Well she looks at him right as she covers her mouth.
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Doctor Who: Time Of The Doctor |OT| 11's hour is over now... The clock is striking 12
- Thread starter infiniteloop
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Well she looks at him right as she covers her mouth.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
That was Moffats choice. If he didnt feel like he could handle it he should have (imo he should have) walked away.
We, well not me, but obviously all of you that seem to be doing it, will have been talking shit of any other one being in the same position (someone NEEDED to be in that position this year becuase of the 50th anniversary), because quite frankly, what he did was a difficult task to do by anyone, Moffat or not.
I understand some people not liking what he is doing (others yes, like me, opinions!) but sometimes the Moffat hate is getting out of hand.
Smith's Doctor was an old man in a young man's body. Like, everything he did, the way he spoke, walked, dressed, indicated it.
It's one of the reasons why I loved Smith more than Tennant.
Me and my wife were always commenting on how Smith played the Doctor like an old codger who doesn't actually realize he has the appearance of a young man. It made it that much more fun, for me. The bowtie fixation was another one of those things that drove home the point that the Doctor really is just...old, despite his physical appearance. As a fan of the older series, it was a nice touch to pick up on a little bit of Hartnell and Pertwee and Baker in some of Matt's delivery sometimes.
Jest Chillin
Member
I think when considering Mickey and Martha's marriage you have to consider the inherent differences in interracial relationships in American vs British TV. British TV isn't anywhere near as afraid to show interracial couples. Mickey was with Rose initially, Donna's first fiance was Black as well, and Shakespeare has quite a thing for Martha not just for her beauty because she's intelligent and resourceful.
The primary reason why Martha ends up with Mickey is because she goes through what all companions go through once they leave The Doctor. Their previous lives become boring to the point of naseum. You see it with every New Who companion except Donna and that's only because Donna's memory was completely wiped. Even before she meets Mickey, Martha isn't satisfied with a normal life. She did get engaged to another Doctor but also became a member of UNIT. It makes sense that she wouldn't be happy with that fiance as, for all intents and purposes, they can't identify with each other. Torchwood S1 and S2 addresses this issue as well (spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen Torchwood and may want to at a later date)
Rose finds her life exceptionally boring when left in the alternate Earth dimension and is presumably at least partially satisfied only when she's left there with Meta-Crisis 10. Amy gets to be with Rory but the two of them don't enjoy life without The Doctor until they literally have no choice but to live without him. Even Lady Christina has issues with returning to her life of being a world class burglar simply for the thrill of it after just one experience with The Doctor. Sarah Jane expressed multiple times just how much of a hole she had in her life since leaving The Doctor's side and it takes her decades to fill that hole with family and friends but even then, they join in on her adventures.
So when you consider all of these things, Martha's really only left with two choices for a romantic relationship. She can either drag someone else into her life's adventures, thus dooming (or blessing depending on perspective) them to becoming the same risk-taking thrill-seeker that she is, or she can turn to someone who is already like that with Mickey. At first glance it seems all too convenient but when when you consider the relationships and how they unfold throughout the Whoniverse (at least the New incarnation of it as I haven't watched any of Classic, really), it makes sense or at the very least is consistent.
Maybe I'm just writing up the obvious though and I'm missing the point of other posters a bit (I tend to do that on occasion).
The primary reason why Martha ends up with Mickey is because she goes through what all companions go through once they leave The Doctor. Their previous lives become boring to the point of naseum. You see it with every New Who companion except Donna and that's only because Donna's memory was completely wiped. Even before she meets Mickey, Martha isn't satisfied with a normal life. She did get engaged to another Doctor but also became a member of UNIT. It makes sense that she wouldn't be happy with that fiance as, for all intents and purposes, they can't identify with each other. Torchwood S1 and S2 addresses this issue as well (spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen Torchwood and may want to at a later date)
with Gwen's character having major issues with her Husband and being unable to connect with him due to the gravity of what she does on a daily basis and being unable to even talk with him about it. Captain Jack only regularly hooks up with Ianto and in S4 we learned Jack's only other serious relationship was with Angelo Colasanto, whom he specifically said he intended on making his own companion on his adventures.
Rose finds her life exceptionally boring when left in the alternate Earth dimension and is presumably at least partially satisfied only when she's left there with Meta-Crisis 10. Amy gets to be with Rory but the two of them don't enjoy life without The Doctor until they literally have no choice but to live without him. Even Lady Christina has issues with returning to her life of being a world class burglar simply for the thrill of it after just one experience with The Doctor. Sarah Jane expressed multiple times just how much of a hole she had in her life since leaving The Doctor's side and it takes her decades to fill that hole with family and friends but even then, they join in on her adventures.
So when you consider all of these things, Martha's really only left with two choices for a romantic relationship. She can either drag someone else into her life's adventures, thus dooming (or blessing depending on perspective) them to becoming the same risk-taking thrill-seeker that she is, or she can turn to someone who is already like that with Mickey. At first glance it seems all too convenient but when when you consider the relationships and how they unfold throughout the Whoniverse (at least the New incarnation of it as I haven't watched any of Classic, really), it makes sense or at the very least is consistent.
Maybe I'm just writing up the obvious though and I'm missing the point of other posters a bit (I tend to do that on occasion).
One of the things I love about British television compared to the TV we get here in America is the interracial couples, specifically black men and white women.
It's such a taboo over here, that it's refreshing to see it treated like any other normal fricking relationship. I'm black/samoan and my wife is white, and man, you should see the looks we get sometimes here. It's absurd.
Me and my wife joked about Martha ending up with Mickey because they were black, but if it was American television, I maybe would have raised an eyebrow. Look at Arrow. Oliver's mother was married to a black guy, then they wrote him off the show, and the only other black character is Mr. Diggles, who's cover is Oliver's driver. :/
At least Mickey and Martha were written like people, and not caricatures or stereotypes.
It's such a taboo over here, that it's refreshing to see it treated like any other normal fricking relationship. I'm black/samoan and my wife is white, and man, you should see the looks we get sometimes here. It's absurd.
Me and my wife joked about Martha ending up with Mickey because they were black, but if it was American television, I maybe would have raised an eyebrow. Look at Arrow. Oliver's mother was married to a black guy, then they wrote him off the show, and the only other black character is Mr. Diggles, who's cover is Oliver's driver. :/
At least Mickey and Martha were written like people, and not caricatures or stereotypes.
paradox121
Member
I totally get where you're coming from Jest but there's no real reason Mickey and Martha who, up to that point, had barely any interaction with one another, would end up married. They could have met, shared experiences, become friends, but why do they necessarily need to be married?
It's one of my big problems with The End of Time, and a lot RTD resolutions in general, is that he ties too neat a bow on everything. Rose is forced to live in another universe never to return.......but she comes back and gets her own Doctor. Donna gets her memory wiped and can never remember the Doctor.........until she does, to no real determent, and ends up winning the lottery. They're unnecessary, saccharine endings that undermine the characters' journeys. As with Martha and Mickey. You can't escape the feeling RTD was sat there thinking of a way to show a happy resolution for both characters and was like 'well, why don't they get married?'. It's just completely hollow. You can resolve it yourself, and I'm sure there are multitudes of stories out there describing how they got together, but that shouldn't be the case.
Also it highlights Martha's bigger problem as a character in that her entire story arc is dependent on men. She travels with the Doctor because out of nowhere she's in love with him. She stops travelling with the Doctor because he doesn't feel the same. She gets with the doctor guy because she hung around him in the missing year. She apparently dumps him and marries Mickey because *shrug*. If we're talking about poorly written female characters RTD's era wasn't without them.
It's one of my big problems with The End of Time, and a lot RTD resolutions in general, is that he ties too neat a bow on everything. Rose is forced to live in another universe never to return.......but she comes back and gets her own Doctor. Donna gets her memory wiped and can never remember the Doctor.........until she does, to no real determent, and ends up winning the lottery. They're unnecessary, saccharine endings that undermine the characters' journeys. As with Martha and Mickey. You can't escape the feeling RTD was sat there thinking of a way to show a happy resolution for both characters and was like 'well, why don't they get married?'. It's just completely hollow. You can resolve it yourself, and I'm sure there are multitudes of stories out there describing how they got together, but that shouldn't be the case.
Also it highlights Martha's bigger problem as a character in that her entire story arc is dependent on men. She travels with the Doctor because out of nowhere she's in love with him. She stops travelling with the Doctor because he doesn't feel the same. She gets with the doctor guy because she hung around him in the missing year. She apparently dumps him and marries Mickey because *shrug*. If we're talking about poorly written female characters RTD's era wasn't without them.
Jest Chillin
Member
I can definitely see your point when considering how neatly everything turns out, but I'd chalk that up to RTD playing more towards the younger audiences. You only have to look towards Torchwood to see that he is fully capable of endings that aren't happy and neat. It makes sense as well considering that it's fairly well known that his Doctor Who run focused on family while Torchwood was geared towards adults.
As for writing poor female characters... that seems to be something most male writers struggle with in all mediums. Donna grows into a great character but I don't know if, perhaps, Tate may have had a hand in that in some way? I don't know how much input she could have had (if any) but it does stand out that she's the most unique of all the female companions. Though it's not like Mickey and Rory were written strongly at all either so it could be just that the writers are entirely too used to making companions utterly dependent on The Doctor.
As for writing poor female characters... that seems to be something most male writers struggle with in all mediums. Donna grows into a great character but I don't know if, perhaps, Tate may have had a hand in that in some way? I don't know how much input she could have had (if any) but it does stand out that she's the most unique of all the female companions. Though it's not like Mickey and Rory were written strongly at all either so it could be just that the writers are entirely too used to making companions utterly dependent on The Doctor.
APZonerunner
Member
I can definitely see your point when considering how neatly everything turns out, but I'd chalk that up to RTD playing more towards the younger audiences. You only have to look towards Torchwood to see that he is fully capable of endings that aren't happy and neat. It makes sense as well considering that it's fairly well known that his Doctor Who run focused on family while Torchwood was geared towards adults.
As for writing poor female characters... that seems to be something most male writers struggle with in all mediums. Donna grows into a great character but I don't know if, perhaps, Tate may have had a hand in that in some way? I don't know how much input she could have had (if any) but it does stand out that she's the most unique of all the female companions. Though it's not like Mickey and Rory were written strongly at all either so it could be just that the writers are entirely too used to making companions utterly dependent on The Doctor.
For what it's worth, RTD was pretty strict on that stuff. He was the kind of guy where if David didn't like a word in the script and wanted to change it, the director/producer on set had to ring RTD and ask if it was ok. So probably not much. That said, she gives the single best performance any companion has ever given in Turn Left. There's also a lot of Tate in Donna, I guess - like how she doesn't give a damn about sci-fi (she's never even seen Star Wars - not one! Or Star Trek!) - in a sense that made her a better companion, I think. Half of Donna's wonder at the things she was seeing was also Catherine's, too. Moffat's a lot more free-wheeling with that stuff, and Matt would frequently turn in zany takes and changed words and such.
I think Rose is pretty unique, especially compared to what came before, just the thing is she then became the template that the others since followed, and that retroactively makes her look less interesting or original.
Fair enough, I already was willing to acknowledge the possibility it's what she intends to say in the same post. I don't really think any companion fancying the Doctor is really that big of a surprise. They all do in some fashion or another. By itself, that doesn't make Martha and Clara any more alike than any other companion comparison really. And when isn't the Doctor rebounding from something he did to someone anyway?Well she looks at him right as she covers her mouth.
ScreenSplitter
Member
And what a great moment that was. Why do you think those two were paired together? Eh? Pretty fucking obvious and pretty damn insensitive.
Oh for fucks sake really
Jest Chillin
Member
For what it's worth, RTD was pretty strict on that stuff. He was the kind of guy where if David didn't like a word in the script and wanted to change it, the director/producer on set had to ring RTD and ask if it was ok. So probably not much. That said, she gives the single best performance any companion has ever given in Turn Left. There's also a lot of Tate in Donna, I guess - like how she doesn't give a damn about sci-fi (she's never even seen Star Wars - not one! Or Star Trek!) - in a sense that made her a better companion, I think. Half of Donna's wonder at the things she was seeing was also Catherine's, too. Moffat's a lot more free-wheeling with that stuff, and Matt would frequently turn in zany takes and changed words and such.
I think Rose is pretty unique, especially compared to what came before, just the thing is she then became the template that the others since followed, and that retroactively makes her look less interesting or original.
I never really thought about Tate's performance in and of itself having that much of an effect on the character but when you put it that way then I can see how her own experience, or lack of in this case, would naturally change the way she reads the scenes and thus gives the performance. I'll have to rewatch her episodes with that in mind now.
And to this day, Rose is my favorite of the companions. I don't think she's a particularly strong character but I also don't feel that she needed to be or that she should be. She strikes me as being pretty normal and I like that. Even her falling for The Doctor makes more sense given that she's spent more time (on-screen at the very least) with The Doctor than any other New Who companion. When I talk about "poorly written" I mean it from the frame of discussion that normally surrounds female characters when those types of discussions are had. Things like whether or not they pass the Bechdel test.
Wasn't he sent back to around the time the Paternoster gang existed?
New Torchwood crew if jack ever gets his wristband back from the collection.
equippedwithtowel
Member
Moffat seems to retroactively ruin his best ideas, River Song, The Weeping Angels and The Silence being the most notable.
The silence being a genetically engineered caste of priests for the papal mainframe and Kovarian being an rogue member of the papal mainframe is just pure over-exposition and weak rationalization after the fact respectively. Don't get me started on "the image of an angel", it contradicts Blink in half a dozen ways.
Also who the fuck were the whispermen? Still waiting on that one.
The silence being a genetically engineered caste of priests for the papal mainframe and Kovarian being an rogue member of the papal mainframe is just pure over-exposition and weak rationalization after the fact respectively. Don't get me started on "the image of an angel", it contradicts Blink in half a dozen ways.
Also who the fuck were the whispermen? Still waiting on that one.
Moffat seems to retroactively ruin his best ideas, River Song, The Weeping Angels and The Silence being the most notable.
The silence being a genetically engineered caste of priests for the papal mainframe and Kovarian being an rogue member of the papal mainframe is just pure over-exposition and weak rationalization after the fact respectively. Don't get me started on "the image of an angel", it contradicts Blink in half a dozen ways.
Also who the fuck were the whispermen? Still waiting on that one.
The whispermen were nothing. They were projections of the Great intelligence.
I thought Kovarian being a rogue member of the church was a sensible enough explanation, actually. It never made sense to me that the Silence were trying to accomplish something for the greater good when she was so sadistic and took such scenery-chewing pleasure in inflicting harm on people; it didn't really line up with their mission statement.
infiniteloop
Member
I'm a bit annoyed at Moffat shoehorning in the cracks in the universe as the Doctor's greatest fear.
Wasn't it more the time lords coming back through the crack?
Wasn't it more the time lords coming back through the crack?
He didn't know the Time Lords were alive during the God Complex. I thought it was pretty apparent that his greatest fear is himself when he said "Who else could it be?". The cracks being his fear don't even make sense with that question.
equippedwithtowel
Member
Sensible enough I suppose. It just rubbed me the wrong way they didn't even get a passing mention beforehand. Even during AGMGTW.I thought Kovarian being a rogue member of the church was a sensible enough explanation, actually. It never made sense to me that the Silence were trying to accomplish something for the greater good when she was so sadistic and took such scenery-chewing pleasure in inflicting harm on people; it didn't really line up with their mission statement.
Racism? Heavens no. Why would you think that? Some of the Doctor's best friends are Sontarians.
No, I was referring to the fact that both Martha and Ricky are goddamn useless, so together they may have made a partially interesting human being,
Racism. Pish and posh.
*Looks over at "Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS" and laughs nervously.
Wasn't it more the time lords coming back through the crack?
He didn't know the Time Lords were behind the cracks until now, though.
Sensible enough I suppose. It just rubbed me the wrong way they didn't even get a passing mention beforehand. Even during AGMGTW.
Who didn't get a passing mention? If you're talking about the Papal Mainframe, they actually were referenced in that ep, though I doubt Moffat was thinking that far ahead. :lol
equippedwithtowel
Member
Who didn't get a passing mention? If you're talking about the Papal Mainframe, they actually were referenced in that ep, though I doubt Moffat was thinking that far ahead. :lol
My bad then. Although in fairness if you're gonna plan a multi-season arc, getting your shit sorted isn't the worst idea.
In my head-canon it's John Hurt. It makes the most sense by far.He didn't know the Time Lords were alive during the God Complex. I thought it was pretty apparent that his greatest fear is himself when he said "Who else could it be?". The cracks being his fear don't even make sense with that question.
Decided to give this show a try about a month ago after all the hype about the 50th anniversary.
Pretty much all I knew going in is that there was a phone booth thing, there's different Doctors and they have companions (and that it was a big deal in the UK when one of these change), and the BBC has aired it for a long time. I was also aware of Karen Gillian from some talk show appearances and Jenna-Louise Coleman (from her voice work in Xenoblade).
I did a bit of research and what I read suggested starting with the 2005 series as that was the show's return to the airways. I don't get BBC America but luckily it seems nearly all of the modern series is on Amazon Prime for "free" at this point.
I'm about halfway through season 3 and really like it thus far. Really great premise for a show and it's not surprising how long it's lasted because of that. I find the episode length perfect, enough time to setup a good plot and execute it without getting boring. The two Christmas specials I've watched seem to drag with the extra 15 minutes of length.
Series 1 does a good job slowly introducing the universe. The first few episodes are fun and entertaining with all the witty banter flying around around. But you can tell the series doesn't really hit its stride until the "Dalek" episode. "Father's Day" and "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances" were highlights for me as well, along with the first half of the "Boom Town" episode with all the banter flying around. I didn't catch the twist coming at the end of the season either, so that was a nice surprise.
I liked David Tennant pretty much immediately as the Doctor (although I did get to immediately watch the clip from "Children in Need" to bridge the gap). That surprised me after reading "you'll never like the new Doctor after a regeneration" somewhere on the Net. I did end up turning closed-captioning on since I had occasional trouble understanding what he is saying 0.5% of the time when he's talking really fast about British stuff (didn't have that issue with Eccleston).
You can tell the series got a good budget bump with Series 2.. it actually seems like it has a higher budget than a 1990s US Kids live-action show at this point. Hearing the middle 8 of the main theme for the first time after the Christmas Special was pretty cool. I thought the stretch of the season from "Tooth and Claw" to the Cyberman 2-parter was incredibly strong. Loved "The Girl in the Fireplace" and was blown away by that episode. Also liked the "Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit" two parter a lot. Liked the season finale as well, even I don't think it lived up to the fan reception outside of the ending.
Series 3 I disliked the Christmas special, but thus far I'm really like Martha Jones as the companion. The "Daleks in Manhattan" episodes weren't as bad as I had heard, even though some of the American accents from the British actors are awful in that one.
Pretty much all I knew going in is that there was a phone booth thing, there's different Doctors and they have companions (and that it was a big deal in the UK when one of these change), and the BBC has aired it for a long time. I was also aware of Karen Gillian from some talk show appearances and Jenna-Louise Coleman (from her voice work in Xenoblade).
I did a bit of research and what I read suggested starting with the 2005 series as that was the show's return to the airways. I don't get BBC America but luckily it seems nearly all of the modern series is on Amazon Prime for "free" at this point.
I'm about halfway through season 3 and really like it thus far. Really great premise for a show and it's not surprising how long it's lasted because of that. I find the episode length perfect, enough time to setup a good plot and execute it without getting boring. The two Christmas specials I've watched seem to drag with the extra 15 minutes of length.
Series 1 does a good job slowly introducing the universe. The first few episodes are fun and entertaining with all the witty banter flying around around. But you can tell the series doesn't really hit its stride until the "Dalek" episode. "Father's Day" and "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances" were highlights for me as well, along with the first half of the "Boom Town" episode with all the banter flying around. I didn't catch the twist coming at the end of the season either, so that was a nice surprise.
I liked David Tennant pretty much immediately as the Doctor (although I did get to immediately watch the clip from "Children in Need" to bridge the gap). That surprised me after reading "you'll never like the new Doctor after a regeneration" somewhere on the Net. I did end up turning closed-captioning on since I had occasional trouble understanding what he is saying 0.5% of the time when he's talking really fast about British stuff (didn't have that issue with Eccleston).
You can tell the series got a good budget bump with Series 2.. it actually seems like it has a higher budget than a 1990s US Kids live-action show at this point. Hearing the middle 8 of the main theme for the first time after the Christmas Special was pretty cool. I thought the stretch of the season from "Tooth and Claw" to the Cyberman 2-parter was incredibly strong. Loved "The Girl in the Fireplace" and was blown away by that episode. Also liked the "Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit" two parter a lot. Liked the season finale as well, even I don't think it lived up to the fan reception outside of the ending.
Series 3 I disliked the Christmas special, but thus far I'm really like Martha Jones as the companion. The "Daleks in Manhattan" episodes weren't as bad as I had heard, even though some of the American accents from the British actors are awful in that one.
APZonerunner
Member
Decided to give this show a try about a month ago after all the hype about the 50th anniversary.
Pretty much all I knew going in is that there was a phone booth thing, there's different Doctors and they have companions (and that it was a big deal in the UK when one of these change), and the BBC has aired it for a long time. I was also aware of Karen Gillian from some talk show appearances and Jenna-Louise Coleman (from her voice work in Xenoblade).
I did a bit of research and what I read suggested starting with the 2005 series as that was the show's return to the airways. I don't get BBC America but luckily it seems nearly all of the modern series is on Amazon Prime for "free" at this point.
I'm about halfway through season 3 and really like it thus far. Really great premise for a show and it's not surprising how long it's lasted because of that. I find the episode length perfect, enough time to setup a good plot and execute it without getting boring. The two Christmas specials I've watched seem to drag with the extra 15 minutes of length.
Series 1 does a good job slowly introducing the universe. The first few episodes are fun and entertaining with all the witty banter flying around around. But you can tell the series doesn't really hit its stride until the "Dalek" episode. "Father's Day" and "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances" were highlights for me as well, along with the first half of the "Boom Town" episode with all the banter flying around. I didn't catch the twist coming at the end of the season either, so that was a nice surprise.
I liked David Tennant pretty much immediately as the Doctor (although I did get to immediately watch the clip from "Children in Need" to bridge the gap). That surprised me after reading "you'll never like the new Doctor after a regeneration" somewhere on the Net. I did end up turning closed-captioning on since I had occasional trouble understanding what he is saying 0.5% of the time when he's talking really fast about British stuff (didn't have that issue with Eccleston).
You can tell the series got a good budget bump with Series 2.. it actually seems like it has a higher budget than a 1990s US Kids live-action show at this point. Hearing the middle 8 of the main theme for the first time after the Christmas Special was pretty cool. I thought the stretch of the season from "Tooth and Claw" to the Cyberman 2-parter was incredibly strong. Loved "The Girl in the Fireplace" and was blown away by that episode. Also liked the "Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit" two parter a lot. Liked the season finale as well, even I don't think it lived up to the fan reception outside of the ending.
Series 3 I disliked the Christmas special, but thus far I'm really like Martha Jones as the companion. The "Daleks in Manhattan" episodes weren't as bad as I had heard, even though some of the American accents from the British actors are awful in that one.
Lovely to hear you're liking it, stick with it. I think a lot of the worst stuff isn't as bad as people like to say, really. Daleks in Manhattan is a really interesting episode thematically for the Daleks, even if the writing is shaky and the supporting cast bad. You've got through the worst episode of the revival, Fear Her - the one with the drawings.
What did you think of Love & Monsters? You're in for a treat, anyway, Series 4 and 5 are both god tier and about equal IMO.
Sensible enough I suppose. It just rubbed me the wrong way they didn't even get a passing mention beforehand. Even during AGMGTW.
However, if they're a splinter group, why would The Papal Mainframe grant the soldiers in AGMGTW a pardon for lowering the hoods of the monks, which they do despite it being a level one heresy? That's the first time we hear of the mainframe, but why would it grant a religious pardon to an extreme splinter group? Also (Extended universe stuff), why would the Papal Mainframe add Jenny & Strax to their most wanted list (in a side-book, but written by Moffat) after the events of AGMGTW if it was a splinter group?
And if the Silence are engineered as confessional priests, how come nobody at the mainframe has eyepatches? Wouldn't everybody there forget what they were there for and freak out? It couldn't even be written down - "even information about these creatures erases itself over time." Arcs are very rarely (read: never) pre-planned in detail in Doctor Who, but in this case it's a bit more obviously duct-taped together than usual.
Jest Chillin
Member
However, if they're a splinter group, why would The Papal Mainframe grant the soldiers in AGMGTW a pardon for lowering the hoods of the monks, which they do despite it being a level one heresy? That's the first time we hear of the mainframe, but why would it grant a religious pardon to an extreme splinter group?
And if the Silence are engineered as confessional priests, how come nobody at the mainframe has eyepatches? Wouldn't everybody there forget what they were there for and freak out? It couldn't even be written down - "even information about these creatures erases itself over time."
Hard to say. Just as everyone at the Mainframe has been mentally trained to see through holograms, would it be far fetched that they would have some aspect that would prevent them from forgetting the Priests? As for the "even information..." aspect, I assumed that was more due to the Silents on Earth controlling everything. Similar, say, to the victors of wars influencing history over time.
equippedwithtowel
Member
It's the genetic alteration that rubs me the wrong way. Given the crazy things alien races are capable of in Who, being specifically created for confessionals is not some necessary leap in the sake of plausibility.
WAR recon zero
Banned
I will always hate Amelia's anti climatic demise...
ScreenSplitter
Member
The Weeping Angels being genetically engineered or created by an evil magic sculptor would be pretty shit. I think what the Silence (race) were or where they came from were one of the few things that absolutely needed no answer.
Future Foundation
Member
Arcs are very rarely (read: never) pre-planned in detail in Doctor Who, but in this case it's a bit more obviously duct-taped together than usual.
Really? I thought - or at least I read - that Russell was heavy into mapping out his arcs.
Old Matt Smith was my favorite part of the episode; but I agree that from his goodbye to Clara as an old guy to his actual regeneration later was absolutely perfect.
It was entirely not what I expected, and it fit so well with Matt Smith's personality that not only he went out with a nuclear explosion, but also went out by just moving off-screen.
It was entirely not what I expected, and it fit so well with Matt Smith's personality that not only he went out with a nuclear explosion, but also went out by just moving off-screen.
Lovely to hear you're liking it, stick with it. I think a lot of the worst stuff isn't as bad as people like to say, really. Daleks in Manhattan is a really interesting episode thematically for the Daleks, even if the writing is shaky and the supporting cast bad. You've got through the worst episode of the revival, Fear Her - the one with the drawings.
Thus far the "bad" episodes plot-wise seem to be saved by some entertaining jokes and dialogue. At the show's worst it reminds me of a very high-quality 80s/90s children's TV show, so it's still enjoyable to watch. "Fear Her" was pretty mediocre compared to some of the other episodes though.
What did you think of Love & Monsters? You're in for a treat, anyway, Series 4 and 5 are both god tier and about equal IMO.
Love & Monsters made me think "meh" at first, then I really liked it once it got going, then the ending 5-8 minutes was a bit of a letdown. I'd probably rate it right in the middle of the Series 2 episodes.
Good to hear that there's a lot more to look forward to.
APZonerunner
Member
Really? I thought - or at least I read - that Russell was heavy into mapping out his arcs.
In fairness, the Master, missing planets and bees and Rose coming back were all mapped out to varying degrees of tightness, but what I meant, I suppose, was that there's never been this degree of weight riding on a long-term plot arc before, and as such all the other ones have been planned more loosely. I think under Moffat the TARDIS explosion (sans who did it, anyway) and the River stuff was mapped out most tightly.
That said, RTD didn't even work out what Bad Wolf was 'til he wrote Boom Town. There's a few great interviews where he talks about people on the production team asking what it was and him pretending to keep it a secret when really he hadn't actually worked it out!
Probably been posted, but I'm agreeing with this quite a much. http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...-em-doctor-who-em-betrayed-matt-smith/282690/
infiniteloop
Member
I don't think there's a single Doctor actor that hasn't been let down by a certain amount of poor scripts in their tenure.
Smith got some shite, but got a better deal than Tennant imo.
Smith got some shite, but got a better deal than Tennant imo.
The Weeping Angels being genetically engineered or created by an evil magic sculptor would be pretty shit. I think what the Silence (race) were or where they came from were one of the few things that absolutely needed no answer.
Aren't the Weeping Angels exiled/punished Time Lords?
Aren't the Weeping Angels exiled/punished Time Lords?
...What?
Yep, don't disagree with any of it.Probably been posted, but I'm agreeing with this quite a much. http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...-em-doctor-who-em-betrayed-matt-smith/282690/
...What?
Didn't Rassilon say that in the End of Time? In regards to his two prisoners, one of whom is apparently supposed to be the Doctor's mother.
Didn't Rassilon say that in the End of Time? In regards to his two prisoners, one of whom is apparently supposed to be the Doctor's mother.
Must've missed that, although they do suspiciously cover their faces in exactly the same way. I wonder if there's something in that.
Team Filler
Member
I believe Rassilon had said their punishment was to stand there "like the weeping angels of old," or something similar.
Didn't Rassilon say that in the End of Time? In regards to his two prisoners, one of whom is apparently supposed to be the Doctor's mother.
Rassilon did indeed mention the Weeping Angels, but not exactly in the context of them being Time Lords.
"They will stand as monuments to their shame, as did the Weeping Angels of old."
There could be a connection, but maybe not quite directly.
I believe Rassilon had said their punishment was to stand there "like the weeping angels of old," or something similar.
I had forgotten about that. Sounds like one of RTD's old "This doesn't actually mean anything... but it possibly could, you know, if we end up deciding that it does." throwaway lines he used to love to use. Like the remark about Jack's nickname being "The Face of Boe." At least I hope to GOD Moffat never picks up on it. That would be worse than the Silents being nothing more than genetically altered priests.
Future Foundation
Member
Probably been posted, but I'm agreeing with this quite a much. http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...-em-doctor-who-em-betrayed-matt-smith/282690/
For the most part, I liked this article - then again, I'm slowly becoming a sucker for The Atlantic. Then it ended up leading me to this and this.
Finally, a complete collection of the regenerations (probably already posted): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18ya3r_doctor-who-regeneration-1963-2013_creation
Moffat's completism ways might spoil some of the mystery around his plots, but man it's so satisfying seeing each regeneration together. Almost got choked up again at Matt Smith's speech. :'(
Moffat's completism ways might spoil some of the mystery around his plots, but man it's so satisfying seeing each regeneration together. Almost got choked up again at Matt Smith's speech. :'(
One more view on RTD vs Moffat, from a much more recently converted fan.
...
When asked by friends, where should I begin with Doctor Who?, I always reply: Series 5, the introduction of Matt Smith as the raggedy doctor. It's the strongest premiere, the most endearing Doctor incarnation to date, and you'll have far fewer bad episodes from that point forward, with some exceptional high points along the way that make for excellent science fiction.
While I watched the show since NuWho started, this is my experience trying to introduce it to others. Never had success hooking people on a non-Moffat RTD episode.
Probably been posted, but I'm agreeing with this quite a much. http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...-em-doctor-who-em-betrayed-matt-smith/282690/
Someone said earlier that people attribute flaws to Moffat that was also present in RTD. I think that's true when the author talks about Moffat's interpretation of the character of the Doctor. That "swagger" was on display throughout NuWho, especially 10.
As for the increasing popularity in the US, While Matt, the production, and the lighting were brilliant, I'll also credit Moffat. Even without discussing the quality of the writing, Moffat's direction in general does mimic the breakout scifi hits in the US. From X-Files to Lost, an abundance of mysteries and extended arc defines modern scifi. While RTD's run was great, the mystery of the word Bad Wolf alone would not get people talking.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Someone said earlier that people attribute flaws to Moffat that was also present in RTD. I think that's true when the author talks about Moffat's interpretation of the character of the Doctor. That "swagger" was on display throughout NuWho, especially 10.
As for the increasing popularity in the US, While Matt, the production, and the lighting were brilliant, I'll also credit Moffat. Even without discussing the quality of the writing, Moffat's direction in general does mimic the breakout scifi hits in the US. From X-Files to Lost, an abundance of mysteries and extended arc defines modern scifi. While RTD's run was great, the mystery of the word Bad Wolf alone would not get people talking.
Personal opinions and all but dear lord I can't wait for this to hopefully end or at least recede a bit. Not just on Who but on sci-fi in general. You know what X-Files episodes I actually go back and re-watch? Almost none of the overarching story episodes.
Finally, a complete collection of the regenerations (probably already posted): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18ya3r_doctor-who-regeneration-1963-2013_creation
Moffat's completism ways might spoil some of the mystery around his plots, but man it's so satisfying seeing each regeneration together. Almost got choked up again at Matt Smith's speech. :'(
After watching Time of the Doctor (would've been a couple of hours after it aired in the UK), I immediately went on YouTube to find a new compilation of all 13 regenerations.
Never thought I'd see the bridge between McGann and Eccleston done, but it has, with something interesting to put in the middle.
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