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[MLiD] Project Helix is 25 Percent Faster Than PS6

AMD is catching up to nvidia, not the other way around.

Their starting point is this Path Tracing performance on RDNA4:

amd-radeon-rx-9070-xt-review-ign-v0-ya2u3bhdq0ne1.jpeg


According to Kepler they at least achieved parity (probably beaten Blackwell a bit). But you still have much smaller GPU vs. 5090...
Apparently it jumped over 50 series. Im sure 60 series will jump over RDNA5. Thats how competition works...
 
Steam makes device PC it seems. Interesting. So, the only differentiator is if steam runs on it?

I dont think that flies for me.
If Steam is blocked, it means multiple other things are blocked. it means you can only run programs that MS pre-approved. That means it is not a PC. No freedom means not a PC.
 
If Steam is blocked, it means multiple other things are blocked. it means you can only run programs that MS pre-approved. That means it is not a PC. No freedom means not a PC.

What happens if it launches an app environment of steam, like a windows store app? same for Epic etc? is that then a pc?
 
What would be Microsoft's reason for justification to keep Steam off Helix?
It may not even be their choice. Valve is under no requirement to bring Steam to Helix. Unless it is completely open and does not require Valve to jump through hoops, it is not a guarantee. As DenchDeckard DenchDeckard said above. What if it is like a Windows store app? Valve probably passes in that situation.
 
WtF u on? Sure DEFINITELY CAN have different RT and raster performance levels! GPU has parts that are for raster, RT, and AI works and arrange it different ratios!

Seriously, you have some fucked up notions of how current GPUs work.
There are no "GPU parts for raster, RT and AI".
You obviously don't know anything about GPUs or how graphics work.
Doesn't surprise me that you refer to MLID as some sort of "source" at the same time.
 
It may not even be their choice. Valve is under no requirement to bring Steam to Helix. Unless it is completely open and does not require Valve to jump through hoops, it is not a guarantee. As DenchDeckard DenchDeckard said above. What if it is like a Windows store app? Valve probably passes in that situation.

it probably is gonna be limited to Microsoft Store installs, but there's no good reason for Valve not to be on there.

the only major launchers missing from the Microsoft Store are Steam and EA. Ubisoft, GoG, and Epic are already there, EA will probably follow soon (they already have some integration with the Xbox App due to Gamepass).

I know Valve is a bit weird about this kinda stuff, but I don't see the issue with having your storefront available as easily as possible.
 
Just to remember since rdna2 is half real tflops. So PS6 is around 20 real tflops or 5070 and Xbox 25 tflops around a 4080 or 5070 ti.
 
WtF u on? Sure DEFINITELY CAN have different RT and raster performance levels! GPU has parts that are for raster, RT, and AI works and arrange it different ratios!

Seriously, you have some fucked up notions of how current GPUs work.
I've explained this before but MLID is misinterpreting AMD docs wrt performance. He thinks if a slide says "Orion 10x RT perf vs Oberon" it means you can look at PS5 running a game at 30 FPS, multiply that by 10x and compare with 5090 doing let's say 200 FPS and conclude PS6 > 5090.
 
it probably is gonna be limited to Microsoft Store installs, but there's no good reason for Valve not to be on there.
We don't know that. It was pointed out in a recent MLID video that Valve has passed before on a separate Windows store app. It could be as simple as not wanting to support a separate app or as complicated as some of the legal agreements. I have no idea but Valve does well enough that they do not need a Windows store app on a console.
 
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GPU has parts that are for raster, RT, and AI works and arrange it different ratios!
It's not nearly as discrete (and I realise NVidia marketing particularly distorted reality on this).
Compute execution units are shared (there's no separate pools for compute/shading and AI, or RT for that matter), and while you have specific accelerator ASICs for parts of RT pipeline - all that does is remove bottlenecks 'outside' of compute - and compute still happens in all workloads.
And as mentioned by the other poster - raster fixed function elements also play into this - your RT still has to sample textures etc. (so 'raster' operations) to synthesize the picture, and perform de-noising which is either a shader or an AI/compute workload, further making it all depend on each other.
 
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What happens if it launches an app environment of steam, like a windows store app? same for Epic etc? is that then a pc?
Then it is not a PC. And if you don't understand the problem then you don't understand PC gaming. A PC is something you OWN, and you control. You put what you want on the PC. You run what you want on the PC. Any less and it is not a PC. That means no freedom for mods. That means needing MS okay for everything. It means the machine is doomed to PC gamers.
 
We don't know that. It was pointed out in a recent MLID video that Valve has passed before on a separate Windows store app. It could be as simple as not wanting to support a separate app or as complicated as some of the legal agreements. I have no idea but Valve does well enough that they do not need a Windows store app on a console.

there wouldn't be a separate app.
the Microsoft Store is just that... a store. you can get almost anything on there at this point.

every major web browser, most major game launchers, VLC, even freaking iTunes!
Valve is the odd one out here in this case.
 
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If Valve passes on putting a Helix app, that will be easy 10-15 million customers for EGS etc.

Could be the beginning of their downfall, if people started building their libraries elsewhere.
 
Then it is not a PC. And if you don't understand the problem then you don't understand PC gaming. A PC is something you OWN, and you control. You put what you want on the PC. You run what you want on the PC. Any less and it is not a PC. That means no freedom for mods. That means needing MS okay for everything. It means the machine is doomed to PC gamers.

I think we are literally saying the same thing. The messaging has been this is a console that MAY run steam etc but a lot of people are saying its a PC. If it is a PC it will let people install their own OS and run whatever they want on it. It can't be a PC but operate like a console. For me, if I cant install a different OS on it etc it is not a PC and is a console.

So, I think we are in agreement?
 
Absolutely, yes. If they do it right. Theyve sold 30 million series consoles or more. Of course they can sell 10 to 15 million of this. They could sell 5 to 10 million in the US alone, lifetime.
They've struggled to sell 30 million with a minimum entry price as low as $150 for series s (Verizon subscriber sale) and $350 for series X (general availability), and supply problems for ps5 for first 18-24 months. With helix at $1000 or more....no way they'll have the same amount of sales.
 
They've struggled to sell 30 million with a minimum entry price as low as $150 for series s (Verizon subscriber sale) and $350 for series X (general availability), and supply problems for ps5 for first 18-24 months. With helix at $1000 or more....no way they'll have the same amount of sales.

So, you don't think they will sell 10 - 15 million of them either then?
 
I think it depends on the price. MS just bumped up pricing on the Surface line. So could be looking at $1500+ for Helix.


Everything is going up right now though. You should see pricing from OEMs in the UK starting from the middle of May. I have seen stuff that is going to make peoples eyes water when they see it, and jaws hit the floor.

Did anyone here think a prebuilt system from an OEM could hit £1,799 - £1,899 for a PC with an RTX 5060?

That spec would have been £999 6 months ago. Shit is not slowing down, its getting worse.

Thanks, Scam Altman!
 
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I would assume money. Everyone would buy on Steam, making less money for MS.

But then, why would 10s of millions of people buy a Helix box if they can't play their games from Steam on it? That's where most of the PC gamers are on planet Earth.

It may not even be their choice. Valve is under no requirement to bring Steam to Helix. Unless it is completely open and does not require Valve to jump through hoops, it is not a guarantee. As DenchDeckard DenchDeckard said above. What if it is like a Windows store app? Valve probably passes in that situation.

Then that's kill anything MS wants to do with Helix then. At this point, it'll be better if MS paid Valve to have Steam on Helix.

Absolutely, yes. If they do it right. Theyve sold 30 million series consoles or more. Of course they can sell 10 to 15 million of this. They could sell 5 to 10 million in the US alone, lifetime.

Have you considered what the price will be for Helix? $1,200 - $1,500 means it can't reach 10 million units. And why do you think only 50% of Helix's sales will come from America? Currently the Xbox Series consoles are at 56% sold in America and 44% the rest of the world (25% Europe, 2% Japan, 17% everywhere else combined).

I'd assume Helix sales at least 60% in America, but maybe more when you consider how MS abandoned the Series console in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa.
 
But then, why would 10s of millions of people buy a Helix box if they can't play their games from Steam on it? That's where most of the PC gamers are on planet Earth.



Then that's kill anything MS wants to do with Helix then. At this point, it'll be better if MS paid Valve to have Steam on Helix.



Have you considered what the price will be for Helix? $1,200 - $1,500 means it can't reach 10 million units. And why do you think only 50% of Helix's sales will come from America? Currently the Xbox Series consoles are at 56% sold in America and 44% the rest of the world (25% Europe, 2% Japan, 17% everywhere else combined).

I'd assume Helix sales at least 60% in America, but maybe more when you consider how MS abandoned the Series console in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa.
The fact that you estimate msft will only sell less than 10 million units should be leading you to ask more questions. Aka where do they see this industry going and what is their prediction for windows gaming.
Lastly why is Sony launching against this thing.

Would be absolutely hilarious if all rdna5 gpus are Xbox bc and windows gaming is officially renamed as Xbox directly in the os.
 
But then, why would 10s of millions of people buy a Helix box if they can't play their games from Steam on it? That's where most of the PC gamers are on planet Earth.



Then that's kill anything MS wants to do with Helix then. At this point, it'll be better if MS paid Valve to have Steam on Helix.



Have you considered what the price will be for Helix? $1,200 - $1,500 means it can't reach 10 million units. And why do you think only 50% of Helix's sales will come from America? Currently the Xbox Series consoles are at 56% sold in America and 44% the rest of the world (25% Europe, 2% Japan, 17% everywhere else combined).

I'd assume Helix sales at least 60% in America, but maybe more when you consider how MS abandoned the Series console in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa.

I think a helix at 1200 or 1500 could definitely sell 10 million if the rumours are true and an equivalent gaming pc is 2000 to 2500 and that helix plays your steam catalogue etc. absolutely.

If it's literally like an iPhone pro max but for the console world, absolutely.

We are not talking like a pro console we are talking about a genuinely powerful system across cpu GPU here from launch day.
 
The fact that you estimate msft will only sell less than 10 million units should be leading you to ask more questions. Aka where do they see this industry going and what is their prediction for windows gaming.
Lastly why is Sony launching against this thing.

Would be absolutely hilarious if all rdna5 gpus are Xbox bc and windows gaming is officially renamed as Xbox directly in the os.

- I don't think MS knows where they see the gaming industry going. They are just treading water, trying not to sink. Hence, why they fired their last CEO and hired a new one with no expirence.
- Is Sony launching against Helix? What do you mean? Do you mean, as in why is Sony launching in the same year as Helix?
 
I think a helix at 1200 or 1500 could definitely sell 10 million if the rumours are true and an equivalent gaming pc is 2000 to 2500 and that helix plays your steam catalogue etc. absolutely.

If it's literally like an iPhone pro max but for the console world, absolutely.

We are not talking like a pro console we are talking about a genuinely powerful system across cpu GPU here from launch day.

I was considering yall's point that, Steam may not be on Helix. In that case I don't think it'll sell 10 million units. Do you think it could sell 10m units at $1,200 - $1,500 "WITHOUT" Steam support?
 
I was considering yall's point that, Steam may not be on Helix. In that case I don't think it'll sell 10 million units. Do you think it could sell 10m units at $1,200 - $1,500 "WITHOUT" Steam support?
Its price is high only if PS6 undercuts it massively. Doesn't seem to be the case with how PS5 pro is priced now.

Also, xbox will likely have a cheaper model that will be similar to PS5 pro in performance. Will likely undercut ps6.
 
Then that's kill anything MS wants to do with Helix then. At this point, it'll be better if MS paid Valve to have Steam on Helix.

I think most people understand MS is trying to compete with Valve again. TBH, I am not sure what Valve gains by adding their store to a MS console. Sales? Are they really going to increase their sales by a large margin on a niche console? There is probably a lot of PC crossover anyway. I don't think they really risk losing any of their current sales if they skip Helix. If Valve is concerned about MS new strategy, they might be better off skipping it before they let the MS try to push developers and customers into a windows console environment/store. I don't know anything. I am just thinking out loud.
 
Its price is high only if PS6 undercuts it massively. Doesn't seem to be the case with how PS5 pro is priced now.

Also, xbox will likely have a cheaper model that will be similar to PS5 pro in performance. Will likely undercut ps6.
You're saying $1200-$1500 will only seem high depending on PS6 pricing?

Trust me. This speculated pricing is HIGH.
 
I think a helix at 1200 or 1500 could definitely sell 10 million if the rumours are true and an equivalent gaming pc is 2000 to 2500 and that helix plays your steam catalogue etc. absolutely.

If it's literally like an iPhone pro max but for the console world, absolutely.

We are not talking like a pro console we are talking about a genuinely powerful system across cpu GPU here from launch day.

Free MP is the bigger deal than Steam itself.
I mean no one want destroy the others hope but seriously if MS has failed until now why they should succeed with a pc tricked as an xbox?
 
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Can't really compare the pricing until we know the plans for each on MP paywall imo. Because if one drops it and the other doesn't then that is a factor to consider.
 
Whatever the PS6 costs the Helix won't be so much more expensive that it seems like a radically different proposition.
Difference is no one wants to buy a Xbox right now, and even when they run promos to make it much cheaper than the competition, no one is buying. They try and release a big exclusive like Starfield, and has negligible effect on sales. The stock just isn't shifting.

To now hear it could potentially launch this high specced & priced console, without Steam, just doesn't seem like it's worth the effort.
 
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