publishers can do whatever it takes to cut out the middle man in this situation. Which is the point.

 

[NeoUltima]

edit: I should say my main issue is simply with the way GS handles the used sales. Undercutting new games by a couple bucks.

Don't like how many people buy used? Stop whining. Rein in your dev costs and lower the price if you want more sales.

GameStop's MO of selling used games at $5 less than the price of a new copy is pretty vile, but it's perfectly legal and it should be. In an industry that's doing all it can to slowly kill itself with perpetually rising development costs and bigger games, I have no sympathy for the developers who angrily demand that I pay whatever price they see fit and give up the option to make back some of that money by selling the game when I'm done (even though I personally never re-sell games).

Stop crying. Evolve or die.

Stating opinion on something = crying :lol? I love childish remarks like that.

Nobody is talking about making used game sales illegal, we're talking about giving pubs a cut(particularly in cases like GS where they push used hard). Which is nothing that will affect the consumer much anyway, so you shouldn't have a problem. GS has no room to raise their used game prices(sure they could give less trade-in value, but anyone who sells games to GS already is a dumbass). Since the PM on used games is so high, the consumer will likely not be effected by used sale royalties. Money will simply be diverted from the retailer to the publisher/devs. In fact, you should support that as it will impede the progress of mass digital distribution, which is inevitable someday.

Evolve or die.

Exactly.

 

[Esperado]

Pretty much the Les guy was just being a big dick. It's obvious he's read a forum topic or two on the subject and ended up formulated some kind of aggregate opinion which he takes as fact. Which isn't so bad in itself, but the way that he's unwavering with it and how he acts like a total asshat is. It kind of makes me think of when you're a child and someone says something to refute something you said, and you just cover your ears and shout, "I can't hear you!" I wouldn't want to waste my time with that manbaby either.

 

[Ardorx]

Here's a video blog I did with my response...it's all out of sync as it has been since I got my new mac...dunno why...anyway, so that's my take on the whole thing.

Take care ya'll!

David

How do you feel about game rentals?

 

[Azih]

are you talking about used cars compared to games sales?

because if so then it is an entirely relevant analogy

No. Look at what vireland said. Buying a used car is much more of a crapshoot in terms of quality than a new car. It's got mileage on it, degradation, less support and warranty coverage, wear and tear and damage. Games. Don't.

 

[CoG]

Captain Spaulding doesn't like Jaffe? Twisted Metal had fuckin' clowns. Dave thinks their fucking funnay!