It's shit.
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Doctor Who: Time Of The Doctor |OT| 11's hour is over now... The clock is striking 12
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It's shit.
ScreenSplitter
Member
It's when the "Long Song" reprise kicks in and Amy walks down the stairs. Oh my god Matt. Come back to me Matt.
MesserWolf
Member
Honestly this was one of the Xmas special I liked the most.
It had indeed plot holes/ jumps, but to be honest those are pretty common in the show and I believe they are rather inevitable, to be able to fit in the 1 hour episode and tide up the various loose ends.
It had indeed plot holes/ jumps, but to be honest those are pretty common in the show and I believe they are rather inevitable, to be able to fit in the 1 hour episode and tide up the various loose ends.
Exterminieren
Banned
Ah. Whoops. Thought it was N. Ireland, but a customary Googling showed me I was wrong, and I clumsily edited. Sorry!
While I certainly agree with you about Clara's development (But I think she has potential if given a whole season and the writers worked on her more).
I find this bit to be the strangest criticism of the regeneration scene.
Actually, I'd say Clara's knowledge regarding the many incarnations would make her even more scared of change.
She knows it's very random and unexpected. Add to that that she became close with Eleven, why wouldn't change scare her?
It mirrors the worry all fans have when a Doctor is leaving, really.
Sure, we're excited for Capaldi, but we didn't know what to expect with Smith after Tennant... Also, Jesus Christ, those eyes are frightening
Much as I'd like River's story to be done with, it'd be worth reopening if it meant more Tasha.
Modern Clara felt like a vapid caricature in all other episodes of Series 7, she was always inferior to her previous incarnations of Clary Poppins and Space Clara/Oswin. In your opinion, which other episode do you think there was a better written/acted Modern Clara than the one we got in TotD?
Mind you that even though I like Jenna and think she's competent I don't like Clara as a companion either and she's still lacking as a character. Since she's not going anywhere I'm just hoping for the best and TotD was a step in the right direction because she felt human as opposed to a cartoon.
I couldn't help but think some of this as the episode was going on. I agree how she managed to pull it off is going to be interesting. There is no way they'd just give up the character of River Song. There is more that can be done with her I think. I hope this is the case and they have her reappear in the new season.
ScreenSplitter
Member
While I certainly agree with you about Clara's development (But I think she has potential if given a whole season and the writers worked on her more).
I find this bit to be the strangest criticism of the regeneration scene.
Actually, I'd say Clara's knowledge regarding the many incarnations would make her even more scared of change.
She knows it's very random and unexpected. Add to that that she became close with Eleven, why wouldn't change scare her?
It mirrors the worry all fans have when a Doctor is leaving, really.
Sure, we're excited for Capaldi, but we didn't know what to expect with Smith after Tennant... Also, Jesus Christ, those eyes are frightening
Lol they are indeed, brings to mind one reviewers quote "When Capaldi says "I'm a mad man with a box, it'll sound like a murderer oiling a chainsaw". Can't wait. I'm as eager for Clara development as any, but my god it's not like she's been given no chances now. She's had basically a full series, when you add individual episodes up.
Gotta admit, like the idea of there being a "Kovarian chapter" of the Silence. And the scene with The Doctor & The Silence teaming up was pretty cool too.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Also she didn't age in 300+ years.
paradox121
Member
Tasha Lem + Capaldi could be mighty interesting.
Talking of which, look what I found : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wLBADeCYHE#t=5m45s
Kinda hard to tell what with it being crappy Youtube quality AND from a nearly 20 year old (brilliant) show but that is indeed a younger Peter Capaldi and Orla Brady playing lovers. COINCIDENCE? Yes, probably.
ScreenSplitter
Member
Well we all know Eleven banged Rose mercilessly during her brief period as a call girl.
Time to talk about more classic Who again.
The Dalek Invasion of Earth
This is probably the first great Dalek story. Their introduction saw their species at the end of their existence on a dying planet; here we start to see how threatening they can really be.
The Tardis lands in London at some point in time, and you know shit is about to go down when literally the first thing you see in an episode is somebody pulling some mechanical stuff off their head and committing suicide by jumping in the river, their corpse just floating along under a sign that says, "no dumping bodies in the river."
This was supposed to be a kids' show, right?
The crew, having clumsily caused part of a bridge to collapse in front of the Tardis doors, start looking around. Long story short, it's the 2150s and the Daleks have committed genocide on the human race and now have control of the planet. Humanity is now down to a few straggling survivors here and there, with the occasional person being turned into a cyborg and made to be essentially a slave overseer, and the Daleks are doing some mysterious mining up north.
So now the episode turns into the crew being separated and trying to find each other while avoiding extermination by the Daleks. And it's awesome. The Doctor and Ian get captured and have to try to escape a Dalek flying saucer, while Susan and Barbara hook up with a resistance cell and try to attack the same saucer, with the aid of a wheelchair-bound scientist's new anti-Dalek grenades.
The attack fails spectacularly. Then the episode turns into everyone trying to meet up near the Dalek mines up north, while dodging the Daleks who are just fucking rolling around the empty London streets. They finally figure out what the Daleks are up to at the mine, and it is Not Good. They are essentially going to hollow out the Earth to use it as a planet-sized spacecraft, which means the end of what's left of humanity.
Everybody gets their chance to look like a genius and/or badass again. Ian gets to be an action hero; Barbara gets to see her share of excitement on her road trip to the north, and even Susan isn't useless. There are some decent supporting characters, too. This is also the last episode for Susan as a companion, and the episode ends with possibly the First Doctor's most well-known speech.
Highly, HIGHLY recommended.
The Dalek Invasion of Earth
This is probably the first great Dalek story. Their introduction saw their species at the end of their existence on a dying planet; here we start to see how threatening they can really be.
The Tardis lands in London at some point in time, and you know shit is about to go down when literally the first thing you see in an episode is somebody pulling some mechanical stuff off their head and committing suicide by jumping in the river, their corpse just floating along under a sign that says, "no dumping bodies in the river."
This was supposed to be a kids' show, right?
The crew, having clumsily caused part of a bridge to collapse in front of the Tardis doors, start looking around. Long story short, it's the 2150s and the Daleks have committed genocide on the human race and now have control of the planet. Humanity is now down to a few straggling survivors here and there, with the occasional person being turned into a cyborg and made to be essentially a slave overseer, and the Daleks are doing some mysterious mining up north.
So now the episode turns into the crew being separated and trying to find each other while avoiding extermination by the Daleks. And it's awesome. The Doctor and Ian get captured and have to try to escape a Dalek flying saucer, while Susan and Barbara hook up with a resistance cell and try to attack the same saucer, with the aid of a wheelchair-bound scientist's new anti-Dalek grenades.
The attack fails spectacularly. Then the episode turns into everyone trying to meet up near the Dalek mines up north, while dodging the Daleks who are just fucking rolling around the empty London streets. They finally figure out what the Daleks are up to at the mine, and it is Not Good. They are essentially going to hollow out the Earth to use it as a planet-sized spacecraft, which means the end of what's left of humanity.
Everybody gets their chance to look like a genius and/or badass again. Ian gets to be an action hero; Barbara gets to see her share of excitement on her road trip to the north, and even Susan isn't useless. There are some decent supporting characters, too. This is also the last episode for Susan as a companion, and the episode ends with possibly the First Doctor's most well-known speech.
Highly, HIGHLY recommended.
Holy crap. Orla Brady is 52!?
If Capaldi/Tasha isn't a thing I'll be sorely disappointed.
Dalek Invasion of Earth is amazing. One of the first Doctor Who stories I ever saw, and those eerie, silent London streets are burned into my memory.
Mother Superious is against aging.
Just rewatched, I'd definitely say it's a good, but not amazing episode. Definitely either the third or joint second best Christmas episode since the reboot.
With Tasha Lem... I feel the same way as I did when Mels showed up in Let's Kill Hitler. There's this character who is so obviously River it's almost too obvious and maybe it won't be true. But I think it will be revealed River escapes the Library, gets more regenerations and become her somehow.
I wish Rory and River had been with Amy when the Doctor was hallucinating. Was still the best regeneration sequence. Be nice for one of them to not regenerate in the TARDIS and immediately crash it sometime soon though.
With Tasha Lem... I feel the same way as I did when Mels showed up in Let's Kill Hitler. There's this character who is so obviously River it's almost too obvious and maybe it won't be true. But I think it will be revealed River escapes the Library, gets more regenerations and become her somehow.
I wish Rory and River had been with Amy when the Doctor was hallucinating. Was still the best regeneration sequence. Be nice for one of them to not regenerate in the TARDIS and immediately crash it sometime soon though.
Yeah it would have been cool to see Rory again too. Miss the guy. I don't think the TARDIS is gonna crash horribly (if at all), it's just acting up.
Exterminieren
Banned
In a remarkable bit of scheduling nous, BBC One actually showed this episode last night, just a matter of hours after TTOTD!
It's actually a well-beloved Christmas special, that one- it's pretty iconic in Britain.
The Illiterati
Member
I groaned through most of RTD's era. Boy, I loved Season 5. Everything after that has been spotty at best. I liked the 50th anniversary....but the Christmas episode was one of the worst I've ever seen. Moffat has zero ability to actually handle long story arcs. Sad because after season 5 I really thought he was the savior of this show. Well, here's hoping Capaldi or some sort of new direction kicks this thing back into shape. What a mess of an episode.
They kind of vindicated her in Journey's End when she got a chance to say I told you so.
I liked that, actually. The Doctor is idealistic and should always be, but idealism doesn't always work in the real world. I think that RTD was more willing to explore that than Moffat, whose run feels like a big moody fairy tale.
Ein Bear
Member
I wonder if the Doctor now being about a thousand years older will have any impact on the next series. Am interested to see if Capaldi's "Do you have any idea how to fly this thing?" line is just the usual post-regeneration confusion, or if centuries of living in the same small town have caused the Doctor to have forgotten a load of stuff.
I can see the attraction in having the most youthful Doctor dying of old age, but can't help but think that it was a mistake. The implications for a character who could never stay still and had to keep exploring, winding up living practically his entire lifetime again, trapped in one small place, are absolutely massive. Will he even want to travel again? Will he remember Clara, or anything about his old lifestyle properly? If anything, it's probably the single biggest thing that could happen to him, yet I feel like Moffat will barely bring it up at all. It's a box that probably shouldn't have been opened.
I can see the attraction in having the most youthful Doctor dying of old age, but can't help but think that it was a mistake. The implications for a character who could never stay still and had to keep exploring, winding up living practically his entire lifetime again, trapped in one small place, are absolutely massive. Will he even want to travel again? Will he remember Clara, or anything about his old lifestyle properly? If anything, it's probably the single biggest thing that could happen to him, yet I feel like Moffat will barely bring it up at all. It's a box that probably shouldn't have been opened.
Anything that's a little bit too boring to be worth writing a proper explanation for.
Actually, that's not a bad subtitle if we have a *between* series thread...
Z
ZombieFred
Unconfirmed Member
What's the rumours/chances of The Master being in the next series by the way people? I could see the next series being perfect for him as they can give some of the other enemies a rest and also have a new tone to the show.
What? No, that's ridiculous.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
What's the name of the musical piece that plays for Clara? I assume it's called Clara's theme or something. It was playing in the episode when the camera was focused on her house as it went in to dinner. I love it. It's pretty good.
APZonerunner
Member
On The Master & Potentially Returning Monsters:
Some hit-and-miss spoiler hounds have suggested The Master will show up as an enemy in the back end of Series 8, yes. They're not the most reliable, though, so pinch of salt.
Regarding resting enemies, there is word that there will be at least two Dalek episodes next year - they're the first Capaldi is filming, next month. Nothing else has been confirmed.
Regarding resting enemies, there is word that there will be at least two Dalek episodes next year - they're the first Capaldi is filming, next month. Nothing else has been confirmed.
One of the Series 8 rumours suggested that
Capaldi would at least temporarily be TARDIS-less and be Earthbound for a few episodes, ala Pertwee
I believe Clara's theme is called A Letter To Clara
Man, I wish
they'd give the Daleks a break. They show up way too often
there hasn't been a proper Dalek episode for aaaaaaages
Pretty much summed up what I came to say. Just a total mess. Poor Moffat has really lost the plot. So have most of the directors. Loud, noisy and totally unable to say to Smith sit the fuck down and stop mugging it. Sorry to say it, but compared to RTD, Moffat is like Graham Williams to RTD's Hinchcliffe. For god sake, please don't make Capaldi 'zany'. Please...I'm about to totally give up on my favourite show I've been watching since I was 6 at this rate...
I ordered this acouple days ago.
First time internet advertising worked for me.
or a (The) Master one for that matter.
First time internet advertising worked for me.
or a (The) Master one for that matter.
APZonerunner
Member
I just wish they'd do a proper, proper one, yeah.
There hasn't been one since The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, really. They're diluted by the WW2/Churchill/Evolution stuff in Victory, they're all broke in Asylum, the one in The Big Bang isn't functioning properly and it's a cameo in The Wedding of River Song. In the 50th they're background noise (though I really do love the one scene of them on Gallifrey, but a shame we don't see any exterminations), and the same again here.
I think Asylum is a really strong episode, but I don't think it's a strong Dalek episode really, and I think the actual concept is a bit wasted, as "insane" in it ends up equating to "broken and dusty", which is a bummer. Some genuinely insane Daleks would be nice. Caan is the closest we've had! But I suppose the Cult of Skaro was unique, free thought and all that. Sec and Caan both go off the rails by Dalek standards. I'm trying to think - have they actually exterminated a person in the Moffat era? Hmm... A couple of random soldiers in Victory, I think? And the old Daleks? Beyond that, I don't think we've seen them actually kill somebody on screen in ages, which is sad. I'd like to see them leave a high body count again.
I think Asylum is a really strong episode, but I don't think it's a strong Dalek episode really, and I think the actual concept is a bit wasted, as "insane" in it ends up equating to "broken and dusty", which is a bummer. Some genuinely insane Daleks would be nice. Caan is the closest we've had! But I suppose the Cult of Skaro was unique, free thought and all that. Sec and Caan both go off the rails by Dalek standards. I'm trying to think - have they actually exterminated a person in the Moffat era? Hmm... A couple of random soldiers in Victory, I think? And the old Daleks? Beyond that, I don't think we've seen them actually kill somebody on screen in ages, which is sad. I'd like to see them leave a high body count again.
An aside - how weird that Murray Gold chose to use a passage from the Series 4 version of The Doctor's Theme (only heard twice - when he saves River's life and when they have the 'outer space facebook' scenes) in the big grandstanding scene atop the tower before he regenerates! There's a blast from This is Gallifrey which transitions into that, then something all new. Just strange how he'd bring that passage back after not using it once during Smith's era!
Aren't they contractually obligated to appear every year?
He has his flaws and his bag of tricks seems to be running empty, but his tenure has overall been WAY stronger than RTD's, warts and all. Not that RTD didn't have his share of spectacular episodes too, but there were far more mediocre-to-shit episodes in the Eccleston/Tennant years than the Smith era, imo.
And S5 still stands as far and away the single best year of the show, so there's always that.
More classic Who talk!
Just finished up The Rescue. It was the first episode I came across that was just a two parter, but I really liked it for it (nice to have only one quickly introduced and equally quickly dismissed cliffhanger in a First Doctor episode). The solution to the problem is very transient, and like many episodes in the First Doctor tenure the Doctor and co feel like transient bypassers/observers rather than key to the solution.
I've got the Romans coming up next thanks to the nice DVD combo box.
Just finished up The Rescue. It was the first episode I came across that was just a two parter, but I really liked it for it (nice to have only one quickly introduced and equally quickly dismissed cliffhanger in a First Doctor episode). The solution to the problem is very transient, and like many episodes in the First Doctor tenure the Doctor and co feel like transient bypassers/observers rather than key to the solution.
I've got the Romans coming up next thanks to the nice DVD combo box.
No idea... I hope not.
They could use a whole year off and then make a comeback with a proper Dalek story.
Only if it's played by Vincent Franklin please.
APZonerunner
Member
RE contractual obligations: they were early on (S1, 2, 3, 4), but when they renegotiated after Series 4, something definitely changed. Nobody really knows what, though, the BBC doesn't talk about it. It's widely believed what changed is that the contract got softened from "obligated to be a major presence in an episode every year" to "obligated to appear every year", which is why in 2009 there's one scene with one in The Waters of Mars (a romantic Dalek! Really lovely shot, that) and one in The Wedding of River Song when they're otherwise absent. It could be the case that the obligation was removed entirely and those two scenes were organic, though, as they do feel like they'd always be there. It also seems like Dalek-related scripts no longer have to go through the Terry Nation estate, which they did early on, something that was a point of frustration for RTD.
RE the age old Moffat vs RTD debate, I always feel it goes like this: RTD has higher highs and lower lows, and had far more success with the family demographic & making the show into a media monster in the UK alongside the likes of the X Factor and such. Moffat is far more consistent in quality, but he doesn't quite reach the peaks or the dank depths RTD does. His tenure so far is consistently good, but perhaps doesn't drag itself up to real classic greatness as often. It also doesn't drag itself down to be an embarrassment either, so swings & roundabouts. He's also more successful in making the show into a success with the niche, nerdy, sci-fi crowd (hello, GAF!) and as such has had greater success abroad.
Like, it's funny - Torchwood (when it was having its good stretches) was appealing to the same crowd in the US that Doctor Who now does. RTD designed Torchwood with that remit - Buffy was a major inspiration - "Doctor Who, but suitable for that niche audience." And prior to Who blowing up, it was Torchwood having the massive comic con panels which Doctor Who shared, and it was John Barrowman getting a bigger cheer than David Tennant.
Doctor Who has the unique problem now of being a show with a huge, very lucrative international audience of comic con goers and such, while in the UK the reason the BBC actually commissions it is for a Saturday-evening sit down for Mum, Dad, Boy & Girl to all watch together. It's the only real piece of drama aimed at that audience (well, there's Merlin/Atlantis etc, but they're just a spec on the schedules compared to Who); all the other TV friendly for that combined audience is comedy or reality, and all the other drama is either 'for kids' or 'for adults' with some BBC Three stuff for adolescents in the middle.
Moffat's Who opened the show up to a massive amount of new fans, but also made his life extremely difficult, as it's hard to please both those audiences. Last night is a perfect sort of example - I think many of those satisfied are those who'd sit and watch a season of Stargate or Firefly, and many of those not are the ones who had to sit there with their family feeling a little bit conscious at how disconnected the others in the room have become from the show (I certainly felt this yesterday). Moffat has to balance the two as he wants to keep making that BBC Worldwide money from sales abroad to the niche markets as it helps the show out, but he also has to keep the show on track to the actual remit that gets it renewed and gets it the prime time BBC One timeslot every week.
So that's where the difficulty sits, really. Moffat's success abroad is impossible not to note and laud, but it's also easy - as a Brit - to sit back and say that in terms of the public consciousness here Smith's regeneration was (even though viewed by similar numbers) a lot less of an 'event' than Tennant's. Tennant's headlined the news that night! Stolen Earth cliffhanger on the front page of the papers! All that jazz. The show isn't a 'water cooler' show that EVERYBODY would talk about as it was then, it's dipped back to being more of a thing you expect to hear some nerdier people or kids talking about. My mum isn't going to phone me to talk about the latest cliffhanger any more. Ironically, Sherlock, another Moffat show, appears to be the watercooler BBC show for adults now. I still think all that is pretty indicative of what each of the two showrunners are good at in Doctor Who terms, mind. When I think about the difference between the two, I always think of an interview where RTD essentially says "if something from the old lore doesn't fit with what I want to do, I'll find a way to nuke that old lore from orbit or ignore it" while Moffat in the same answer described himself as "clinically unable to contradict" past Doctor Who. Which leads to arcs like this regeneration, Gallifrey, reset thing!
I don't even...
Jest Chillin
Member
I agree with you, though I do think Roman Rory accomplished the badassery as it was intended. But generally, yes, the Rory/Amy romance didn't really fit. It actually felt very Mickey/Rose to me up until the point where Rory guarded her, which I felt was done specifically because they didn't feel as cohesive as The Doctor and Amy.
I do. Not to restate APZonerunner's so eloquently put post but the key difference that I see between the two era's is that RTD's is lighter while Moffats so much thicker with drama. What this seems to result in is that RTD's era is much more re-watch friendly while Moffat's is much harder to rewatch because now that you know the drama that's coming it feels heavier and harder to watch. That same quality of Moffat's seasons also make them grab you much more on your first watch through. It's the kind of stuff that makes a certain type of viewer marathon the show because they need to see what's going to happen next. It's not "let's tune in to see the quirky adventures of the Doctor" as much "I have to see the next episode to see where they're going with this arc."
It's far less one off procedural and more a heavy serial. And different types of viewers resonate with each style. So it's to be expected that those that love the RTD era may not like the Moffat era as much and vice versa. And while I have my own personal taste in that regard I also recognize that as a strength of the show because like each iteration of the Doctor is different while the same, each new Showrunner's era is as well.
Discotheque
Banned
s5 the best run of the show forreal. even with it's weak episodes it all had a lovely vibe to it.
That's exactly what Moffat wanted to convey, I think.
Amy didn't appreciate Rory, and the Doctor was this person who he'd been competing with all his life for her attention. He decided to guard her for 2000 years, as a sign of true faithfulness. The Doctor couldn't do that.
You're in for such a treat. The Romans might just be my favorite Hartnell story ever.
So sorry as I know this is only slightly related, but I need somewhere to post. So I'm still in the middle of my journey as a Doctor Who noob to catch up with you guys (a shame I couldn't make it for yesterday's episode and probably won't get to it in a while, but I'm enjoying the ride anyway) and today I got to watch the inbetween S4 and S5 specials, including the tenth doctor's regeneration plus Matt Smith's first episode.
Wow. Curiously enough I liked the first three in-between specials better than the actual End of Time (specially Planet of the Dead and Waters of Mars, holy shit those are master pieces), but Tennant's good bye scene(s) were pretty emotional nonetheless.
And despite me loving Tennant and being only one episode in on season 5, I'm already sold on Matt's doctor, plus Amy is pretty good looking. Bring it on!
Wow. Curiously enough I liked the first three in-between specials better than the actual End of Time (specially Planet of the Dead and Waters of Mars, holy shit those are master pieces), but Tennant's good bye scene(s) were pretty emotional nonetheless.
And despite me loving Tennant and being only one episode in on season 5, I'm already sold on Matt's doctor, plus Amy is pretty good looking. Bring it on!
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