We are talking about that -and trying to do something about it- on this thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=719935
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=719935
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Eurogamer: What happens when F2P games aren't free? (Editorial on XB1 launch games)
- Thread starter AHA-Lambda
- Start date
Nightengale
Member
Your friend's a big racing guy.
IMO, most reviewers for car games are simply bad, bad, bad at reviewing them. Racing sims should be judged by real drivers who know what it means for games to be a simulator, not your average gamer reviewer.
Very few reviewers called out on content limitation, the experience associated with the car experience, etc because they don't understand how important those things are to the core audience buying these type of games.
Sessler or Geis doesn't understand how restricted Forza's content is. To them, the lack of the Nurb doesn't bother them, whereas every single racing friend of mine thinks T10 is insane for not having it at launch.
CecilRousso
Member
If there's a way to fastforward progression and skip grind, then the game is designed with an intentional flaw, and I feel that just the knowledge about it is enough for me to skip that game.
I want fun events and missions that are designed so that I like the challenge of them, and I have a hard time believing that you would offer a way to skip them if you succesfully design such events/missions.
That they're optional is not an argument,. If they are available, then the game will be designed so that you will want to use them.
I have no problems accepting DLC and cosmetic items, but this kind of micro payments are bullshit.
I want fun events and missions that are designed so that I like the challenge of them, and I have a hard time believing that you would offer a way to skip them if you succesfully design such events/missions.
That they're optional is not an argument,. If they are available, then the game will be designed so that you will want to use them.
I have no problems accepting DLC and cosmetic items, but this kind of micro payments are bullshit.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
And the more traction it's allowed, the more the games will be built for this:
Whaling. You get irate, even to the extent of not buying the game itself, and it does nothing because there's a whale out there who will go for the nickel-and-diming to compensate.
Then we get people going "BUH BUH BUH ITS ONLY A LIL BIT WORSE *spin spin spin*. That's the point: stopping it before it grows. Remember Horse Armor? Same shit happened then, but the backlash didn't occur, and it grew into this. This far and no further so we CAN have sensible DLC instead of watching as that kind of respectable practice becomes rare.
Didn't see this anywhere; what are we talking here? Throwback jerseys a Tales of Xillia-esque $3 a pop or something?
Same. I was looking into that after not playing one since GT3 (seriously), but I think I'll get GT5 both much cheaper and much cheaper.
Whaling. You get irate, even to the extent of not buying the game itself, and it does nothing because there's a whale out there who will go for the nickel-and-diming to compensate.
Then we get people going "BUH BUH BUH ITS ONLY A LIL BIT WORSE *spin spin spin*. That's the point: stopping it before it grows. Remember Horse Armor? Same shit happened then, but the backlash didn't occur, and it grew into this. This far and no further so we CAN have sensible DLC instead of watching as that kind of respectable practice becomes rare.
Didn't see this anywhere; what are we talking here? Throwback jerseys a Tales of Xillia-esque $3 a pop or something?
Same. I was looking into that after not playing one since GT3 (seriously), but I think I'll get GT5 both much cheaper and much cheaper.
CecilRousso
Member
The backlash didn't happen for horse armour? Well that's wrong. The backlash was enormous, and it was equally ridiculed by both the press and the customers, and it's still used as the shining example of DLC gone wrong, and it's seven years now since it was released.
TheBanditKing
Member
Yeah I read about Forza, dick move and really pisses me off. Still GT6 is going to have them too now, vote with your wallets people.
Cosmic Schwung
Member
I've heard this as well but not from a definitive source. I'd really like to know if it's true, or not.
Fahrenheit
Banned
Like I said in the other thread, if I known this was in the game I would of never bought it. Haven't played a Forza since 3 and didn't research this enough so it's my fault. Will not make that mistake twice.
I'd be fine with the pay system if everything were to stay the same and only the previously impatient would use it. But that is obviously a change to add incentive to paying. Not cool.
IISANDERII
Member
Expected from MS these days but Sony now too? A 2nd party Sony studio? Fucking Polyphony? This fucking blows.
I may hold off on GT6.
I may hold off on GT6.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Pay-For-Free-To-Play?
Pfftp.
Pfftp.
Problem I see with voting with your wallet here is that you can only vote 'no' once but whales can vote 'yes' many, many times.
It upsets me more when I get a DLC for some reason and that gives me free guns or stuff like that at a point where it's probably not intended in the game design. Now granted, I don't buy DLC like that so I only know it from free DLC and bundles but e.g. Far Cry 2 started me with an explosive crossbow that made buying the RPGs pointless because it fills the same role and didn't require diamonds to unlock. Apparently the preorder-only bonus weapons in Deadspace 3 are similar, you get them when you wouldn't normally be able to get items of that level. IMO DLC stuff should act just like the non-DLC stuff.
[quote refers to having to buy installed DLC items in the game]
It upsets me more when I get a DLC for some reason and that gives me free guns or stuff like that at a point where it's probably not intended in the game design. Now granted, I don't buy DLC like that so I only know it from free DLC and bundles but e.g. Far Cry 2 started me with an explosive crossbow that made buying the RPGs pointless because it fills the same role and didn't require diamonds to unlock. Apparently the preorder-only bonus weapons in Deadspace 3 are similar, you get them when you wouldn't normally be able to get items of that level. IMO DLC stuff should act just like the non-DLC stuff.
sublimit
Banned
Well gotta keep that Metascore high AT ALL COSTS!!!
Freeman
Banned
2nd party?
Triggerhappytel
Member
As far as I'm aware, the only three publications which called into question the stripped-back content and questionable DLC policies were Edge, Eurogamer and Gamecentral.
sublimit
Banned
I'm curious if "journalists" will treat GT6 with the same scores as Forza5 and keep hiding this shit under the carpet or if they will go all out on PD and reward the game with low scores (which will be very hypocritic of them).
Either way, it would be deserved.
sublimit
Banned
It's doomed if we do and doomed if we don't but hey they have digged their own graves.
Microsoft always at the fore front of nickel and diming. Along with EA I suppose. In any case, consumers should just speak with their wallets. Or hit Twitter or whatever and get their voices heard. We can't let this become industry standard. It's paying for Online all over again. Once a few get away with it, they'll all jump on board.
chickdigger802
Banned
How is the balance though? Do you feel the bullshit? Or do you make enough cash in which grind isn't necessary?
Can you trade in cars for gold?
Can you trade in cars for gold?
In Forza 5, grind is really necessary, much worse than Forza 4.
You mean the season pass, right?
SatelliteOfLove
Member
The backlash didn't happen for horse armour? Well that's wrong. The backlash was enormous, and it was equally ridiculed by both the press and the customers, and it's still used as the shining example of DLC gone wrong, and it's seven years now since it was released.
Well, it was more reguarded as an attack on the silliness of someone buying something like that, the shocking chutzpah of Bethesda to charge for that rather than an attack on what gamers can expect for their money the practice can evolve to in the present time.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
If this were the case, it is even more interesting to note that European publications were on average more harsh on the FM5's use of microtransactions (which I'm guessing is what you were pointing at).
Seems somewhat shady. Forza 4 had credits you could buy but money was easy to come by. I don't mind them having this system, I do mins them pushing it in the UI. Sleezeball stuff. Forza Horizon did it, but it didn't irk me there, so as long as the new one doesn't get worse than it was, I'm in.
Yep, fortunately the game isn't good enough for me to even consider the pass anymore, but it still sets a shitty precedent. With MS, it feels like most of their exclusives at launch are released half-finished, and they're charging you extra to play the rest of it as it gets worked on.
It's worse in Forza 5!
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-11-20-forza-motorsport-5-review
And that's the whole point: It will keep getting worse!
ElRenoRaven
Member
Very simple fix for this. Vote with your wallet. Don't buy this shit. If enough don't then developers and publishers will get the hint. It's been proven it works. We've certainly proven that can work the last several months.
It's sad that they're doing this shit with Forza too. The franchise has been a very good franchise.
It's sad that they're doing this shit with Forza too. The franchise has been a very good franchise.
travisbickle
Member
I'm holding off on GT6 for now. If the game is the same as GT5 but people can buy credits then I don't care. But if they change everything to make buying credits the only realistic way to progress I'll be disappointed ... if they remove prize cars I'll be fucking shocked!!
You need VC to buy clothing, shoes, accessories for your charcter in Mycareer. You need VC to buy shot animations, dunk packages. You need VC to take your Myteam online. You need VC for pretty much everything in MyGM mode. If you have 2K14 you would see this the moment you start anything besides quick play. You have to farm your ass off just to do simple things that should be unlocked from the get go. They are going to kill the series.
sublimit
Banned
I feel exactly the same.
BibiMaghoo
Member
It's funny really, because the position of if this is good or bad, largely depends on where you are standing.
The bad is obvious, and doesn't need repeating again. It comes across as milking the fanbase for every dollar going.
However, there are positive reasons for doing this. Think back to - I think it was the first - BFBC2. They had shortcut DLC for the weapon unlocks, something that continued with BF3. I don't think there is anything inherently unfair about this. It is not milking customers, and allows the option for those with limited time to 'pay off' that time instead. There are many, many people that do not have 100+hrs to devote to a game to unlock things, just to be on even ground, and for these people, those packs are a god send. They are not out of reach for those that do not want to pay, and are there to help people that can.
This model I am fine with. Gran Turismo has always been a massive grind to get the more expensive cars, and so I would welcome the change to pay maybe a £1 or £2 instead. I assume Forza is similar but have never played it.
The problem comes I think when DLC is presented to the gamer as something they should already have, something that is missing and shouldn't be. This is easy to avoid if they want too, and still be able to do the above. People just need to feel that:
a) It is presented as an option of money / time.
b) It is not something that should be present and is being sold as DLC - a removal
c) It does not unfairly advantage those who can afford against those that cannot.
The bad is obvious, and doesn't need repeating again. It comes across as milking the fanbase for every dollar going.
However, there are positive reasons for doing this. Think back to - I think it was the first - BFBC2. They had shortcut DLC for the weapon unlocks, something that continued with BF3. I don't think there is anything inherently unfair about this. It is not milking customers, and allows the option for those with limited time to 'pay off' that time instead. There are many, many people that do not have 100+hrs to devote to a game to unlock things, just to be on even ground, and for these people, those packs are a god send. They are not out of reach for those that do not want to pay, and are there to help people that can.
This model I am fine with. Gran Turismo has always been a massive grind to get the more expensive cars, and so I would welcome the change to pay maybe a £1 or £2 instead. I assume Forza is similar but have never played it.
The problem comes I think when DLC is presented to the gamer as something they should already have, something that is missing and shouldn't be. This is easy to avoid if they want too, and still be able to do the above. People just need to feel that:
a) It is presented as an option of money / time.
b) It is not something that should be present and is being sold as DLC - a removal
c) It does not unfairly advantage those who can afford against those that cannot.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Or how about developers don't put in massive grinds into their games to incentivize DLC unlocks?
I don't want F2P/Mobile game design philosophy lead to grindier games this gen.
I don't want F2P/Mobile game design philosophy lead to grindier games this gen.
No just no that's fucked up. I'm so conflicted right now. I heard in the GameTrailers video review, certain on the disc gameplay events are even locked behind paid DLC. That shit is beyond messed up.
Welp its moves like this that make me feel relieved I didn't but into microsofts supposed "enlightening" after the e3 backlash.
It seems once again Microsoft is using a new generation as a means to try and lead the charge to further nickel and dime players with shitty paywall content that hurts the consumer.
I just hope Sony really isn't following suite with GT6.
Frankly I put up with the rise of paywalls and DLC but if this stuff becomes the new norm I really am probably out when it comes to major publishers videogames.
It seems once again Microsoft is using a new generation as a means to try and lead the charge to further nickel and dime players with shitty paywall content that hurts the consumer.
I just hope Sony really isn't following suite with GT6.
Frankly I put up with the rise of paywalls and DLC but if this stuff becomes the new norm I really am probably out when it comes to major publishers videogames.
I wouldn't lumber KZ in there. They're giving us 6-8 major DLC maps completely free. It's an excellent trade off. Better to pay for entire new modes if there has to be DLC, than to pay for competitive maps which split up the community. Guerrilla Games absolutely got it right.
MesserWolf
Member
I do not support this business model at all.
absolutely awful.
absolutely awful.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Wait, so if you buy DLC cars they aren't unlocked from the moment you purchase them! WTF!?!?
I didn't think I had any confidence in games reviewers left to lose, but wow. How does someone who calls himself a games reviewer give Forza 5 a 5/5 or 9/10 without even mentioning microtransactions? Do they care about the consumer at all? Given that these journalists have been spouting anti consumer rhetoric for a while, it's not surprising I guess, but this is a total alienation of the consumer's interests. smh