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Difficulty and engagement dynamics

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I find that something often irritating me with games these days is finding something with the right balance of challenge and engagement. Often you are left with a choice like this:

Game is "too hard" (in quotes because it isn't about raw challenge):
-Dying more easily is what many people focus on and assume the singular thing you have a problem with if you dislike the difficulty ("get good")
-Many added obstructions, walkbacks, limited resources/economy to simply make it more tedious rather than engaging and also more time-consuming, which is often gatekeeping against parents and other persons with limited windows for gaming
-Some unforgiving elements like extremely fast QTEs so you end up repeating moments that were supposed to be cinematic/dramatic and it has the opposite effect of being more engrossing at key story moments
-Bullet sponge enemies to make it more tedious and ruins the sense that your hero character is capable of giving more than papercuts, often contrasting greatly from their performance in cutscenes
-Forced gauntlets of multiple fights that would before be broken up, making it more tedious as well as more demanding on your free time
-More limited capabilities of your character, making the battles less dynamic and more reliant on footsies and patience for lesser strikes in small pockets rather than cooler fights and combos

Game is too easy:
-Almost impossible to die, many people focusing on this being what makes the experience boring and bad, yet…
-Overbearing tutorials that are often forced, breaking up the experience of freely playing the game, often feeling condescending
-Enemies die in a flash so you don't get to engage with their moves (because they rarely attack) or use your own (especially parries or dodging), making the tutorials even more pointless
-Sometimes neuters the coolest things like ultimate moves and summons because they are dependent on meters that don't build up because the fight ends too fast
-Items/economy/collecting/status effects become a completely pointless waste of time because they are never used as base kit attacks win just fine (Contrast: TotK is a brilliant example of designing items that aren't required but often used)
-If the gameplay design involves teamwork and strategy, you usually just blast though on the power of your character and never really experience this element
-For some reason puzzles get dumbed down too so even non-combat is less engaging to the point of feeling patronizing

From these you can see "difficulty" involves a lot more than being easy to die or not. It is well possible to design a game where you don't die in 3 hits yet the battles aren't 30 minutes long of bullet sponge tedium, yet also aren't over before you have even had a chance to experience the engaging gameplay mechanics. Some devs are finding this balance (I think Pragmata did very well), yet I find that others may not try as hard to balance it because they are more cognizant of the fact that many different types of players at different capability levels are engaging with their game and they want it to be enjoyable for all. I just think the way they often handle difficulty levels is lazy and ruins the experience on one end or the other with the way things are tuned.

That said, I do think there should be options for people who are not only at different levels of their familiarity with videogames, but even those who may have different disabilities. There are people with motor skill issues from degenerative diseases and injuries, those with cognitive limitations or particularities for various reasons, those with visual impairments or sensitivities, and I think it is good to design toggles that allow for these people to still engage with a game that would have otherwise been inaccessible to them. I think Mina the Hollower and modern Doom games are a pretty good example of making these sorts of things available.

Have you noticed this distinction between difficulty and gameplay engagement, how they are different things yet impact upon each other?
 
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Personally, i take unfair, bullshit challenge over no challenge.

One can still be fun to overcome and make progression and exploration even more worthy, also force you do use all the elements of a battle system, the other is only good if you suck at videogames and only want power fantasy and press button to look cool.

Almost no game has actually balanced difficulty modes, you better give up any hope that the situation is gonna change anytime soon.
 
I just think the way they often handle difficulty levels is lazy and ruins the experience on one end or the other with the way things are tuned.
This is how it should be done, let everyone play the way they want but it needs resources/time that not every studio have.

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I'd rather suffer with being very difficult, than have no challenge at all. If people find a game too difficult then they have the option to go play something else.
A game doesn't have to be made for everyone. A game made for everyone is a game made for no one.
 
I'd rather suffer with being very difficult, than have no challenge at all. If people find a game too difficult then they have the option to go play something else.
A game doesn't have to be made for everyone. A game made for everyone is a game made for no one.
You can also add difficulty to any game with weird button layouts, playing with one hand or whatever...

Options have never been bad. From the ground up bad design can't be helped with options though.

I generally most struggle with pointlessly long and just huge games. Overstaying their welcome ruins a lot of AAA games. Repetitive, lost urgency, barely noticable story arcs, boring AI like world design ... ugh. Open worlds are pratically always just giant filler content games and quest marker collectathons. And without those convenience stuff, become actually impossible to play without taking notes yourself. GTA and Skyrim have pushed game design into a terrible direction in way too many games. Even Souls stuff I kinda dislike isn't that bad overall. Its fans are just obnoxious in their close mindedness.
 
I like what Fromsoft/soulslikes do — the whole game is tuned to a set difficulty, the whole design and Q/A is extensively tested and polished for this.

This makes the game uniform and everyone gets to experience the same joy or frustration.
 
Your points are good, but we also need to talk about threat and the enemy AI problem. Bullet sponge enemies exist because enemies are too dumb to pose a real threat. Aimbot enemies like we had in old school fps were as frustrating as the bullet sponge enemy groups that just stand in front of you and never try to flank. Those are two bad solutions to the same problem.

Anyway the one very good trend we have nowdays is giving you options to make up your own difficulty level. This is the way to go, along with better coding of enemy behavior.
 
On PC side for many games there are mods that can either decrease or increase difficulty which can help a lot with frustration (hey RDR2 looting).
 
If a game is offline (or the offline part does not clash with the online part), there is NO REASON to have multiple difficulty settings or at least a way to make a game easier/harder.
 
It all boils down to bad or good game design.

When a game has excellent gameplay /mechanics it motivates players to improve and overcome any annoyance in their way.

When you start a new fresh game on Silksong after beating it, you realize it was never hard at all. It was about learning its intricacies and mastering controls. You don't need any power-up or cheat to breeze through it once you have figured things out. That's great game design.

This is how it should be done, let everyone play the way they want but it needs resources/time that not every studio have.

I'm on the opposite shore. This detracts completely from the vision devs had for the game and at the end of the day it trivializes the experience.

The right way to do it like MIO: Missing in Orbit. They give you three cheats that you can activate/deactivate at will, cheats that can be unlocked later on and smooth things over but never making it to easy.
 
It all boils down to bad or good game design.

When a game has excellent gameplay /mechanics it motivates players to improve and overcome any annoyance in their way.

When you start a new fresh game on Silksong after beating it, you realize it was never hard at all. It was about learning its intricacies and mastering controls. You don't need any power-up or cheat to breeze through it once you have figured things out. That's great game design.
I strongly disagree in the case of Silksong. It plays extremely heavily into the walkbacks, obstruction, gauntlets, etc. Absolutely no respect for your time. One could say the "learning the mechanics is the experience" thing about Elden Ring as well, except in Elden Ring the walkbacks are at a minimum and the challenges are less linear gatekeeping situations and more an array of diverse options. To be about the mechanics you need to allow consistent engagement with the mechanics, and Silksong put in waaaay too much pointless trouble between you and reattempts at the latest part you are working through. I think if you can get right back into engagement with your present challenge (Super Meat Boy was one of the first examples of this modern style) it is a joy and I will beat my head against that wall for hours. However if you fill up a lot of the time with padding and obstruction, or even worse where in some games you have to build yourself back up to normal status to have a fair reattempt, it is immensely annoying and ruins it completely.

Yea no fam. I'm playing for the story. The world is a challenge enough.
I am feeling this more these days, yet I still want the gameplay to be engaging, not just mash basic attack. You can have engaging design without it destroying you, yet fewer and fewer developers bother anymore. The easier modes end up disengaging so it's like mindless spam that just wastes time between the story scenes. Many RPGs even have auto-battle specifically because it has become so disengaged.
 
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We need a shop-vac to suck the sand out of the vaginas around here.

Seems that horrible disease called "sandicusvagitus" has hit again and we need difficulty sliders for everyone and not let the vision of the developers come through. Horrible little problem with people and weakness of not overcoming anything difficult.

I'm running up to Lowe's to see if I can get a deal on an XL shop-vac, I'll report back.
 
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We need a shop-vac to suck the sand out of the vaginas around here.

Seems that horrible disease called "sandicusvagitus" has hit again and we need difficulty sliders for everyone and not let the vision of the developers come through. Horrible little problem with people and weakness of not overcoming anything difficult.

I'm running up to Lowe's to see if I can get a deal on an XL shop-vac, I'll report back.
I recognize your perspective on the "difficulty" aspect of the discussion. Any thoughts on the "shitty design elements" part of the discussion, which is completely distinct from simply being hard, the difference between the two being the point of the topic?

On PC side for many games there are mods that can either decrease or increase difficulty which can help a lot with frustration (hey RDR2 looting).
Like when I modded Witcher 3 only to eliminate encumbrance because ain't nobody got time for that. Total godsend. One of the great things about PC.
 
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"Bullet sponge enemies to make it more tedious and ruins the sense that your hero character is capable of giving more than papercuts"

I'm near the end of Final Fantasy XVI and I'm over-leveled with the best equipment and it still feels like this. I wish this game had sliders so badly. An across the board 25% reduction in enemy health would greatly improve the gameplay. I'm not even talking about difficulty. They just take too long to kill while also not being too much of a threat. I would have also liked sliders in Doom Eternal to increase max ammo and weapon durability in Breath of the Wild by about 15% in both games.

All three of these games mentioned give me a "This is great! But this part is annoying!" feeling. It bothers me more because it feels like unrealized potential. Imagine a Breath of Fire 2 that wasn't always so in want of a double xp and zenny hack...
 
I recognize your perspective on the "difficulty" aspect of the discussion. Any thoughts on the "shitty design elements" part of the discussion, which is completely distinct from simply being hard, the difference between the two being the point of the topic?
No, not really. Play the game or not and quit complaining about everything.

I got waxed for years on Silver Surfer, Ghosts and Goblins, etc.

Just last night, this warlock bitch in the deep subterranean chalice dungeons kept flaming me and after three hours and a touch past midnight, I gave in. I'm here today to go back after that cheating little fire-spewing turd. Damn you Bloodborne, but I love the 60 FPS.

No need for a topic that has been discussed month on month since the beginning of humanity.
 
I like what Fromsoft/soulslikes do — the whole game is tuned to a set difficulty, the whole design and Q/A is extensively tested and polished for this.

This makes the game uniform and everyone gets to experience the same joy or frustration.
The exakt opposite is the case since everyone has a different threshold for what they find challenging and what is just frustrating. One design fits all, is just a terrible mindset. Some might even think it is too easy and would want all their armor stats lower... oh wait those usually make the videos where they play it on a dance mat and blind folded or some stupid nonsense. A set difficulty is just lazy design.

If uniformity would work schools could uniformly push out doctors, lawyers, IT specialists, but all we can do is make a few of those and the rest will just be average worker bees.
 
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