Rran
Member
This... so much this.
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Adam Orth no longer with Microsoft
- Thread starter Wario64
- Start date
BlazingDarkness
Member
David, why did you ruin Twisted Metal. It makes me sad.
What the hell man :lol
This. It's not like he's just some random guy running his mouth, either. He is in a very sensitive position, and it sucks for him, but sometimes you just can't freely say anything because of that. Nobody can stop a person from throwing out dumb comments, but there will be consequences, and far reaching ones at that.
If some random guy comes along and says "I want North Korea to rule the world," we all just say "you're an idiot" and move on with our lives. If an American general were to come out and say the same thing, it would be a pretty huge deal. That's kind of a hyperbolic analogy, but you get what I'm saying.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
It must be true because that one guy said it and you replied.
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
lmao
GillianSeed79
Member
But is the "gaming lynch mob mentality" actually representative of gamers as a whole or is it merely representative of a minority of gamers that shout the loudest and thus color the image of the rest of gaming's consumers? Do you find yourself internalizing the most negative views of gamers and projecting that onto everyone else?
I do sympathize with some of you guys in the industry. I could no more design the shittiest of shit games than build a rocket to travel to Mars, so I'm sure it's hard for you guys to hear people make blanket statements like "This game is shit" or "This guy is an idiot" without feeling like a lot of the most negative people have no idea what it's like to actually work on a game or work in the industry or what have you.
I'm sure it's very easy to become defensive or insulated and rally around those who also work in the profession while also, unintentionally, beginning to view the most vocal and negative in the gaming community as everyone or even the enemy per se. Not saying that you do that or anything.
I mean for all the shit Sim City, Mass Effect 3 and Diablo III got, they still sold very well and people still think highly of those gams. I doubt the average game consumer even knows who Adam Orth is, which probably makes the loss of his job hurt even more I guess.
I feel bad that your friend resigned, but, then again, can you understand that, while some of us took offense to some of his comments and really don't like the idea of always online, we weren't calling for his head on a pike? Obviously, there were people doing that, but some of us voiced our vocal opinion and dislike for his comments and the idea of always online without wanting to see him sacked.
I've always respected your work and your ability to be candid, even on GAF, so I just wanted to weigh in with my two cents.
What about the comments not directed at Manveer? Were those trolling? Adam made a lot of statements well before Manveer stepped in, Jaffe. They seemed pretty aimed at his Twitter followers... he knew what he was doing when he posted those.
There's trying to save face immediately after the fact by saying, "I was trolling guys!" and there's actually apologizing to the public by explicitly saying, "I'm sorry to all those I offended, I was joking about everything I said". He chose to do the former, which everyone chooses to ignore it because of how immediate it was and because it wasn't a serious way to apologize the ones he offended. He didn't take any time at all to think about what he said and instead chose to scapegoat by saying he was trolling...
How do you expect anyone, Jaffe, to take that seriously and as fact after what he just said a few comments prior to everyone that wasn't Manveer?
You seem fine throwing us all under the buss with this lynch mob shit, when it's clear there are tons of people here trying to converse with you. Yet you're surprised when someone sees a dev sticking up for another dev they lump you all together?
breakfuss
Member
Ok, wow, so they really did can this guy. That's freaking tough, and I don't agree with the decision at all. How does that benefit Microsoft? Certainly it may discourage others at the company from exhibiting the save behavior, but the public backlash was seemingly enough that I'm sure no one every think to do it again. Microsoft is no better a position after letting this guy go.
Wickerbasket
Member
I don't think you should take offence to someone pointing out the ridiculous use hyperbole; he made a valid point.
Instead, if you were offended by it, then I would think that it would probably be a wise idea to tone down the hyperbole when trying to make a point.
It wasn't satire either by the way.
blitzcloud
Banned
Then again I think of the devs people seem to like, and they all seem to have quite a character, like Kamiya who tells people to eat shit and makes us crack up. Do we really want people to be only on the bounds of professionalism? Or do we only want them when they say something that doesn't meet our tastes?
At this point i'm starting to believe there must be cultural differences.
Also, i'd like to be pointed out by someone as expert as yourself seem to be as to what part of my comparison was hyperbole, aside from the obvious magnitude of using a recognized novel as the base of comparison in a tiny little aspect. We have an expression which may not be correct directly translated: reduction to the absurd by selective quoting.
Edit: probably better if continued through PM. genuinely interested.
Did I say you were one example of an out of touch man? I think it's pretty clear I was explaining why someone takes the opinions of people they respect in such high regard, and why they feel disappointed when such opinions ignore basic facts.
Nowhere did I mention that yours was the case, and I don't think it is. But you seem to be extremely susceptible tonight, and right now are hearing only what you want to hear.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
For every 10 people who have responded tonite since I started engaging in this discussion (on here and my twitter) and saying I agreed with SOME Of what Cliff said, at LEAST 5 for every 10 people attacked me for being anti-consumer and saying my views of ALWAYS ONLINE were wrong,bad,stupid,evil.
However, I NEVER said I supported Always Online. And you know what? I don't.
But that doesn't stop 50+% of the posters from attacking me because they- without actually taking the time to read/take in the facts- feel I am pro ALWAYS ONLINE.
To me, this equals 'lynch mob'.
A large group of folks attacking Orth for being elitist in saying 'why on Earth would I live there' and refusing to take in the REPORTED FACT that in saying this he was taking the piss out of his friend and clearly didn't mean it= 'lynch mob'.
NOTE: When you say 'lynch mob' I think of Frankenstein/Beauty&The Beast,Frankenweenie when the villagers grabbed pitchforks and attacked the monster without really realizing that the creature had NOT harmed the girl but didn't bother to discover the facts before attacking.
Aquamarine
Member
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
Best response ever, haha.
#2. I do agree to the effect that when something anti-consumer or flatout unfair starts to bubble up, lots of forum users jump on people who attempt to defend their practices (this can be overwhelming at times).
While this does indeed reduce the potential of nuanced discourse and generates endless posts of ridicule and scorn, it's hard for me to attribute it directly to a "lynch mob mentality" because you do get those glimmers of discussion that shine through, and there are users who decide to take the issue with a grain of salt.
Lynch mob implies that all rational thought has been thrown out the window, and that's just not true here. A lot of it, sure, but you know.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Well yeah, you did. You mentioned me and Cliff and said we were out of touch with consumers.
R3TRODYCE
Member
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
Not going to lie...I Lol'd.
RobotMafia
Banned
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
I mean you could have tried to make a good game like Twisted Metal Black, but I guess that just wasn't your agenda?
That's a good question. I don't have an answer for it right now.
I'd honestly prefer professionalism across the board (even if I find Kamiya's tweets funny and non-threatening) but as they say, it's easier said than done.
As an aside, Kamiya comes off as an exception for some reason lol.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
He is being attacked for what he stands for. If you want to lend him aid and comfort against that animosity you can't reasonably divorce yourself from the position that provoked the animosity in the first place. To do so would be to take the entire exchange out of context.
lastflowers
Banned
You bring the right kind of humor to this delicate subject. I like you.
Can Crusher
Banned
I get what Jaffe is saying, and people being happy a guy got fired/quit(for the reasons at hand) is in fact non sense.
At the same time though I have to be honest, Adam didn't do himself any favors. He sold a poor image of himself because he handled a very hot topic, very very poorly. He was in the position he was, and presenting himself as a rather arrogant person who presented his arguments in a way that left little space for Internet sympathy made him lose reason. He simply treated opponents of the idea as inferiors by resorting to poor presentation of his arguments, preferring to pass the notion of someone acting superior, and dismissive of the concerns of many regarding certain rumored features.
He even went the extra mile with analogies that only existed but to mock. A negative outcome was in the cards, and of course assholes would be assholes when it came to him losing his job.
At the same time though I have to be honest, Adam didn't do himself any favors. He sold a poor image of himself because he handled a very hot topic, very very poorly. He was in the position he was, and presenting himself as a rather arrogant person who presented his arguments in a way that left little space for Internet sympathy made him lose reason. He simply treated opponents of the idea as inferiors by resorting to poor presentation of his arguments, preferring to pass the notion of someone acting superior, and dismissive of the concerns of many regarding certain rumored features.
He even went the extra mile with analogies that only existed but to mock. A negative outcome was in the cards, and of course assholes would be assholes when it came to him losing his job.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
Don't know about this ,David. I have school in the morning and you live far away. Can we lynch you on Sunday?
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Yeah but maybe he doesn't feel the need to apologize for the ALWAYS ON stuff. Maybe he feels that way. He gets to feel that way, right?
And I can see people being angry at his VIEW. Good for them. But I'm suggesting they should be able to separate that anger from the part of the statement where he was joking with his friend. I got ZERO issue with people disliking Adam for his ALWAYS ON views. I just think a lot of folks are so anti ALWAYS ON that they are letting that carry over into personal attacks (and using what was a friend troll as justification for doing so).
SneakyStephan
Banned
Lynch mob, my favorite phrase alongside entitled...
The gaming industry resembles a toddler : it's never them it's always someone else, or 'but mom he did it too', or 'it's not fair', vicariously avoiding eye contact when asked if they did their homework.
The gaming industry resembles a toddler : it's never them it's always someone else, or 'but mom he did it too', or 'it's not fair', vicariously avoiding eye contact when asked if they did their homework.
ProfessorMoran
Member
Nobody on gaf fucking knew who Adam Orth even was or give two shits about him, gaf didn't invite Adam Orth to give his fantastic insight into "always-on", it was Adam Orth who decided he wanted to inject his own opinion into the issue, and instead of having a civilized dialogue, it was Adam Orth who proceeded to act all snarky and shit.
There's no "lynch mob" mentality when Adam Orth decided it was a good idea for him to insult a whole group of people (those rural people with shitty internet connection) then going "oops shit I meant to rag on only my friend, right friend? *wink wink*", don't stick your head into a hornets nest and go rararararar with your tongue sticking out. It wasn't like gaf called Steve Ballmer and like "hello this is dog fire Adam Orth", he resigned. Adam Orth is a big boy, he fucked up, microsoft got rid of him, the end. Let's not make him out into some kind of gaf lynch mob victim, however fucking all powerful gaf is on the internet.
Read the post I quoted again. I NEVER mentioned you two. The guy I quoted asked why people give so much attention to some person's comments on the internet, for example Cliff's and yours. I replied that people tend to care about the things people they respect say, and that they don't like seeing them out of touch with their own concerns. "They" as in "people they respect", not "CliffyB and David Jaffe".
If you felt attacked, I apologise, as it wasn't my intention at all. I was being broad, not pointing at you guys.
People put together strawman arguments all the god damn time. Why are you so surprise it happened to Orth?
What is pissing most people here off is, you and Cliffy are lumping us all together as this one big mean entity which we are not. We are individual accounts, minds, people and just because we all may feel the same way about something doesn't mean we all act in the same way.
Of course. I mean that sometimes they disregard those concerns without giving them a second thought. Not every critic is valid, but they should be listened to and refuted with proper arguments. Not that "gamers are so entitled, deal with it" bullshit we've seen a couple of times.
Wickerbasket
Member
Hyperbole can be exaggerated statements that are usually intended to make things look worse than they are. Comparing some guy losing his job because of comments he made representing his company on twitter to anything that goes on in 1984 is ridiculous, hence it is hyperbole. This guy could have posted absolutely anonymously without punishment, in 1984, he'd be watched 24 hours around the clock regardless.
Similar hyperbole would be me comparing online only gaming to 1984. The ever watchful eye.
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
HAHAHA, oh man that's great
CaptainGyro
Banned
Ok I change my post to this. I'm fine with making a small change because I don't think that removing the "hyperbole" drastically removes an effect that i think was important anyway.
I love all the hyperbole and blowing out of proportion that is being used by some users here. So far we have that this is a "lynching" , people were in "utter hysterics" or "out for blood", there are people in a society that were "oddly depicted in 1984", and somebody thinks this only happened because "God forbid someone working there has an opinion".
It's more like a shitload of people voiced their displeasure about an employee telling them to to "deal with" their anti-consumer BS. There is absolutely nothing wrong with letting a company know that you don't just want to "deal with it". That's what you're supposed to do.
No hyperbole.
Depends on whether or not he was representing his company inappropriately with "Creative Director, Microsoft" plastered on his Twitter when he decided to feel that way for several posts before Manveer came into the picture.
Feels like this interchange is going in circles. Adam Orth's callous attitude towards keeping projects or company business a secret along with talking shit in front of all the internet is why his name is now being darted across the internet.
Lynch mobs form because of unwise or misjudged words, you can't put blame on a large group of people, you have to reason with them and justify your position in the best way possible. The way Adam spoke not only pissed of the internet, it pissed off his employer.
People shouldn't be ganged up on for opinion or views, but you know what, they do. And if their views aren't presented correctly, you can expect blind, feverish malice. The internet isn't a place solely for agreement, it's usually a place of discourse.
Lynch mobs form because of unwise or misjudged words, you can't put blame on a large group of people, you have to reason with them and justify your position in the best way possible. The way Adam spoke not only pissed of the internet, it pissed off his employer.
People shouldn't be ganged up on for opinion or views, but you know what, they do. And if their views aren't presented correctly, you can expect blind, feverish malice. The internet isn't a place solely for agreement, it's usually a place of discourse.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Hear. Hear.
People use Twitter to get mass outreach of their opinions and never complain about the platform when all they're getting is a bunch of favorites and resounding agreement.
However, as soon as they say something stupid and people react accordingly, it's "lol Internet overreacts!"
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
I am NOT lumping you all into anything.
You want to have an actual discussion about the facts? Cool.
You want to aid me in shifting my perspective and perhaps in doing so bring me over to your way of thinking? My mind is open.
But folks who want those things are not who Cliff was talking about. He was talking about a general sense of piling on in this case and in other cases. If you are not one of those folks who does that, GREAT! I love that!
But just because you are not, you must admit there IS a mob mentality among fans in general, be it games (XBOX VS PS), movies (STAR WARS V. STAR TREK) and SPORTS (if I was not a geek I could give you some team rivalries
...AUBURN v. ALABAMA?!? " and sometimes it can get very dirty and mean. Like a post a few posts above where a guy actually thinks Orth was attacking rural players who didn't live in big cities. I mean, come on! He. Was. Joking.
Okay, yes, there's a misinterpretation going on there, sure. So people are using the wrong comments he made as justification to be mad.
Would you, then, feel better at all if people used the actual comments that weren't directed at Manveer to justify their anger?
Like, here, the VERRRRY top statement.
He definitely used "deal with it" way before Manveer came in. That's what people are mad about, plus some of the other comments he made that weren't directed at Manveer. Couple the #dealwithit comment above and the analogies + other statements directed at the *public* (not Manveer, none of the analogy statements have @ManveerHeir) and thus can be taken seriously.
That's why there was all that #dealwithit going around.
Also, stop shouting always online, it's rude!
lastflowers
Banned
Yeah dood, yeah.
"Every device now is always on. That's the world we live in. #dealwithit."
Now let me ask you: You speak of "the hive" and how there's no room for discourse with us--is #dealwithit an invitation for discourse? Is #dealwithit a shade of grey? It's in fact quite the opposite of either, isn't it?
He not only hinted at the existence of a highly controversial feature (that in reality may or may not exist) of his company's unannounced product, but did so in a very condescending manner which left NO ROOM for discussion. Are you going to keep pretending it was the gamer hive who ended the discussion before it even began?
Also, in response to your tweet, can we discard the pretense that the entire conversation was in jest with his bud? Because it wasn't. Manveer even called him out on the above, telling him, "...deal with it is a shitty reason." The backpedaling began once Manveer realized his friend was about to get some heat.
blitzcloud
Banned
Yeah, but then again that was not my point. My point is that you have to be posting in a recognizable manner of course. The fact that I left out such a detail is because I felt it was too obvious that I was talking about how a society based on freedom of speech is highly constrained when doing so as themselves (not anonymous).
And as I said before that one we've been talking about so much was made, I simply tried to explain that people are unaware that piling up all the leftovers from people that post as themselves you can probably get quite some information. And that some users seem to be making that detective work. Sometimes for bad, sometimes for good. That's obviously a subjective matter.
I was just voicing my discomfort towards the internet crowd attitude for the negative influence it can have. In my opinion, that attitude was present in this case.
Calling for Orth's head strikes me as extremely myopic. Presumably MS is heading in a shitty online-only direction and gamers are pissed by this anti-consumer diktat. Orth tweets defending this, essentially identifying his interests with his employer's, and becomes the focal point of all this gamer rage. MS fires Orth. So what, problem solved?
Honestly, who gives a shit what one Microsoft employee said to a colleague on twitter? We've seriously lost the plot if we think this is a serious issue worthy of our attention. Because what we're really talking about is one dude's snippy reply on the Internet. I'll admit the GAF response was entertaining, but it should probably have ended there.
Also, you can cost a man his job but the spin machine won't stop spinning, as evidenced by the recent GI.biz article. Then there are the fanboys who'll defend the cause just because.
Honestly, who gives a shit what one Microsoft employee said to a colleague on twitter? We've seriously lost the plot if we think this is a serious issue worthy of our attention. Because what we're really talking about is one dude's snippy reply on the Internet. I'll admit the GAF response was entertaining, but it should probably have ended there.
Also, you can cost a man his job but the spin machine won't stop spinning, as evidenced by the recent GI.biz article. Then there are the fanboys who'll defend the cause just because.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
Didn't have much respect for CliffyB, but if I did, I would have lost it by now.
Did he really just blame the Internet for Orth's idiotic missteps?
Did he really just call the people who don't like always-online pirates?
Yes and yes.
Did he really just blame the Internet for Orth's idiotic missteps?
Did he really just call the people who don't like always-online pirates?
Yes and yes.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
He was trolling his friend with the comments about area and such, but we have no idea if the ones that he posted before that were part of that discourse.
That, combined with the attaching his views under a 'microsoft creative director' on Twitter is what led to the synonymous nature of people 'attacking' Orth as a representative of their displeasure with his associated opinions, as on some level, he was repping MS when putting that stuff on his Twitter account.
Was there anger at him personally expressed? Yeah, and some of it did get out of hand. But while I didn't read the whole thread front to back, most of the stuff I saw regarding him personally here on GAF were the meme ridiculing, not vitriolic hatred for his being a human being but for certain ideas that he was associating with his former employer.
I do admit to there being a "good riddance" sentiment for his firing, and to that, I'm conflicted. As a consumer, I'm happy someone potentially espousing such practices isn't working on a device I'm potentially interested in, but as a human being, yeah, it does suck.
Personally? Sure. But if he's flying "MS creative Director" on his twitter, he ceases becoming a private individual and becomes an employee of a company (at least, in a lot of people's eyes), and represents their ideals. That whole "my opinions are my own" blurb right next to telling whatever company you work for isn't gonna hold water if you rock the boat hard enough and get caught up in the fallout.
Like a post a few posts above where a guy actually thinks Orth was attacking rural players who didn't live in big cities. I mean, come on! He. Was. Joking.
See above. Putting that shit on an MS associated Twitter account still causes damage to how people perceive Microsoft. Making a post explaining your joke afterwards doesn't forgive the fact that the information/feeling/etc...of the original post is what resonates with people.
Cliff also said that 'Unplugging entirely sometimes isn’t always a bad thing.' in regards to not being able to play games in rural/remote areas such as cabins, and insinuated that a lot of people who complain about always-online DRM are blatant pirates.
Wouldn't take his argument/opinion with a whole lot of weight, personally. Whole lot of strawman in there, at the very least.
davidjaffe
The Fucking MAN.
Okay, yes, there's a misinterpretation going on there, sure. So people are using the wrong comments he made as justification to be mad.
Would you, then, feel better at all if people used the actual comments that weren't directed at Manveer to justify their anger?
Like, here, the VERRRRY top statement.
He definitely used "deal with it" way before Manveer came in. That's what people are mad about, plus some of the other comments he made that weren't directed at Manveer. Couple the #dealwithit comment above and the analogies + other statements directed at the *public* (not Manveer, none of the analogy statements have @ManveerHeir) and thus can be taken seriously.
That's why there was all that #dealwithit going around.
Also, stop shouting always online, it's rude!
a- I think the 'you are typing in caps and thus your are shouting' is so stupid I do it to annoy folks who are actually ok allowing a totally manufactured rule with ZERO basis in ANYTHING close to reality to so easily seep into their lives
. b- I get you can disagree with his FIRST statement. I get Orth was even being smarmy with the #deawithit hash and deserved some push back. But I don't think- if we are talking about the pre-Manveer comments- what he said and how he said it deserved anything more than a spirited discourse and push back against the guy. But not this.
ProfessorMoran
Member
I am NOT lumping you all into anything.
You want to have an actual discussion about the facts? Cool.
You want to aid me in shifting my perspective and perhaps in doing so bring me over to your way of thinking? My mind is open.
But folks who want those things are not who Cliff was talking about. He was talking about a general sense of piling on in this case and in other cases. If you are not one of those folks who does that, GREAT! I love that!
But just because you are not, you must admit there IS a mob mentality among fans in general, be it games (XBOX VS PS), movies (STAR WARS V. STAR TREK) and SPORTS (if I was not a geek I could give you some team rivalries
Like a post a few posts above where a guy actually thinks Orth was attacking rural players who didn't live in big cities. I mean, come on! He. Was. Joking.
Are you trying to suggest that gaf is very dirty and mean?
Was Orth joking? Or just being fucking snarky?
That said, Orth put himself into this position, whether he was "piled on" or "tarepanda'ed". He's out of a job because he just wasn't smart enough to keep his damn mouth shut, it's his own damn fault.
When it concerns a very unpopular feature, well, everyone.
He was awesome during the Gears of War promotions, but lol, big misstep from his part with that post.
Wickerbasket
Member
Again though, there's really no parallels to 1984; in 1984 he'd be disappeared and you'd never hear from the guy again because he'd be dead. The guy had the freedom to say whatever he wanted, and the public had the freedom to express their distaste at that opinion. The problem in this situation, is that Adam's free speech most likely broke one of the NDAs he had signed for his job.
And again, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, none of that is relevant to this thread. The guy didn't lose his job over previous content he posted, he lost it for commenting on a heated rumour and being rude about it, against company policy. There was no detective work, he had his name and company in full view on his twitter.
3rdamention
Member
I wanted to make you sad.
Mission. Fuckin. Accomplished! YES!
Watch out the Internet will get you fired next ;-)
We didn't really do much more than this in the first place. Microsoft taking issue with it or it getting "big" in social media isn't anyone's fault at NeoGAF or Reddit or Twitter or anywhere else. Those are cumulative results, and the major one that people seem to be skimming over - the one that I think is probably the most responsible for Microsoft feeling forced to act - is the fact that the games media took it up as an official story. That too isn't our problem.