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DF: Chernobylite Ray Tracing Analysis: Gorgeous on PC, but what about PS5?

rodrigolfp

Member
I think I get what you are saying there.

Let's define full RT lighting: That means each of the following are using hardware RT
- Direct lighting : shadows, reflections and refractions
- Indirect lighting: GI + AO

Each one of these features can be implemented piece-meal. A full RT lighting solution would be using all of them at once. Most games will only pick parts of these to implement saving on bandwidth.

What is the difference here between "Lumen" and "Ray traced"?
 

01011001

Member
And why looks different between the two if everything is just "ray tracing"?

well every dev has its own way to optimise performance and little tricks to their de-noising etc.

Lumen is just that, Epic's own RT suite basically. and so far I'm not impressed with it to be honest, it seems to be very performance focused, or at least it was when they first showed the software version.

and that software version of it is what it also separates it a bit as it is seemingly designed to work without RT hardware and still look relatively decent, although with some significant drawbacks
 
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VFXVeteran

Banned
Yes, yes you can. Engines are modified all the time.

Skill and budget play a massive role. As does lower extraction layers, hence no stutter.
Dude, I know about engines and modifying them. You are proposing that a typical developer can modify low level code in Unreal engine in order to make internal optimizations for consoles and I'm telling you that has never happened nor will happen. Bandwidth is bandwidth. You aren't going to see a company modify UE so much that it runs with all graphics features set to their highest values (i.e. a PC on Ultra for example) and run on consoles thereby being more proficient than the development team over at Epic.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned

What is the difference here between "Lumen" and "Ray traced"?
What I can see there is that Lumen is letting the environment sky illumination come into the room and that's wrong. When he switches to Lumen, everything suddently gets a blueish tone to it. The room shouldn't be getting light from the sky as it's being blocked by the enclosure.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dude, I know about engines and modifying them. You are proposing that a typical developer can modify low level code in Unreal engine in order to make internal optimizations for consoles and I'm telling you that has never happened nor will happen. Bandwidth is bandwidth. You aren't going to see a company modify UE so much that it runs with all graphics features set to their highest values (i.e. a PC on Ultra for example) and run on consoles thereby being more proficient than the development team over at Epic.
My fuck, you're obtuse and like to make up arguments in your head.

I never PROPOSED ANYTHING. I said developers have modified Unreal engines and always will to suit their needs. Budgets and skills make some devs and their solutions stand above the others.

Have developers modified Unreal Engines to suit their needs? Yes.

Have some done a better job than others at it? Yes.


What is even the argument?
 
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VFXVeteran

Banned
My fuck, you're obtuse and like to make up arguments in your head.

I never PROPOSED ANYTHING. I said developers have modified Unreal engines and always will to suit their needs. Budgets and skills make some devs and their solutions stand above the others.

Have developers modified Unreal Engines to suit their needs? Yes.

Have some done a better job than others at it? Yes.


What is even the argument?

The argument is this BS right here that I responded to:

"consoles are capable of much more than this game , this is a low budget indie developer"

That basically says, these guys don't know how to optimize the consoles using UE RT and if it was another developer, they would have been able to run at higher settings (i.e. using the entire RT pipeline just like the PC is doing).

He implied all of that in his one sentence and it's a ridiculous statement. Optimization can only go but so far. He claims that consoles are capable of so much more and yet he's never seen anything to support that statement. Nearly every game runs with reconstruction techniques no matter RT or pure rasterization thereby proving that no matter what - bandwidth is the limit for these consoles.
 

assurdum

Banned
Dude, I know about engines and modifying them. You are proposing that a typical developer can modify low level code in Unreal engine in order to make internal optimizations for consoles and I'm telling you that has never happened nor will happen. Bandwidth is bandwidth. You aren't going to see a company modify UE so much that it runs with all graphics features set to their highest values (i.e. a PC on Ultra for example) and run on consoles thereby being more proficient than the development team over at Epic.
Uh. Sony Bend studio heavily modified UE4. And they are not the only. You repeat every single time to be an expert but it's not the first time you spread out a personal opinion as is it an objective undeniable truth.
 
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MikeM

Member
The argument is this BS right here that I responded to:

"consoles are capable of much more than this game , this is a low budget indie developer"

That basically says, these guys don't know how to optimize the consoles using UE RT and if it was another developer, they would have been able to run at higher settings (i.e. using the entire RT pipeline just like the PC is doing).

He implied all of that in his one sentence and it's a ridiculous statement. Optimization can only go but so far. He claims that consoles are capable of so much more and yet he's never seen anything to support that statement. Nearly every game runs with reconstruction techniques no matter RT or pure rasterization thereby proving that no matter what - bandwidth is the limit for these consoles.
Reconstruction is the future and not a bad thing. And is used on both PCs and consoles.
 

Md Ray

Member
Here We Go Reaction GIF by MOODMAN
 
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MikeM

Member
It's an option on PC but my statement isn't false. Reconstruction is there because of lack of bandwidth - both on the PC and console side.
I’m just adding in that PCs have limitations too which are helped with their own forms of reconstruction. Its not just a console issue.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
Uh. Sony Bend studio heavily modified UE4. And they are not the only. You repeat every single time to be an expert but it's not the first time you spread out a personal opinion as it is an objective undeniable truth.
Whatever about the personal jabs - it's getting old.

You don't know what "heavily modified" means from a programmer's perspective because you didn't see the code. Also, you are implying that Unreal engine is completely unoptimized for consoles with their base console build data structures and you don't know that either because you haven't seen the code. In fact, you can't prove that any game using UE on console is using the maximum amount of graphics features that the developer intended to use by said optimization.

Lastly, Sony Bend studio's Days Gone on console is still not the best they could do with UE because the PC version has features that the console doesn't have. Again, pointing to the lack of bandwidth on the console to implement those features regardless of optimizations.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Dude, I know about engines and modifying them. You are proposing that a typical developer can modify low level code in Unreal engine in order to make internal optimizations for consoles and I'm telling you that has never happened nor will happen.
During UE3 era it was pretty much standard practice for games to replace the rendering pipeline almost wholesale - so not only it happened, it was far more elaborate than just low-level optimizations, and definitely pretty typical. UE2 had a lot of weird hybrids developed too. Certainly - a contributing factor here was that UE really wasn't a good multiplatform engine until well into 10s.
I'm less familiar with what the stats look like for 4.x - but to say it 'never' happened is a bit of a tall order(even if we limit just to that version of Engine), given the patterns of game-industry as a whole. Probably not typical anymore - but pretty certainly not a complete no-no either.
 
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I think I get what you are saying there.

Let's define full RT lighting: That means each of the following are using hardware RT
- Direct lighting : shadows, reflections and refractions
- Indirect lighting: GI + AO

Each one of these features can be implemented piece-meal. A full RT lighting solution would be using all of them at once. Most games will only pick parts of these to implement saving on bandwidth.
What does it have to do with Hardware RT? What matters is the end result. So you are telling me full RT Lighting has never being done in the industry before the advent of hardware RT GPUs? Ridiculous.
 
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VFXVeteran

Banned
During UE3 era it was pretty much standard practice for games to replace the rendering pipeline almost wholesale - so not only it happened, it was far more elaborate than just low-level optimizations, and definitely pretty typical. UE2 had a lot of weird hybrids developed too.
I'm less familiar with what the stats look like for 4.x - but to say it 'never' happened is a bit of a tall order(even if we limit just to that version of Engine), given the patterns of game-industry as a whole. Probably not typical anymore - but pretty certainly not a complete no-no either.
Perhaps when you look at the past and using hyperbole. But my point still stands that console gamers need to stop pointing the finger at developers using these graphics engines as incompotent just because they believe the console can implement graphics features that are inherently expensive. The attitude that their precious box should be able to do insurmountable things and ignoring reality is frustrating to say the least.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
What does it have to do with Hardware RT? What matters is the end result. So you are telling me full RT Lighting has never being done in the industry before the advent of hardware RT GPUs? Ridiculous.
I don't understand your last sentence here. Can you elaborate? Are you saying full RT lighting has been done before there was hardware RT silicon?
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Perhaps when you look at the past and using hyperbole. But my point still stands that console gamers need to stop pointing the finger at developers using these graphics engines as incompotent just because they believe the console can implement graphics features that are inherently expensive. The attitude that their precious box should be able to do insurmountable things and ignoring reality is frustrating to say the least.
Get over yourself.

You're just as bad as the rest of us PC/console gamers.
Turning Natalie Portman GIF by foxhorror
 
I don't understand your last sentence here. Can you elaborate? Are you saying full RT lighting has been done before there was hardware RT silicon?
Well you just made your own definition about what's being RT or not. That's really convenient. It must be really easy to win any argument with those methods. Seems I got the answer I wanted anyways: according to your definition (that you probably made on the spot) full RT lighting can only be done by using 100% RT silicon.

That's PC master race thinking applied to hardware RT.
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
Alex doesn't have an Xbox, ya clown.
I am sorry. A tech journalist whose job definition is comparing consoles should own all consoles. It's shocking, moronic and straight up incompetent for DF to not give him an xsx. It's been a year and a half and they cant secure one or use their resources at microsoft to get one for free?

Even if he doesnt have one, he ought to reach out to his team members so he can have the data ready. Not owning a console should not be an excuse for a major publication like DF.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I am sorry. A tech journalist whose job definition is comparing consoles should own all consoles. It's shocking, moronic and straight up incompetent for DF to not give him an xsx. It's been a year and a half and they cant secure one or use their resources at microsoft to get one for free?

Even if he doesnt have one, he ought to reach out to his team members so he can have the data ready. Not owning a console should not be an excuse for a major publication like DF.

You're very late, apparently he does have one.
 

rodrigolfp

Member
I am sorry. A tech journalist whose job definition is comparing consoles should own all consoles. It's shocking, moronic and straight up incompetent for DF to not give him an xsx. It's been a year and a half and they cant secure one or use their resources at microsoft to get one for free?

Even if he doesnt have one, he ought to reach out to his team members so he can have the data ready. Not owning a console should not be an excuse for a major publication like DF.
Wasn't he hired for pc stuff?
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
Well you just made your own definition about what's being RT or not. That's really convenient. It must be really easy to win any argument with those methods. Seems I got the answer I wanted anyways: according to your definition (that you probably made on the spot) full RT lighting can only be done by using 100% RT silicon.
I wasn't giving you the definition based off of hardware RT silicon. I was actually telling you that based on the industry terms. Hardware has nothing to do with the definition of it. All shader materials have two parts to the equation. Direct + Indirect + some constant. I was just defining everything in those categories.

That's PC master race thinking applied to hardware RT.
It's not MR dude. It is what it is.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
I am sorry. A tech journalist whose job definition is comparing consoles should own all consoles. It's shocking, moronic and straight up incompetent for DF to not give him an xsx. It's been a year and a half and they cant secure one or use their resources at microsoft to get one for free?

Even if he doesnt have one, he ought to reach out to his team members so he can have the data ready. Not owning a console should not be an excuse for a major publication like DF.
Hes got one.
Dont listen to whoever said he doesnt have one.

He just chose the PS5 cuz its settings are the same as XSX and the mindshare of PS5 will get more clicks.
No need to go over the same shit again just to appease "WHY DOES HE MAKE THE PS5 LOOK BAD" crowd.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Perhaps when you look at the past and using hyperbole.
I wasn't being hyperbolic. UE2-3 rendering was by far the weakest part of the engine, and it frequently needed large changes to ship competitive products. Or ship any products at all - if we look at PS2 generation.
And while the kind kind of smaller-scale low-level optimizations talked about in this thread are certainly not in every-developer's wheelhouse (regardless of the engine) when you build games, particularly as independent developer, you will take whatever competitive edge possible, and if that means getting hands dirty with the 3rd party tech, the cost is well worth it.


The attitude that their precious box should be able to do insurmountable things and ignoring reality is frustrating to say the least.
That's totally fair/true - but it cuts both ways. The attitude that 'whatever Epic does is the only way to build things' is not really any better (and this also isn't a new thing - it again permeates all the way back 20 years in this industry). Consoles certainly aren't able to compete with PC in raw power, and that is reflected in what can/can't run. But that also means they aren't necessarily best suited to run things built primarily around PC extensibility either.
 

Tarnished

Neo Member
It's rational to compare a $3000-4000 PC to a $500 console. It's funny how 1660 PC's aren't the PC standard when compared to consoles, when they fucking are! But hey, PC gaming is only true for 1-2% of PC gamers.

Also what's the matter with Xbox Series X? Why it's not the "standard" of console RT? Seen plenty of so-called xbox influencers talking about how RT is overrated and doesn't matter?

Seeing what's possible on PC vs console isn't a bad thing unless it upsets you that your platform of choice isn't on top. Digital Foundry doesn't care about fanboys feelings, it's purely a tech channel, they don't do these reviews to crown a winner but to show what's possible on each platform.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
Just started playing the game today and it has the best RT reflections of any game out right now. They did a damn good job actually sampling at high quality the surrounding objects to project back to the glass surfaces. And this is an Indie developer!
 
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