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Doctor Who: Time Of The Doctor |OT| 11's hour is over now... The clock is striking 12
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paradox121
Member
Same for me. I actually think a lot of that is down to Jenna just seeming more comfortable in the role. And with that, her seeming more comfortable and pally with Matt. Like I was thinking back over S7, and the episodes I enjoy most are the ones where those two spend the most time together (Hide, Rings and Name).
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
He is misogynistic and writes himself into a corner every single season. For as long as I can remember, since "The Girl in the Fireplace" he has been mucking up the show. He writes the Doctor as if he is the Time Lord Victorious who can do whatever he pleases without caring for the consequences. Davies at least had the Doctor make moral and impossible decisions by his own wit, not with the sonic screwdriver, the Tardis, or one of Moffat's set-piece women as deus ex machina.
I know I'm going to absolutely hate myself for asking, but, "misogynistic how?"
he only really does the hollywood stuff to allow him to afford to turn roles down
have to admit, if he doesn't like something he's quite vocal about it, which might worry some casting agents into steering away from him
might really bite him in the arse to the point he'll have to come back to who for the 60th for the pay alone
I think this might be the point Moffat hate reached a hitherto thought impossible zenith.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
See my edit and I'll expand. Moffat treats the central women (he never bothers to call them women) in the show as set-pieces and tropes, nothing with more substance. "The Girl in the Fireplace", "The Girl Who Waited", "The Impossible Girl". Moffat defines these women by their gender. Take Rory for example, he become to be defined as "The Last Centurion", not "The Boy Who Waited". Strike that, most of his characters are just empty generalizations not worth their weight in salt. He just isn't a competent writer, let alone showrunner. But he definitely has a problem when it comes to women.
This is just within his writing, as a person he is just terrible.
This article from 2008 more efficiently articulates what I am trying to convey.
APZonerunner
Member
If I had to pick one at gunpoint I'd pick RTD, but is calling Moffat sexist for saying "Between the marriages, I shagged my way round television studios like a mechanical digger," seems a bit mental. RTD has said similar - worse, in fact - but somehow it's ok to certain people because all his shagging involved two blokes.
That said, some of those quotes in that article are a bit more skin-crawly. Especially the one about Karen. Remember reading that when it was new and shaking my head a bit. He's the first straight producer Doctor Who has had in 14 years! He's making up for lost time. But, really, I don't think he's that bad. He doesn't write brilliant women, though, and that's a shame. I do think his lot has been made worse by coming directly after RTD, as that man wrote - and writes - magnificent women. Amy is going to look bare sat next to Donna or Rose, really. Mainly because he grew up in such a matriarchal environment, based on his musing in The Writers' Tale - Jackie, Rose, etc are all just bits of his mum and his mum's friends because his dad used to spend most of his time either working or in the pub. It was the women, for him, who held things together - a fact he partially attributes his being gay to as well. Even so, Moffat isn't the antichrist. Neither was RTD. Nice pick on that article of a super creepy photo, as well. Top marks.
That said, some of those quotes in that article are a bit more skin-crawly. Especially the one about Karen. Remember reading that when it was new and shaking my head a bit. He's the first straight producer Doctor Who has had in 14 years! He's making up for lost time. But, really, I don't think he's that bad. He doesn't write brilliant women, though, and that's a shame. I do think his lot has been made worse by coming directly after RTD, as that man wrote - and writes - magnificent women. Amy is going to look bare sat next to Donna or Rose, really. Mainly because he grew up in such a matriarchal environment, based on his musing in The Writers' Tale - Jackie, Rose, etc are all just bits of his mum and his mum's friends because his dad used to spend most of his time either working or in the pub. It was the women, for him, who held things together - a fact he partially attributes his being gay to as well. Even so, Moffat isn't the antichrist. Neither was RTD. Nice pick on that article of a super creepy photo, as well. Top marks.
Future Foundation
Member
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Just watched the last episode, I really liked it, was lots of fun. Loved the regeneration part 1 and 2.
Capaldi is going to be great.
Also, im sorry for saying it like this, but fuck fiktion for spoiling and then saying he was not.
Capaldi is going to be great.
Also, im sorry for saying it like this, but fuck fiktion for spoiling and then saying he was not.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I don't like the fairy tale, fantasy nature to Moffat's seasons and I hate how all his big season arc's are shoved in the viewers face and then never wrapped up in a satisfying way.
It's feels very much like LOST in a way. Showrunners trying to show everyone how clever and mysterious they can be and then doing fuck all to tie things up giving everyone the most obvious of conclusions.
When a conclusion isn't obvious he resorts to Deus Ex tropes.
RTD might have telegraphed some conclusions from a mile off but he never setup a false pretense around them and some things actually surprised me. DoctorDonna and Vanity 10 regen, Yana as The Master, Bad Wolf being Rose. Wilf being the one who knocked. The drumming being a time lords heart beat. All of that stuff was great and legitimately "Ahhhh Shit" moments.
It's feels very much like LOST in a way. Showrunners trying to show everyone how clever and mysterious they can be and then doing fuck all to tie things up giving everyone the most obvious of conclusions.
When a conclusion isn't obvious he resorts to Deus Ex tropes.
RTD might have telegraphed some conclusions from a mile off but he never setup a false pretense around them and some things actually surprised me. DoctorDonna and Vanity 10 regen, Yana as The Master, Bad Wolf being Rose. Wilf being the one who knocked. The drumming being a time lords heart beat. All of that stuff was great and legitimately "Ahhhh Shit" moments.
Box of Bunnies
Banned
Whatever you think of them as writers, Rusty's not the one that only managed to put out two series over the last three years.
I also remember stuff like the Master Race, which is maybe the worst cliffhanger in nuWho, and sacrifices the tone of the entire story for a terrible pun.I also remember the Doctor turning into Gollum and then becoming a god through the power of everyone clapping and screaming "I DO believe in fairies!" I also don't understand how you can berate Deus Ex tropes while praising Bad Wolf and DoctorDonna.
Bad Wolf was executed well for what it was, but suddenly the Tardis has a soul that can bond with a person so they go super saiyan and can rewrite spacetime and destroy entire Dalek fleets with a thought? Wouldn't that have made the Time War a lot easier to win?
HammerOfThor
Member
For a second I thought the 11th regenerated into House.
Edit: No new episode until Fall? Such a long wait for a new season.
Edit: No new episode until Fall? Such a long wait for a new season.
The problem is I suspect episode 1, S8 will be very good with Capaldi...but Moff won't be able to stop himself in setting up some grandiose last 'mystery box' mystical season long bobbins that he just simply doesn't have the ability to resolve effectively.
After the Pandorica, the Cracks, The Astronaught 'hes totally not a doppleganger', The Silence, Trenzalore, The Impossible Girl...I just can't get excited by whatever long game he will inevitably choose to implement. The resolutions to all were just...ugh. Three years of good cockteases with shitty payoffs.
After the Pandorica, the Cracks, The Astronaught 'hes totally not a doppleganger', The Silence, Trenzalore, The Impossible Girl...I just can't get excited by whatever long game he will inevitably choose to implement. The resolutions to all were just...ugh. Three years of good cockteases with shitty payoffs.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
RTD wasn't without issue and The Master season final was a tragedy but his time on Who didn't leave me with the same bad taste as Moffat has.
Future Foundation
Member
I've heard/read some people saying August, though. It's a stretch, but fingers crossed!
The Elite
BOSS
Missed that. Good news!
Yeah, I'm very cautious about Series 8 as well. The thing I liked about RTD's time with the show is that you didn't have to be a Dr Who fan/long-time fan to follow what was going on. And it was as much about the companions as it was about the doctor. Even though it's a bit crazy, I still think The Stolen Earth/Journey's End are highpoints of the reboot show for me.
Capaldi will be terrific as the doctor, but....I'd hate to see what Moffat comes up with. I know, just re-do old episodes of the First Doctor's run with Clara taking Sara's spot. He can't mess that, can he?
Susan?
StalkerUKCG
Banned
If we gloss over the fact that somehow trenzalores crack was exempt from closing because of .. reasons and the fact that the daleks know that the doctor is on life 13 despite it the war doctor been super secret. And we also ignore that some how time lords can create big cracks in the sky.
We still have the biggest plot hole.
The Time Lords asked the question via the crack to find out if the world on the other side was their home so they could come home. Clara gives them a "you need to love him" speech and then they decide to give him a new regen cycle but remain on the other side of the crack. It makes no sense. The point of everything, The reason everyone was at christmas wass because the Time Lords were looking to come back. Yet last second they just decide "eh we can wait a season or so".
Some how one time lord managed to stop all the invaders with 3 beams of regen energy but if they time lords came back that would have caused another war?
A war ready galifrey could have popped back into our universe mopped up the remaining bad guys and granted the doctor new regens
We still have the biggest plot hole.
The Time Lords asked the question via the crack to find out if the world on the other side was their home so they could come home. Clara gives them a "you need to love him" speech and then they decide to give him a new regen cycle but remain on the other side of the crack. It makes no sense. The point of everything, The reason everyone was at christmas wass because the Time Lords were looking to come back. Yet last second they just decide "eh we can wait a season or so".
Some how one time lord managed to stop all the invaders with 3 beams of regen energy but if they time lords came back that would have caused another war?
A war ready galifrey could have popped back into our universe mopped up the remaining bad guys and granted the doctor new regens
Time Lords realized nobody wanted them back yet, literally nobody in the universe aside from the Doctor, and wanted to give the Doctor a chance to change the universe to become more welcome to the Time Lords, and he can't very well do that if he's dead. So that's why they finally decided to give him a new regeneration cycle.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Not buying it. They didn't care all that time they are sending a message to try and find home.
CharminUltra
Member
Finally saw the episode today. I didn't like it as much as I liked the 50th, but still liked it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than any RTD finale.
So excited for Capaldi. So, so, SO excited.
EDIT: Also LOVED Matt Smith's last words as a Doctor.
So excited for Capaldi. So, so, SO excited.
EDIT: Also LOVED Matt Smith's last words as a Doctor.
I don't really buy that RTD writes better women than Moffat. People complain about Clara or even Amy for a second having a thing for the Doctor, but RTD is the one who created the Doctor/companion romance for the reboot. He turned Rose completely lovesick for the Doctor, and then after a year of that, spent an entire new year on Martha being completely lovesick for him. More than that, Martha's departure from the show was predicated entirely on her unrequited love -- "Why can't you look at me like that?" and so on.
And even beyond the companions, I don't find very many of RTD's creations to be all that compelling. Jackie? She may be more of a real person and help fills out Rose's background, but is anyone clamoring for Jackie to return or even remember her that well? Mickey? The engineering crew in The Impossible Planet? The cat people in Gridlock? That shit kid in the Sontaran two-parter? David Morissey or Christine Ryan or Kylie Minogue?
I don't know, it's just my opinion and all that, but I think Moffat's characters are more interesting and compelling right off the bat than a good 90% of RTD's. I'll give him Wilf though, who is a big reason why I think The End of Time's four knocks scene is the show's very best.
And even beyond the companions, I don't find very many of RTD's creations to be all that compelling. Jackie? She may be more of a real person and help fills out Rose's background, but is anyone clamoring for Jackie to return or even remember her that well? Mickey? The engineering crew in The Impossible Planet? The cat people in Gridlock? That shit kid in the Sontaran two-parter? David Morissey or Christine Ryan or Kylie Minogue?
I don't know, it's just my opinion and all that, but I think Moffat's characters are more interesting and compelling right off the bat than a good 90% of RTD's. I'll give him Wilf though, who is a big reason why I think The End of Time's four knocks scene is the show's very best.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
David Morissey was fantastic.
Jest Chillin
Member
I don't agree with that either but remember that no one actually communicated with the Gallifreyans to begin with. The entire idea that they wanted to come back to that universe through the crack was The Doctors assumption to begin with. It's a logical one, sure, but seeing as how the voice was the General's and not Rassilon's it stands to reason that they could've just been trying to contact The Doctor. He did, you know, save the entire planet and all that.
/shrug Just sayin'
I disagree, as much as I love Moffat's era a lot of his characters aren't as near as interesting to me.
It was brilliant; it's only a shame he had to be inside a literal plot device.
As in, a device that makes no sense and has no possible purpose aside from doing that one thing.
CharminUltra
Member
Yeah, I could not stand a lot of recurring characters from the RTD era. Moffat era has River Song, I do hate her (yeah she appeared first during RTD, but Moffat created her I think), but she is not nearly as bad as Mickey or Rose's mom or the monumentally awful Master *Pukes*.
Wilf was amazing, though. The only RTD character I truly loved.
There are myriad reasons the Moffat era has disappointed me, and it's hard for me to get past some of them because they feel like direct repudiations of some of the things that most made me a Doctor Who fan in the first place.
I understand a lot of people felt like Series 1-4 overrepresented minorities, but I loved the way they were just a part of the show, typically without much comment. I also enjoyed The Doctor as someone in love with the complexities of the universe and believing in redemption/second chances. Both of those aspects were just kind of shorn off in the new episodes (with some exceptions here and there.) Every couple became white/heterosexual, barring a few basic gags typically involving off-screen characters. The Doctor I felt attached to would not have just been cool with all those people staying in cold storage at the end of "The Christmas Carol," nor would he just casually order a genocide of The Silence with no apparent attempts at negotiation or some other kind of trick like the two-parter of S6.
I know that this is part of the game, that after Moffat there'll probably be somebody who does his or her own stuff that may or may not appeal to me more, but it's still disappointing. (And before anybody accuses me of only being a NuWho fan, I've watched all the extant episodes pre-revival too. Not that that lends me more authority, but I need to show my nerdcred too.)
I understand a lot of people felt like Series 1-4 overrepresented minorities, but I loved the way they were just a part of the show, typically without much comment. I also enjoyed The Doctor as someone in love with the complexities of the universe and believing in redemption/second chances. Both of those aspects were just kind of shorn off in the new episodes (with some exceptions here and there.) Every couple became white/heterosexual, barring a few basic gags typically involving off-screen characters. The Doctor I felt attached to would not have just been cool with all those people staying in cold storage at the end of "The Christmas Carol," nor would he just casually order a genocide of The Silence with no apparent attempts at negotiation or some other kind of trick like the two-parter of S6.
I know that this is part of the game, that after Moffat there'll probably be somebody who does his or her own stuff that may or may not appeal to me more, but it's still disappointing. (And before anybody accuses me of only being a NuWho fan, I've watched all the extant episodes pre-revival too. Not that that lends me more authority, but I need to show my nerdcred too.)
Exterminieren
Banned
I struggle to see how Moffat's take on the Doctor is less merciful and willing for redemption than the take which gave us "No second chances; I'm that sort of a man". Or "I used to have so much mercy". Or the ending of The Family of Blood.
Nor, for that matter, why we're ignoring that the only consistent gay partnership (with the exception of Jack and Ianto, which wasn't even referred to in the episodes in which they appeared) in all of Doctor Who features two characters written by Moffat.
Nor, for that matter, why we're ignoring that the only consistent gay partnership (with the exception of Jack and Ianto, which wasn't even referred to in the episodes in which they appeared) in all of Doctor Who features two characters written by Moffat.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Too much "peril" and story time set aside about him having run out of regenerations, when he fought with a 13th Doctor to save Gallifrey and met Future Tom Baker in the 50th Anniversary.
It's a common trope in all TV shows and movies to focus on a disaster the viewer already ,knows won't happen, but I like to think Who and Moffat are above such traps, it's the kind of thing i'd expect during RTD's tenure.
It's a common trope in all TV shows and movies to focus on a disaster the viewer already ,knows won't happen, but I like to think Who and Moffat are above such traps, it's the kind of thing i'd expect during RTD's tenure.
I haven't watched that special for a while, so I might be remembering it wrong, but didn't The Doctor's fiddling with Gambon's character's past result in all of the capsules eventually becoming empty by the end of the episode?
shanshan310
Member
Yates? Ack, I bloody hope not.
Same here, and a lot of the time they were just served up like "here's this cool character that's awesome and one of the doctor's best pals. LOVE THEM!!!111!!!" I don't know who they are or why, if they are so important to the doctor, they've never appeared before but I need an actual reason to care for them other than being told to because PLOT. Tennant saying goodbye to everyone was emotional because we watched those characters grow for multiple seasons and they were well developed. I honestly don't give a shit about Lem or the Lizard woman or whoever else.
If it did, then I'll apologize for that, but that aspect was way more interesting to me than the plot that it did choose to focus on, and it feels like The Doctor should have been way more interested in fixing that then he was.
And Ext., I'm not willfully ignoring the second chance thing. By the end of the series, that had morphed into giving everybody at least the one chance go get out of it. Still, poor phrasing on my part. I'm writing right before I get off work/go to bed. I appreciate you callin' me out on it. Most of my DW conversations I have usually end up with people just telling me I spend too much time thinking about it.
Even though I fell in love with Doctor Who with RTD, I vastly preferred Moffat's run. I admit, though, that RTD's vision is closer to what Doctor Who (or just sci-fi in general) should be, a commentary on modern society. That need to be relatable did lead to a delicate balancing act: appealing to kids and adults at the same time; keeping it grounded, yet fantastical; and writing a story with the levity of a comedy and the gravity of the drama. Absolutely wonderful when it works, but when it doesn't, it's absolutely cringe-worthy cheese.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I'm going to be that guy and just say I see nothing wrong - save for a couple episodes here and there - with either Moffat or RTD'e runs on the show. It's been the most consistently entertaining show running and I can rewatch episodes endlessly. I didn't like the Master or the candy colored Daleks, I didn't like pavement blowjobs or the Statue of Liberty angel. Both show runners had ups and downs, but the show is fantastic. And I don't know anything about Moffat's personal life, but he doesn't write female characters as if he hates women, so I'm not buying the lame-duck misogyny complaint.
Jest Chillin
Member
I agree. From what I've seen though most of the people down on Moffat are Brits and they have a specific history with the show.
I'm American and I watched nothing but New Who.. fell for the show with RTD and still loved it with Moffat. Thankfully I had watched through S6 outside of any threads because I might have otherwise been influenced by posts... but by now.. I just know that I enjoy what I enjoy and others.. well they have specific ideas about what the show should be. And that's that.
Speaking of series 8's structure... One thing is certain, Moffat needs to stop making one hour finales.
I also had the impression when watching it that helping Gambon's character become kind was going to change things for the better for everyone considering how powerful he was.
I'm not completely sure. That's just what I remember.
I also had the impression when watching it that helping Gambon's character become kind was going to change things for the better for everyone considering how powerful he was.
For season finales, The Wedding of River Song (Series 6) and The Name of the Doctor (Series 7) have clocked in at around 45 minutes, with The Big Bang (Series 7) running at 55 minutes. If you're in North America, each episode hits at about an hour-and-a-half with commercials.
Each Christmas special has a runtime of 60 minutes, with The Day of the Doctor at 76 minutes.
What's your issue with one-hour finales?
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Maybe that's it, as I'm American and discovered the show only a few years ago - thanks to this thread (well, one of the OT threads anyway) and I documented my watching of each episode here. But I've gone back and watched a fair number of the classic episodes, too, so I dunno.
The Big Bang is a two parter beginning with The Pandorica Opens, the other two were one "hour" single part stories, and always felt rushed in terms of pacing.
I just think we'll get better finales if they were split into two episodes instead of just one.
Grenouille
Member
But we always know he is not going to die for real, and yet hes at risk in every episode.
But i agree its kind of pointless to dramatize "the last regeneration" when we had just seen Baker in the previous episode.
one hour finales need to go because there's fuck all breathing room
or just make the episode before the finale the stealth first half of a two parter
the rose tinted glasses for rtd and his era is so fucking annoying, it was unbearable for a lot of the same reasons people don't like moffat
or just make the episode before the finale the stealth first half of a two parter
the rose tinted glasses for rtd and his era is so fucking annoying, it was unbearable for a lot of the same reasons people don't like moffat
Jest Chillin
Member
I think though that going back to Classic after New, probably makes a difference as opposed to having grown up with only Classic to rely on (even after it's cancellation) and then going into to New with expectation... at least that's how I look at it when reading opinions that differ from mine.
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