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[Bojji]

Isnt the cpu in the series s slightly better than hobo ps5?

Basically the same.

 

[SlimySnake]

Open World game focus + no real budget.

They're very much the poster child for not building modern games using $200m-250m+ budgets, but my biggest criticism of them is two fold:

1. Almost zero technical uplift since GoT, which itself was visually dated for a PS4 game

2. If you're trying to remain economical with art production costs, can't you focus your energy on investing into procedural content pipelines? Rather than inconsistent & shit, low quality textures+models, either use high quality procedural ones and focus your artist time on modelling higher quality poly meshes? Or explore proc-gen on the meshes too?

Honestly though, I feel the best thing Sucker Punch could have done to manage costs whilst pushing up the quality bar on content, would have been to simply port all of their game assets over the UE5 and built from there.

Even with fully baked GI + nanite assets, they'd have ended up with a much better looking sequel, and UE5 does a ton for them in terms of Metahuman + very high quality animation rigs and proc-animation retargeting for much lower production cost/effort.

Yep. I get that they had a $60 million budget, but they also had 5.5 years and a full studio. What did those programmers and artists do for those years? Nothing? Clearly they are being paid. Remedy did so much more with Alan Wake 2 for just $40 million and one fewer year. They didnt need UE5 either. they engine programmers upgraded the engine to support mesh shaders, and were able to push an extremely high level of fidelity without needing ray tracing which was exclusive to the path tracing implementation by nvidia.

It's like the artists just didnt create any new assets. why? im pretty sure they must have gone to this island and taken some pics and scanned those assets into their game. Maybe that didnt happen because of covid? and they reused everything from the first game? makes no sense because sony has an entire HQ in japan and they couldve just sent someone there to take pics. its shocking how bad the assets and trees look in this game. the engineers seem to have worked on getting RTGI in but maybe that came too late?

The game starts off at a small village at night, and it has some of the worst graphics ive seen since the ps3 era. there is no detail in that village. like 5 NPCs. All with terrible animations. night time lighting feels like something lifted out of medal of honor frontline on PS2. its astounding how far behind it feels compared to AC shadows villages.

I am not a big fan of DS2, Spiderman and Saros, but at least i could see some upgrades there. im not seeing anything here. its shameful. i cannot believe this game didnt win worst graphics of the year. or laziest garbage of the year. everything about this game feels like DLC made by interns. its utterly awful in all aspects. Ghosts 1 starts off so much better with an incredible opening and epic battles. this feels like it was made by two people in their mother's basement.

 

[SlimySnake]

Isnt the cpu in the series s slightly better than hobo ps5?

the cpu would only hold back the framerate in instances where there are a lot of NPCs, destruction and physics. Crimson Desert is basically a locked 60 fps until you hit those massive battles with lots of NPCs.

If Rockstar is ok with that trade off, i think they will just ship the game that will be 60 fps most of the time and drop to mid 30s when shit hits the fan when you go on a shooting spree.

 

[Bitstream]

If you think Sony show this before the PS6 reveal then you're crazy. This will be THE launch game for it. Cross gen obviously.

Why release it for PS6 when they can release it for PS5 and then charge for 3 remasters and remakes over the next 15 years?

 

[Bojji]

the cpu would only hold back the framerate in instances where there are a lot of NPCs, destruction and physics. Crimson Desert is basically a locked 60 fps until you hit those massive battles with lots of NPCs.

If Rockstar is ok with that trade off, i think they will just ship the game that will be 60 fps most of the time and drop to mid 30s when shit hits the fan when you go on a shooting spree.

I think GTA is way more stressful to CPU than CD, constant traffic and tons of NPCs on the screen pretty much all the time

 

[PeteBull]

If you think Sony show this before the PS6 reveal then you're crazy. This will be THE launch game for it. Cross gen obviously.

Yup wouldnt be surprised if we get something like first tlou, aka game pushing ps5/pr0 way beyond what they can do at stable 30, and ps6 vesion with much better IQ/settings in quality mode and obviously proper 60fps mode that looks similar to ps5pr0 30fps mode.

 

[Audiophile]

Why do they release a video advertising the games graphics at 1080p?

Are they fucking stupid?

Reminds me of IMAX releasing poorly handled 1080p 2.35:1 videos on to their YouTube...the whole point is increased resolution and the heightened aspect ratio and the multibillion dollar company can't even muster up a 4K 1.78:1 facsimile.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

I think GTA is way more stressful to CPU than CD, constant traffic and tons of NPCs on the screen pretty much all the time

6 has a 60fps performance mode on Series X, PS5 and Pro (1080/60). Only 1080/30 on Series S. People will be mad but it doesn't (as of last month) use pssr or pssr 2 either. Not sure if fsr or in house ups.

Don't listen to the morons who think 6 is cpu limited enough to only hit 30fps lol. Do you really think R* haven't figured out the secret sauce to 60fps on current gen? (parallelised tasks across your engine sharing tasks between cpu cores and some gpgpu use).

The internet will find out df are just guessing

 

[Bojji]

6 has a 60fps performance mode on Series X, PS5 and Pro (1080/60). Only 1080/30 on Series S. People will be mad but it doesn't (as of last month) use pssr or pssr 2 either. Not sure if fsr or in house ups.

Don't listen to the morons who think 6 is cpu limited enough to only hit 30fps lol. Do you really think R* haven't figured out the secret sauce to 60fps on current gen? (parallelised tasks across your engine sharing tasks between cpu cores and some gpgpu use).

The internet will find out df are just guessing

Rockstar is facing the same tech limitations as every other developer, huge amounts of time and money pumped into the game doesn't mean it will run better than other open world games. Nothing else on the market is even comparable to simulation and graphics quality GTA6 will offer (based on the trailers).

Only other true current gen game with a city setting is Samson and this is just A/AA UE5 title, haha. We don't have current gen Watch Dogs, Sleeping Dogs etc. to compare.

 

[GymWolf]

I think GTA is way more stressful to CPU than CD, constant traffic and tons of NPCs on the screen pretty much all the time

And let's not forget the euphoria engine is heavy on the cpu aswell.

Crimson had none of that.

IF they ship the game with a 60 mode, you can probably say hello to another gimped euphoria like rdr2 that was restored later on pc via mods.

Gta5 was the same, gimped on console, restored on pc.

 

[SlimySnake]

I think GTA is way more stressful to CPU than CD, constant traffic and tons of NPCs on the screen pretty much all the time

Sure but plenty of ps4 era games figured out how to do traffic and NPCs at 30 fps and we played them at 60 fps on PCs with far weaker CPUs than the zen 2 CPUs in consoles.

i guess we dont know just how advanced the npc simulation will be in GTA6. And even if it is, im sure rockstar of all devs can extract every last inch of performance out of a very capable CPU. if they can do it with GPUs, why not CPUs?

DF seems to be way too confident about this and im not sure why. Jaguar CPUs were trash last gen but a lot of studios managed to do a lot with it even last gen. Pretty much all shooters were 60 fps. AC games had plenty of cities with large NPC counts. If CD project and Epic can fix CPU bottlenecks in UE5 then why cant rockstar?

 

[Audiophile]

If GTAVI on base PS5 is hitting a rock solid 30fps then internally it may be closer to 35fps. The Pro's CPU is 10% faster and then if you consider some holistic efficiency gains from the overall system and perhaps offloading some CPU tasks to the more plentiful GPU, both outright or with more aggressive async compute; maybe we may see them wrangle together a decent 40fps/120Hz mode on the Pro. Pair with 2x LFC (game level) + VRR to tidy up any rough edges.

This all assumes GTAVI is heavily CPU-limited which I very much hope is the case, as I wanna see world sim pushed to the limit -- they can scale up performance on next-gen & PC...

Call me naïve, but based on what we're seeing I think it's gonna push things very hard on this front. Those screens, clips, website gifs and trailer scenes seem to be very up front in showing that significant uplift in density, dynamism and life. Whereas the 'lies' of the GTAV trailer/s 13-14yrs back where very fleeting snippets in those presentations. I think they must have a certain degree of confidence in hitting that level or at least ~80% of the way there with the rest being explained away with ideal cinematic framing...otherwise they wouldn't be quite this blatant in showing it all over their marketing material.

 

[SlimySnake]

Only other true current gen game with a city setting is Samson and this is just A/AA UE5 title, haha. We don't have current gen Watch Dogs, Sleeping Dogs etc. to compare.

Spiderman 2:

But overall, yes you are right, we have little to no games set in big cities this generation so what is DF basing this on? last gen hardware? we havent seen anything too crazy from GTA6 in terms of NPCs and traffic simulations. We are hoping they go full next gen, but we dont know what that even looks like. the cpu is powerful enough if they want to utilize it.

 

[Bojji]

Spiderman 2:

But overall, yes you are right, we have little to no games set in big cities this generation so what is DF basing this on? last gen hardware? we havent seen anything too crazy from GTA6 in terms of NPCs and traffic simulations. We are hoping they go full next gen, but we dont know what that even looks like. the cpu is powerful enough if they want to utilize it.

Can you really interact with cars in SM2? I think npcs and traffic are below PS3 GTA games when it comes to AI.

 

[PeteBull]

Come on guys, we all know gta6 wont be 60 on any console:
Dunno how many tens of times we all watched first trailer but im sure plenty enough, just incase:

Npcs are like flies there, swarming around, same way with vehicless, not to mention draw distance and world density/destruction lvl, that will eat those downclocked and downvolted measily zen2 from 2019 archi cpu's like fat kid eats his breakfast, nothing spare will be left

 

[SlimySnake]

Call me naïve, but based on what we're seeing I think it's gonna push things very hard on this front. Those screens, clips, website gifs and trailer scenes seem to be very up front in showing that significant uplift in density, dynamism and life. Whereas the 'lies' of the GTAV trailer/s 13-14yrs back where very fleeting snippets in those presentations. I think they must have a certain degree of confidence in hitting that level or at least ~80% of the way there with the rest being explained away with ideal cinematic framing...otherwise they wouldn't be quite this blatant in showing it all over their marketing material.

GTA5 trailers showed very lively worlds that were pretty much empty when the game came out.

they increased the traffic a bit in the ps4 version and the npc density in the PC version but its still not close to the trailers.



Rockstar is very good at scripting trailers to make worlds feel more alive than they will be. in terms of graphics, you will largely get the same game, but they do cheat when it comes to NPCs and simulation. just watch the last shot of the ps4 version trailer. the highway traffic is no where near this dense. Even in the enhanced edition 12 years later.

Timestamped:


this gif will be the litmus test. my guess is that this was created for the trailer and the main game wont have a beach this full. one couple is jogging, dude looks at his fitbit while their dog runs alongside them. one guy tosses his friend a bear at the same time. one dude is filming his gf for tiktok, another couple is taking selfies in the distance, people flying choppers. all at the same time? scripted as fuck. you might see all of this stuff littered through out the game but not at the same time.

 

[SlimySnake]

Come on guys, we all know gta6 wont be 60 on any console:
Dunno how many tens of times we all watched first trailer but im sure plenty enough, just incase:

Npcs are like flies there, swarming around, same way with vehicless, not to mention draw distance and world density/destruction lvl, that will eat those downclocked and downvolted measily zen2 from 2019 archi cpu's like fat kid eats his breakfast, nothing spare will be left

CPU is not that bad guys. it runs at 3.5 Ghz, has 16 threads, 8 cores, and plenty of IPC gains over jaguar.

just run any current gen game on your pc right now and see how much the cpu is being utilized. no one is using the CPU. DF said the same thing about starfield because it didnt run well on a the zen 2 3600 on PC. Well, Bethesda optimized and shipped a 60 fps mode a year later. if bethesda can do it.....

the main problem will be multithreading all the NPC and traffic simulations and if there is one studio that can do it, its rockstar. remember what that ex-ND/Rockstar artist said. Rockstar has dedicated 30-40 person teams just to handle small animations like picking up ladders and climbing while ND's entire animation team was 30-40 people. rockstar will just throw numbers on it. its 3000 devs. 7 studios all working on one game for 8 years. A lot of them programmers. if they can make rdr2 run on PS4 with those visuals, draw distance and lighting, they can figure out multithreading.

i havent seen any destruction either. so it has to be just NPC routines and traffic. plus whatever CPU cost is on RT which they can always disable for the performance mode like AC shadows did last year. though, even they've figured out how to run RTGI at 60 fps on base consoles with black flag.

 

[BlownUpRich]

this gif will be the litmus test. my guess is that this was created for the trailer and the main game wont have a beach this full. one couple is jogging, dude looks at his fitbit while their dog runs alongside them. one guy tosses his friend a bear at the same time. one dude is filming his gf for tiktok, another couple is taking selfies in the distance, people flying choppers. all at the same time? scripted as fuck. you might see all of this stuff littered through out the game but not at the same time.

The thing about this GIF that keeps me asking is are they using the maximum NPC number count that can be generated by the game during gameplay & then they put all of them in front of this camera shot to give off the impression that the beach is more populated than it actually is?

Are there more NPCs rendered behind this camera shot??

The final game COULD achieve this same result, but they might be more separated most of the time, therefore it won't look as dense as the trailer suggested.

If that's the case then it'd be pretty rare to create this exact scenario to where you see this amount of NPCs populating this amount of space of the beach, even if that came true, I don't think we can hold Rockstar's ahh under any pressure. They "delivered" on the promise I guess…

We'll see. I'm pretty interested.

 

[PeteBull]

It would be nasty downgrade if they made gta6 run in stable 60 on consoles, i dont believe they would want that, i think they will push as much as possible into 30fps mode instead
Obviously zen2 is much stronger than jaguar from ps4 but its not even 3x stronger, otherwise gow ragnarok wouldnt dip below 80s on ps5 even in 120fps mode

75 fricken fps on xgen non openworld high budget AAA, either SSM has bad tech talent or simply that cpu is not even 3x stronger from jaguar one, hell ps4pr0 could reach 40+ fps in perf mode:

 

[ChiefDada]

It would be nasty downgrade if they made gta6 run in stable 60 on consoles, i dont believe they would want that, i think they will push as much as possible into 30fps mode instead
Obviously zen2 is much stronger than jaguar from ps4 but its not even 3x stronger, otherwise gow ragnarok wouldnt dip below 80s on ps5 even in 120fps mode

75 fricken fps on xgen non openworld high budget AAA, either SSM has bad tech talent or simply that cpu is not even 3x stronger from jaguar one, hell ps4pr0 could reach 40+ fps in perf mode:

Ragnarok runs at locked 1440p with no DRS in performance mode and has higher settings than PS4. You are looking at GPU bottleneck here, not CPU.

Console CPU purported weakness is way overblown.

 

[viveks86]

It would be nasty downgrade if they made gta6 run in stable 60 on consoles, i dont believe they would want that, i think they will push as much as possible into 30fps mode instead
Obviously zen2 is much stronger than jaguar from ps4 but its not even 3x stronger, otherwise gow ragnarok wouldnt dip below 80s on ps5 even in 120fps mode

75 fricken fps on xgen non openworld high budget AAA, either SSM has bad tech talent or simply that cpu is not even 3x stronger from jaguar one, hell ps4pr0 could reach 40+ fps in perf mode:

You think Ragnarok is CPU bound just because there is a 120 fps mode and it falls short?? Come on, man. If the scale GPU settings way down (resolution, GPU particles, shading quality, polygon count, ML texture upsampling etc) , I'm sure they can pull off 240 fps in that game.

 

[PeteBull]

Ragnarok runs at locked 1440p with no DRS in performance mode and has higher settings than PS4. You are looking at GPU bottleneck here, not CPU.

Console CPU purported weakness is way overblown.

Yet it dips so badly, if fps was priority and game was indeed gpu bound then they could lower res to 1080p to increase fps, and they didnt do it, so either ssm devs are technically challenged to not bump res down to 1080p or ur claim about gpu bound in that mode is false xD

Here another example, uc4 with unlocked 120hz perf mode

can briefly dip into 70s and 60s

ND is just like ssm technically challenged and opted for 1440p res in 120fps target mode too? Or simply jump from 1080p to 1440p didnt make a difference so they kept it at 1440p and still were 100% time cpu bound anyways

 

[viveks86]

CPU is not that bad guys. it runs at 3.5 Ghz, has 16 threads, 8 cores, and plenty of IPC gains over jaguar.

just run any current gen game on your pc right now and see how much the cpu is being utilized. no one is using the CPU. DF said the same thing about starfield because it didnt run well on a the zen 2 3600 on PC. Well, Bethesda optimized and shipped a 60 fps mode a year later. if bethesda can do it.....

the main problem will be multithreading all the NPC and traffic simulations and if there is one studio that can do it, its rockstar. remember what that ex-ND/Rockstar artist said. Rockstar has dedicated 30-40 person teams just to handle small animations like picking up ladders and climbing while ND's entire animation team was 30-40 people. rockstar will just throw numbers on it. its 3000 devs. 7 studios all working on one game for 8 years. A lot of them programmers. if they can make rdr2 run on PS4 with those visuals, draw distance and lighting, they can figure out multithreading.

i havent seen any destruction either. so it has to be just NPC routines and traffic. plus whatever CPU cost is on RT which they can always disable for the performance mode like AC shadows did last year. though, even they've figured out how to run RTGI at 60 fps on base consoles with black flag.

Even traffic simulations and NPC collision can be moved to the GPU. Euphoria animations will be the kick to the nuts as it used to be heavily CPU bound. But may be they have found ways to move a lot of that to the GPU as well? It's possible. Whether they will pull it off remains to be seen. What I can bet on is a LOT of this shit will move to the GPU next gen after cross gen phase. It's what GPU work graphs are for.

 

[SlimySnake]

It would be nasty downgrade if they made gta6 run in stable 60 on consoles, i dont believe they would want that, i think they will push as much as possible into 30fps mode instead
Obviously zen2 is much stronger than jaguar from ps4 but its not even 3x stronger, otherwise gow ragnarok wouldnt dip below 80s on ps5 even in 120fps mode

75 fricken fps on xgen non openworld high budget AAA, either SSM has bad tech talent or simply that cpu is not even 3x stronger from jaguar one, hell ps4pr0 could reach 40+ fps in perf mode:

not a good comparison. its running the souped up 1440p version of the game at 75 fps. the base ps4 version is not uncapped. its bottlenecked by the GPU. not CPU.

A better comparison would be Uncharted 4 which runs at 1080p 30 fps on the base ps4, and 1080p 120 fps on the PS5. thats 4x. On top of the minor upgrades to settings. Even here its bottlenecked by the gpu since it drops below 120 fps at times, but only because of the GPU load.

Borderlands 3 also ran at 30 fps on the base ps4 and had a 120 fps mode on ps5.

But thats just 4x, and mostly singlethreaded engines. The real power of the zen 2 cpus in these consoles is in multithreading and yes, that requires devs to go in and put extra time and resources into modernizing their engines for modern CPUs, but rockstar should be able to do that after 8 years of dev time.

richard did some benchmarks with zen2 cpus and found almost 7x increase in raw CPU power.

To illustrate, I ran a simple benchmark on both my quad-core Jaguar and Zen 2-based PCs. Cinebench R15 is far from a perfect test, but I chose it because it delivers both single thread and multi-core results and It doesn't rely much on cache or memory bandwidth (aspects our PCs that we can't match with consoles). I benched Jaguar at 1.6GHz to match PS4, and the 2.3GHz clock of Xbox One X, effectively giving us the lowest and highest extremes of the architecture's use in the consoles. As it's a quad-core part and the consoles have eight cores, I doubled up the result to give an (optimistic) insight into how two of them may work together. Zen 2 wouldn't run at 1.6GHz, but 2.3GHz was fine, with a second run based on the mooted 3.2GHz in the Gonzalo leak. I could also run this chip natively as both a quad-core and an octo-core part. The results are quite exciting:

I cant find the article where he did other multithreading testing but the gap was even wider.

https://www.digitalfoundry.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-we-built-a-zen-2-navi-pc-to-next-gen-console-specs

 

[SlimySnake]

Yet it dips so badly, if fps was priority and game was indeed gpu bound then they could lower res to 1080p to increase fps, and they didnt do it, so either ssm devs are technically challenged to not bump res down to 1080p or ur claim about gpu bound in that mode is false xD

Here another example, uc4 with unlocked 120hz perf mode


ND is just like ssm technically challenged and opted for 1440p res in 120fps target mode too? Or simply jump from 1080p to 1440p didnt make a difference so they kept it at 1440p and still were 100% time cpu bound anyways

uncharted 4's ultra performance mode runs at 1080p 120 fps.

this VRR patch allowed them to simply uncap the 1440p 60 fps mode which now runs at 90 fps with drops to 70 fps that are clearly gpu bound.

 

[PeteBull]

You think Ragnarok is CPU bound just because there is a 120 fps mode and it falls short?? Come on, man. If the scale GPU settings way down (resolution, GPU particles, shading quality, polygon count, ML texture upsampling etc) , I'm sure they can pull off 240 fps in that game.

In 120fps mode game is defo cpu bound
Its even cpu bound on ps5pr0 with its much stronger gpu too:



nothing happening on screen, no fast traveling/combat with multiple npcs, nothing, IQ set to taa and favour perf to reduce gpu strain even more, and we talking ps5pr0 here, still cant hold stable 120 even then, on xgen title

 

[RodriGames40]

Many people here forget that the PS5 Zen 2 cores aren't operating solely in a vacuum like the Jaguar cores. The I/O hardware and 3D Tempest cores alone are faster than those old Jaguar, they're being freed from a lot of work when properly utilized.

 

[SlimySnake]

Even traffic simulations and NPC collision can be moved to the GPU. Euphoria animations will be the kick to the nuts as it used to be heavily CPU bound. But may be they have found ways to move a lot of that to the GPU as well? It's possible. Whether they will pull it off remains to be seen. What I can bet on is a LOT of this shit will move to the GPU next gen after cross gen phase. It's what GPU work graphs are for.

Didnt the kingsmakers dev say this as well? they moved a bunch of the traditional NPC tasks to the GPU which lets them have thousands of NPCs on screen at once with full destruction and AI.

I am not a 100% sure if rockstar can figure it out. But the way DF is talking as if they are sure is bizarre. We havent even seen gameplay of this game yet. how do we even know its going to be pushing full on simulations? and even if they are pushing them, why are we certain rockstar can figure out how to multithread or pawn them off to the gpu?

I can list dozens of examples of how devs have been able to get better cpu optimization this gen. We are getting multiple games with hardware lumen at 60 fps this year. Just earlier this year High on Life 2 was running at 720p 60 fps with software lumen. Now Gears, Star Wars Pod Racing, and Halo Remake are all running at 1080p-1440p 60 fps with hardware lumen. Black Flags is running hair physics, rt reflections and rtgi on the pro at 60 fps this year when last year it was on rtgi. even on base consoles you are now getting rtgi in the 60 fps mode. Insomniac in literally months figured out how to run rt reflections in their 60 fps while also DOUBLING the resolution of reflections. 2 years later, they found enough processing power to put reflections on bodies of water as well while still running the game at 60 fps and doubling if not quadrupling the traffic.

we have a lot of faith in Rockstar to push the GPU to produce incredible visuals. why cant we expect them to push the CPU as well?

 

[ChiefDada]

In 120fps mode game is defo cpu bound
Its even cpu bound on ps5pr0 with its much stronger gpu too:

In line with 45% GPU performance boost on Pro so still gpu bound. I don't understand why you're being so stubborn about this?

 

[PeteBull]

uncharted 4's ultra performance mode runs at 1080p 120 fps.

this VRR patch allowed them to simply uncap the 1440p 60 fps mode which now runs at 90 fps with drops to 70 fps that are clearly gpu bound.

Timestamped, dips under 105 fps, thats not 120fps locked here, thats target 120, altho much closer and much more stable vs other examples

And ps5 cpu is downclocked and downvolted vs 3700x, and has less cashe too, its weaker, hence even DF uses 3600x aka 6x12t as ps5 cpu equivalent in their testings, not 3700x.

Again, u guys trying to prove ps5/pr0 cpu is much stronger than ps4's jag, i agree, just by now its pretty weak too, far from omnipotent, and gta6 gonna suck it dry even with 30fps mode, thats all
Not even 1 cpu heavy game on pc holds stable 60 on pr0, not to mention on base ps5(or any console for that matter).
Its ofc my prediction here, gta6 will be heavier than many of the "cpu heavy" games we saw till now so ofc it will have consequences on framerate we get on ps5/pr0 gta6, even in perf mode it wont hold stable 60, hell it might dip below 40 even, and thats good, thats a sign nothing was left on the table here

 

[SlimySnake]

Many people here forget that the PS5 Zen 2 cores aren't operating solely in a vacuum like the Jaguar cores. The I/O hardware and 3D Tempest cores alone are faster than those old Jaguar, they're being freed from a lot of work when properly utilized.

great point. that should free up the CPUs even more.

the power is there if someone wants to tap into it. CD project did an entire presentation on this showing how they can have so many NPCs on screen at 60 fps on a base ps5 while running hardware lumen.

 

[RodriGames40]

great point. that should free up the CPUs even more.

the power is there if someone wants to tap into it. CD project did an entire presentation on this showing how they can have so many NPCs on screen at 60 fps on a base ps5 while running hardware lumen.

We've also seen how little it's all been utilized so far. We have games on PS5 right now that take upwards of 10 seconds to load between sections, which shouldn't be a thing at all with these specs. Regardless of the Zen 2 cores being hella old, they're pushing well over their weight class because of this.

 

[SlimySnake]

Timestamped, dips under 105 fps, thats not 120fps locked here, thats target 120, altho much closer and much more stable vs other examples

And ps5 cpu is downclocked and downvolted vs 3700x, and has less cashe too, its weaker, hence even DF uses 3600x aka 6x12t as ps5 cpu equivalent in their testings, not 3700x.

Again, u guys trying to prove ps5/pr0 cpu is much stronger than ps4's jag, i agree, just by now its pretty weak too, far from omnipotent, and gta6 gonna suck it dry even with 30fps mode, thats all
Not even 1 cpu heavy game on pc holds stable 60 on pr0, not to mention on base ps5(or any console for that matter).
Its ofc my prediction here, gta6 will be heavier than many of the "cpu heavy" games we saw till now so ofc it will have consequences on framerate we get on ps5/pr0 gta6, even in perf mode it wont hold stable 60, hell it might dip below 40 even, and thats good, thats a sign nothing was left on the table here

that could be a gpu drop. just like you saw in the 1440p modes going from 91 to 65. im sure on the pro, it will run at a locked 120 fps because on PCs even with those terrible pc ports, these games easily hit above 120 fps.

Richard explained why he chose those specific benchmarks because they dont rely on memory bandwidth.

To illustrate, I ran a simple benchmark on both my quad-core Jaguar and Zen 2-based PCs. Cinebench R15 is far from a perfect test, but I chose it because it delivers both single thread and multi-core results and It doesn't rely much on cache or memory bandwidth (aspects our PCs that we can't match with consoles)

You are right in that zen 2 by now has aged poorly. But only compared to zen 4, zen 5 and other modern CPUs. Only when it comes to brute forcing mostly single threaded performance in poorly optimized pc games. it doesnt mean consoles still dont have access to 7x more cpu power than before. In the hands of lazy developers like Sucker Punch, id agree with you. But rockstar is rockstar. they made gta5 on ps3. they made rdr2 on ps4. they are nuts.

also, literally the entire industry has moved on to shipping 60 fps games this gen. Boji pointed out how the quarry and gotham knights are the only two games that didnt get a 60 fps mode this generation. you think rockstar will settle for being the only major game that didnt ship with a 60 fps mode?

 

[PeteBull]

In line with 45% GPU performance boost on Pro so still gpu bound. I don't understand why you're being so stubborn about this?

So ssm couldnt reduce res to 1080p for true 120fps mode? Or they decided no point coz it wont change shit, favour perf taa 120hz means ppl wanna go with high res instead of fps?
Plenty modes with 30fps, 40fps and even 60fps, but somehow that 1 mode, which would perfectly show cpu strenght, is still made to be gpu bound, wonder why? SSM must hate high fps enjoyers, only conclusion, to deprive them of locked or close to locked 120fps mode that simple change of resolution would be enough to do.
Guess we will never know, same way ND didnt give 60fps option for ps4 owners for uc4 yet they claimed at first to target 60(glad they didnt, game would be downgraded af on ps4 if they did).

Here true cpu test, hopefully no1 will blame me, its how it is, cpu bottleneck to hell and back:

prolonged dips into 30s(with record breaking 27fps) on 60fps mode, due to cpu bottleneck
Hopefully no sony defenders will kick in and claim devteam is terrible, will they claim rockstart tech team is terrible if it has similar perf to that "60 fps mode" like Crimson Desert?
"But wait, its on base ps5, ps5pr0 with its gpu is 4sure not gpu bound anymore, and it has 10% upclocked cpu too"

Framerate dips below 40fps, in 60fps mode, my claim is coz of that zen2 cpu, thats all, and gta6 will make crimson desert feel like a light warm up in comparision

 

[SlimySnake]

So ssm couldnt reduce res to 1080p for true 120fps mode? Or they decided no point coz it wont change shit, favour perf taa 120hz means ppl wanna go with high res instead of fps?
Plenty modes with 30fps, 40fps and even 60fps, but somehow that 1 mode, which would perfectly show cpu strenght, is still made to be gpu bound, wonder why? SSM must hate high fps enjoyers, only conclusion, to deprive them of locked or close to locked 120fps mode that simple change of resolution would be enough to do.
Guess we will never know, same way ND didnt give 60fps option for ps4 owners for uc4 yet they claimed at first to target 60(glad they didnt, game would be downgraded af on ps4 if they did).

Here true cpu test, hopefully no1 will blame me, its how it is, cpu bottleneck to hell and back:

prolonged dips into 30s(with record breaking 27fps) on 60fps mode, due to cpu bottleneck
Hopefully no sony defenders will kick in and claim devteam is terrible, will they claim rockstart tech team is terrible if it has similar perf to that "60 fps mode" like Crimson Desert?
"But wait, its on base ps5, ps5pr0 with its gpu is 4sure not gpu bound anymore, and it has 10% upclocked cpu too"

Framerate dips below 40fps, in 60fps mode, my claim is coz of that zen2 cpu, thats all, and gta6 will make crimson desert feel like a light warm up in comparision

And yet despite all that, it does have a 60 fps mode!

And thats the point. Rockstar will likely just suck up the inevitable performance drops in busy scenes. its not like GTA5 was a locked 30 fps experience. watch the df framerate test and you will see it consistently drop to 25 fps. rdr2 also dropped below during the big battles towards the end when you attack an oil field with dozens of horses.

 

[GymWolf]

Even the meme game from india looks better than sony games

 

[Bojji]

also, literally the entire industry has moved on to shipping 60 fps games this gen. Boji pointed out how the quarry and gotham knights are the only two games that didnt get a 60 fps mode this generation. you think rockstar will settle for being the only major game that didnt ship with a 60 fps mode?

GK is actually CPU limited so they have that excuse, Quarry devs just wanted high res/high quality experience and I think framerate didn't matter that much in the type of game they offered.

There is also this Ant game that is locked to 30fps on PS5 but runs 60fps on Pro, so another GPU limit.

On the other hand we have BG3 and Crimson Desert that have areas dropping in CPU limited scenarios but devs still decided to leave unlocked framerate (that hits 60fps in Acts1/2 in BG3 and most of the time in CD). Starfield after patch is the same. Plague Tale was both CPU and GPU limited, they have done a lot of optimizations to deliver performance mode (optimization = lower quality).

 

[viveks86]

Didnt the kingsmakers dev say this as well? they moved a bunch of the traditional NPC tasks to the GPU which lets them have thousands of NPCs on screen at once with full destruction and AI.

I am not a 100% sure if rockstar can figure it out. But the way DF is talking as if they are sure is bizarre. We havent even seen gameplay of this game yet. how do we even know its going to be pushing full on simulations? and even if they are pushing them, why are we certain rockstar can figure out how to multithread or pawn them off to the gpu?

I can list dozens of examples of how devs have been able to get better cpu optimization this gen. We are getting multiple games with hardware lumen at 60 fps this year. Just earlier this year High on Life 2 was running at 720p 60 fps with software lumen. Now Gears, Star Wars Pod Racing, and Halo Remake are all running at 1080p-1440p 60 fps with hardware lumen. Black Flags is running hair physics, rt reflections and rtgi on the pro at 60 fps this year when last year it was on rtgi. even on base consoles you are now getting rtgi in the 60 fps mode. Insomniac in literally months figured out how to run rt reflections in their 60 fps while also DOUBLING the resolution of reflections. 2 years later, they found enough processing power to put reflections on bodies of water as well while still running the game at 60 fps and doubling if not quadrupling the traffic.

we have a lot of faith in Rockstar to push the GPU to produce incredible visuals. why cant we expect them to push the CPU as well?

All excellent points. Which is why I'm leaning towards a performance mode being likely as well and went with 60/40. It's just impossible to say anything for sure without knowing where their dev priorities went. Likely everywhere, given the budgets. But I'm sure they still had to make compromises to meet a deadline. Otherwise it would just be like Star Citizen.

 

[GudOlRub]

this gif will be the litmus test. my guess is that this was created for the trailer and the main game wont have a beach this full. one couple is jogging, dude looks at his fitbit while their dog runs alongside them. one guy tosses his friend a bear at the same time. one dude is filming his gf for tiktok, another couple is taking selfies in the distance, people flying choppers. all at the same time? scripted as fuck. you might see all of this stuff littered through out the game but not at the same time.

I won't be that surprised if the beaches in the game are actually that full of people, what I very much doubt is that they'll be as dynamic as we see in the trailer. It's just an absurd amount of individual interactions and I cannot believe it's gameplay until I see it.

you think rockstar will settle for being the only major game that didnt ship with a 60 fps mode?

I don't necessarily disagree with your arguments but you lost me with this one, everyone should know better by now that Rockstar do whatever the fuck they want, a 30fps only game would not be surprising, the game might be too heavy to push for higher framerates, it might not be but they want base consoles to play at 30fps so that they can later sell improved versions of the game on PC and next-gen consoles, the reason doesn't matter really. If they want to do it, they'll do it...

Also we do know that ray tracing in GTA V is quite heavy on the CPU so it does serve as a bit of a warning to temper expectations imo.

 

[GymWolf]

All excellent points. Which is why I'm leaning towards a performance mode being likely as well and went with 60/40. It's just impossible to say anything for sure without knowing where their dev priorities went. Likely everywhere, given the budgets. But I'm sure they still had to make compromises to meet a deadline. Otherwise it would just be like Star Citizen.

The npcs in kingmakers have extremely simple scripts compared to the npcs of gta6 (hopefully), if you saw any video of kingmakers you know what i'm talking about.

Is it really comparable with what rockstar is trying to achieve? read some of their patents for gta6.

And their animations are also uber simple compared to euphoria.

Also, kingmakers is not even out and they have been delaying the early access for a while, for now we just have a couple of trailers, hard to say if they actually are having problems with performances.

 

[Bojji]

I won't be that surprised if the beaches in the game are actually that full of people, what I very much doubt is that they'll be as dynamic as we see in the trailer. It's just an absurd amount of individual interactions and I cannot believe it's gameplay until I see it.

I don't necessarily disagree with your arguments but you lost me with this one, everyone should know better by now that Rockstar do whatever the fuck they want, a 30fps only game would not be surprising, the game might be too heavy to push for higher framerates, it might not be but they want base consoles to play at 30fps so that they can later sell improved versions of the game on PC and next-gen consoles, the reason doesn't matter really. If they want to do it, they'll do it...

Also we do know that ray tracing in GTA V is quite heavy on the CPU so it does serve as a bit of a warning to temper expectations imo.

Dropping to ~50fps on 3600. And this game is just a PS3 game when it comes to assets/Ai quality.

 

[GymWolf]

Can you really interact with cars in SM2? I think npcs and traffic are below PS3 GTA games when it comes to AI.

Yes, infamous 1 has far more interactive cars and npcs.

Sony open worls are curated experiences where everything is controlled.

The less curated and more dynamic open world they made was days gone and it was also the far buggiest and worse performing at launch.

But npcs inside camps were still pretty much untouchable zombies like horizon, spiderman and sushima.

You really cant fucking compare the cpu power you need for this and for gta simulation, they are galaxies away.

 

[GudOlRub]

Dropping to ~50fps on 3600. And this game is just a PS3 game when it comes to assets/Ai quality.

To be fair it's with the Ultra RT presets ON. They can and surely will scale down the ray tracing effects for the consoles. But the fact that this tech and how it's implemented on the RAGE engine is a bit CPU heavy remains.

 

[GudOlRub]

Yes, infamous 1 has far more interactive cars and npcs.

Sony open worls are curated experiences where everything is controlled.

The less curated and more dynamic open world they made was days gone and it was also the far buggiest and worse performing at launch.

But npcs inside camps were still pretty much untouchable zombies like horizon, spiderman and sushima.

You really cant fucking compare the cpu power you need for this and for gta simulation, they are galaxies away.

Especially if the rumours about Greet/Antagonize and NPC routines from RDR2 being back for VI turn out to be true.

Imagine not hundreds, but thousands of NPCs having individual routines within a modern, big-ass city, it would finally accomplish the promise that Cyberpunk made all the way back in 2018.

 

[viveks86]

The npcs in kingmakers have extremely simple scripts compared to the npcs of gta6 (hopefully), if you saw any video of kingmakers you know what i'm talking about.

Is it really comparable with what rockstar is trying to achieve? read some of their patents for gta6.

And their animations are also uber simple compared to euphoria.

Also, kingmakers is not even out and they have been delaying the early access for a while, for now we just have a couple of trailers, hard to say if they actually are having problems with performances.

NPC logic does not have to be tied to framerate. They don't need to make decisions every frame. They could run them at 5 Hz and it would still be sufficient. The NPC does not need to think about their daily routine, purpose and what they should do next or how they should react 60 times per second. Even real humans don't react that fast. Even reflex reactions can run at 10 Hz and be very life like. That's the typical human reaction time to something happening around them. If you shoot them and they take 100 ms to realize it, it's perfectly natural.

Animations are the issue. But again, the animation itself is not a major CPU bottleneck. It's all the simulation that happens in Euphoria that triggers the animation each frame. If they somehow moved collision detection and some of the physics simulations to GPU, several big bottlenecks will be solved.

 

[GymWolf]

Especially if the rumours about Greet/Antagonize and NPC routines from RDR2 being back for VI turn out to be true.

Imagine not hundreds, but thousands of NPCs having individual routines within a modern, big-ass city, it would finally accomplish the promise that Cyberpunk made all the way back in 2018.

I need to be able to cause an incident and everyone should act accordingly.

Watch dogs 2 is very fun in term of chaos you can provoke with the hacking traffick thing, but their interactions are so random or inexistent when it's more than one single interaction between 2 people.

I need a big jump from even rdr2 where sometimes the npcs just weren't up to par with what you were doing.

Npcs routine are probably the thing i'm most curious about in the whole game.

 

[GymWolf]

NPC logic does not have to be tied to framerate. They don't need to make decisions every frame. They could run them at 5 Hz and it would still be sufficient. The NPC does not need to think about their daily routine, purpose and what they should do next or how they should react 60 times per second. Even real humans don't react that fast. Even reflex reactions can run at 10 Hz and be very life like. That's the typical human reaction time to something happening around them. If you shoot them and they take 100 ms to realize it, it's perfectly natural.

Animations are the issue. But again, the animation itself is not a major CPU bottleneck. It's all the simulation that happens in Euphoria that triggers the animation each frame. If they somehow moved collision detection and some of the physics simulations to GPU, several big bottlenecks will be solved.

So having 100 npcs with 2-3 possible scripts and having 100 npcs with 1000 possible scripts is the same in term of performance?

This shit sound pretty advanced to me

Google Search

 

[ChiefDada]

Dropping to ~50fps on 3600. And this game is just a PS3 game when it comes to assets/Ai quality.

I guarantee you it's the data streaming at play here. Alex specifically noted that the 3600 doesn't maintain 60fps when speeding through the world. There isnt much npc simulation going on.

This is exactly what RodriGames40 was alluding to (and i mentioned in another thread) - Rockstar now has the dedicated i/o to offload asset streaming from the CPU. We've seen the same situation in the Spider-Man ports. The more we discuss the more convinced i am that gta 6 will ship with a 60fps mode.

 

[viveks86]

So having 100 npcs with 2-3 possible scripts and having 100 npcs with 1000 possible scripts is the same in term of performance?

Why are you jumping 500x? 30 fps to 60 fps is 2x. We know the game already runs at 30 fps right? So we are only talking about what it takes to handle the same game at 2x the framerate. And like I said, all these NPC scripts that already run at 30 Hz (or lower) can continue running at 30 Hz. Only thing that needs to step up is animations. Even collision detection can stay at 30 Hz and no one would know the difference. The game is expected to be laggy as fuck, in classic R* fashion anyway.

Or were you expecting GTA 6 to be running at 1 fps to maximize NPC routines? It already would run at 30 if there was no 60 fps mode. Use that as the baseline.

 

[Bojji]

I guarantee you it's the data streaming at play here. Alex specifically noted that the 3600 doesn't maintain 60fps when speeding through the world. There isnt much npc simulation going on.

This is exactly what RodriGames40 was alluding to (and i mentioned in another thread) - Rockstar now has the dedicated i/o to offload asset streaming from the CPU. We've seen the same situation in the Spider-Man ports. The more we discuss the more convinced i am that gta 6 will ship with a 60fps mode.

Data streaming in a PS3 game? Without RT 3600 should run this game 120fps+