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After 24 years of 3D Sonic, do you think there is a definitive 3D Sonic game? Or have they always been junk?

fart town usa

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Fundamentally I just don't know if it's possible to have such fast movement in a 3D space other than making it "on rails" ala a racing game.
That's one of the reasons I actually enjoy Lost World, and I don't even enjoy Sonic games. Has 3 speed options, walk is default, hold a button to sprint, and the spin dash can be spammed if you want to go fast.

The game has it's issues but it's actually pretty solid. I think the general consensus is that the game sucks cause it's "slow."
 
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SF Kosmo

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Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are still great games that were like nothing else when they came out. They're not super polished and never were but that doesn't make them bad.

After that it goes downhill quick. I know Sonic Heroes has its apologists but that game has some of the most boring repetitive level design ever. And after that it's Shadow, and yeah...

Colors and Generations are kind of bright spots but they're shallow. More polished than Adventure but just all linear flashy roller coasters, which is never what good Sonic games really were, they always had some exploration to them.

It's more than time to hand the reigns to someone new. That worked out great for Sonic Mania and it could work in 3D as well if they find the right partners.
 

SF Kosmo

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That's one of the reasons I actually enjoy Lost World, and I don't even enjoy Sonic games. Has 3 speed options, walk is default, hold a button to sprint, and the spin dash can be spammed if you want to go fast.

The game has it's issues but it's actually pretty solid. I think the general consensus is that the game sucks cause it's "slow."
Lost World had a lot of potential. Of all the post adventure games that's the one I think was most onto something. Problem is the level design was pretty bad at parts.
 

fart town usa

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Lost World had a lot of potential. Of all the post adventure games that's the one I think was most onto something. Problem is the level design was pretty bad at parts.
Totally, some levels feature areas that are just a complete mess. Controls can be really spotty too with the lock on attacks and whatnot. Controls in general a bit of a mess too at times.
 

deriks

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Adventure 1 is awesome if you cut the bugs
Adventure 2 has great Sonic stages, the rest is kinda boring
Heroes could be really great if the stages weren't so long

We need a Adventure 3 with only Sonic-like levels
 
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MrMephistoX

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The Dreamcast 3D one for me always sticks out (where you run from the dolphin in the first level)
I have no idea how it holds up but that game was a fabulous tech showcase at the time. I kind of remember it all falling apart after that first level though but I still played the hell out of it.
 

MAtgS

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Not hating on Sonic, but what is the appeal?
Mario and Donkey Kong are about mastering jumping and exploring the levels.
What is Sonic is about? Speed? Mastering jumping too? I can't get it.
Replaying levels, finding alternate routes, finding the best route through a level, memorizing the level layout and anticipating what comes next, improving on your time/score.

Sonic is speedrunning incarnate.
 

SF Kosmo

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Adventure 1 is awesome if you cut the bugs
Adventure 2 has great Sonic stages, the rest is kinda boring
Heroes could be really great if the stages weren't so long

We need a Adventure 3 with only Sonic-like levels
The problem with Adventure 2's non-Sonic levels wasn't so much that they were bad, it's that they were integrated into the main game, rather than giving each character their own quest like the first. People didn't mind it as much when it when they weren't trying to get through them to get back to the Sonic levels.
 
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the localization is incompetently racist (Black Aliens when just saying Aliens would work just fine),

come on man, the leader is called Black Doom, the army is called the Black Arms, and the base is called the Black Coment, there's things to complain about in Shadow, but this isn't it, it's like your looking for something to complain about.

The 3D model of Sonic in SA1 seemed much closer to a 3D interpretation of his normal self, especially the original DC version.
Not that DC boxart though.

Granted I though it made Sonic more appealing to the general audience.

Sonic Adventure. All downhill from there.

Though future installments did certain things better, such as reducing the sidekick character gameplay or graphics, Sonic Adventure is the only one that had the soul of Sonic in it, which is the ability to play a full campaign of continuous levels as Sonic himself with the right control and physics.

I am of the belief that Sonic Adventure is so unfocused because it was to showcase random different gameplay styles as a sort of demonstration of the type of gameplay you can find on the Dreamcast instead of a real Sonic game. Just Sonic was part of their demo presentation. Then they decided to change their placeholders for Sonic characters and named it Sonic Adventure. Because even Sonic doesn't seem to work with some of the level designs, but the other characters? It's clear the characters gameplay don't really work with any of the stages. Big barely interacts wit the stages himself you just jankly un around looking for a pond.

I played through Generations once and never looked back. Even though the idea of this game seems like everything I want in my life, fact is the physics totally sucked, which is not optional in a Sonic game. Modern Sonic felt more like a rocket than a character that had feet, making fine movements or platforming adjustments.

If you played Unleashed and generations he's like a cross between a boat and a race car or a plane and a race car, complete with skidding sound effect, though Generations also has that.

One thing about Unleashed though is at least it's mostly 3D and there's some level design taking into account the boost so it's not just straight lines on racetracks. But they never improved on that and dropped all the interactivity and mechanical challenges.
 
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Unleashed was 85% werewolf crap
Not quite, but the levels are so poor, controls so bad, the frame rate so bad, that players generally have trouble getting through those levels in a short time and they end up taking quite a bit of it.

Totally, some levels feature areas that are just a complete mess. Controls can be really spotty too with the lock on attacks and whatnot. Controls in general a bit of a mess too at times.
While still not too good, i think the quality of Lost World would have shot up much higher if they never had wisps to fill in gaps and just had improved the levels instead.

The problem with Adventure 2's non-Sonic levels wasn't so much that they were bad,
The later Knuckles stages and most of the Rouge stages were pretty bad imo.

But I guess you didn't let it hit you and you moved.

Man look at the time....
 

BlackTron

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Not that DC boxart though.

Granted I though it made Sonic more appealing to the general audience.

I am of the belief that Sonic Adventure is so unfocused because it was to showcase random different gameplay styles as a sort of demonstration of the type of gameplay you can find on the Dreamcast instead of a real Sonic game. Just Sonic was part of their demo presentation. Then they decided to change their placeholders for Sonic characters and named it Sonic Adventure. Because even Sonic doesn't seem to work with some of the level designs, but the other characters? It's clear the characters gameplay don't really work with any of the stages. Big barely interacts wit the stages himself you just jankly un around looking for a pond.

If you played Unleashed and generations he's like a cross between a boat and a race car or a plane and a race car, complete with skidding sound effect, though Generations also has that.

One thing about Unleashed though is at least it's mostly 3D and there's some level design taking into account the boost so it's not just straight lines on racetracks. But they never improved on that and dropped all the interactivity and mechanical challenges.

I agree the boxart was totally different, however in a way it was so hyper-stylized that it was clear it was just over the top art, much like all the art for the game...I remember Sonic with a boom box and headphones, lol. Sega was always trying to be "hip" and "edgy" so it felt in tune to me. It took a different form nearing 2000 than it did it 1990.

I agree that SA1 was a Sonic game with a bunch of alternate gameplay styles tacked on. He obviously had the longest game at 10 levels, and the other characters almost always just did something in a portion of the level, or they tacked on some area to a level you don't see as Sonic. I think Amy only had 3?

It was overambitious. They wanted the interconnected storylines of all the characters, with voiced cutscenes, and distinct gameplay styles for each, starting from what began as a simply Genesis Sonic game in 3D. If they had fully focused all of that energy towards simply making a Sonic game focused on the levels, DC's launch title would probaby have gone down as one of the most beloved and timeless launch games of all time.

For a bit of perspective, imagine if Nintendo had released Mario 64 with less levels, a story with lots of cringy VA, more bugs, and lots of half baked extra characters with other gameplay styles . Doubtless, we would have been impressed at the time, but all the cruft tacked on would compromise its purity as a good ass Mario game and weigh down its reputation. It's too bad they didn't release the Sonic version of Mario 64 -where Sonic simply starts running, and when you clear the act, you're in Act 2 after 10 seconds of loading.

I played Unleashed back on 360, the day levels were pretty good but I found its control muddy like Heroes and later Gens, so like those titles it was pretty much one and done for me (whereas I'm still playing Sonic 2 lol).
 
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mhirano

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Replaying levels, finding alternate routes, finding the best route through a level, memorizing the level layout and anticipating what comes next, improving on your time/score.

Sonic is speedrunning incarnate.
Thanks for you answer
 
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BlackTron

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It's more than time to hand the reigns to someone new. That worked out great for Sonic Mania and it could work in 3D as well if they find the right partners.

If I recall correctly, it was confirmed that Sonic Mania was a one-time thing and they would not be collaborating again. Personally, I read into this that Sonic Team is not really eager to be outclassed by anyone. As long as their games to sell well enough and make a profit, it's unlikely that their overlords will force them to do something so drastic.

Personally, I don't think that SEGA management really understand what they are sitting on. They think Sonic is doing okay, but really he could be a multi-million seller per game IP, they just don't know it.
 
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SF Kosmo

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If I recall correctly, it was confirmed that Sonic Mania was a one-time thing and they would not be collaborating again. Personally, I read into this that Sonic Team is not really eager to be outclassed by anyone. As long as their games to sell well enough and make a profit, it's unlikely that their overlords will force them to do something so drastic.

Personally, I don't think that SEGA management really understand what they are sitting on. They think Sonic is doing okay, but really he could be a multi-million seller per game IP, they just don't know it.
Sonic Mania was not Sega's idea and they had to be talked into it with a pitch demo. It cam about in a very roundabout way. That said it was a hugely successful product, both commercially and in terms of re-energizing the brand. Someone from the original Mania team told me Evening Star is working on Mania 2.

But Sega has shown a willingness to go outside and try new things as they did with Sonic Boom. They were not the right partner of course, but they're not unwilling to try that.
 
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BlackTron

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Sonic Mania was not Sega's idea and they had to be talked into it with a pitch demo. It cam about in a very roundabout way. That said it was a hugely successful product, both commercially and in terms of re-energizing the brand. Someone from the original Mania team told me Evening Star is working on Mania 2.

But Sega has shown a willingness to go outside and try new things as they did with Sonic Boom. They were not the right partner of course, but they're not unwilling to try that.


Wait who is working on Mania 2???
 

SF Kosmo

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Wait who is working on Mania 2???
Evening Star, a new studio made out of most of the devs of the first game. They're also co-developing Freedom Planet 2.

This is not public, it's something that was told to me by someone who worked on the first game but is NOT working on the second game, so take that for what it's worth but I don't think he's making shit up.
 

Kazekage1981

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The next Sonic game needs to be CEL SHADED with the original anime design of Sonic CD with awesome music, and I want to be able to build my own levels so others can play it. Not the current sonic with that shitty creepy grin face with evil green eyes



 
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I agree the boxart was totally different, however in a way it was so hyper-stylized that it was clear it was just over the top art, much like all the art for the game..
I mean it basically is similar to how Sonic would be designed and behave in Sonic Adventure 2 arguably. Same when they added Shadow to the box art for that game.

I agree that SA1 was a Sonic game with a bunch of alternate gameplay styles tacked on. He obviously had the longest game at 10 levels, and the other characters almost always just did something in a portion of the level, or they tacked on some area to a level you don't see as Sonic. I think Amy only had 3?

It was overambitious. They wanted the interconnected storylines of all the characters, with voiced cutscenes, and distinct gameplay styles for each, starting from what began as a simply Genesis Sonic game in 3D. If they had fully focused all of that energy towards simply making a Sonic game focused on the levels, DC's launch title would probaby have gone down as one of the most beloved and timeless launch games of all time.

I think Amy had 4 buy yeah it was iirc the shortest and really sort of pointless because it wasn't so much an alternative gameplay style as the other, just really being chased around stages with weird mechanics that clearly weren't meant for the game and you rarely use her abilities because of it.

But Sonic Adventure was still a headlning game for the Dreamcast when it came out even with the flaws (and the Sonic stages weren't exactly clean there were some levels where Sonic's 3D mechanics and movements just didn't match, and bugs were present) but the questioning of Sonic Adventures quality among critics was apparent a short time later after the GameCube re-release, same with Sonic Adventure 2, which has a re-release in I think one year or less?

For a bit of perspective, imagine if Nintendo had released Mario 64 with less levels, a story with lots of cringy VA, more bugs, and lots of half baked extra characters with other gameplay styles.
Well some of that sounds like Sunshine lol.

But the thing is i don't think that Sonic Adventure was again, really intended to be a Sonic game, I think it was some sort of demonstration game showing off gameplay and the Dreamcast graphics and then they slapped Sonic characters over it. Based on some of the stages in Sonic story being jank, I think Some stages along with Sonics mechanics were separate and they just added it to the compilation so they can have a finished flagship game at launch. Because there are several stages that are clearly not designed for any of the characters and result in irritating to near broken gameplay as a result.

Sonic when you run in an open space like the beginning of the first level is moves quickly and sturdy with the stick, you can perform all the moves on the spot with complete control, and even though the roll is glitched, especially in that level, the stage is designed with Sonics movements in mind even from the point of running from the whale.

Then you go to most other stages and you're falling off things, bumping into walls, the camera is actively trying to murder you and so on.

Rise of Lyric was so profoundly bad that we're now living in Mandela effect timeline where it never got made.

It has it's share of bugs and technically issues. Performance was lousy, but it wasn't worse than 2006 in those areas, however it was empty and vastly more boring and tedious to get through (while 2006 was more irritating to get through) and the story, or lack of it, just added to the lazily written, empty world with nothing to do.

Once the initial backlash left people stopped talking about it because frankly, there's really nothing to talk about. Maybe something about a bounce pad.
 
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AzafuseYugi

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But the thing is i don't think that Sonic Adventure was again, really intended to be a Sonic game, I think it was some sort of demonstration game showing off gameplay and the Dreamcast graphics and then they slapped Sonic characters over it. Based on some of the stages in Sonic story being jank, I think Some stages along with Sonics mechanics were separate and they just added it to the compilation so they can have a finished flagship game at launch.
while that's not true it's also not too far, the game was originally an RPG spinoff for the SEGA Saturn, leftovers of that early prototype appeared in the form of the Sonic World minigame from Sonic Jam, but due to the cancellation of X-Treme and the SGEA Saturn failing, forcing SEGA to pull the plug early, they were forced to make a mainline Sonic game. and if anything the game still has some Sonic-ness to it, mainly the plot calling back to the Genesis games, the overall Sonic gameplay sitll having many of the fundamentals the genesis games had.

Sonic Team also was aiming to do a Tech Demo for the Dreamcast while also having a Sonic game, according to some SEGA staff of the time, stuff like the fishing stages or the chao garden were added to break up the pace for new players, but besides those two things, everyone still plays like Sonic, but with different controls and mission objectives. unlike in SA2 where the gameplay did change for the Mech Shooting stages.
 
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