Bojji
Member
I used the term "historical" about the region and groups of people. Helen was born in Sparta, guess who lived there during the Bronze Age? Not sub Saharan Africans I bet...
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The Odyssey (2026) Trailer
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I used the term "historical" about the region and groups of people. Helen was born in Sparta, guess who lived there during the Bronze Age? Not sub Saharan Africans I bet...
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I truly don't know WTF your problem is.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
And that's fine, you care about that sort of thing. I just really don't, as this isn't a historical account. People adapt stories from all over the world and change the races all the time, I personally don't care if they are really old stories or new ones. It's all the same to me whether Scorsese is adapting a Hong Kong crime story (Infernal Affairs -> The Departed) or Nolan is adapting a story from ancient Greece involving the daughter of a God. The fact it takes place in the same area just doesn't really change that for me as it's all just fiction still.
It's an opinion not an argument
Moondoggy
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
That wasn't my argument (about whether she belongs in this story)... Just that the poster said she's a 2.
I would argue that plenty of people argued against having people of color cast in GoT and LOTR
Bojji
Member
And that's fine, you care about that sort of thing. I just really don't, as this isn't a historical account. People adapt stories from all over the world and change the races all the time, I personally don't care if they are really old stories or new ones. It's all the same to me whether Scorsese is adapting a Hong Kong crime story (Infernal Affairs -> The Departed) or Nolan is adapting a story from ancient Greece involving the daughter of a God. The fact it takes place in the same area just doesn't really change that for me as it's all just fiction still.
It's an opinion not an argument
Scorsese IF isn't taking place in HK with all white cast, isn't it? He changed the setting, same thing about Romeo and Juliet movie from 1996, it's not talking place in Italy few hundreds years ago.
Nolan Odyssey IS taking place in ancient Greece - the real place and Nolan is changing established ethnicity of characters "for fun".
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Yeah I recognize that it's different (mentioned it in my post), I still just don't personally care. It's the quality of the acting I'll care about.
I'm personally more concerned about Matt Damon, Tom Holland and Elliot Page who I find are all pretty mid actors. Zendaya is hit or miss too.
nkarafo
Member
You have Hollywood and the black community literally appropriating my culture and defend the casting not because it's "fantasy" but because they are rewriting my history citing books like "Black Athena" and other garbage propaganda like that. Blackwashing history and other cultures is very important to them and you know that's exactly what they are doing, everyone knows.
Maybe 15 years ago i wouldn't care about this but not today. Because the last 15 years i'm being told i shouldn't appropriate other cultures to the point where even wearing a hat or cooking a meal that has roots to other cultures makes me a racist. And now the same people who set those ridiculous rules are trying to rewrite my history and my culture because now it serves them. Those are the same people defending this casting in various videos and panels and they sure don't care if this fantasy or not. They didn't care when they blackwashed Cleopatra or other historical figures either so being fantasy or not isn't even slightly relevant anymore.
So you coming in this thread acting like you are better than everyone else saying it's "fantasy" and "not a big deal" and "there's no evidence", comes off as really disingenuous to me. Maybe read the discussion before thinking you are adding something to it this late.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I have literally nothing to do with Hollywood, I don't represent them and they don't represent me. Same for anyone whose ever told anyone they can't cook food from different cultures, that has nothing to do with me. Not sure how any of this makes me disingenuous.
I also never acted like I was better than anyone else, you literally just quoted me saying "that's fine" to someone who disagrees. And this is a discussion forum so I'll express whatever opinion I feel like.
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nkarafo
Member
Absolutely and i can respond to your opinion however i like.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Huh? Are black people the ones making the casting decisions?
Is it directed by a black person?
Did Lupita cast herself for the role?
"the black community" has nothing to do with this movie. Its strictly Hollywood. The casting directors, the studio, the producers, and Nolan himself (all white btw) are the ones choosing to cast a black person in said role.
Lupita got a phone call and accepted the role. No one would turn that role down. Your anger should be pointed at hollywood and hollywood only
thefool
Member
He's just rage baiting you mate. He's just the latest troll, anYtHiNG aND aNyONe cAN plAy HeLeN, perhaps a mexican male midget or even a BMW I3.
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Bojji
Member
White people are doing this, but the same white people have nothing to do with Greece and its culture, so yeah: it's cultural appropriation in the modern sense of that word (used by the left).
People seem to forget that cultures (and history) of many European countries are very different to each other, French culture is different to Italian culture, Swedish culture is different than Greek culture and English culture is very different to Ukrainin culture.
Polish people were fighting Mongols, Spain at the time was at war with North African Muslims, not the same at all. Greece has less than 10M people and it seems that their culture is allowed to be bastardized by modern hollywood (and they have nothing to say in this).
nkarafo
Member
And yet Lupita herself still responds to the complaints and tries to brush them off.
She accepted the role, that's great. I would too because i love money as well. But she knows it's perfectly normal for people to complain about this. If my white ass was paid to play the Black Panther, i would enjoy my money in silence instead of trying to make it worse.
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Moondoggy
Member
Don't waste your time, he has no legitimate points to make and just makes definitive statements that he calls his "opinions" when people poke them full of holes and goalpost moves the conversation in hopes you won't keep looking at the poor thought out statments he makes.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
How in the world have I done this?
All I did was:
- Point out The Odyssey is a work of fiction, Helen is not a historical figure
- Say my opinion is that for works of fiction I don't really care about race swapping
Hell you even correctly pointed out that "mythology" is a better term than "fantasy" and I thanked you for the correction.
That's literally it. I've almost entirely just been stating my opinion, you are acting like there's a bunch of facts being disputed here when there aren't.
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Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Well said. Any argument to portray Helen of Troy as a black woman is patently ridiculous and bordering on racist. If someone remade The Color Purple today, a work of fiction, and cast a white woman as Celie you can bet your butt there would be outrage. But its okay when a black woman is race swapped for a white woman in literature. The hypocrisy is the true root of the problem, race swapping seems to be okay in one direction but not the other. And people who defend the double standard just seem ridiculous in my opinion.
What's so damn difficult about respecting the source material when adapting stories?
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Moondoggy
Member
I'm seeing alot of the word "opinion"
Is this an "opinion" also?
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
The point of that sentence is that she wasn't a real person. There's no other point being made there. "She" didn't exist, therefor she can't be black or white or green. That's literally been my only point beaten into the ground, we aren't talking about re-writing history we are talking about adapting a story.
The character in The Odyssey was described as white, nobody here is claiming otherwise.
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Bojji
Member
But this is not at all similar to for example: Stan Lee creating Black Panther character, Wakanda etc.
Odyssey was written 2700-2800 years ago (hundreds of years before Roman Empire) by Homer to represent Greek people, their history and myths.
Troy was a real city, Troyan war was real, Sparta was real, was Helen a real historical person? Who knows, she is way older than Jesus and we aren't even 100% sure that he existed. But it really doesn't matter, you can't just replace characters that were supposed to be Greek with people that don't look like Greeks AT ALL. I personally think this movie should have at least 50% Greek cast but Nolan (that cares so much about "accuracy") doesn't give a shit.
Moondoggy
Member
I'm done talking to you, you seem to have an inability to not dodge your own statements, like we don't have a quote button on this website, no one but you and the other "it's not a big deal" people gives a shit about if she was real, that's not the topic of the discussion, we're speaking about Hollywood's fetish level obsession with casting characters who have a clearly defined appearance in the most intentionally divisive and controversial way. You saying "she wasn't real!!!" has literally no relevance unless you're using it as a way to hand wave this whole thing as "not a big deal". If you think it's no big deal that's fine, that's an actual opinion, stick to that instead of saying "it's just fantasy" or "she wasn't white" then hiding behind those somehow being an opinion(which by definition they aren't) when you get called out on it.
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
It was me joking around.,. "Someone who isn't real can't be black or white."
I'm not hiding behind anything. Not sure how you can't understand what I meant even after I explained it to you.
I'm back to not knowing WTF your deal is dude, chill the fuck out.
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Bojji
Member
She was established in the book that she was Spartan, "but her father was Zeus"...
Jesus father was God, does it mean Jesus was black or something (and not a Jew)?
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Jesus was an Australian with a penchant for fine cigars and the company of unfulfilled women.She was established in the book that she was Spartan, "but her father was Zeus"...
Jesus father was God, does it mean Jesus was black or something (and not a Jew)?
FWIW tolkein intended his work to be a mythic history of northern Europe, so it IS set in a historic Europe just like the odyssey is "historic" Greece. Tolkein is HIGHLY aware of Homer and similar mythic epics and is playing in the same space, drawing on the northern sagas.
So while it is more obviously "made up", the roots of the story are just as grounded in our history as the odyssey or illiad, or even oepidus or any Greek tragedy, or Shakespeare play.
It should matter. Scorsese adapting a story, changing the setting to fit the actors, makes sense. Just like all the versions of Seven Samurai out there. Changing the setting is what gives you the liberty to play with the casting, imho, both are required.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
We'll see whether this movie ends up being good, but despite the online controversy this movie is going to make absolute bank. Tickets selling out everywhere from what I'm seeing.
P:axMagellanic
Member
Getting you to this point is the entire reason, brother. Demoralisation and rage.
P:axMagellanic
Member
You know what you're doing, we know what you're doing. So why are you doing it.
diffusionx
Gold Member
She is possibly a historical figure, because the Epic Cycle is almost certainly based on actual events and actual siege and sacking of Troy.
It is quite possible that there was some princess involved with these wars in such a manner as described in the poem, although obviously the specifics are lost in time.
Yes, the point of these stories is to tell a tale of the people, the PEOPLE, as in people from a specific time and place with a shared culture. Nolan can put whoever he wants in his film, but people are also right to call out his bullshit.
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falconhoof
Member
If anyone happens to go into a book store in the coming weeks I'd be interested to know which translation is getting pushed. I'm presuming that there's going to be the "Read the book, watch the new movie" stand pushing the book.
nkarafo
Member
Hey look, a facial expression. She looks like a different person here.
I was in a newly opened Waterstones just the other week, and they had a variety of editions prominently placed. Like I mentioned upthread, the effect of popular culture is to solidify the original work rather than undermine it, irrespective of the quality of any current treatment. This is especially true in our particular era, where postmodernism reigns and ensures the fate of the deconstructionists is to be deconstructed themselves: Nobody reads the Wilson rewrite and thinks "Now this is The Odyssey!"; They read it and automatically place it, according to their preference, somewhere along the vector spanning from treehouse politics (virtuous for invading and feminising a male space) to dilapidated feminism (vicious by dint of its malcontent). What nobody does is take it as sincere.
This is the fate of all non-traditionalists, incidentally. Progressives always assume their dismantling of the status quo should be the final word... until the next generation arrives and decides that what they find in place is insufficient. This is why you see John Cleese on telly, hand-wringing about the culture downstream of Python; and Tony Blair on telly, hand-wringing about the politics downstream of Blairism. "You weren't supposed to disrupt my disruptions!"
My advice is to sit back and enjoy the show. The Odyssey, the actual The Odyssey, isn't going anywhere.
The Goddamn Mike
Member
Hey, Iliad/Odyssey scholars: What is a good, modern edition without odd cultural bias? I haven't read these since high school, so I can go internet-searching, but am asking with intent to shortcut this process. What I'd like to do, because I find fun in assigning trivial tasks to myself, is: Read "a non-progressive," modern presentation of the story (in the case of Odyssey)...and simultaneously read the supposedly eye-rolling Emily Wilson one. I like to temper exaggeration by experiencing things myself, so this should be a fun experiment. Help me, GAF.
Fitzgerald
The Goddamn Mike
Member
Thanks. Purchased. Will be starting this tomorrow. Any way to get the Wilson one for free (laughs)?
diffusionx
Gold Member
I have Fagles
roosnam1980
Gold Member
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Color blind casting doesn't work in the fantasy worlds of The Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones either. That's one of the reasons Rings of Power sucked.
These shows work best when the producers stay true to the source material and pick non white actors only when the roles require them. That's how you create a believable world. When every town in Middle Earth or Westeros is shown as a multicultural meltingpot, those worlds become generic fantasy mashups that you can't believe in.
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To really put it in a perspective the typical anti-christian/anti-west mind will understand, you gotta have a bunch of islamic symbols (or a grinning Muhammed with a belly full or popcorn), a Buddha statue, Easter Island Statue, totem pole, stuff like that. After all, it's only appropriation/exploitation if it's non-western.
VulcanRaven
Member
AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
The Odyssey | Explore Premium Formats | July 17, 2026
Watch the trailer for The Odyssey adjust to different aspect ratios as you select each film format. In Theaters July 17, 2026.www.odysseymovie.com
All these options should be on the BluRay
Bojji
Member
Too bad she doesn't "work" anymore. She had the looks but still not the ethnicity of Helen, but I guess that would be much better casting choice than what we have now.
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