• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Showdown with Iran

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gustav

Banned
Don't know how recent this is, but Iran built an underground complex in which uranium is being enriched as we speak. The complex has been designed to be bombproof.

According to the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) around 350 centrifuges are in use right now, with another 174 that are currently under construction. The centrifuges can be used to enrich the uranium to over 20%. 3.5% enrichment are needed for nuclear power plants. According to Teheran officials the 20%+ enrichment is needed for cancer therapies in Iran.

Source: http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/0,1518,808337,00.html
 

GuessWho

Member
For those that are defending iran, with the excuse that, if the US can have wmds then so can iran. The difference is that iran has been publicly saying for years that israel needs to be wiped off the map.
 

Gustav

Banned
They do that for a while now. German links are always good for our mainly english speaking members. ^^

It's what I have. The gist is in my write down, though. Just want to assure you that I am not pulling these things out of my ass.

What's interesting is that the original article of the assassination has been replaced with this one I just posted. As if they're trying to justify the assassination.
 

mavs

Member
Don't know how recent this is, but Iran built an underground complex in which uranium is being enriched as we speak. The complex has been designed to be bombproof.

According to the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) around 350 centrifuges are in use right now, with another 174 that are currently under construction. The centrifuges can be used to enrich the uranium to over 20%. 3.5% enrichment are needed for nuclear power plants. According to Teheran officials the 20%+ enrichment is needed for cancer therapies in Iran.

Source: http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/0,1518,808337,00.html

The 20% enrichment target is probably for the production of this stuff.
 

Lerozz

Member
For those that are defending iran, with the excuse that, if the US can have wmds then so can iran. The difference is that iran has been publicly saying for years that israel needs to be wiped off the map.


"But you have to understand that Iran needs those only as deterrent to not become threatened by American or Israeli politics". Will be one of the answers, you can expect now.

Also: "Ahmadinejad was quoted out of context or did not per se say something like that". There are sources that state exactly that. Whereas he apparently still said something along the lines that Israel will be put out of existence. By whom or what ever that may be.

Anyways. I rather have one country less getting its hands on WMD than one more. Best to have none at all anywhere.

It's what I have. The gist is in my write down, though. Just want to assure you that I am not pulling these things out of my ass.

What's interesting is that the original article of the assassination has been replaced with this one I just posted. As if they're trying to justify the assassination.

The original article is still there. I also don't think that german media starts now to juggle reports to justify any kind of assassination on an apparently civilian person.
 
For those that are defending iran, with the excuse that, if the US can have wmds then so can iran. The difference is that iran has been publicly saying for years that israel needs to be wiped off the map.

its been saying that for decades, including the period when Israel was selling the regime weapons.


I dont understand how Iran building an enrichment facility in an area impervious to bombing is provocative, as William Hague says. So they should build their facilities in an area where they can more easily be bombed?
 

F#A#Oo

Banned
For those that are defending iran, with the excuse that, if the US can have wmds then so can iran. The difference is that iran has been publicly saying for years that israel needs to be wiped off the map.

And Israel has been trying to dismantle Iran for over 6 decades...and all things summed up it is THE most likely to use aggression in nuclear form...the very fact we have this thread is because of Israel's aggressive foreign policy not Iran's...
 

Al-ibn Kermit

Junior Member
"But you have to understand that Iran needs those only as deterrent to not become threatened by American or Israeli politics". Will be one of the answers, you can expect now.

Also: "Ahmadinejad was quoted out of context or did not per se say something like that". There are sources that state exactly that. Whereas he apparently still said something along the lines that Israel will be put out of existence. By whom or what ever that may be.

Anyways. I rather have one country less getting its hands on WMD than one more. Best to have none at all anywhere.



The original article is still there. I also don't think that german media starts now to juggle reports to justify any kind of assassination on an apparently civilian person.
The actual farsi sentence would be translated as Israel being forgotten in history. There was definitely an intentional mistranslation of his words for somebody to say that he wanted Israel wiped off the map.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

Guesswho, please don't assume that he ever said that once, much less several times.
 
The actual farsi sentence would be translated as Israel being forgotten in history. There was definitely an intentional mistranslation of his words for somebody to say that he wanted Israel wiped off the map.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel

Guesswho, please don't assume that he ever said that once, much less several times.

But it's all just a total sideshow. Israel was selling the Islamic Republic weapons at a time when the first Ayatollah, Ruhollah Khameini, was saying similarly anti-israel things. Israel's government knew then to divorce rhetoric from policy just as they do now. so even if Ahmadinejad did say it, it's nothing new.
 

Meadows

Banned
Don't know how recent this is, but Iran built an underground complex in which uranium is being enriched as we speak. The complex has been designed to be bombproof.

Don't want to get armchair general up in here, but I'm sure the USA's bunker busters (maybe even nuclear ones if it came to it), would penetrate.
 

GuessWho

Member
And Israel has been trying to dismantle Iran for over 6 decades...and all things summed up it is THE most likely to use aggression in nuclear form...the very fact we have this thread is because of Israel's aggressive foreign policy not Iran's...

classic Israel's fault quote.
 
Don't want to get armchair general up in here, but I'm sure the USA's bunker busters (maybe even nuclear ones if it came to it), would penetrate.

I believe this is too deep for bunker busters google translation of the german article seems to think there might be one that can. But otherwise their would have to be a nuke involved which I don't think anyone wants to happen.
 

Lerozz

Member
I believe this is too deep for bunker busters google translation of the german article seems to think there might be one that can. But otherwise their would have to be a nuke involved which I don't think anyone wants to happen.

The facilities are up to 90 meters below the surface (rock). America's strongest busters can crack less than 10 meters of concrete. The Massive Ordnance Penetrator, a 14 ton bomb, can only go as deep as 60 meters before it detonates. The only weapon dangerous enough for the facilities is the B61-11, a nuclear bunker buster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61_nuclear_bomb

Just confirming, el. :)
 

Rur0ni

Member
The facilities are up to 90 meters below the surface (rock). America's strongest busters can crack less than 10 meters of concrete. The Massive Ordnance Penetrator, a 14 ton bomb, can only go as deep as 60 meters before it detonates.
What happens when you have multiple bombing runs with this type of ordnance? Is the rock/ground loosened/moved so that you could potentially penetrate deeper after successive runs?
 
This situation with Iran's nuclear program is messy and complicated.


I hate seeing people getting killed or injured, as they have been with these car bombings killing Iran's top nuclear scientists, but on the other than I really do think it's a terrible idea for Iran to have a nuke, and it's quite likely this activity is going to dramatically slow down their progress on a bomb.


Iran is not going to start a war over this stuff.
 

[Nintex]

Member
This situation with Iran's nuclear program is messy and complicated.


I hate seeing people getting killed or injured, as they have been with these car bombings killing Iran's top nuclear scientists, but on the other than I really do think it's a terrible idea for Iran to have a nuke, and it's quite likely this activity is going to dramatically slow down their progress on a bomb.

I'm not sure who to blame, the easy route says Mossad but not long ago the Iranians kicked down a widespread uprising. It might also be a case of groups against the regime trying to take it down with actions such as these by forcing tensions between the EU/US/Israel and Iran. Israel is probably Iran's biggest 'enemy' but the regime also has enemies inside their borders.
 
[Nintex];34186503 said:
I'm not sure who to blame, the easy route says Mossad but not long ago the Iranians kicked down a widespread uprising. It might also be a case of groups against the regime trying to take it down with actions such as these by forcing tensions between the EU/US/Israel and Iran. Israel is probably Iran's biggest 'enemy' but the regime also has enemies inside their borders.

I have very little doubt that this is the result of Mossad and possibly CIA operatives. For them to know exactly who is a nuclear scientist and who is not, and to execute these operations as perfectly as they have, I doubt amateurs could be so efficient.

The simplicity of these attacks is so simple, and yet brilliant. The operatives get away so easily as the explosion is bound to distract almost everyone for a short while.
 

Casp0r

Banned
On the holocaust.

It's not illegal, the Nazis government are entitled to do what ever they like on their own soil within their own laws.

US build and hold more WMD's than any other country, illegal weapon program is it?

Hypocrites.

On the starvation of the entire civilian population.

It's not illegal, the N.Korean government are entitled to do what ever they like on their own soil within their own laws.

US build and hold more WMD's than any other country, illegal weapon program is it?

Hypocrites.

On the Nanking Massacre

It's not illegal, the Japanese government are entitled to do what ever they like on their own soil within their own laws.

US build and hold more WMD's than any other country, illegal weapon program is it?

Hypocrites.

On the Rwandan Massacres

It's not illegal, the Rwanda government are entitled to do what ever they like on their own soil within their own laws.

US build and hold more WMD's than any other country, illegal weapon program is it?

Hypocrites.

etc etc

Rinse and repeat for the rest of time and the rest of atrocities soon to come ... all thanks to you.
 
The facilities are up to 90 meters below the surface (rock). America's strongest busters can crack less than 10 meters of concrete. The Massive Ordnance Penetrator, a 14 ton bomb, can only go as deep as 60 meters before it detonates. The only weapon dangerous enough for the facilities is the B61-11, a nuclear bunker buster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61_nuclear_bomb

Just confirming, el. :)

The google translation made it seem to me that they're were two.

I would like to know how much that bomb actually works like a nuke.

Cause if it really is a nuke I'd have to say I'd probably highly side on the side of not wanting to use it at that point i'd rather have ground soliders (which pretty much completly against). That's opening a can of worms that I don't want to see opened.


It's not illegal, the Iranian government are entitled to do what ever they like on their own soil within their own laws.
So international law means nothing? Ok never want to see you critize another country again. Torture, violations of human rights, violations of treaties are all ok if their laws allow it.
 
I don't see how this can be painted as anything other than state-sponsored terrorism (the grim question being, which state?). You can't conceivably murder every scientist in the country or destroy all of the information they've gathered on the process. Modern science does not revolve around individuals like that. These attacks are designed to spread fear amongst Iran's scientific community so that no one will follow in their footsteps.

I can only hope and pray that the US government was not involved.

Edit:

Actually, based on these quotes:

Israel does not normally comment on such claims. However, Brig. Gen. Yoav Mordechai, a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), said on his Facebook page Wednesday: "I have no idea who targeted the Iranian scientist but I certainly don't shed a tear."

U.S. State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said the United States had seen the reports of "an apparent bombing" and that it condemned "any assassination or attack on an innocent person."

I have a pretty good idea who's firing shots.
 

Pollux

Member
CHEEZMO™;34189836 said:
Where does international law stand on assassination?

International law doesn't really exist. And if people think otherwise then they are hopelessly naive. "International Law" is, for the most part, whatever Americans and Western Europeans want it to be.

So, because it is in America's best interest to assassinate people then that's just fine and you will never see an American charged under international law for that assassination. If someone does that and it goes against American interests, then there is a good chance that they will be condemned for violating "international law" or face some set of sanctions or something to that effect.

When it comes to international relations between states stop looking at it through the lens of morality. Morality doesn't exist in foreign policy, only power and national interests. America has power, and is thus able to exert it's will on other states whether that exertion is "legal" or not.

You may not like it but that doesn't change the fact that nobody in the West is going to oppose the US on Iran. The West has much more to gain, i.e. their interests are with the US, by siding with the US than by sticking up for Iran.

The interjection of morality and values into international relations causes reckless commitments and diplomatic rigidity as states are then unable to shift with the positions that best suit their interests.
 
People act like one of the sides is not guilty...

They both do a lot of bad stuff, but as a neutral member (Brazilian) i´ll say this: i rather have the USA as the world´s police than some batshit crazy dictator/totalirism loving country (Iran, China, Pakistan).

If the world is at a point where we would have to choose our "rulers" that´s what i would say.

I guess the answer of this debacle will tell us if the world ends on 2012 or not.
 

Ikael

Member
The whole "Iran has say menacing and scary stuff regarding Israel" as an argument powerful enough to poke a hornest nest with their own dicks is stupid. Even assuming that the traduction was accurate, in context, yadda, yadda: it means shit. Repressive regimes are always talking crap and in desperate need of an external boogeyman in order to rally their country behind them.

North Korea have been talking way more idiotic and murderous stuff directed towards the US itself (destruction and apocalytic menaces included) and the result of that: nothing. Nada. Zero. Zip. And they have a nuclear bomb and a way more bloodier and crazy leader than Iran too.

Thast's because despotic regimes main objetive is, above all, to preserve their own regime. For all their rethoric, they don't have a "higher purpouse", like the vast majorityh of politicians. They want to be kept in power, in order to be kept in power, religious fanatism nonwithstanding (which BTW, there are a metric ton of non - religious forces with their share of power in Iran, way more than in other "friendly" regimes like, say Saudi Arabia).

People act like one of the sides is not guilty...

There are two sides on this: people whoe seriouysly want a showdown between the US and Iran, and people who are sane. They inhabit both US and Iran, mind you.
 
blockbuster op-ed from a former IAEA director
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-11/iran-nuclear-weapons-charge-is-no-slam-dunk-commentary-by-robert-kelley.html

The conflict between Iran and the West just keeps heating up, with the Iranians announcing over the weekend that they have begun to enrich uranium at a second major facility, a well-defended site outside the city of Qom.
Given the high stakes, it’s valuable to take another look at the main source of the tension: Iran’s nuclear-weapons program. That this enterprise is active is widely considered a given in the U.S. In fact, the evidence, contained in a November report of the International Atomic Energy Agency, is sketchy. And the way the data have been presented produces a sickly sense of deja vu.
I am speaking up about this now because, as a member of the IAEA’s Iraq Action Team in 2003, I learned firsthand how withholding the facts can lead to bloodshed. Having known the details then, though I was not allowed to speak, I feel a certain shared responsibility for the war that killed more than 4,000 Americans and more than 100,000 Iraqis. A private citizen today, I hope to help ensure the facts are clear before the U.S. takes further steps that could lead, intentionally or otherwise, to a new conflagration, this time in Iran.
It’s accepted that Iran at one time had a nuclear-weapons program. The country’s enormous investment in a secret underground uranium-enrichment complex in the city of Natanz is essentially proof of clandestine intentions. The military plutonium-production reactor in Arak is yet another indicator.
However, it must be remembered that in the 2007 National Intelligence Estimate, U.S. agencies concluded that Iran halted its nuclear-arms program in 2003 under international pressure. It’s rare for intelligence officials to determine that they have sufficient evidence to say a program has ended, so their information presumably was very good. Similarly, until this year, the IAEA has consistently reported that it had no information suggesting Iran had a nuclear-weapons program after 2004.
So the issue is not whether there is evidence of such a program, but whether there is evidence that it was restarted after being shut down in 2003.

The Nov. 8, 2011, report of the IAEA, under the leadership of Director General Yukiya Amano, is long on the former and very short on the latter. In the 24-page document, intended for a restricted distribution but widely available on the Internet, all but three of the items that were offered as proof of a possible nuclear-arms program are either undated or refer to events before 2004. The agency spends about 96 percent of a 14- page annex reprising what was already known: that at one time there were military dimensions to Iran’s nuclear program.
Three Indications
What about the three indications that the arms project may have been reactivated?
Two of the three are attributed only to two member states, so the sourcing is impossible to evaluate. In addition, their validity is called into question by the agency’s handling of the third piece of evidence.
That evidence, according to the IAEA, tells us Iran embarked on a four-year program, starting around 2006, to validate the design of a device to produce a burst of neutrons that could initiate a fission chain reaction. Though I cannot say for sure what source the agency is relying on, I can say for certain that this project was earlier at the center of what appeared to be a misinformation campaign.
In 2009, the IAEA received a two-page document, purporting to come from Iran, describing this same alleged work. Mohamed ElBaradei, who was then the agency’s director general, rejected the information because there was no chain of custody for the paper, no clear source, document markings, date of issue or anything else that could establish its authenticity. What’s more, the document contained style errors, suggesting the author was not a native Farsi speaker. It appeared to have been typed using an Arabic, rather than a Farsi, word-processing program. When ElBaradei put the document in the trash heap, the U.K.’s Times newspaper published it.

This episode had suspicious similarities to a previous case that proved definitively to be a hoax. In 1995, the IAEA received several documents from the Sunday Times, a sister paper to the Times, purporting to show that Iraq had resumed its nuclear-weapons program in spite of all evidence to the contrary. The IAEA quickly determined that the documents were elaborate forgeries. There were mistakes in formatting the documents’ markings, classification and dates, and many errors in language and style indicated the author’s first language was something other than Arabic or Farsi. Inspections in Iraq later in 1995 confirmed incontrovertibly that there had been no reconstitution of the Iraqi nuclear program.
Today’s Regrets
I regret now that ElBaradei did not speak out more vehemently, before the U.S. went to war, about the 1995 faked documents, additional forgeries provided to the agency in 2003 and other falsifications. A good man, he had been an international lawyer with years of experience dealing with half- truths and prevarications. But he was trapped between telling the whole story and overtly insulting the U.S., which supplied 25 percent of the IAEA’s funding.
For example, ElBaradei labeled documents provided to the IAEA about Iraq’s attempts to acquire uranium from Africa “not authentic.” A better description would have been “blatant and amateurish forgeries.” He provided evidence that aluminum tubes the U.S. said were for nuclear centrifuges were actually for rockets. But he did not supply the supporting engineering details publicly. The truth was lost in the U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell’s scandalous detailing of Iraq’s supposed weapons of mass destruction, which was wrong in almost every respect.

ElBaradei’s successor also has fallen short by failing to note in his report the earlier doubts that Iran was continuing to develop a neutron-producing device. If Amano has found new reasons to overlook the many questionable aspects of this story, he should present them. Given past doubts about the episode, the agency’s reporting on it should be above reproach.
When it comes to accurately accounting for potential diversions of nuclear materials, the IAEA’s main mission, the agency has gone about its work with precision. It needs to be just as exacting when it delves into allegations about Iran’s weapons intentions.
I should be clear: Iran deserves tough scrutiny. It claims to have given up its nuclear-weapons ambitions, yet repeatedly acts as if it has something to hide. I am a skeptic; I suspect the Iranians may have an ongoing weaponization program. And the uncertainty must be resolved.
At the same time, we should not again be held hostage to forgeries and the spinning of data to make the worst case. If Iran is developing nuclear weapons, let it be proved through the analysis of current, solid information -- not recycled, discredited data. If there is to be a war with Iran, let’s not have a repeat, afterward, of the anguished articles and books from officials who kept their misgivings to themselves. Let’s get all the facts on the table now.

(Robert Kelley, a nuclear engineer, was a director at the IAEA, where he worked for nine years. He gained his weapons expertise over 30 years at the University of California’s nuclear-weapons laboratories. The opinions expressed are his own.)
 

jorma

is now taking requests
I can only hope and pray that the US government was not involved.

Edit:

Actually, based on these quotes:





I have a pretty good idea who's firing shots.

It didnt really sound like the Nuland person was condemning this particular assassination. Presumably you are not innocent if you are an Iranian nuclear scientist.
 

Cromat

Member
That scientist was a military target. I think it's better to have sabotage and assassinations to buy time instead of an all-out war.
 
So says the IAEA found 3 reasons why Iran might have restarted its program. Says one sounds like another that was wrong and ignores the other two "they come from two member states. " and then later states he thinks Iran might have a weaponization program and says they are acting like they have something to hide....

How is that a blockbuster op-ed. He's asking for prudence. That's fine and I think most people share that. But he's not saying Iran's program is peaceful and they're just getting bullied.

Also just a question to those that think Iran's program is peaceful while at the same time the US and mossad are killing their scientists.. Say for example they are (I don't know) wouldn't that kind of say that the US or Israel have pretty good access to the program? And that their intelligence might be good. Or are you of the persuasion that the USA and Israel and the EU just wants war for the hell of it
 

Cromat

Member
How about neither.

You're assuming that letting Iran have nuclear weapons wouldn't result in people dying or suffering, an assumption that Western leaders appear to be questioning.

To be clear, I am against attacking Iran, but unlike many of the people here I don't think Iran having nuclear weapons is in any way a good or desirable thing. If it's prevented without starting full war I'd consider that a positive outcome.
 

Globox_82

Banned
I am not siding with Iran, or any other radically run Muslim country. I don't dislike them, I think that is their problem, if it is a problem at all.

Iran doesn't have nuclear bombs, there is no proof of it. Actually all proof points that there is no weapon planned at this stage.

Israel has a couple of hundred nuclear bombs, USA is the only country to have used them on some other country (second bomb was an extra not needed at all, Japan was done at that point, but that is different topic) and now all of a sudden these two countries have higher moral ground?

Maybe Israel should be an example and get rid of theirs first. It's silly to think that Iran would even dare to touch Israel. There would be such retaliation from USA and EU like you would never believe.

I honestly think confrontation with Iran will lead to WW3. Iran is not Iraq. Ca 80 million people in Iran. Seriously enough with pointless wars. Americans need to elect someone who doesn't do what lobbyist tell him to do, and who isn't war monger.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
That scientist was a military target. I think it's better to have sabotage and assassinations to buy time instead of an all-out war.

are scientists working in whatever country you live in valid military targets as well? or is this just applicable on Iranian scientists?
 

Cromat

Member
are scientists working in whatever country you live in valid military targets as well? or is this just applicable on Iranian scientists?

If they are working on a secret government-funded weapons project, then yes they are.
The guys working at DARPA for example are working for the military. They are a military target.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom