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[Memati187]

Funny think about this quote is, if you scratch the ps6, it's almost the exact same quote I argue with my dick from time to time again.

So it launches when it launches and then it won't stop, can't stop.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

That's xbox one strategy. And there's no guarantee that BoM will be lower in its 3rd year. It's a bad gamble.

You're tying an entire generation and the next to a low raster, low bandwidth, low power mini device.

Sure. We agree on that.


That's not a dumb thing to do. You already too keen to tie the next generation to a 15 watt APU, you cannot criticize a 20GB PS6 now. RTX 5080 16GB RAM can do proper path tracing with DLSS4.

Series S looks like crap because it's close to the power of PS handheld.


I'm not the one trying it to a 15 watt console.


Whether 20 or 30 wouldn't matter for PS6. They can always render native resolution an acceptable level to fit 20GB and reconstruct to 4K.

The Pro version with 30GB just means higher native resolution to fill that RAM (and/or higher FPS), and gain slightly cleaner image.


Sure. But a proper PS6 has to be affordable and not priced $800. The point.

Your issue here is that yu do not understand what the tech is actually being used for, or more so, what kinda tech you need to achieve certain things.

Lets look at this from the two things the PS6 will address. Lets call this device A and device B

A console capable of doing native 1080p-1440p and upscaling that to 4K plugged into a living room TV. This console would run PS6 games at the highest possible fidelity and will offer the overall best experience. To ensure that this console can keep doing that for the next 10 years and not become outdated, you need minum, 4Ghz CPU, 3 GHz 56 CU GPU, 160-bit bus, 30GB RAM, which means around 26GB available for devs/games, at least 1TB SSD....etc. This is your baseline for the next generation. This baseline will cost the consumer around $600-$800. This is device A.

Now the second thing..

You need a device that can run what device A can run, but instead of targeting lower settings, lower peak framerates, and lower native resolutions. So now you are trying to run games at 360p-540p native and upscale that to 1080p. Preferably, primarily used on a 7-9" handheld screen, but giving the option to plug it into a TV. To do this, you need a much smaller GPU, less bandwidth, less RAM, and when you tie all those things together, it will fit into a handheld form factor. This device will cost consumers anywhere betwen $400-$500. This is device B. (to help you with some context... 360p is 16x less than 1440p, some napkin comparison would tell you that the PS6 handheld could technically be about 8-16times weaker than a home console GPU and still be able to handle PS6 games... if they make the right decisions in the right areas).

This is where you should start making your analysis from.

A "proper" PS6, costs what it costs because that's what it costs to make a proper next-gen console today; you do not cut back on that in such a way that you are releasing an underpowered, incapable machine because you are trying to save a few bucks. The best thing to do is to make two separate products that are in the same family. Hence a home console... and then a handheld. If you do this right, one of them is not holding back the other. You make a product for the people willing to spend no more than $500, and you make a product for the people willing to spend as much as $800.

I am adding this part because I feel I may need to explain everything and trying to avoid that... the right areas are that both PS6 and PS6H are based off the same architecture and have an identical feature set, PS6h will have RAM close to the PS6 in capacity and bandwidth at about a third to half in speed.

It's not about you or any of us here who will pay $1000 for next-gen PS6. It's about selling 100M or at least close to it.

For that higher bandwidth 30GB PS6, they can always offer PS6 Pro down the road. They can afford the Pro to sell for $1000.

The switch has shown that you do not need a 30GB $800 console to sell 100M.

This is the one crucial detail you are ignoring and likely explains why, in all this stuff, you say you talk like the PS6h doesn't exist.

It does, and its for a reason. The PS5 handheld addressing a lower budget, 1080p market, is the sole reason a proper PS6 in the traditional sense can exist in this day and age.

 

[slrbomber]

Delaying for prices to come down would be the most stupid thing Sony, or anyone, can do. And they surely aren't that stupid, they have a front row seat into this current gen, and we have, for the first time in gaming history see prices go up over the course of a gen and not go down. And yet you somehow think that people in a conference room at Sony are considering how waiting for prices to go down on future and even more expensive tech is the right play?

MS was ahead of the curve on this since way back in 2019/2020 when they said that hardware price reductions wouldn't be as easy to achieve going forward anymore, and that was before the AI crisis and Trump.

It would be completely stupid for a company like Sony to gamble on the possibility that prices can come down between now and 2030 as opposed to secure the best deal they can now, eat the cost, and if prices do come down or stay the same, they are fine anyway. I mean.... what if they get more expensive? Can you, with a straight face, after seeing this current gen, say that it is not possible?


if fully adopting a cross-gen strategy, while Sony would still subsidize costs, they likely wouldn't need to do so too aggressively. They can comfortably release a PS6 and not plan on selling more than 10-12M units in its first year. And sell those to the people more likely to pay the most. And when prices start coming down, they can start dropping the price and increasing supply. There is no need to "gain traction right off the bat" when all your games on the PS6 will also be on the PS5.

You don't just cut RAM down to 20GB and call it a day. Those are not the kinda specs you want to fuck with when launching a new console that is supposed to be supported for the next 10-14 years. That kinda decision would hamstring your entire generation before it even starts.

And like I said above, they do not need to get PS6 to mass market point at launch, all they need to do is make sure there are PlayStation consoles in that price range, be that the PS5 or the PS6 handheld, they can (and should) launch PS6 at what would have otherwise been PlayStation Pro pricing, so $750- $800. All will be fine as long as they have a PS6H at around $499 and even better a PS5 at $399/$499 at that time.

So we both agree the prices of memory and storage are inevitably going to come down right?

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

So we both agree the prices of memory and storage are inevitably going to come down right?

I have no idea... but its a commodity, so if you remove whatever is making the price high, then the prices should come down. But we have no idea how long that will take, or even worse... if the price wouldn't go up even more.

What any company with half a brain would do, is make their plans based on the absolute worst-case scenario, which isn't just that prices may stay the same, but that they could even go up. And its thinking like that that probably led Sony to make a handheld and home console.

Mind you, when Sony made that choice, they were only tasked with the realization that node shinks no longer translates to cheaper consoles, and that necessitated them having to have two consoles with drastically different APU sizes so they can have a "cheaper" option. And then the RAM crisis happened... which just further validates that kinda thinking to begin with.

 

[Brucey]

I have no idea... but its a commodity, so if you remove whatever is making the price high, then the prices should come down. But we have no idea how long that will take, or even worse... if the price wouldn't go up even more.

What any company with half a brain would do, is make their plans based on the absolute worst-case scenario, which isn't just that prices may stay the same, but that they could even go up. And its thinking like that that probably led Sony to make a handheld and home console.

Mind you, when Sony made that choice, they were only tasked with the realization that node shinks no longer translates to cheaper consoles, and that necessitated them having to have two consoles with drastically different APU sizes so they can have a "cheaper" option. And then the RAM crisis happened... which just further validates that kinda thinking to begin with.

PlayStation CEO Jim Ryan Believes Consoles Like The Xbox Series S Won't Do Well

PlayStation CEO Jim Ryan seems to think that lower-powered consoles like the Xbox Series S will not do well in the current market.

www.thegamer.com

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

PlayStation CEO Jim Ryan Believes Consoles Like The Xbox Series S Won't Do Well

PlayStation CEO Jim Ryan seems to think that lower-powered consoles like the Xbox Series S will not do well in the current market.

www.thegamer.com

It's not a console, though, at least not in the traditional sense... It's a handheld.

Unless you also believe that devices like the Switch or the Steam Deck can't do well.

And I don't understand why this is so hard for people to understand. The failure of the series S wasn't because MS made a lower-powered Xbox simultaneously with the series X. No... its failure was in how it was designed.

 

[MCH2024]

Devs would much prefer 24GB with bit a lower performance.

Disagree. A 10% perf lose isn't negligible either.

Third-party publishers, perhaps (multiplatform is essentially by the purpose of maximizing profit and they're required to pay platform fees), but I don't see why Sony cannot.

AAA Games take a lot of time and money to make now. 5-8 years and you're spending 200-350M a game.

If a game needs 5-10M to break even, you can't afford to look it to "PS6".

 

[nial]

AAA Games take a lot of time and money to make now. 5-8 years and you're spending 200-350M a game.

If a game needs 5-10M to break even, you can't afford to look it to "PS6".

Yes, you can. Unless you believe that PS6 will never have the install base to sustain it. And no Sony game ever needed more than 5M units to break even.

 

[slrbomber]

I have no idea... but its a commodity, so if you remove whatever is making the price high, then the prices should come down. But we have no idea how long that will take, or even worse... if the price wouldn't go up even more.

What any company with half a brain would do, is make their plans based on the absolute worst-case scenario, which isn't just that prices may stay the same, but that they could even go up. And its thinking like that that probably led Sony to make a handheld and home console.

Mind you, when Sony made that choice, they were only tasked with the realization that node shinks no longer translates to cheaper consoles, and that necessitated them having to have two consoles with drastically different APU sizes so they can have a "cheaper" option. And then the RAM crisis happened... which just further validates that kinda thinking to begin with.

Sony has been working on the handheld much earlier than before the AI boom happened. It was because of the need to enter the growing mobile gaming market, not because they predicted an increase in component prices. The exorbitant increase in console prices is driven by lack of manufacturing capacity from the logic and memory fabs not because of the slow progression in moving to newer nodes. So its a supply constraint not some technological change as you suggest. In any case the cost of dram and storage will eventually go down as it has over the past 40 years. So will the cost of compute as we build better accelerators. So for a console of a lifetime of 8 years they really have two options, 1.) delay the PS6 and still release the same hardware, or 2.) release the PS6 on time in either 2027 or 2028 at a higher price but lower volume production until the memory and compute hoarding slows down. I think they are going to do the latter. I agree with you that prices may go higher, but thats only going to be temporary because its a supply constraint. We're simply in the largest memory upcycle of all time driven by AI demand and compute memory hoarding. The AI demand isnt going anywhere but the compute memory hoarding cant last.

 

[schaft0620]

It isn't just Trump you cretin.

You think that the Dems would have acted any differently to the AI gold-rush ?

Open AI opted out of their RAM deal, there should be a surplus. We are just getting fucked on trade and obviously now the situation with Iran isn't helping.

 

[MCH2024]

Yes, you can. Unless you believe that PS6 will never have the install base to sustain it. And no Sony game ever needed more than 5M units to break even.

It will never have the install base to sustain it.

Imo, PS6 alone won't have half the PS5 sales. 749-899$ is too high.

PS6 Switch is the mainstream one and that's below PS5 | PS5 Pro in Raster considerably.

 

[nial]

It will never have the install base to sustain it.

Imo, PS6 alone won't have half the PS5 sales. 749-899$ is too high.

PS6 Switch is the mainstream one and that's below PS5 | PS5 Pro in Raster considerably.

So you at least expect both combined to land at over 100M? I don't see how that isn't quite the install base.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Sony has been working on the handheld much earlier than before the AI boom happened. It was because of the need to enter the growing mobile gaming market, not because they predicted an increase in component prices. The exorbitant increase in console prices is driven by lack of manufacturing capacity from the logic and memory fabs not because of the slow progression in moving to newer nodes. So its a supply constraint not some technological change as you suggest. In any case the cost of dram and storage will eventually go down as it has over the past 40 years. So will the cost of compute as we build better accelerators. So for a console of a lifetime of 8 years they really have two options, 1.) delay the PS6 and still release the same hardware, or 2.) release the PS6 on time in either 2027 or 2028 at a higher price but lower volume production until the memory and compute hoarding slows down. I think they are going to do the latter. I agree with you that prices may go higher, but thats only going to be temporary because its a supply constraint. We're simply in the largest memory upcycle of all time driven by AI demand and compute memory hoarding. The AI demand isnt going anywhere but the compute memory hoarding cant last.

Never said Sony is making a handheld because they predicted an increase in component prices. Said that they would have noticed that rode shrinks do not translate to price reductions anymore.

If faced with that problem, it would become clear that any well (appropriately) specced console you make will cost a lot, which would have been clear to them with the PS5pro. And that realization would contribute to them feeling a lower-powered device is necessary, and that would be a good contribution as to why they should have a handheld. Cause they could also just make a lower power non-handheld PS6, but if you can make that be a handheld, then that would be even better.

And I agree they are going with option 2... but what I have been trying to say is that the fact they are releasing the handheld too would mean the handheld will always be the lower costing higher volume version, and the home console would be the higher costing lower volume model for pretty much the life of the PS6.

 

[MCH2024]

So you at least expect both combined to land at over 100M? I don't see how that isn't quite the install base

Eventually, yea. But that's deep into Gen 10. longer than it took with PS5. A consequence of console prices rising is that people will start upgrading their consoles less frequently. PS5 Pro 899$ owners aren't about to ditch it.

But above all, PS6 Switch (the actual mainstream console) dev kit is PS5 Low Power Mode. So PS5 | PS5 Pro support for the entirety of Gen 10 is near guaranteed.

Sony is already massaging around a family of devices, etc.

 

[MCH2024]

New Data from Korean customs. The memory price correction is accelerating. Rather than slowing down.

 

[PaintTinJr]

New Data from Korean customs. The memory price correction is accelerating. Rather than slowing down.

But as the fabrication uses lower lithography doesn't the density(GBs) per kg increase? And now we are at the critical slowdown in Moore's law you'd expect to pay disproportionately more for the smaller density gains of a lithography change as progress slows - and demand of that lowest tier to be more supply constrained - so isn't that trend in line with normal lifecycle pricing per kg?

 

[Hector Hall]

I agree it is a great system. It is my main, but I don't think it got it's killer exclusive yet(aside from Astrobot). Do you think they should rush ps6 to the market?

No, but end 27 is not rushing, it's the usual 7 year gap.

Chipset is validated and they cant let MS and Valve a year on their own in the market, so it must release end 27.

Only problem with PS5 issue that many of its releases have been porter to PS4, PC years later.

If you could say Stellar Blade, Gran Turismo 7, Demons Souls, Ghost of Yotei, Spiderman 2, Death Stranding 2, Saros, Astrobot, Helldivers 2, Returnal, GOW Ragnarok, Ratchet and Clank Rift, Horizon Forbidden West, Rise of Ronin, Sackboy, Wolverine, Marathon, MLBA were PS5 only, it would be an amazing roster of exclusive games.

But this has more to do with Ryan/Hulst policy, plus other considerations as MLBA forced to be multi to keep the right, that the software development itself, wich even with the 5 year cycles is mostly on par with PS4.

Then it has third party, with good temporal exclusives and all ultimately released on PS5.

And it even has the Xbox games, it really has it all save Nintendo games of course.

 

[Cumulus]

If you could say Stellar Blade, Gran Turismo 7, Demons Souls, Ghost of Yotei, Spiderman 2, Death Stranding 2, Saros, Astrobot, Helldivers 2, Returnal, GOW Ragnarok, Ratchet and Clank Rift, Horizon Forbidden West, Rise of Ronin, Sackboy, Wolverine, Marathon, MLBA were PS5 only, it would be an amazing roster of exclusive games.

 

[slrbomber]

Never said Sony is making a handheld because they predicted an increase in component prices. Said that they would have noticed that rode shrinks do not translate to price reductions anymore.

If faced with that problem, it would become clear that any well (appropriately) specced console you make will cost a lot, which would have been clear to them with the PS5pro. And that realization would contribute to them feeling a lower-powered device is necessary, and that would be a good contribution as to why they should have a handheld. Cause they could also just make a lower power non-handheld PS6, but if you can make that be a handheld, then that would be even better.

And I agree they are going with option 2... but what I have been trying to say is that the fact they are releasing the handheld too would mean the handheld will always be the lower costing higher volume version, and the home console would be the higher costing lower volume model for pretty much the life of the PS6.

But Sony did cut costs on the PS5 by moving to a newer process they moved from 7nm to iirc 6nm on the PS5 base, you can read about it here. I think Xbox's argument which Sony was well aware of was that cutting costs through newer process nodes was going to become less viable. But it doesnt entirely rule it out holding other factors constant. Its really down to other factors driven by AI boom, compute and memory hoarding and fabs not moving fast enough to ramp up production. I think the AI demand is going to increase but once the new fabs start coming online and Chinese memory and storage manufacturers start competing on the global stage then you'll see a serious drop in prices.

I think one thing I disagree with you on is that the PS6 was designed to be a lower volume model in the first place, maybe relative to the handheld I could agree on that but relative to the home console space, I dont agree. The leaked specs point to a low cost high volume production device where Sony expects the PS6 to sell more than the PS5. They will make a PS6 pro as well which will be the higher end low volume device that you speak of. But I agree relative to the handheld the base PS6 could sell fewer units with the handheld becoming the more popular device. But I dont think the gap would be enormous really. I think the device that will have a serious gap in terms of sales will continue to be the pro models.

 

[slrbomber]

New Data from Korean customs. The memory price correction is accelerating. Rather than slowing down.

This is because of the move to longer term memory for AI systems and higher memory requirements for inference. But its down to supply really, I'm really hoping CXMT can do a deepseek moment and mass produce DDR5 memory, but dont know how realistic that is.

 

[MCH2024]

But as the fabrication uses lower lithography doesn't the density(GBs) per kg increase

The April-to-May jump is purely price hikes the AI side. The memory market is now bimodal.

Hyperscalers are offering to co-fund CAPEX, signing WSAs with SEC LSI and offering to buy EUV machines outright. Their stance: we will buy any quantity of memory at any price.

Meanwhile, consumer hikes are deliberately suppressed. To avoid bankrupting customers, the supplier cartel is offering lower prices in exchange for massive allocation cuts. Because they now control 90% of the supply, they can effortlessly shift capacity into the AI blackhole to hold consumer prices around $8-12/GB. Not too high that demand starts being destroyed but high enough that memory is firmly cemented as a premium product that commands premium margins.

China cannot save us; their memory deficit is worse than ours due to their own astronomical AI demand. And their DUV Memory industry is far less productive than ours.

Only Apple secured meaningful allocation by immediately folding on price to haggle quantity. Everyone else took cuts: Nvidia GeForce lost 15 to 20% of its GDDR, Radeon production is approaching zero, and Sony secured only a "minimum quantity" for the PS5. The resulting hardware price hikes are as much about passing on costs to consumers as they are about reducing demand to avoid shortages.

THERE IS NO GUARANTEE MEMORY PRICES AND AVAILABILITY WILL EVER RETURN TO 2024 LEVELS. NOT IN 2027, 2028 OR EVEN 2035. NOSTALGIA IS NOT A STRATEGY.

The initial PS6 design logic was simple. Because Sony sourced PS5 Pro memory at a cheap $2.9/GB, the PS6 was configured as a hardware value machine based on 2024 pricing. It prioritized a massive quantity of memory that was more than offset by massive cuts to power, cooling, and assembly.

But the party is over. Expensive memory has wiped out those savings, pushing the design overwhelmingly into the red as every layer of the BoM gets hit with price hikes.

Consequently, the PS6 is now a pro console. Sony must accept larger allocation cuts to secure lower memory prices, but they cannot pass those savings on without shorting supply against demand. Lowering the PS6 to 15-20GB just makes it a PS5 Pro Max and breaks games already in development.

On the backdrop of all of this, Sony will not just sit there with their mouths open. They will pull a Nintendo and prioritize software. Generations will overlap, shifting emphasis to the broader "PlayStation" ecosystem rather than just the PS6.

On a positive note, scarcity forces a survival of the fittest. It slaughters products offering poor value per BoM. Wasteful hardware and software must get better or die; A game with prohibitive hardware requirements (doesn't ship on PS5, doesn't work on 8GB PC, etc) will simply flop.

Stop arguing that specific commodity thresholds are required for gaming. What one wants and what one gets are different things. Redirect that focus to developers: does this game truly need that much VRAM? Why are you shipping uncompressed textures and audio?

 

[Tomorrow]

let them take their time.

they could maybe focus on making some PS5 games first before thinking about PS6.

ps5 is expensive as hell now. nobody is gonna bother with PS6 especially if there are no more games again.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yes, you can. Unless you believe that PS6 will never have the install base to sustain it. And no Sony game ever needed more than 5M units to break even.

Well.....not true. Spiderman 2 for PS5 needed 7.2 million units sold at FULL PRICE, to break even.

Eventually, yea. But that's deep into Gen 10. longer than it took with PS5. A consequence of console prices rising is that people will start upgrading their consoles less frequently. PS5 Pro 899$ owners aren't about to ditch it.

But above all, PS6 Switch (the actual mainstream console) dev kit is PS5 Low Power Mode. So PS5 | PS5 Pro support for the entirety of Gen 10 is near guaranteed.

Sony is already massaging around a family of devices, etc.

I can't see any future reality where the PS6 Switch sells more than the true PS6 console. There just can't be ANY reality that has Sony viewing the PS6 Switch handheld as the "TRUE" mainstream device, whereas the PS6 home console is treated like a PRO console at launch. That CAN NOT happen! If it does......it'll be the beginning of the end for PlayStation.

New Data from Korean customs. The memory price correction is accelerating. Rather than slowing down.

JESUS CHRIST........it's getting scary.

The April-to-May jump is purely price hikes the AI side. The memory market is now bimodal.

Hyperscalers are offering to co-fund CAPEX, signing WSAs with SEC LSI and offering to buy EUV machines outright. Their stance: we will buy any quantity of memory at any price.

Meanwhile, consumer hikes are deliberately suppressed. To avoid bankrupting customers, the supplier cartel is offering lower prices in exchange for massive allocation cuts. Because they now control 90% of the supply, they can effortlessly shift capacity into the AI blackhole to hold consumer prices around $8-12/GB. Not too high that demand starts being destroyed but high enough that memory is firmly cemented as a premium product that commands premium margins.

China cannot save us; their memory deficit is worse than ours due to their own astronomical AI demand. And their DUV Memory industry is far less productive than ours.

Only Apple secured meaningful allocation by immediately folding on price to haggle quantity. Everyone else took cuts: Nvidia GeForce lost 15 to 20% of its GDDR, Radeon production is approaching zero, and Sony secured only a "minimum quantity" for the PS5. The resulting hardware price hikes are as much about passing on costs to consumers as they are about reducing demand to avoid shortages.

THERE IS NO GUARANTEE MEMORY PRICES AND AVAILABILITY WILL EVER RETURN TO 2024 LEVELS. NOT IN 2027, 2028 OR EVEN 2035. NOSTALGIA IS NOT A STRATEGY.

The initial PS6 design logic was simple. Because Sony sourced PS5 Pro memory at a cheap $2.9/GB, the PS6 was configured as a hardware value machine based on 2024 pricing. It prioritized a massive quantity of memory that was more than offset by massive cuts to power, cooling, and assembly.

But the party is over. Expensive memory has wiped out those savings, pushing the design overwhelmingly into the red as every layer of the BoM gets hit with price hikes.

Consequently, the PS6 is now a pro console. Sony must accept larger allocation cuts to secure lower memory prices, but they cannot pass those savings on without shorting supply against demand. Lowering the PS6 to 15-20GB just makes it a PS5 Pro Max and breaks games already in development.

On the backdrop of all of this, Sony will not just sit there with their mouths open. They will pull a Nintendo and prioritize software. Generations will overlap, shifting emphasis to the broader "PlayStation" ecosystem rather than just the PS6.

On a positive note, scarcity forces a survival of the fittest. It slaughters products offering poor value per BoM. Wasteful hardware and software must get better or die; A game with prohibitive hardware requirements (doesn't ship on PS5, doesn't work on 8GB PC, etc) will simply flop.

Stop arguing that specific commodity thresholds are required for gaming. What one wants and what one gets are different things. Redirect that focus to developers: does this game truly need that much VRAM? Why are you shipping uncompressed textures and audio?

I hate everything you said in this post and in this thread, but I fear you are speaking the most truth here. Everything in bold will more than likely be 100% true in time, but it pains me so much that you'll probably be right. Starting now (this month specifically), I'm starting to embrace this truth and change what I personally expect with the PS6 generation and in the video game space over the next 5 years. There's a reason as to why The Steam Machine PC (GabeCube) hasn't been released yet or even spoken about.

 

[danklord]

The next generation is handheld PCs and streaming boxes.

 

[viveks86]

But above all, PS6 Switch (the actual mainstream console) dev kit is PS5 Low Power Mode. So PS5 | PS5 Pro support for the entirety of Gen 10 is near guaranteed.

For multiplat games that need to support Switch, Steam machine or mid-low end PCs and other handhelds etc., sure.

I don't think first party exclusives need to stay tethered to current gen for technical reasons. If they build their games entirely dependent on RTGI at the minimum, with no baked lighting, along with neural rendering and AI upscaling, current gen consoles simply can't handle them despite having more raster power than the handheld. Even the pro will choke on the neural rendering part as it has no support for coop vectors. Meanwhile, the handheld would do just fine due to RDNA 5 support for all of that. Scale a bunch of settings and resolution down and the game would run quite well.

They might still have to support cross gen for business/install base reasons, but low power mode for backwards compatibility does not mean that's what exclusives have to be technically designed for in new games. Unless PS6 simply doesn't sell enough to make the jump worth it at any point, cross gen transition for first party would be no different than PS4 to PS5. It will be long, but not the entire life span. And for 3rd party, the next CoD is abandoning PS4 gen and several devs did so years ago. The same patterns will prevail.

The handheld is not going to be the baseline for development nor will it be the "actual mainstream console". Lol. Come on now. The market for a Sony handheld will never match that of its console, regardless of price. It will always be seen as a supplementary device by their core audience. Unless they form new studios that can make games to compete for Nintendo's market, they aren't suddenly switching buyer profiles just so they can have something affordable out there.

 

[ergem]

I can't see any future reality where the PS6 Switch sells more than the true PS6 console. There just can't be ANY reality that has Sony viewing the PS6 Switch handheld as the "TRUE" mainstream device, whereas the PS6 home console is treated like a PRO console at launch. That CAN NOT happen! If it does......it'll be the beginning of the end for PlayStation.

Cut the RAM down to 20GB. The APU is already conservative enough.

Next-gen is all about Path tracing, high fps, and AI reconstruction. All of which are already integrated in the new APU. 20GB RAM wouldn't hurt next-gen knowing that cross-gen games will be the norm.

PS6 Pro down the road for $999 will satisfy those who will want more fps and more native pixel count.

 

[Tg89]

The next generation is handheld PCs and streaming boxes.

handheld pcs are still incredibly niche and no one wants to stream games

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

New Data from Korean customs. The memory price correction is accelerating. Rather than slowing down.

#team2027

 

[simpatico]

handheld pcs are still incredibly niche and no one wants to stream games

One giant shadow drop and viral marketing event away. Streaming is the only hope we have for a graphical next gen in the next decade.

 

[Gravemind]

"Introducing the PS5 super slim pro. Same memory, smaller package. $999.00 on sale this holiday."

 

[Prodyhig]

This came out a few months ago, it's good to bring it up again now:

Sony Group (6758）－ゲーム部門の好調が第3四半期を牽引、今後さらなる上昇余地あり

Sony Group (6758）－ゲーム部門の好調が第3四半期を牽引、今後さらなる上昇余地あり

www.sandstoneinsightsjapan.com

Key Points:-

• The gaming sector also performed well in the third quarter: Sony's third-quarter results are expected to exceed market expectations. Sales of in-house developed titles and third-party games are driving the drive.
• Sensor demand remains strong: Demand for sensors for smartphones continued to be strong in the third quarter. The weak yen supports sales and profits.
• Music growth slows, TV improves: The strong performance of the music sector in the second quarter is not replicated in the third quarter. The performance of the TV and electronics division is expected to exceed expectations.
• PlayStation Lifecycle Extension: Sony sees the PS5's lifecycle extended. The release of PS6 is expected to be later than many expected.

 

[Tg89]

One giant shadow drop and viral marketing event away. Streaming is the only hope we have for a graphical next gen in the next decade.

Guess we have no chance then. Streaming games already sucks for current fidelity, you're dreaming if you want it to be the thing that supports "graphical next gen".

 

[simpatico]

Guess we have no chance then. Streaming games already sucks for current fidelity, you're dreaming if you want it to be the thing that supports "graphical next gen".

I don't want it to be that way. Multiplatform games are stuck targeting Switch 2 and PS6P for the next decade. The only chance we have at a big production going after an exciting tech target is if someone takes their shot at streaming.

 

[Tg89]

I don't want it to be that way. Multiplatform games are stuck targeting Switch 2 and PS6P for the next decade. The only chance we have at a big production going after an exciting tech target is if someone takes their shot at streaming.

Games scale easily. You can easily make a graphical showcase on PC while tuning it to run on less powerful specs. It hasn't been a problem and the whole "cross gen holding the PS5 back" never held any actual weight.

 

[KeplerL2]

#team2027

 

[viveks86]

I don't want it to be that way. Multiplatform games are stuck targeting Switch 2 and PS6P for the next decade. The only chance we have at a big production going after an exciting tech target is if someone takes their shot at streaming.

Firstly, switch 2 and PS6P should not be compared as they are a generation apart in hardware architecture and feature support. Secondly, was path traced RE Requiem held back by Switch 2? This concern is way overblown in the current era of engine scalability.

 

[simpatico]

Firstly, switch 2 and PS6P should not be compared as they are a generation apart in hardware architecture and feature support. Secondly, was path traced RE Requiem held back by Switch 2? This concern is way overblown in the current era of engine scalability.

If PS6 releases next year, publishers will want multiplatform games to release on both systems. And with PS6P coming down the pipe, why wouldn't they. If anything the tech target for next gen is lower today than it was 3 years ago for the current gen.

 

[mckmas8808]

Games scale easily. You can easily make a graphical showcase on PC while tuning it to run on less powerful specs. It hasn't been a problem and the whole "cross gen holding the PS5 back" never held any actual weight.

It did. People like yourself just don't want to admit it.

 

[viveks86]

If anything the tech target for next gen is lower today than it was 3 years ago for the current gen.

So if they make a game at 540p 60 fps with RTGI, PSSR to 1080p along with Ray Regeneration on PS6 handheld, you think that game is even feasible as-is at 60 fps on base PS5? Your "tech target" is fixated on raster performance, which is only relevant for backwards compatibility. The handheld will struggle on any intensive PS5 game that doesn't have a low power mode. But on next gen games designed with next gen features in mind, the handheld will handily outperform base consoles. And if devs start going further down the neural rendering path, they would hit hard ceilings even on the pro. Given the likelihood of pro being discontinued once PS6 is out, the base console and its huge install base could potentially hold back any advancement in tech. But even that is purely hypothetical as most game engines have become so robust at this stuff.

You didn't answer my question about RE Requiem. How did targeting the Switch affect the game's ambitions for the 5090? How was it "held back"?

 

[nial]

This came out a few months ago, it's good to bring it up again now:

Sony Group (6758）－ゲーム部門の好調が第3四半期を牽引、今後さらなる上昇余地あり

Sony Group (6758）－ゲーム部門の好調が第3四半期を牽引、今後さらなる上昇余地あり

www.sandstoneinsightsjapan.com

Key Points:-

• The gaming sector also performed well in the third quarter: Sony's third-quarter results are expected to exceed market expectations. Sales of in-house developed titles and third-party games are driving the drive.
• Sensor demand remains strong: Demand for sensors for smartphones continued to be strong in the third quarter. The weak yen supports sales and profits.
• Music growth slows, TV improves: The strong performance of the music sector in the second quarter is not replicated in the third quarter. The performance of the TV and electronics division is expected to exceed expectations.
• PlayStation Lifecycle Extension: Sony sees the PS5's lifecycle extended. The release of PS6 is expected to be later than many expected.

Several analysts also predicted wrong launch timings for PS5. This means nothing.

 

[simpatico]

So if they make a game at 540p 60 fps with RTGI, PSSR to 1080p along with Ray Regeneration on PS6 handheld, you think that game is even feasible as-is at 60 fps on base PS5? Your "tech target" is fixated on raster performance, which is only relevant for backwards compatibility. The handheld will struggle on any intensive PS5 game that doesn't have a low power mode. But on next gen games designed with next gen features in mind, the handheld will handily outperform base consoles. And if devs start going further down the neural rendering path, they would hit hard ceilings even on the pro. Given the likelihood of pro being discontinued once PS6 is out, the base console and its huge install base could potentially hold back any advancement in tech. But even that is purely hypothetical as most game engines have become so robust at this stuff.

You didn't answer my question about RE Requiem. How did targeting the Switch affect the game's ambitions for the 5090? How was it "held back"?

For my tastes it's been more complex physics and AI models that are missing from the next gen experience. Give me a path traced game with the deformation capabilities of Crysis. CPU is the bottleneck for that. RE9 is still firmly in the PS3 gen when it comes to physics and interactivity.

 

[Tg89]

It did. People like yourself just don't want to admit it.

Nope.

PC has been dealing with this forever and it's never been a problem. Any dev worth their salt can make it work.

 

[viveks86]

For my tastes it's been more complex physics and AI models that are missing from the next gen experience. Give me a path traced game with the deformation capabilities of Crysis. CPU is the bottleneck for that. RE9 is still firmly in the PS3 gen when it comes to physics and interactivity.

So a Capcom developer had big ambitions for in-game physics and then they had to aim lower because of the Switch target? Let's not conflate lack of ambition or desire with technical capability. HL2, UC2, UC3 and 4 have more physics and destruction than most games to date. And those were PS3 and PS4 games. Until AC shadows came by, it was a slim pickings for that stuff in the AAA space. And GPU accelerated physics has been around for a while... The reason we aren't getting much physics is that devs don't even prioritize that in their engines regardless of target hardware. With GPU Work Graphs next gen, it's only a matter of time before entire physics libraries and collision detection are written with 0 reliance on the CPU. When that happens, that would be one more potential reason current gen will hold next gen back as RDNA2 can't do GWG. It's supported only RDNA 3 and up. But will devs bother? That won't be a technical issue as much as a creative one.

 

[simpatico]

So a Capcom developer had big ambitions for in-game physics and then they had to aim lower because of the Switch target? Let's not conflate lack of ambition or desire with technical capability. HL2, UC2, UC3 and 4 have more physics and destruction than most games to date. And those were PS3 and PS4 games. Until AC shadows came by, it was a slim pickings for that stuff in the AAA space. And GPU accelerated physics has been around for a while... The reason we aren't getting much physics is that devs don't even prioritize that in their engines regardless of target hardware. With GPU work graphs next gen, it's only a matter of time before entire physics libraries and collision detection are written with 0 reliance on the CPU. When that happens, that would be one more potential reason current gen will hold next gen back as RDNA2 can't do GWG. It's supported only RDNA 3 and up. But will devs bother? That won't be a technical question as much as a creative one.

I hope so at least because the 1-2 punch of S2 and PS6P makes the next decade of tech targets look a lot like the previous decade. Maybe even lower with a bigger emphasis on handhelds and wattage. My pipe dream is Sony using streaming as a way to set themselves apart from anything Xbox could dream of doing with local processing on a Helix. Sony would be wise to do a hybrid approach where a lot of the games are just "regular" PS6 games, but this is the one path they have at blowing the doors off the competition graphically without crushing their customer base. Naughty Dog making Uncharted 5 and only ever having to worry about it running on a 5090 or that general line of thinking. I think Sony are the only ones in a position with the motive and resources to do it too.

 

[TGO]

I thought it said "We have not yet decided on PS6 launch titles"
Which would be believable for modern Sony even if it's coming out this year, in fact I'd be surprised if it even has any that's not Remasters.
But I clearly read it wrong

 

[Garda]

Don't touch the original PS6 specs, rather, offer the X/S variants like Xbox did this gen. PS6 S can be something in between the PS6 handheld and the full-on PS6.

 

[viveks86]

I hope so at least because the 1-2 punch of S2 and PS6P makes the next decade of tech targets look a lot like the previous decade. Maybe even lower with a bigger emphasis on handhelds and wattage. My pipe dream is Sony using streaming as a way to set themselves apart from anything Xbox could dream of doing with local processing on a Helix. Sony would be wise to do a hybrid approach where a lot of the games are just "regular" PS6 games, but this is the one path they have at blowing the doors off the competition graphically without crushing their customer base. Naughty Dog making Uncharted 5 and only ever having to worry about it running on a 5090 or that general line of thinking. I think Sony are the only ones in a position with the motive and resources to do it too.

I'd actually welcome that approach with it just playing PS5 games on BC and streaming PS6 games. But given all the hardware features, it would be a total waste of RT and AI silicon. The CPU is certainly the biggest concern, especially given the TDP. Hopefully halving the framerate is all it takes for most games to work. I wouldn't be surprised if 30 fps stops being the floor, for this reason. If all PS6 games run 48 fps or above for quality mode (with 30 fps cap just for TVs that don't support it), then scaling down to handheld should be easy. Half the framerate target to 24 fps and then adjust a few settings to recover 25% so it can hit 30 again.

 

[saintjules]

Yo, some of you guys in here need to use paragraph formats lol.

 

[Zathalus]

THERE IS NO GUARANTEE MEMORY PRICES AND AVAILABILITY WILL EVER RETURN TO 2024 LEVELS. NOT IN 2027, 2028 OR EVEN 2035. NOSTALGIA IS NOT A STRATEGY.

Logic dictates it will. Memory hasn't become significantly more expensive to produce overnight, the reason pricing has shot through the roof is that it is supplied constrained. Fix that and prices come down. Despite what hyperscalers and AI evangelists would have you believe, AI is not going to scale into infinity.

And supply will eventually be fixed, be it via ramping production, scaling back on demand, increased competition, regulatory pressure, or a combination, it will price correct.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Either a delay or multiple priced and power sku's.
Is what I gather from what he's saying.