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[March Climber]

Thought this was an interesting video.

NDT talks about the potential cause and effect of what happens when scientists lose funding and then their scientific endeavors becoming unsustainable, thus some higher tier scientists from the U.S. start leaving because they're slowly being poached by other countries. He also talks about how that has an echo effect on U.S.'s health, wealth, and security, and how it can cause a slow bleeding effect for the United States' future when it comes to staying cutting edge in science and tech, which eventually causes an intellectual vacuum for the country because each form of science needs the other to all advance together.

He also says if this continues other countries will be impressing the U.S. more and more with their scientific creations, much like how the U.S. used to impress other countries in the past.

What do you guys think could be the path forward for science in the U.S.?

 

[cormack12]

I would replace science with magic.

 

[KyoZz]

Funny because here in France we had headlines a few months ago stating "Why are our scientist leaving our country for the USA".

Literally on the French government website: https://questions.assemblee-nationale.fr/q17/17-14749QE.htm

This is particularly worrying for the technology sector, which is experiencing a massive exodus to California. Also, given the investment guarantees that Trump extracted from Europe for the coming years, you'll be fine.

 

[DreamcastSkies]

I suspect it's due to "academia" pushing out critical thought and discussion of differing perspectives/views along with institutional corruption.

 

[Paltheos]

Not particularly positive about the state of scientific research here, considering all the funding cuts from the federal government these past couple years.

Funny because here in France we had headlines a few months ago stating "Why are our scientist leaving our country for the USA".

Literally on the French government website: https://questions.assemblee-nationale.fr/q17/17-14749QE.htm

This is particularly worrying for the technology sector, which is experiencing a massive exodus to California. Also, given the investment guarantees that Trump extracted from Europe for the coming years, you'll be fine.

It... does not? Per google translate:

Mr. Frédéric Weber draws the attention of the Minister of Labour and Solidarity to the persistent phenomenon of "brain drain," which threatens France's economic competitiveness and capacity for innovation. The emigration of highly qualified individuals—particularly in the fields of research, information technology, finance, and healthcare—is a growing concern. According to the Directorate General of the Treasury, 6% of higher education graduates born in France were residing in another OECD country in 2015–2016, compared to 2% of those with lower levels of education. In 2021, 106,000 French students were enrolled in degree programs abroad. Meanwhile, the consular register listed 1.74 million registered French citizens at the end of 2023, with an estimated total of 2.5 million nationals living abroad, a significant proportion of whom are highly qualified. This phenomenon is driven by more attractive working conditions abroad, such as higher salaries, state-of-the-art infrastructure, professional recognition, and more robust research funding. In France, recurring obstacles include a tax burden perceived as heavy, limited career prospects for recent graduates, and complex bureaucracy. Despite measures such as the Research Programming Law (2021–2030) and the "Talent Passport" scheme, the loss of human capital remains a cause for concern. Although France invests nearly €32 billion annually in higher education, this outflow undermines the return on investment and deprives the country of strategic skills. Consequently, he asks the Minister to provide up-to-date data on the current scale of this phenomenon. Furthermore, he requests details regarding concrete measures envisaged to retain trained talent and boost the country's attractiveness in strategic sectors.

It does talk about movement of higher education graduates to other OECD countries (of which there are 38, apparently) but does not specify. The United States is not mentioned on the page.

 

[KyoZz]

Not particularly positive about the state of scientific research here, considering all the funding cuts from the federal government these past couple years.
It... does not? Per google translate:
It does talk about movement of higher education graduates to other OECD countries (of which there are 38, apparently) but does not specify. The United States is not mentioned on the page.

To be precise, I was referring to a report that appeared on TF1's 8pm news a few months ago. I know that this link does not specifically refer to the United States, but it mainly served to contextualize the fact that this "brain drain" phenomenon seems to be happening everywhere and is not specific to current USA.

I might be wrong tho.

 

[DKehoe]

Funny because here in France we had headlines a few months ago stating "Why are our scientist leaving our country for the USA".

Literally on the French government website: https://questions.assemblee-nationale.fr/q17/17-14749QE.htm

This is particularly worrying for the technology sector, which is experiencing a massive exodus to California. Also, given the investment guarantees that Trump extracted from Europe for the coming years, you'll be fine.

Clearly all the scientists are disappearing over the Atlantic Ocean.

 

[Quasicat]

I thought this had to do with the scientists that were being murdered earlier this year.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/the-...cted-to-a-similar-top-secret-program.1695859/

 

[YCoCg]

America doesn't want answer and fixes, it's too corrupt at the top. That's why China is doing all the cool shit now but America refuses to acknowledge it because "CHY-NA"

 

[Meicyn]

I'm good friends with a chemical scientist/published author here in my area and he frequently laments the exiting of so many brilliant minds leaving the country for China. We were talking about this again just a few days ago. He's of the perspective that it will take many years, perhaps even beyond a decade to undo the damage to research focused fields assuming we started reversing course right now. Meanwhile China continues accelerating its move forward. Our dismal fiscal situation with the record-breaking debt-to-GDP ratio is only exacerbating the situation.

As always, it comes down to politics. Won't go any further for established reasons.

 

[moogman]

When mRNA vaccines were cancelled by the US government I thought this could happen and that's not the only anti-science decision. Those scientists will move somewhere else rather than stop researching something pretty significant. It's probably only temporary until grants are reinstated after the current administration though.

 

[nush]

That's why China is doing all the cool shit now

Loads of that is fake just for social media shares. China can only copy, steal and fake.

 

[MayauMiao]

I'm good friends with a chemical scientist/published author here in my area and he frequently laments the exiting of so many brilliant minds leaving the country for China. We were talking about this again just a few days ago. He's of the perspective that it will take many years, perhaps even beyond a decade to undo the damage to research focused fields assuming we started reversing course right now. Meanwhile China continues accelerating its move forward. Our dismal fiscal situation with the record-breaking debt-to-GDP ratio is only exacerbating the situation.

As always, it comes down to politics. Won't go any further for established reasons.

You just have to look at how they are handling high speed rail.






In China,

 

[Unknown?]

America doesn't want answer and fixes, it's too corrupt at the top. That's why China is doing all the cool shit now but America refuses to acknowledge it because "CHY-NA"

Yeah, they're a bastion purity. No corruption in China.

 

[YCoCg]

Yeah, they're a bastion purity. No corruption in China.

Nobody is saying they're pure, but they are focused on pushing their scientists to do crazy things and not stifling them. That's something America doesn't want for some "reason".

 

[Sohurmk833]

What's the definition of a scientist though? I have the feeling that a lot of people that don't really do scientific research in the classic sense are called scientists these days.

 

[poodaddy]

What's the definition of a scientist though? I have the feeling that a lot of people that don't really do scientific research in the classic sense are called scientists these days.

This, or sometimes the research is not producing results that are useful in any way, they're merely research for the sake of research.

I have a friend whose job essentially boils, (boiled I guess, she was laid off), down to exposing different species of insects to different botanical extracts, (definitely science), and exposing different breeds of mice to different chemical agents to see how they die, (science, yes....but I'm not a fan of absolutely any form of research that utilizes mammalian testing, particularly when it's cruel like that), but not one bit of her research ever went to anything useful; it was all just producing irrelevant data that a pest control company down in Florida would often cite for shareholders, but the formulae had nothing to do with her research up in Maine whatsoever lol, they just had her doing it so that they could legally claim that they were always conducting forward, progressive, (ha), cutting edge research in the field....and when the economy took even the slightest dip, she was promptly laid off as she didn't really do anything of worth for the company. She was essentially a token employee who produced bunk science for a well paying job, and though
she was laid off she still tells everyone she's a scientist despite being unemployed for years -_-.

Not all "science" in this country is worth keeping funded....a lot of it is quiet cruel and sick. Look into how scientists utilize beagles in their studies if you want to be horrified to tears.

 

[March Climber]

Yeah, they're a bastion purity. No corruption in China.

"I think X looks pretty cool"
"So that means you hate Y? X all the way huh?"

I hope one day the internet collectively reaches a point where this stops happening.

 

[kpopSuperstar]

America, and to some extent Europe, is fat and lazy and struggles to work 8 hours a day.

China and the poorer countries have people working 12 hours/6 days a week. It breeds a whole different mentality and harder people.

It's the fast food, ease-of-living, lazy morals, acceptance of flaws, and the overall assumption that things will always work out that's gonna crack ya. Back in the day, they fought and worked for everything and it made them harder and smarter than the declining slobs of the modern westerner.

 

[Nocty]

America, and to some extent Europe, is fat and lazy and struggles to work 8 hours a day.

China and the poorer countries have people working 12 hours/6 days a week. It breeds a whole different mentality and harder people.

It's the fast food, ease-of-living, lazy morals, acceptance of flaws, and the overall assumption that things will always work out that's gonna crack ya. Back in the day, they fought and worked for everything and it made them harder and smarter than the declining slobs of the modern westerner.

yeah and exactly why the AI agent workforce is going to take over 90% of jobs soon. What the governments of the world decide to do with the 7 billion useless eaters at that point should ring alarm bells. We will all become meat for endless wars over the remaining resources of this hellscape we have made,

 

[Kenneth Haight]

yeah and exactly why the AI agent workforce is going to take over 90% of jobs soon. What the governments of the world decide to do with the 7 billion useless eaters at that point should ring alarm bells. We will all become meat for endless wars over the remaining resources of this hellscape we have made,

 

[ReBurn]

"I think X looks pretty cool"
"So that means you hate Y? X all the way huh?"

I hope one day the internet collectively reaches a point where this stops happening.

Unfortunately the anonymity amplifies the autism.

 

[nush]

You just have to look at how they are handling high speed rail.






In China,

That South China Morning post basically snitches on itself. Labor is cheap and plentiful, there's much less regulation and that also means safety. Anyway, I'm not going further as it's off topic. I lived in China for many years, I had a front row seat to how things actually function.

 

[kittoo]

From outside, it always seemed like getting the brightest minds of other countries and enabling them was a huge advantage and a good policy for the US, and a key reason why US led the world in scientific frontier. Not talking about H1B but rather universities, research and scientific jobs. Brain drain was a huge concern here for quite some time.

 

[Unknown?]

"I think X looks pretty cool"
"So that means you hate Y? X all the way huh?"

I hope one day the internet collectively reaches a point where this stops happening.

His point was way too simplistic to explain what brought him to his conclusion. In fact it didn't support any evidence for the current events. You read into it however you want though.

 

[newtypepilot]

That South China Morning post basically snitches on itself. Labor is cheap and plentiful, there's much less regulation and that also means safety. Anyway, I'm not going further as it's off topic. I lived in China for many years, I had a front row seat to how things actually function.

let's not pretend america is good with regulations and safety. Pfizer building anyone?

China is far from perfect but unlike the US, it is not bogged down by red tape or interference from lobbyists.. If the central government sets out to do something, it'll do it. Just look at their EVs, which are way ahead than the rest of the world.

 

[Mistake]

Hard to do science when it's so ideologically captured to a point where you won't get funding for giving the "wrong" answer. Tbh it's been happening for a while and now I'd say things are at a boiling point. Add it to the list of enshitification. Here's somewhat of an example

let's not pretend america is good with regulations and safety. Pfizer building anyone?

China is far from perfect but unlike the US, it is not bogged down by red tape or interference from lobbyists.. If the central government sets out to do something, it'll do it. Just look at their EVs, which are way ahead than the rest of the world.

While china isn't fully communist atm, more like 30% if I had to guess, this is why it works. When the government wants to do something, they can simply throw money in that direction. Xiamen got turned into a mega city while I was there because of it. Problem is though, when things go to hell, it happens just as fast.

 

[Meicyn]

You just have to look at how they are handling high speed rail.






In China,

I genuinely wish there were better rail options stateside. I hate flying, but Amtrak is frustrating because delays are the standard.

 

[rm082e]

You don't need science when you have FREEDOM!!!!